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Talk:Harvey Milk: Difference between revisions

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incorrect use of "assassination": unhelpful to distinguish sharply between assassination and murder
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:I don't think that playing the "dictionary definition" game is really that productive to begin with, but if we're going to do that, I submit that the definition we should use is Wikipedia's own definition of "assassination" -- which, as already noted, explicitly includes killings that are motivated by personal grudges and other non-political motives. There's no shortage of murders that are described as "assassination" even without a political motive. In some cases -- [[Olof Palme]] and [[Park Chung-hee]] to name just two -- we use the word "assassination" even when no one can agree on whether the motive was political or personal. So it seems to me that demanding a narrowly tailored definition of "assassination" is both unhelpful and inappropriate, and that the right thing for Wikipedia to do here is to reflect the conventional wisdom, which is that Harvey Milk was assassinated. [[User:Twp|—Tim Pierce]] ([[User talk:Twp|talk]]) 18:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
:I don't think that playing the "dictionary definition" game is really that productive to begin with, but if we're going to do that, I submit that the definition we should use is Wikipedia's own definition of "assassination" -- which, as already noted, explicitly includes killings that are motivated by personal grudges and other non-political motives. There's no shortage of murders that are described as "assassination" even without a political motive. In some cases -- [[Olof Palme]] and [[Park Chung-hee]] to name just two -- we use the word "assassination" even when no one can agree on whether the motive was political or personal. So it seems to me that demanding a narrowly tailored definition of "assassination" is both unhelpful and inappropriate, and that the right thing for Wikipedia to do here is to reflect the conventional wisdom, which is that Harvey Milk was assassinated. [[User:Twp|—Tim Pierce]] ([[User talk:Twp|talk]]) 18:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

:I would rather see citations than proclamations. I would also ask that no one make these changes until some [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] is reached. Right now there is no consensus on a change. Generally [[Wikipedia:TITLE#Considering_title_changes|WP policies]] indicate that changes like this need better justification than "some think this is a bad wording" - something more to the effect of "here is proof that this is factually inaccurate" would be better. So far that has not been submitted - beyond a non-cited dictionary definition and film critic's essay. Wiktionary's definition says "political motives" - not "gain or payment". I think you could logically argue that even if a broader Wikipedia definition of assassination did not apply - there is plenty of reason to believe that the assassinations were politically motivated. Implying that both Milk and Moscone were killed while working in a political role in a government building by a fellow politician over a political disagreement (White staying in office or not) seems to be ignoring the word "political" way too many times. Additionally the definitions offered by [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/assassination The American Heritage Dictionary], [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assassinate Merriam-Webster], [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/assassinate Random House], or [http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/assassinate Oxford] do not match the one you have provided. Can you please cite your source? Generally these sources provide for broader definition, or take about political motives and not gains - if that is brought up at all. Most support the definition used by [[assassination|Wikipedia's article]]. I previously cited several news and academic sources indicating that assassination is applicable. I have not been able to find any [[WP:SOURCE|reliable sources]] indicating that assassination is an invalid term to use. Again, please cite your reasons for wanting this change beyond your personal opinion. --[[User:Varnent|Varnent]] ([[User talk:Varnent|talk]])<sup>([[m:User:Varnent/COI|COI]])</sup> 23:10, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:10, 14 October 2013

Featured articleHarvey Milk is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 27, 2008.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 28, 2008Good article nomineeListed
October 7, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
October 28, 2008Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

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Tributes

One of San Francisco's historic streetcars was dedicated to Harvey Milk on Tuesday, October 28, 2008, same day as the film's premier at the Castro Theater. PCC streetcar no. 1051 is painted in the 1970s livery used by the San Francisco Municipal Railway and appeared briefly in the film Milk. Here are links with additional and supporting information. JamisonWieser 15:37, 30 April 2009

statement error in article......

Harvey Milk is not the first opening gay person elected to public office in the USA. That was Elaine Noble in 1974. See her article. I believe the error was generated by the film: "Milk".

Grape Kool-Aid

If anyone goes looking for the grape Kool-Aid references (such as I did), here are two good ones: Shilts, p. 292 and Bellefontaine, p. 92. Not sure if it's worth including in the article (though it could use the sources—FAC must have been lax back then), but there you have it. Also, here's the best photo of his ashes. Would be cool to include if someone wants to ask Dan Nicoletta, the photographer, for permission. czar · · 04:12, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


incorrect use of "assassination"

Just because the killer was a politician doesn't make a murder an assassination. Just because the victim was a politician doesn't make a murder an assassination. If both the killer and the victim are politicians, this alone doesn't make a murder an assassination. For it to be an assassination, the killing needs to be premeditated and for political reasons. This murder was neither. Therefore I have changed the word to "killing" as this is factual, whereas "assassination" is very much a point of view and not everyone's opinion, whereas it is still factual. --Rebroad (talk) 20:57, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

this article also makes the same point. He was killed due to a personal vendetta, and it was therefore not an assassination. --Rebroad (talk) 21:06, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the line between assassination and murder is as clear-cut as that. Our own article on "assassination" defines it as the murder of a prominent person or political figure by a surprise attack, usually for payment or political reasons ... it is an act that may be done for financial gain, to avenge a grievance, from a desire to acquire fame or notoriety. When John Hinckley, Jr. shot Ronald Reagan in 1981, he did it because he thought it would impress Jodie Foster, but people don't usually hesitate to describe it as an "attempted assassination". I see your point, but I think there's a reasonable case to be made here that "assassination" is the proper term. If others concur, I'll edit it back. —Tim Pierce (talk) 14:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think a case could certainly be made that the incident is most often referred to as an assassination (sometimes interchangeably with murder).[1][2][3] I would support reverting it back to assassination as it fits the literal definition and matches how it is referenced elsewhere. This change would also require many changes to the Moscone–Milk assassinations article as well. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 18:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, some definitions of assassination do seem to equate it to murder, but some do not. If you go by your argument that the two terms are synonymous, then why would you object to the use of the other term being used? Whereas if you go with my argument that assassination is a specific type of murder, then you should agree with me that it's too specific, opinion-influenced and disputed, whereas murder is not. Given that avoiding the term assassination fulfills both arguments, then the logical solution is to go with that term. Murder/killing, not assassination. The only reason to advocate assassination is to promote an agenda as the connotations of the word assassination are significant. --Rebroad (talk) 21:38, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then by your argument - using murder over assassination is also pushing an agenda - which does seem to be the case. Assassination is clearly the term used by historians and academic writings. Unless you can show documentation showing that assassination is inappropriate - beyond your own personal opinion and that of a film critic - please do not engage in a revert war. You proposed a change to the article without documentation (again - something by academics or known historians and not film critics would be helpful) - it is on you and not Twp to explain the change. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 00:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Assassination is a subset of murder, therefore my argument is that given assassination is disputed and murder is not (since they are both murder), it makes sense to use murder. Please refer to the dictionary definition of assassination, which is a murder for political gain or payment. This murder was neither as it was a personal vendetta. Most articles online that analyse the meaning of assassination in relation to Milk also agree on this. --Rebroad (talk) 16:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that playing the "dictionary definition" game is really that productive to begin with, but if we're going to do that, I submit that the definition we should use is Wikipedia's own definition of "assassination" -- which, as already noted, explicitly includes killings that are motivated by personal grudges and other non-political motives. There's no shortage of murders that are described as "assassination" even without a political motive. In some cases -- Olof Palme and Park Chung-hee to name just two -- we use the word "assassination" even when no one can agree on whether the motive was political or personal. So it seems to me that demanding a narrowly tailored definition of "assassination" is both unhelpful and inappropriate, and that the right thing for Wikipedia to do here is to reflect the conventional wisdom, which is that Harvey Milk was assassinated. —Tim Pierce (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would rather see citations than proclamations. I would also ask that no one make these changes until some consensus is reached. Right now there is no consensus on a change. Generally WP policies indicate that changes like this need better justification than "some think this is a bad wording" - something more to the effect of "here is proof that this is factually inaccurate" would be better. So far that has not been submitted - beyond a non-cited dictionary definition and film critic's essay. Wiktionary's definition says "political motives" - not "gain or payment". I think you could logically argue that even if a broader Wikipedia definition of assassination did not apply - there is plenty of reason to believe that the assassinations were politically motivated. Implying that both Milk and Moscone were killed while working in a political role in a government building by a fellow politician over a political disagreement (White staying in office or not) seems to be ignoring the word "political" way too many times. Additionally the definitions offered by The American Heritage Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, Random House, or Oxford do not match the one you have provided. Can you please cite your source? Generally these sources provide for broader definition, or take about political motives and not gains - if that is brought up at all. Most support the definition used by Wikipedia's article. I previously cited several news and academic sources indicating that assassination is applicable. I have not been able to find any reliable sources indicating that assassination is an invalid term to use. Again, please cite your reasons for wanting this change beyond your personal opinion. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 23:10, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]