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Another editor wants to change the linking of "Other characters" from the body of the template to the side, where it says "Characters". Personally, I do not agree with this change. For one, it moves it to a place in the template that is less visible, and not as obvious to readers that it is a link to a list of characters other than the main characters. It also is not as aesthetically pleasing, because you have one random link over to the left, where all of the other page links are in the body. There is no guideline or policy that says we must link there, as it's a personal preference thing. I say, unless there is consensus for the preference, then it should not be changed. Anyone else?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:56, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am the editor who initially wished to make the change to this navbox. Please ignore my statements in my edit summaries which indicate that Bignole has not been willing to discuss this change; there was a miscommunication between us which was entirely the result of an oversight on my part. I agree with Bignole's comment above that the change I have recommended is not required by guidelines. I do believe it to be a better option than the current situation, however, primarily for three reasons:

1. The list includes all characters, both those who have their own articles as well as those who do not. To call the link "Other characters" suggests that those who are individually named on the template are not listed on the character list.
2. There is ample precedent for linking to character lists in the side of the navbox and linking to individual character articles in that section. Examples include Template:Naruto, Template:Bleach, and Template:Toy Story.
3. Navboxes are supposed to include as little unlinked text as possible. On the navigation templates essay, it states that "Unlinked text should be avoided." While this page about how to format navboxes is only an essay and not a guideline, I do believe the concept of limiting unlinked text on navboxes to have merit. By moving the link to the side of the navbox, the unlinked text "Characters" is no longer required.

In summary, I do believe the side would be a better location for the character list link, however I only submit this as a suggestion and will not make this change unless consensus is in favour of it. Neelix (talk) 17:48, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the side link on a tons of templates, and if it is a blue link I'm guessing that readers will hover over it, or click on it. Darrenhusted (talk) 19:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the statement "To call the link "Other characters" suggests that those who are individually named on the template are not listed on the character list" - Nothing suggests that. "Other characters" means that the list contains "other characters". Given that the page contains those 4 characters who have their own page (3 of those characters I'm not actually sure need their own page), is irrelevant. The fact is, the page chronicles the "Other characters" more than it does those 4 ones that have their own page. So, the term "Other characters" is correct.

When Wikipedia:Navigation templates talks about avoiding "unlinked text", it's not talking about the headers of sections. It's referring to having names in the template that don't have pages. That very section even provides an example of what it means, which directly refers to the unlinked text of "Axis of Justice" at the template on the bottom right section. It also refers to the 8 unlinked "Notable Guests" that appear in that template. It in no way is referring to the section headers needing to be linked.

As for a precedent. The fact that something has been done in the past does not necessarily mean that we should continue to do it. You can find just as many templates that do not link those headers as do.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Might I suggest that maybe this would be more easily discussed if there were two sandbox mockups that editors here could see and compare. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 05:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Current

Proposed Change

How is that?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 05:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "Characters" link would not work per WP:EGG; it is not intuitive enough for readers to know that it links to specifically List of Halloween characters. Hovering is not a technique to compensate for the lack of intuitiveness. For Neelix's #2, it is unfortunate that these templates violate WP:EGG, and they should be amended. Blue links should be to the right of the left column. Something like "List of Halloween characters incl. major characters: <name> <name> <name>" would be better. Erik (talk) 12:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe that the "Characters" link violates WP:EGG; I cannot imagine any other possible target of such a link, and it is readily apparent to users that it is a link. Additionally, the concept that "Blue links should be to the right of the left column" is opposed to common practice on Wikipedia. Most templates in well-developped areas of Wikipedia include blue links on the right side of the left column; see Template:Canada topics, Template:Solar System table, and Template:Cheirogaleidae nav, or most other navboxes on featured articles for prominent examples. Neelix (talk) 18:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about Characters? There's a whole list for various uses of "characters", all of which could be potentially used if a reader doesn't realize that we're linking to a page of characters from this particular topic. Since they'd have to "scroll over" the link to verify what it is, that would make it violate EGG. "Most" articles have trivia sections, but they are not allowed, and the featured status of an article is not dictated by how a template is designed. You could have the most poorly designed template in the world of Wikipedia, and it would have no bearing on the featured status of an article.

As for your examples. The Canada template doesn't have blue links. It has links, but you cannot even tell they are there unless you scroll over them, because the blue indicator was removed. That probably needs to be addressed there, because that surely is a violation of WP:EGG. The links in the Solar System template go to exactly what they say. If you click "Dwarf Planets" you go to a page that says "Dwarf Planets". That isn't the same as clicking a link that says "Characters" and getting "List of Halloween characters" - as there is no pipe linking involved with the Solar System template example. The same is true for the Cheirogaleidae template, those links go to exactly what they say. The only slight difference is that they are piped with the scientific name. BUT, in each case you see the true name (which is the name of the page) displayed underneath the scientific name. It wouldn't make sense to have "Characters" and then "List of Halloween characters" in small print below that.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to the relevant essay, "Navigation templates provide navigation between related articles". A link to Character would not make sense because it is a disambiguation page. Even a link to Character (arts) would not make sense because it is not related to Darkwing Duck enough to place the navbox on that article. List of Halloween characters is the only link which makes sense. Employing the term "Other characters" rather than "Characters" does not specify that the link is to List of Halloween characters any further; instead, it introduces the error that the list is only about characters other than those individually listed. If the manner in which my examples of well-developped navboxes have been dismissed was to be followed to its natural conclusion, it would be believed that there is no manner of developping precedent in navbox formatting, no manner of making progress over time. Such surely should not be the case. While there are featured articles, lists, and series on Wikipedia, there is no such thing as a featured template. If we do not recognize templates in well-developped areas of Wikipedia (namely those which have a significant number of featured articles) as establishing precedent, I am open to other suggestions of how to do so. Neelix (talk) 12:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But the assumption would be that articles within the area were related, not that the header would necessarily be related. Employing the term "Other characters" in line with the listing of the individual character articles would suggest that the page contains more characters that do not appear in the template - which it does. The fact remains that the "List of Halloween characters" page deals more with the "other characters" than it does with the four that have their own page. As such, even putting that first would suggest that it is somehow more important than the four characters that have their own page - which it is not. There is no guideline, policy, or essay that says to link in the left column. The essay that even talks about lack of "unlinked terms" isn't even referring to the linking of things in the left column, but the lack of linking of terms in the body of the template. WP:EGG does discourage the use of piping to articles by using terms that might suggest something else, and this would be a borderline case of "Could 'Characters' be assumed to be something else?" - in which it could easily be assumed to be. To say "Characters" suggests that every character is presented on the page, which is not true. The reason it is listed as "Other characters" is because the page lists the other, secondary characters from the films. It is a more accurate title than simply "Characters", which sounds like it will chronicle every last character from the films.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bignole and I clearly disagree on this issue; both my arguments and his are starting to become restatements of our positions, both of which are grounded in our own perceptions of what makes for the most intelligible navbox and not based on guidelines on this topic (as they do not exist). For this reason, other users' opinions and ideas would be greatly appreciated. Neelix (talk) 18:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as keeping it simple for readers, I much prefer the version where the other characters link is left with the others. Linking 'characters' could just as easily mean that the link points to the concept of characters rather than a list specific to Halloween. I have often overlooked the existence of links because the name of the field is wikilinked rather than the wikilink being left as a member of the field itself, I doubt that's something I alone overlook. I fail to see how readers gain anything by the move. Someoneanother 16:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]