Caffeine is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 16, 2006.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 22, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted August 20, 2006 Peer review Reviewed September 7, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted December 9, 2011 Featured article review Demoted Current status: Former featured article

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Material that was previously in a footnote -- specifically, historical information about the controversy over who had priority in the isolation of caffeine (Runge vs. Robiquet vs. Pelletier and Caventou) --has been moved into the body of the article in its "Synthesis and Properties" section.

Frankly, although I was the author of that footnote, I truly believe that it does not belong in the body of the article. It concerns a historical detail that would not interest the general reader; similarly the evidence presented -- the quotes in foreign languages with translations -- would also not be of interest to the general reader. I would therefore suggest that a "Notes" or "Footnotes" section be created for the the article and that my research be moved there.

Cwkmail (talk) 22:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the following blurb:

Caffeine is also added to agar, which partially inhibits the growth of Saccharomyces cerevisiae by inhibiting cyclic AMP phosphodiesterase.^[1]

For a couple of reasons: 1. It didn't add anything useful the paragraph it was attached to, and seemed out-of-place. 2. The research article cited as a reference only showed that caffeine inhibited the growth of a particular mutant strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, and thus I don't think it qualifies as a bit of data that is relevant and/or useful for the average seeker-of-information about caffeine.

If someone wants to start an article on nat3 and nat3 knockout yeast, the deleted blurb would be relevant. Blahdenoma (talk) 01:06, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Featured articles are to be supported by high quality evidence typically in the form of review articles. This article is not and thus is at risk of losing its FA status. Not sure how many wish to work up upgrading but I will have a go... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let me note that this article is actively maintained by a number of editors. It is only partly medical-related and therefore should only partly be governed by MEDRS. I'm certainly not claiming that nothing here is capable of improvement -- but I believe that most of the content of this article has been pretty thoroughly hashed over at one time or another. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 02:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All the health claims that this article contains should be supported by review articles which at this point in time they are not. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or is it just me? From my earliest age, my parents would give me bottles with coffee in them, because caffeine made me tired. Without it i had (and still have) this tendency to stay awake ridiculous amounts of time before realising it -- which tends to only happen when my eyes are tired enough to dizzy everything.

I mean..I know why everyone says they drink this stuff. But its really hard for me to believe, because its *extremely* tiring even in moderate amounts for me. Whats up with that? x_x 74.128.56.194 (talk) 00:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to add that when i was little my parents somtimes would give me maté in the bottle to help me settle down to sleep. Also, for some reason i hate coffee, yet i love Coke... --TiagoTiago (talk) 21:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personal anecdotes are not really useful here, I'm afraid. This page is for discussion of ways to improve the article, and any improvements must be justified by published literature. Looie496 (talk) 01:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Some people seem to be immune to caffeine, which the article does not mention. It has no effect on me, and I've run into other people who say the same thing. I don't know if there is any published material on this. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 20:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article does mention potential resistance to caffeine's effects, which (in large degrees) implies de facto "immunity." Your body metabolizes caffeine, but the effects are likely so minor that you don't notice them. That doesn't mean that caffeine has no effect, simply that you haven't ingested a large enough dose. It's unlikely that caffeine was responsible for OP's fatigue, given what we know of it's biochemical function. Biochemgeek (talk) 11:46, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is a stumulant because it causes a higher production of dopamine. Low levels of dopamine is linked to hyperactivity and restlessness. My theory is that if your body, as a child, had trouble regulating dopamine (like a body that is not fully developed may do) then it might have led to your hyperactivity. When given small amounts of caffiene, one could assume your hyperactivity may have been suppressed, allowing you to do what healthy kids normally do... sleep nearly half the day away. This would have the opposite effect on you as your body began to fully mature. 68.62.160.93 (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just added a segment about caffeine's effects on ADHD. The claims are well-sourced and verifiable, and I think it will answer a lot of the questions people have posted in the talk page. --SuperEditor (talk) 18:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "Mechanism of action" section contains File:Caffeine and adenosine.svg to illustrate the structural relationship between these two chemicals. However, the adenine rings are not oriented the same way. Should one of those structures be flipped vertically so that the 6-membered rings have their two nitrogen atoms and an exocyclic electronegative atom in the same positions? DMacks (talk) 01:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Chocolate does not have caffeine but has another substance called Theobromine which is similar to caffeine. www.xocoatl.org/caffeine.htm message.snopes.com › Urban Legends › Food digg.com/news/story/Chocolate_Does_Not_Contain_Caffeine_2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.163.26 (talk) 23:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, our wikipedia article provides multiple references including published specific analysis, supporting that there is caffeine present. Can't be an "urban rumor" if there is actual scientific evidence (however, it's known to be low and variable level). DMacks (talk) 01:34, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is so much primary research here when there are lots of review articles to base the content on. Definitely in need of an update.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

===In children===

Excessive intake of caffeine does not result in stunted growth.^{[unable 1]} Children are found to experience the same effects from caffeine as adults.

However, subsidiary beverages that contain caffeine, such as energy drinks, most of which contain high amounts of caffeine, have been banned in many schools throughout the world, due to other adverse effects having been observed in prolonged consumption of caffeine.^{[unable 2]} In one study, caffeinated cola has been linked to hyperactivity in children.^{[unable 3]}

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:02, 23 September 2011 (UTC) [reply]

This extensive article does not comment on it at all [1] I did find a book that commented on it and thus added a line.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That huge chembox at the top really messes up the layout of the article. What do you think about moving it, or at least a lot of the details, into the body of the article? Looie496 (talk) 18:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the chembox documentation suggests that the right solution to situations like this is to create a subpage called caffeine (data page), and move some of the information into it. Looie496 (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What you did here is certainly not an improvement of the article. While some information might be removed and put on a data page, this is certainly not the case for central information such as the CAS RN, density or the pK_a. Further more, there is certainly no need to hurry that you cannot wait for answers. I restored the chembox for the discussion. --Leyo 07:27, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No information was moved. The box was just split with the chemical details moved to that section. What we ended up with is duplication of a bunch of content in the article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:10, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please show me other examples, where the chembox is split in a similar way? --Leyo 08:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I am undecided if this is what we should do. Having so much detail in the lead though and this pushing down the images that are in the sections of the body of the article is poor formating. What we do not need however is two copies of all the chemical content in the article.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The latter was not intended. I seem to have lost track due to the numerous small edits in the history. --Leyo 09:10, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let me say that it's clear to me that what I did is imperfect. I have learned in my time editing Wikipedia that when facing a problem, the first necessity is to do something, otherwise discussion ends with nothing happening. But I am absolutely open to alternative solutions. What I am not really open to is having that ridiculously large chembox sit at the top of the article indefinitely. The bulk of what is there is not critical information for the average reader; it does not belong at the top of the article. Looie496 (talk) 13:29, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why not put a {{drugbox}} at the top? (see example to the right) Boghog (talk) 14:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is a great idea. More clinical info. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:31, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent -- the perfect solution! Looie496 (talk) 14:50, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Something has to be done about the Chemistry section -- the graphics are overflowing the section massively. Would it make sense to create a subarticle titled perhaps Chemistry of caffeine, and move most of the graphics there, as well as some technical information? Looie496 (talk) 16:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't we agree that we won't split an infobox into two infoboxes some time back? --Rifleman 82 (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That issue no longer exists -- the article now has a drugbox at the top and a chembox in the Chemistry section. Looie496 (talk) 17:11, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The text in the chemistry section is relatively short and in my opinion it should be expanded somewhat. This in part would solve the problem of the graphics overflow. Caffeine after all is a chemical. A basic requirement for featured article status is comprehensiveness and there is no way an article about caffeine can be comprehensive without a chemistry section. The other part of the problem is that we still have a very large chembox. I also agree that we should not split the infoboxes. The ultimately the best solution in my mind is to merge the {{drugbox}} into the {{chembox}} as proposed here and make many of the sections optionally collapsible. If we had such a box with many of the chemistry specific sections collapsed, the merged box would not overwhelm the lead and the chemistry section would be much less cluttered. Boghog (talk) 17:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with Boghog, that the chemistry section is actually quite short compared with the drug aspects of caffeine. I don't see how it might be helpful to split the chemistry off into a separate article. If anything needs to be hidden, it would be the relatively long list of identifiers (but this is not peculiar to this compound). I'd actually trim some of the comments about caffeine - mp, sol., pKb, as they are already in the chembox and they are not really surprising, and they don't deserve much elaboration. Let me see what I can find about it, thought I imagine that involves adding an image of a purely chemical synthesis. Perhaps a section history - how its structure was illucidated, maybe involving comparing a chemical synthesized sample vs. natural product extract. That said, I don't recall that this synthesis is of particular importance though, because decaffeination of coffee probably is the major source of the purified compound.

As a chemical, I think this section (analogous to structure & properties, and synthesis/biosynthesis) should be higher up in the article. It makes no sense of talking about what it does until you define what it is, and how you can make it/get it. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 18:17, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should regard the order of sections as set in stone -- but we should bear in mind that this is a very popular article, with over 5000 page views per day, and the great majority of readers are probably more interested in the drug properties than the chemical properties. Looie496 (talk) 18:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My personal preference is the same as Rifleman, chemistry should be moved up, but Looie does have a valid point. Most readers are probably more interested in drugs than chemicals. Concerning the chemistry text, I added what I thought were the most fundamental properties of practical interest, water solubility and pKa. Melting point and solubility in ethanol are less important. I could be wrong, but I don't think the first structure determination was confirmed by independent chemical synthesis, the chemical synthesis appears to have come much later. I was prompted to put it in based on the pre-existing text which mentioned the chemical synthesis starting from dimethylurea and malonic acid which seemed a little odd. Digging around confirmed that the pre-existing text is reasonable and I thought the best way to support the existing text was to add a synthesis schematic. Furthermore I thought the chemical synthesis offers an interesting contrast to the biosynthesis. Boghog (talk) 18:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here is what appears to be the first chemical synthesis of caffeine: Fischer, Emil (1895). "Neue Synthese der Harnsäure und ihrer Methylderivate". Berichte der Deutschen Chemischen Gesellschaft. 28 (3): 2473–2480. doi:10.1002/cber.18950280329. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Boghog (talk) 19:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. How's your German? I looked through the article briefly, and I think I know what he did. However, I didn't notice him claiming the first synthesis of caffeine, or of caffeine even being the focus of the article. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 20:47, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My German is rusty, but I will try to slog through it. The main purpose of the article was to prove the structures various xanthine derivatives including caffeine, but not specifically to provide a synthesis of caffeine. Furthermore Fischer did not claim to be the first. Nevertheless according to the Merck Index this does appear to be the first reported synthesis of caffeine. Boghog (talk) 03:46, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where'd the picture of dry anhydrous caffeine go? We usually have pictures of the pure compound in the box, preferably anhydrous. Pictures of solutions, or other crude extracts are left in the text. The picture at the top is a cup of coffee, not a sample of caffeine. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It got lost in the shuffle between different types of infoboxes. Let me note that it's a pretty sucky picture. Looie496 (talk) 20:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go put it back. It's functional; shows the compound as what it is, a white crystalline solid. It's not grainy, though the lighting is not the best. That's better than many pictures on WP. It's probably unrealistic to expect pictures of all compounds to be professionally photographed. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 20:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I created a prototype {{chembox Drug‎}} template, merged (almost) all the data from the two infoboxes into this single template and placed it at the top. In its default collapsed state, it is about as long as the original drugbox, but it contains essential all of the information that was contained in the chembox + drugbox templates. Please note that to create this template, I merged code from the chembox into the drugbox, but long term the merger should be done in the other direction. Hence I would like to stress that this template was created only to illustrate what a merged template might look like and to help this article pass the featured article review. Boghog (talk) 21:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's certainly a move in the right direction. Looie496 (talk) 22:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your efforts. A few comments: CAS should link out to Commons Chemistry, which is an authoritative source for CAS numbers; NIH is not an authoritative source. The formula should not be hidden. There may be many identifiers, but this one should not be hidden. I think the physical appearance should not be hidden either. Identifiers should be collapsible, though, because it is a list of numbers which don't mean much to someone who doesn't know what to do with it. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 00:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback. I have changed the CAS link from NIH to ACS. For now I have uncollapsed the chemical properties section that contains the formula. Perhaps there should be a new "vital stats" section containing the IUPAC name, formula, MW, and physical appearance, but I am not sure what to call it. I am also not sure I agree that the identifier section should collapsed since it contains a large number of useful externals links where the reader can find more detailed information about caffeine. Boghog (talk) 06:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think having a "vital stats" section would be helpful. We had that in the old chembox, but it was taken out of the new chembox perhaps on the assumption that the properties and identifiers sections would not be collapsed. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 15:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure why physical effects where split off from health effects? And we ended up with two sections on psychology? Physical effects are health effects.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I split it off because it doesn't seem to make sense to me to refer to the basic stimulating properties of caffeine -- the main reasons why people use it -- as health effects. When I drink my morning cup of coffee, I don't do it for my health. Looie496 (talk) 06:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any effect on the health is a "Health effect". I drink coffee all day long for the stimulating properties and view this as a health effect :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My impression is that yours is an unconventional view. If somebody asks me "does caffeine affect my health?", and I say, "yes, it makes me more alert", I think I'll usually get a puzzled look or a laugh. I fear that putting things that way will impair our ability to communicate with ordinary readers, who won't understand what we are saying. Any third opinions on this point? Looie496 (talk) 14:52, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And mine is that your view is unconventional :-) There is that psychological phenomena where people think that their own view is the majority... I guess we could ask for greater input. I prefer less main heading to more as it keeps the TOC short. BTW I think this article has really improved over the last week. My concerns regarding sourcing of the health care content have been addressed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now that we have updated this page. The subpage "health effects of caffeine" is little more than a poorly referenced subpage using both a great deal of primary research and old studies. Wondering if we should merge it here? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposed as long as material isn't merged in a way that makes it more difficult for this article to pass the FAR. Looie496 (talk) 14:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. EEG test would require you to cease any intake of caffeine, for a some days at least(though the half life is much less than that). Electrical Activities are different of the two brains. atleast when you see for yourself the activities with alpha and theta waves. ;) Rmraihan (talk) 14:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article is missing a discussion of the interactions between caffeine and alcohol. There is plenty of literature on the topic, but surprisingly it is difficult to come up with good recent review papers. The best sources I can find are this Neuropsychopharmacology paper and this review of energy drinks. The first is a primary source per MEDRS, but has a pretty nice review in its introduction, and the journal is very reputable. Any thoughts on alternatives? Looie496 (talk) 22:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that any conversation should be extensive. A reference to alcohol under Health Effects would be pertinent, and should link to a separate page (Caffeine and Alcohol should be an independent article, given the extensive literature). Surprisingly, I can't seem to find much on this either. Biochemgeek ([User talk:Biochemgeek|talk]) 11:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Human are animals thus we state in other animals per WP:MEDMOS Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:16, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, especially because here we appear to be making the distinction between general effects that apply to humans and maybe also animals vs those that are specific or different for non-humans. It was even previously discussed here a few years ago (Talk:Caffeine/Archive 4#Anthropocentrism) and definitely did not have consensus to remove it (as an involved, I don't want to make an analysis of whether consensus actually explicitly supported keeping it). DMacks (talk) 01:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The basic definition of animal includes "any such living thing other than a human being." and "Any non-human animal, esp. a land-living mammal", those are dictionary definitions, but another definition is "A living organism characterized by voluntary movement". I never considered humans part of the animal kingdom, which is why I thought it wasn't in the right context, putting humans in the same category as animals, which seems odd calling it a distinction from a different point of view. Anyway, just thought I'd comment. Editor182 (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is always a challenge because any way of handling it feels wrong to a large group of readers, but we've developed a standard way of handling it, and we might as well stick to it. Looie496 (talk) 03:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have always considered humans a type of animal. This is how they are seen medically anyway. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

'Dogs' needs to be removed as an example of an animal in which caffeine has 'considerable toxicity,' not only because there is little evidence in general to back up this claim, but also because the article that statement links to in its citation is not credible (full of hearsay and pseudoscience). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alecmwatson (talk • contribs) 05:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the article has no citations and seems unscientific, this r/ask-science question mentions this pdf which seems to be a better bet. Since this document references other sources it may be better to reference those directly. Kosievdmerwe (talk) 22:33, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"While safe in humans (...) toxic to various animals (...)". The source about dogs cites 150mg per kg body weight as lethal for dogs, which corresponds to a toxic dose for a 70 kg human as high as 10.5 gramms. This 10.5g is pretty much exactly the LD50 dose for humans. Caffeine seems to be as toxic for humans as it is for dogs. Animals suffer at smaller doses just because of their lower body weight, but the sentence conveys the impression of a physiological difference between humans and dogs, which can't be endorsed by their identical lethal doses per kg. Just like claiming "water is safe for humans but lethal for mice", because the harmless amount of 2 liters of water per day for a human would kill every mouse by overstraining her digestive system if not make it explode. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.12.100.137 (talk) 04:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We discuss some of the religious issues but what about the rest of the society and cultural significance?--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:40, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All the important details are covered in the main article and to a better extent. We have subarticles that deal with the individual topics such as intoxication. Thus I propose we merge what is good here.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:03, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why does this article have nothing on caffeine being a cAMP diphosdiesterase inhibitor, leading to increasing levels of cAMP leading to increased neurotransmitter release and neuronal function? That is just as important as blocking adenosine receptors IMO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.164.87.219 (talk) 23:06, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you cite any literature to back that up? Looie496 (talk) 23:14, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I added about inhibition of phosphodiesterase; I have not expanded to say about the knock on effect on cAMP and neurotransmitters. That is for someone else to do. :) Or maybe I will do it when I have the time,,, sometime. :-P--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 16:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Add a controversy section--88.111.116.197 (talk) 21:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which controversy do you refer too?--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have read that it may or may not stunt growth> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bacon467 (talk • contribs) 03:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am the boyfriend of the widow of Gerhard Fischer who was the grandson of Hermann Emil Fischer. Overall I found the Caffeine article to be well done, but I found the references to Emil Fischer and Herman Emil Fischer confusing as they are the same person.

I don't know what the Wikipedia conventions are for hypertext URL's but it would be less confusing if you changed both the references to "Emil Fischer" as the father had a son Hermann who was a chemist of some note (headed the Chem dept at UC Berkeley, ...).

I don't get into Wikipedia discussions on a regular basis so if their is to be any further communication with me, use my email: steve at Jasik.com 71.139.177.204 (talk) 07:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC) Dec 18,2011 11.44PM PST[reply]

one of the two links was obviously wrong - I changed that, but left the link to "Hermann Emil Fischer" - in German, the reference is always to "Emil Fischer". --Plehn (talk) 18:48, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One area I would be curious to see addressed is the regulation of caffeine. I suspect that USA's FDA considers caffeine sold as a CNS stimulant as an over the counter (non-prescription) drug. Similarly if included as an ingredient in nutritional supplements it would fall under USA's Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 regulation. From an international perspective I'm also curious if regulations exist that are encyclopedic in value. 67.167.106.3 (talk) 14:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The best study showed 10% absorption in after 4 hours of continuous exposure. Any mammal which possesses a stratum comeum will not absorb caffeine anywhere near as readily as a PRODUCT ADVERTISEMENT would suggest. I found it so bizarre to see the claim in the routes section, I would have been remissed not to check whether I or my beloved Wiki had broken free from reality. When I saw the Ars Technica link, I was pretty sure I was right. However, being especially nerdy, I went ahead and tried to find any ACTUAL studies, which brought me to Erowid, which has the same fact density as many parts of Wikipedia. What does that really say? Anyhum, that brings me to:

Robert L. Bronaugh, Raymond F. Stewart, Elaine R Congdon, and Albert L. Giles, Jr., "Methods of in Vitro Percutaneous Absorption Studies. I. Comparison with in Vivo Results," Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology 62: 474-480 (1982) by way of Leslie K. L. Au, M. Sc., Toxicologist at HEER, in a letter addressed to Mr. Sydney Ross Singer, Medical Anthropologist, on the subject of poisoning through the skin after the latter took to a scare from interpreting then recent studies about amphibian absorption of potentially toxic chemicals in their aquatic environment. The actual study itself seems to remain un-webbified, but considering the technical information involved and the person what got the smack down put upon them actually published it themselves, all before the shock soap bs, I feel confident citing both.

173.242.89.38 (talk) 04:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC) EAZen, never logged in, but just as annoying[reply]

I generally suck at chemistry, but I am curious about something. Caffeine is C8 H10 N4 02. but in the image of the chemical structure, I only count 3 carbons and 9 hydrogens. I fully expect someone who understands chemistry to sigh exasperatedly at this question, but I'm just really curious: what gives? ~ PHDrillSergeant...§ 19:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See skeletal structure. DMacks (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! I see! Of course I still suck at chemistry but at least I know I'm not going crazy or losing the ability to count! ~ PHDrillSergeant...§ 14:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Under Chemical properties and biosynthesis, the melting point of "Pure anhydrous caffeine is a white colorless powder with a melting point of 227–228 °C", but in the data table its range is nearer to 235 C. Am I misunderstanding something here, or is this an error? Aeti (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Caffeine was first isolated from coffee in 1820 by the German chemist Friedlieb Ferdinand Runge" (7 History Section)

or

"In 1819, the German chemist Friedlieb Ferdinand Runge isolated relatively pure caffeine for the first time" (7.1 Discovery Section) ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1003:1004:D267:E5FF:FEF1:F5FF (talk) 16:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the diagram structure of the caffeine is wrong, it is missing a hydrogen on the furthest left carbon (not illustrated as a carbon, but as a double bond and a single bond) this is a chemically wrong structure as the carbon is clearly missing a bond, it must have 4 not three as is shown. this structure does not correlate with the other information given in the page such as the chemicat formula (C8H10N4O2) and the IUPAC name. I would be appreciative if this was changed so as to avoid any confusion. 92.29.95.27 (talk) 12:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The chemical structure is correct - see skeletal formula for an explanation for why not all atoms are drawn explicitly. However, the diagram that was in the article is somewhat confusing because it is a mix of chemical drawing styles, so I have switched it with one that is drawn in a consistent style. Hopefully this will avoid this type of confusion in the future. ChemNerd (talk) 13:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your explanation does not directly address the question. Both structures are correctly drawn. The original structure has only one implicit hydrogen atom whereas the new structure, implicit hydrogen atoms are used consistently throughout. The disadvantage of the new structure is that it is inconsistent with other structure diagrams elsewhere in this article. Boghog (talk) 15:06, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• 
  original
• 
  new

Hmmm, I hadn't considered consistency with other diagrams in the article. I think it would be greatly preferable if all the drawings used a style in which all the hydrogen and carbon atoms were depicted consistently (as in File:Caffeine-2D-skeletal.svg, "new"), but it's probably not worth the effort to redraw them all. So if you would like to revert to the original, I won't object. ChemNerd (talk) 16:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Caffeine is toxic at sufficiently high doses. Ordinary consumption can have low health risks, even when carried on for years"

This doesn't read correctly. If the point is to emphasise that the risk is low then it should read, for example, "Ordinary consumption has low health risks, even when carried on for years". If the point is to emphasise that some risk does exist then it should read, for example, "Ordinary consumption can have low health risks, especially when carried on for years". At the moment it is an inconsistent mixture of the two.

Reference [153] currently points to the wrong url, should be updated to http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-81-89/section-89-the-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng 2001:4479:3A06:83DA:D0C6:D602:DA44:8325 (talk) 07:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The current URL supports the quote in the article. RudolfRed (talk) 02:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. I couldn't find the quote on the linked page when I looked for it. Thanks for answering. 2001:4479:3A06:83DA:D0C6:D602:DA44:8325 (talk) 08:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.229.144 (talk) [reply]

Verbose exchange moved to Talk:Rmraihan/Islam_and_Caffeine. Your concerns are welcome here, but the dialog needs to be conducted with and at less volume.

The main point I would emphasize is that you can't make demands of other Wikipedia editors based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge of Sharia law. That amounts to an appeal to authority (relative expertise of Wikipedia contributors) and is not permitted under the Wikipedia editing guidelines. If you have sources for your claims, please post them here so we can have a calm discussion of their stature and significance.

From what I can find, many Muslims not only consume coffee, but also consume chocolate (which is definitely a stimulant in the mind of most food chemists). Many food chemists regard sucrose (table sugar) as a stimulant. In my own opinion, there's no hard and fast way to divide the world of food into stimulants and non-stimulants. Food is chemistry. The closer we look, the more compounds we find in ordinary food, many of which could prove to have stimulatory effects in larger doses. Many people consider MSG to be a nervous system stimulant, and this occurs naturally in a wide range of foods. The main difference with caffeine is that people commonly consume caffeine for the purpose of enjoying its stimulatory effects while few engage in stimulatory thought-crime in their pursuit of MSG. When it becomes less about the food or the chemistry and more about attitude it's far too subjective to debate here.

What could be added to this article are statements to the effect that under some Muslim traditions (which?) caffeine is construed as a stimulant (along with the related compounds theobromine and theophylline?) and that under some Muslim traditions (which? if not exactly the same) no quantity of a stimulant is acceptable (according to what Muslim authority?).

Effects of theophylline from tea: increasing heart rate, increasing blood pressure, increasing renal blood flow. How is that not a stimulant? This is not a matter for Wikipedia editors to debate. For this reason, if the authority doesn't spell out specific items, I doubt the source is workable here. Please provide sources where Muslim authorities spell out specific prohibitions so we don't have to guess at the dividing line between coffee, tea, and chocolate. — MaxEnt 18:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would you consider taking a look at the edits that were made to the last paragraph of the article over the course of that discussion? Looie496 (talk) 23:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you not know "which is metabolised in the liver into 10% theobromine, 4% theophylline, and 80% paraxanthine" ?? I see a neurologist (or troll) here. Why did you throw such a "confusing the general public" paragraph at me? "stimulatory thought-crime" ?? First I'd like to state this MaxEnt guy is putting words into my mouth. This conversation was never about "stimulatory" effects of food. You first summarize me, altering whatever you wish from their. Then deduce that summarization. If you want to deduce something. or logically advance from an argument. advance from MY argument. NOT YOUR made-up argument. As for the Coffee-tea-chocolate, I have already cleared myself up. Secondly, This argument was never about "Stimulating" "foods" it was from the beginning about "Psychoactive" "Drugs". If you do have problems with my definitions, Im afraid, Sir, Either you are intentionally trolling, or have some disabling problems that make you unable to understand science. This article itself clearly states what Caffeine is. It even makes disputes about its legality. Maybe not for your imaginary "religious-sensual" sense, but even for the "well-being" of people. Can you point me to an article, in ALL of internet and ACADEMICS that states Sucrose is a Psychoactive Drug?? Why would you mix things like this and throw a question like this? Do you not understand what a psychoactive drug is? or do you refuse to do so? This is not a humanities article, if you want to continue further. Read science. this is not about what people or cooks think about food. If you do believe there is an issue with stimulants-psychoactive drugs ANY MORE. then ressist your urge to post ANY MORE REPLIES further.NO MORE TROLLING. And lastly, as a favor from me, I'd like to tell you a bit about MSG. DO NOT MIX NATURAL GLUTAMATES THAT OCCUR IN FOOD AND ARTIFICIAL MSG. artificial msg is absorbed and kept in much higher concentrations in blood, crosses your blood-brain barrier and is a neurotoxin. I avoid msg in foods or try to. Read about this. wiki is enough I think. Atleast make yourself clear about the difference between the glutamates and their absorption in the gastrointestinal tract. being protein bound and free and all... Rmraihan (talk) 22:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And If you have read that discussion before. You should know that I am more than happy to provide you enough published sources. and authority that is bound to be enough for our progeny discussing this article. But if you ARE intentionally refusing to accept the Scientifical or logical view about stimulants and psychoactive drugs and say intentionally uninformed things I refuse to do so. I know you might not have read all I've said before so I'd like to tell you something that doesn't require you to be a muslim but needs some of your will. Go out. Grab a Muslim(who reads quran/hadith a little and isnt entirely atheist-like). and Ask. are Psychoactive Drugs/ ALL DRUGS "PROHIBITED" or not in ISLAM. Please do this. Dont think this is a vague thing for us. this is a clear thing. but the problem is not with the muslims. its a problem that was with even me, a few years back. few caffeine users accept that caffeine is a psychoactive drug. We just take it in a small amount. But doesnt mean its not. Lets just leave it to science and do what you are required to. dont reinvent stuff. If you're unclear about what I said about "future" back then, Im afraid I cannot bring that up again. We are clear about psychoactive drugs. But caffeine is a new thing for Islam. what reason accepts is not accepted by most muslims. We are not here to discuss public opinion. We just discuss reason. Yes its a psychoactive drug. Yes all Muslims know Psychoactive drugs are prohibited. Yes Their understanding of psychoactive drugs and the definition of Science is nearly synonymous. If you have a problem with any of the Yes s tell me which one. If havent still gotten out. Ill know. Because you'll have problems understanding me. If you dont understand what people actually think. THOUGH THEY DRINK COFFEE THEY DONT ACKNOWEDGE IT AS A PSYCHOACTIVE DRUG. NEARLY ALL OF US DONT. NOT ONLY MUSLIMS. Rmraihan (talk) 22:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, MaxEnt, not READING what I wrote before you break most of the rules wikipedia might contain. As for "The main point I would emphasize is that you can't make demands of other Wikipedia editors based on their knowledge or lack of knowledge of Sharia law..." thing you said without reading any of what I said before. Please know that your claim is, false, if I consider you have read what I wrote. And Intentional too. I never demanded shariah knowledge. I said If you dont know about shariah that page ought to become a very long argument. I was never inadequate of logical or analytical advancements. I never stopped Advancing logically demanding HIS knowledge. I only said again and again that : HE WILL ASK QUESTIONS HE OUGHT NOT TO, ABOUT WHICH THERE IS NO CONFUSION, SO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEM ONE BY ONE. AND THAT ARGUMENT WILL BE MULTIPLE TIMES THE ORIGINAL POST LENGTH. Do you follow what I was and am trying to say? for instance he demanded a fatwa from me. that was outrageous. I had explained him what fatwa was using original wikipedia text explaining to non-muslims the popular misconceptions. now if he has problems to digest that, what do I do? give him laxatives or something? can you suggest me some? If he had advanced logically, there would be no demands of shariah laws. But he refuses to do so, he doesnt know anything or has misconceptions and wouldnt accept anything further. I only demanded shariah knowledge because of a complain. the complain that I have to write so many things. that a muslim wouldnt be asking me. not only that, I have to source everything I say. simplify it many times for him. and give him wiki text(like fatwa's..) but he refuses to accept even that! this is a lot of burden! why should I progress any further? I am only complaining, but I never refused to progress. Your increasing my burden by not keeping a muslim friend beside u when you're talking.! Rmraihan (talk) 23:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There might be some gaps pertaining to me answering your posts on this talk page. sorry, but I cannot be someone's work ass. If you disagree with what is on the wiki on the religion section. Next time YOU BRING YOUR SOURCES AND PROVE YOUR WAY THROUGH THAT IM THE ONE WHOS WRONG. ADVANCE LOGICALLY. OR REGRESS LOGICALLY WITH SOURCES. because Im tired of answering to non-muslims asking me of common muslim stuff. And computer science students thinking they are bio-geeks. Rmraihan (talk) 23:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I also have problems with "from what I find". what you find is Google. what you only take for bible is google. but google doesnt list hadith. we muslims dont google about drugs. we find hadith. then we are without unsurities. Dont you understand that I myself, too, know there is little implication on Google what shariah considers Drugs? You get many things in Google BUT THE CHIEF THINGY you ought to have found is what MUSLIM PEOPLE CONSIDER PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS. THOUGH UNNECESSARY FOR OUR ARGUMENT AS IT HAS PROCEEDED BEFORE. IF YOU KNEW, YOUR CONFIDENCE YOU CERTAINLY INCREASE A LOT! WHAT WE COMMON PEOPLE CONSIDER DRUGS! WHAT THE WORD "INTOXICANT" MEANS TO US. STUFF LIKE THIS. I give you published references to you in this matter. but to no effect. because you're unsure about people's opinion. Its not the GOOGLE THEN THE PEOPLE is who you should consider as your source of information! Rmraihan (talk) 23:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In few words, what you need to really know aside from anything else is- What I am talking about is a clash between people's regarding caffeine as a psychoactive drug(scientifically). And Science. The clash is NOT between ISLAM and people's understanding of ISLAM's definition. no. that is a problem with you people. And be advised that by ISLAM, we mean other things than you mean by CHRISTIANITY. Who has the right to change and romanize even their prophet's name! invent rituals and stuff. Theres no authority in Islam like that. Im again giving you the excerpt pertaining this matter which looie refused to digest: from fatwa (wikipedia- section - misconceptions about Fatwa) "A fatwā is not automatically part of Islamic teachings. While the person issuing it may intend to represent the teachings of Islam accurately, this does not mean that that person's interpretation will gain universal acceptance. There are many divergent schools within the religion, and even people within the same current of thought will sometimes rule differently on a difficult issue. This means that there are numerous contradictory fatwā, prescribing or proscribing a certain behavior. This puts the burden of choice on the individual Muslim, who, in case of conflict, will be forced to decide whose opinion is more likely to be correct." And please read the first lines of this paragraph carefully. there is no clash between islam and people. the clash is between science and people. People ALREADY took what islam says, varbatim. People YET DIDNT TAKE what SCIENCE says. this is a problem. and if you fail to see why this problem erupted you deserve no more replies whatsoever. this is a problem with FUTURE. STUFF WILL COME IN FUTURE WHICH PEOPLE MIGHT BE UNINFORMED IN. WE ARE NOT CONNECTED TO UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE GRID. WE ARE NOT "UPDATED" BEINGS. Science might go further. But people didnt. 180.234.78.37 (talk) 00:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah caffeine, "the wine of Islam". My favourite type? Arabic, definitely. In all seriousness, coffee has been controversial in Islam - despite the love affair with the substance in many Muslim countries - and there appear to have been two interpretations - one allowing for its use as not specifically proscribed by the Quran and another endorsing a wider interpretation of possibly transgressive behaviour. The text should represent both interpretations of Sharia Law but also reflect the rather massive scale with which many populations in predominantly Muslim countries both historically and in the present have consumed coffee. This seems a reasonable English-language source to me.FiachraByrne (talk) 02:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the point to make would be that occasional attempts by religious conservatives to ban coffee on religious grounds have been spectacularly unsuccessful in Islamic countries. This is hardly surprising given the historical importance of Middle Eastern and North African cultures to the history of coffee. Indeed the word coffee itself is Arabic in origin (qahwa ... with the "w" pronounced as "v") and, of course, the sacred bean is grown on the Coffea arabica. Further, the coffee trade was effectively controlled by Middle Eastern traders until the end of the 18th century. [2] FiachraByrne (talk) 03:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a good source on the "coffee debate" in Islam. [3] FiachraByrne (talk) 03:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source-book on Islamic criminal law relating intoxicants, including coffee: [4] FiachraByrne (talk) 03:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More on the 16th century coffee debate [5] FiachraByrne (talk) 03:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now there's something else I didn't know - "Mocha" is the name of chief port in Yemem and which had a major role in the coffee trade (as Yemen had a monopoly of coffee production). [6]

@Rmraihan. What are your sources? At Talk:Rmraihan/Islam and Caffeine all I can see are a couple of quotes from the Quran and other primary sources. I can verify that there's been a modern movement to have coffee considered an intoxicant but I have no sense that this is anything other than a fringe or at least non-mainstream interpretation. Do you have any secondary sources that support the interpretation of coffee as an intoxicant under Islamic Law? Do you have any secondary sources that support that this interpretation is mainstream? FiachraByrne (talk) 04:20, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Though I salute you honestly for actually reading about this and not quoting some Salah al-din unknown crap without any reference to what arguments or logics he himself used to get to a conclusion. Yet the mistake you are doing is same as what your predecessors did. You are "unsure" about the popular opinion. And TOO SURE that they DONT SHUN ALL PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS BY RULES OF ISLAM. Now I want to give you some info, and I would like to know your thoughts about it. Because it is a so simple fact that spoils water on ALL THE REFERENCES AND HARD WORK YOU DID. DO YOU KNOW smoking tobacco is actually shunned by islam, people know this, and yet they are completely legal in Saudi Arabia? You are definitely making a mistake crossing the point that marks religion and politics. Politics are always different. It WAS NEVER ISLAMIC TO KILL MUHAMMAD's(PBUH) GRANDCHILDREN. NOR WAS IT TO SELL SAUDI ARABIA TO AMERICANS AND banish islamic democracy and establish the "throne" of american... this goes a long way. And as I have already discussed if you have problems pertaining to what science says about caffeine then you should refrain from discussing any more whatsoever. this is not a humanities article. Does the fact not go into your little brain that "CAFFEINE" being a psychoactive drug is a quite modern knowledge. it hasnt even spread to most of its users. no not in the 17th 18th or 19th century, even most of 20th century people only could "DOUBT" they could never prove that it was one. Please. Dont confuse science with humanity and history. Science is knowledge beyond doubt. What our elders doubted is their burden not ours. Lastly, I want to again tell you. Please go OUT. Grab a good muslim. and ask him! not google! your logics are really messed up because you believe muslims are confused about psychoactive drugs while they're not! they are only confused about caffeine and any new drugs like this would come and science tells us clearly what they are! 180.234.71.247 (talk) 08:32, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And another thing, just do the go-out crap I mentioned. Its really important for our argument. And the three things I told you to ask christians and muslims in my verbose exchange. Books remain very elusive about common knowledge. Theres just no need for them to write! You still would have some doubts. Which I will answer, but not before I fix things up with you. And if my subject keeps changing, How can I educate all of them? And this movement crap you again mentioned despite all the clearing I did on looie. Really deserves a no answer. You first read my argument and ask specefically on what you have problems. I cannot answer oblivious-to-me questions again and again to any new person who sprouts up. Rmraihan (talk) 08:40, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And again you talk about things without reading about them. How dare you again say my sources are primary? Did you or did you not READ the HEATED CONVERSATION between me and looie? Dont you understand? You are unsure about my saying that PEOPLE'S DEFINITION OF PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS AND THEIR TRUE DEFINITION. ARE SAME! You are only unsure about it. Whatever I give you has no effect on you. Because all you trust is google. If you doubt one line by me, then doubt only that! dont just vomit everything I say! If you dont want to advance logically then dont continue. You are very irritating because you havent read what I said about sources to looie. If you read that and if a question arises in you pertaining that Im more than happy to provide you sources and make you clear about what you want to know. And I assure you I can do that. But what I cannot do is your repeated agnosticism to READING, SCIENCE, and HISTORY POLITICS! Please. Go out. grab a muslim. and make yourself confident about advancing yourself in my argument. The only reason you are repeatedly making clear waters blurry is because you're still unsure! Get some confidence if u wanna talk. I cannot waste myself teaching you history science and politics. Common muslim knowledge and stuff. this is outrageous. You WOULDNT READ WHAT I SAID. ARGUE WITH ABSURDLY INADEQUATE KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCE IN A SCIENCE ARTICLE. KEEP CHANGING PEOPLE WHEN I CLEAR THINGS UP. SO NEW BURDENS SPROUT THAT NEED READING, AGAIN! Rmraihan (talk) 08:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Coffee was not mentioned in primary sources specifically. As they didnt exist before 13th century and was in business like this after 19th century. It has always BEEN the source of a DOUBT, that its a psychoactive drug. Until recently, when its classified as a psychoactive drug and its benefits are contrasted to its psychological effects. So many secondary sources existed in the 16th to 19th century which carry INCOMPLETE arguments. until recently. when the primary sources, its common interpretation,(not secondary source or movement! common muslim interpretation!) and science fit into the logic puzzle that declares it prohibited. secondary sources are never a problem in this respect as I have discussed way back, and they are abundant. the puzzle piece missing from the people is not the primary source, nor the interpretation of it. the puzzle piece missing is the one of Science. teach a muslim science and he'll too declare Caffeine specifically prohibited. People might not know science. But does that mean it doesn't exist? Or that because THEY dont know science we CANNOT ADVANCE LOGICALLY HERE.!Rmraihan (talk) 09:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fiachra, sorry for being lengthy. But I have said nothing here that I havent mentioned before. And its your fault for not following up. You have no one to blame but you. I could not leave the page as it was before could I? Then your UNREADING attitude would settle this dispute as settled. In your favor! Rmraihan (talk) 09:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Rmraihan - even with my little brain, the logic of your argument is clear. Islamic law prohibits intoxicants. That caffeine is a psychoactive substance, and therefore an intoxicant, has only recently been established scientifically. Historical interpretations of the status of caffeine could not have known this and are therefore deficient. Given our present state of knowledge caffeine must be considered a forbidden substance for any Muslim (although whether or not they individually adhere to this is another matter and largely besides the point). You have convinced me of this, sincerely. However, all of this is, unfortunately, irrelevant to Wikipedia. This is so as I've yet to see you actually cite a reliable (i.e. scholarly) secondary source that promotes this argument. That means that such a source would not only have to say that intoxicants are forbidden under Islamic Law but that caffeine should also be considered an intoxicant. In the argument above you appear to be making this connection yourself. That is insufficient for Wikipedia, even if it is true and logical (see WP:Truth), as it necessarily depends on your own synthesis (WP:SYNTH and WP:OR). Both the Quran and hadith are primary sources of course and should, for WP, never be interpreted by an editor. You must rely on a secondary source to do this interpretation for you. Actually, I've linked to a tertiary source above which points to a secondary source that indicates that some modern interpretations of Islamic Law consider caffeine as an intoxicant and therefore forbidden. However, you'd still have to establish that this was not merely a fringe view but of sufficient weight to merit inclusion in this article. Also, the scientific status of caffeine as a psychostimulant is irrelevant if this point has not been raised by qualified Islamic scholars. You cannot make these connections yourself. FiachraByrne (talk) 14:19, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, the establishment of whether this is a fringe view does not depend upon upon a determination of popular opinion but, for this topic, the weight of opinion amongst qualified scholars of Islamic law. FiachraByrne (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The bottom line is: No reliable secondary source = no edit to article. The hadiths themselves are clearly primary sources and cannot be used for this purpose.

Suggested edit: Remove entire unsourced paragraph that currently reads "Although every psychoactive drug is prohibited ... widely consumed psychoactive substance." and replace it with:

• "Some Muslim authorities have considered caffeinated coffee to be a forbidden 'intoxicating beverage' under Islamic dietary laws."^[2]

using this Encyclopedia of Islam as our reliable secondary source. The author of the encyclopedia has a Ph.D. in the History of Religions, and is an Associate Professor of Religious Studies in History of Religions (Islam) and Arabic at UCSB. Good? Zad68 15:46, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another book by a Ph.D. in Islamic studies and it confirms the same thing, and even mentions caffeine directly. Zad68 15:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That looks reasonable, Zad68. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Thank you, to be gallant as for the reason's plight! I have immediately reverted the original article to a position advanced by our mutual argument. Yet I have left a bit of that "clearing" to do (Just enough already!). I shall not take any common system of information dissemination granted from here on out, so as to avoid confusion in the future generations reading this as the context here might not be same as the model used in Science, or History. I will also try to quote reasons directly from Wikipedia Sources related articles, as they are the main basis of what I shall present here. Though I will state nothing new, it has been "oversimplifiedtrollversion"ed before, as my peer ressisted progressing in his reason. The mistake looie did, was to assume that the writer must have no argument of his own in the concussion altogether. Though that is not supported by reason as I've already mentioned there. He failed to see the wikipedia policy on this and just based his assumptions on the talk between many wikipedians. There MUST be an argument of MY OWN as the reason implies. BUT The wikipedia policy does not collide with this! Only looie's thought did! What he didnt know was the writer does in fact present an original analysis! THE BURDEN of whatever I write IS SOLELY ON ME. BUT as to the problem of verifiability, MY ARGUMENT cannot ADVANCE to a position already advanced by verifiable(published) sources.(According to common models of Science and History, Secondary and Tertiary Sources) (What looie assumed had a problem, multiple tertiary sources colliding with each other. And If I can not think of my own then which one of them shall win the war. This assumption is altogether unreasonable, non-existant, and based on talk between wikipedians only. Just talking about sources doesnt mean ur pro on Information Dissemination.) The ARGUMENT shall be itself BASED on Reliable Sources.(According to common models, Secondary, so as to verify the reliability of the primary source. Like an historical first hand account is primary. And its reliability is Secondary) And BASING THEM it can only ADVANCE to a position of analysis as presented before in another published(preferrably) analysis(common models:tertiary) to be attribitued as source! And though the debate I shall now present is entirely unneeded for the construction of the argument that will advance, I need to do for the future people reading this. this will be between hyphenations. -Though DO NOT assume that the Primary sources are solely primary sources in this context. As historical first hand accounts and Scientific Original Research needs to be verified. Islamic sources do not. They are itself Both primary and secondary sources. This means any analysis of them might have higher levels of information dissemination. But the source is already present. It is as reliable as the secondary sources citing it!- Now if I move up another level in information dissemination to the existance of published sources analysis that has advanced as much as I have presented in my argument. They are already present and I was always ready to give them after I settled the confusion in looie's little brain. (secondary sources=reliable info= base of argument, tertiary source=some else's analysis= proof of non originality of my advancement) Now, as I have cleared about my sources. The three lines I have presented I can already source accordingly.(though it is a pain now for me as google books cannot be accessed without a proxy from here, zad's source would definitely add to the list) Rmraihan (talk) 02:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Though what I write will have their verifiability problem fixed in the future, as our argument would come to mutual conclusion. There is another problem about my argument that needs clearifying according to wikipedia policies. You didn't point it out. I will present the argument about that once it arises. And I hope to be successful about that too, not increasing the load on you right here, right now! Rmraihan (talk) 02:29, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These walls of text don't do you any favours. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The wording in this source [7] appears to indicate that coffee isn't typically prohibited. We appear to be reporting the views of some small number of individuals (as the wording indicates), but not saying what the standard Islamic perspective is. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC) Zad, I'm sure this [8] is what the majority of sources probably say; the issue is that the current references don't seem to say it from what I can see. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, "widely consumed by Muslims" is a paraphrase of Campo pp. 154-155, read the paragraph "The coffee prepared..." and the sentence "None of these efforts to prohibit..." Also see Brown, the few pages starting at p. 149. I think it's a reasonable paraphrase.

I agree that post-16th century debate over caffeine isn't really significant. New proposed content:

Caffeinated beverages are widely consumed by Muslims today; in the 16th century, some Muslim authorities made unsuccessful attempts to ban them as forbidden "intoxicating beverages" under Islamic dietary laws.^[2][3]

dropping not very significant-looking Warren and using Brown instead. Zad68 15:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's ok by me. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Applied. Zad68 15:16, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@IRWolfie- Sometimes using brawn instead of brain spoils things instead giving you awards for hard-work! Specifically mentioning and bringing forth 16th Century! Even though I thought I made myself clear why it would be non-sensical! Even if you do disagree with me on that particular point and you have a far more logical view to share and Im very nincompoopy comparing you, that point isn't undisputed. And fringe theories?? Are you mocking yourself or me? Sharing your christian attitude and what "seems" to you the mainstream idea, might not be! Atleast if you only didn't mention 16th century particularly Wolfie, Then I would have save for you some respect as a wikipedian. sure it doesn't help you too doesn't it? Only do the unreading unmeaning tubelights refer text as WALLS (predicament isn't it? READING THROUGH! ??) however unworthy might be, as walls. Rmraihan (talk) 09:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a christian, and I was speaking of mainstream islamic thought. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:07, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are! It is not about what you do, it doesn't matter whether you go the church or not. You were raised by christian parents. As for the article, Ill soon too excercise brawn over you once I contact one of my old friends. Until then, dont consider me to be logical or something. I made my points. If you had disagreement you could say, but that unnecessary fact that you brang up concerning 16th century surely proves you never read it. what is reasonable and what is not if you dont even know what they are? By citing the 16th century you are making things seem like what they are not in reality. If you dont have any reason to follow up everything here, like fiacra and write something reasonable, then why bother posting here? What logic can I say to you without making it long, when it's already posted! Rmraihan (talk) 13:34, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And the false delusions of "mainstream islamic thought" you live in either emerged from those Children's encyclopedias about muslims summing them up for christians or some detached muslim like you who can only give him his incomplete opinion. No not like you, atleast you read a little about your religion. I seriously doubt that you even contacted any muslim-name atheist in your country, far less you would ever even talk to a mainstream muslim in a muslim country in all your life! Why do you even come here? did you ever read one hadith in your life, just out of mere curiosity?? Rmraihan (talk) 13:43, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, wolfie boy. I can give you some presents next christmas as your punishment some books! and know what books Ill give to you? Books by MUSLIM WRITERS (VERY POPULAR IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES) about the laws of Christianity. Once you read them. You'll understand how mocking are the sources you provide are to muslims. Though It'll be much more fun if you cant finish and keep them books your home. Hope you get scared and say OMG every time you walk past them! Rmraihan (talk) 09:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even though reading is obviously a true chore for you, Ill sum you up only the points it was made clear before by me. Only the parts which were not doubted, or otherwise disputed.

1. Islamic Primary Sources, My own logical interpretation, Their common-street-muslim public Interpretation AND many tertiary or secondary sources are clear that by the common definition supplied by science, all psychoactive drugs are prohibited.

2. This thing is not easily found in Google. long story.

3. Google is not "search muslim countries for their common belief". If you deludedly think that, You'll get a christian diseased view that is unsupported by us.

4. Unto this point everything is clear. what follows is not.

5. There is no movement against caffeine specifically. Nor is against tobacco which is specifically believed by common muslims as prohibited. (I WONT SOURCE THIS, GO ASK SOMEONE FROM A MUSLIM COUNTRY)

6. MOST MUSLIMS THINK CAFFEINE AS HALAL (PERMITTED).

7. Most caffeine users think caffeine is NOT a psychoactive drug. so do muslims. The concepts of science didn't reach them.

8. It is also very serious to cite 16th century movements. There were movements like this in your own religion too. SCIENTIFIC FACTS DID NOT EXIST THEN. so our interpretations of primary sources and worldly facts did not coincide. now they do.

9. So it is ENTIRELY UNNECCESSARY UP UNTIL THIS POINT , TO PROVE ANYTHING NEW, IN WIKIPEDIA. BUT WHAT IS NOT. DIGEST IT.

10. Digest this. ill talk later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmraihan (talk • contribs) 14:11, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The half-life documented here is 4.9 hours. Many sources on the web are using 2.5 to 4.5 hours. The two citations used here for the half-life are poor. One is presently a broken link, and the other is mainly a discussion of metabolism anomaly (IIRC from my quick glance). Google Scholar found a couple of papers that appeared to resolve this, but the necessary bits are behind a paywall. It would be good to cite one of the actual studies used to characterize half-life in people with normal metabolism. Note: there are studies out there with extremely poor population sizes. One had a population of normal individuals with just three members. — MaxEnt 18:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The half-life seems to be quite variable, even among people with normal metabolism. If you would like to change the value and have a good source, I have no problem with that. Looie496 (talk) 23:41, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please change: "Caffeine is a bitter, white crystalline xanthine alkaloid that acts as a stimulant drug and an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor." to: "Caffeine is a bitter, white crystalline xanthine alkaloid that acts as a stimulant drug."

There really is no evidence to support the claim that caffeine or any xanthine is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. The citation for this claim is week at best. There is little structurally that would suggest caffeine to be one and this in a very well understood area (acetylcholinesterase inhibitors). I would suggest finding more to support this claim or remove the statement. Or at a minimum remove it from the FIRST line suggestion that this is a clear mechanism of action of caffeine. 67.166.99.238 (talk) 21:14, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done as requested. If somebody provides a better source we can revisit the issue. Looie496 (talk) 23:49, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]