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Talk:Ethnic Cleansing (video game)

1

Whoa. This little bit sounds so very wrong for a supposedly non-biased reference...

"Ethnic Cleansing is an important step in the history of racist video gaming. Until its release, racism in video games had been resticted to patches for decade-old games such as Doom, Pac Man or Wolfenstein 3D. Ethnic Cleansing is quite probably the first explicity racist video game created from scratch. Resistance intend to create a similar line of games based on the events of the Turner Diaries."

I mean, "important step in the history of racist video gaming?" That sounds as if the writer is optimistic that more racist videogames will follow suit. Someone revise it please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.115.196.67 (talk) 04:38, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it to this:

Ethnic Cleansing is possibly the first computer or video game that was conceived, developed and marketed as an having explicitly racist content.

The reason being that "racism" in games has quite a long history, depending on how you define "racism in games". (Some might go on and argue anything that even remotely looks like a racial stereotype might qualify as racism, for example.) The overtly racist mods to games are a topic in itself and might not need to be discussed in this article at all, unless they're also discussed in the articles of the games too, which they aren't right now. (Racist mods for Pac-Man? what the...? And I thought you didn't need any racist mods for Wolf3D, that place is crawling with Nazis already!)

The above sentence in my opinion summarises why this particular game is notable(ish). And I say "possibly" in it, because I have very vague recollections of some 8-bit games getting flak for having what could be interpreted as racist things (but could be just a mod thing again). --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 16:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ehm...ever heard of KZ manager? That IS a racist and pro-nazi game and existed way before Ethnic Cleansing, even way before Wolf3D. The link on its page leads to a download page full of racist or otherwise offensive/extremist games, and many of these date back to DOS days. What makes Ethnic Cleansing so special is that it's the first such game to be commercially released. EpiVictor 20:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Never heard of that one. =/ Thanks for the clarifications. And I know racist games as such aren't new too. I'll think up something and put it to this article. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 12:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added a note about the levels in Manhunt where you get to kill skinheads. Knowing Rockstar, it was their protest to this game. But really, killing skinheads. Manhunt was an inappropriate title... it should have been called PUSSYHUNT! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.162.192.39 (talk) 08:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They are not the ones who said it was horrible.The news mostly did.They just made a game they never said it was horrible and offensive.So any game that does not let you kill people by race is bad? Manhunt was a game about fun and a game that lets me kill dumb redneck racists i would say is pretty damn fun.69.220.1.137 (talk) 07:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GTA3 allows you to kill gang members from 6 different ethnicities,with a white-only police force to stop you. Though this isn't the main point of the game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.145.14 (talk) 07:10, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not notable???

Since when is a made by white supremacists, for white supremacists, not notable??? Its like the only true racist game!! Did someone put that up cause they feel the subject is too sensitive or some BS like that?? Come on!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.186.171 (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's also notable due to it being the first commercially released white supremacist game. If that's not notable I don't know what is. 71.237.0.144 (talk) 19:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not notable because the game flopped and was said to been crap. I also doubt that it was the first game made for white supremacists. CrazyWalter05 (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ethnic Cleansing (video game)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs) 05:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


The link to the home webpage is down on the external links.

  • The staff opined that only "very stupid children" would be susceptible to its message and that it would make players feel like "small-minded assholes" - I would simply drop the "very stupid children" and "asshole" quotes and simply reflect that they acknowledged it was a game targeted at children, has blatent racism and that it was further insulting to have it release on Martin Luther King day. I don't mean to mince words, but I prefer that such casual comments as quoted by the reference be paraphrased to maintain professionalism on Wikipedia.
  • I would agree, but that changes the meaning. They're doing more than acknowledging the intent and racism; the "very stupid children" part means that it didn't do a good job at being persuasive. Tezero (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for "nightmarishly dumb", I think that is an okay quote if you want to leave one in. Probably not enough to make it a FA, but that might be have to be worked on for unifying the tone and prose if you choose to.
Okay, for the "very stupid children" part - you just explained it better than the publication! I cringe a little whenever see hyperbole like "nightmarishly dumb" which doesn't even make sense and is so descriptively vague. "Profoundly stupid" is a better descriptor and represents the point without getting into whether something is "nightmarish". The term refers to intensely disturbing, but as an adverb... it just ruins the flow somewhat. But that is minor in comparison to the first quotes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I've swapped it. Tezero (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • For "About two thousand copies of the game had been" is incorrect. A "couple thousand" is vague and it could be 4000 or 5000, but picking "about two thousand" is not accurate to what Pierce quoted.
  • "Resistance Records" should be used in full for this sentence. " Resistance released[2] and began to advertise the game on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day (January 21) of 2002." - Also could you please move the reference to the end of the sentence as per usual.
  • "a reference to the White nationalist motto of the Fourteen Words" is not supported by the Wired source. As a result this reads as original research in the article. If it cannot be supported by another source, I'd opt for the price removal out of relevancy.
  • " The National Alliance intended to create an entire line of racist games, but only Ethnic Cleansing and White Law have surfaced.[2][11]" - I do not see "White Law" in either source and both sources are old. I do not think you need a source for this, because you normally cannot prove a negative or non-existence of something with a source. Though the Pop Matters source carries the whole paragraph for you if you wish.
  • Last concern is the creative links or awkward links. As in the case of "subway system" going to rapid transit, "World domination" to Hegemony and most interestingly "monkey noises" to Stereotypes of African Americans. Not sure if you are aware of this, but that page makes no mention of "monkey" or "ape" at all. Racism is racism, but let's not be coy about it either. The other term "going postal" is likely not well-known and can be easily fixed.
  • I removed the "monkey noises" link for slight irrelevance (as well as the others), but the page does mention it: "a monkey sound is played". Reworded "going postal". Tezero (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, again, but you got to admit that the term is not always used as racist as well. The "monkey noises" were popularly launched at George W. Bush and it was a running gag for some productions. Of course, the clear racist implications are understood, but it was more of a fact that if there is an article on such a stereotype or act that it be linked to it. When I couldn't find any mention I felt that linking to it anyways seemed a bit odd. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The rest seems pretty satisfactory for a GA article, but I did find a few more severe issues then I expected to at first. There are several other sources which you missed that could easily help the article expand a bit more. These include:

  • I haven't seen those specifically, but I have seen a few that aren't used in the page. The problem is that these sources tend to say the same things because so few have actually played the game and most are content with being disgruntled with the idea of it and echoing hearsay and official statements. In this case, from a cursory perusal I'm not seeing anything meaningful I can add from those sources, although if anything's excessively controversial I can use them as supplements. Tezero (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The last of which also reads like some of the information came from Wikipedia... but does seem to add significantly and cite its sources. Probably more out there, but I'll let you get to fixing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:10, 7 November 2014 (UTC) ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:10, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll take a look at that stuff when I'm at my real computer. A minor note: I didn't add the "14/88" part; I agree with the removal of that original research bit. Tezero (talk) 06:27, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, ChrisGualtieri, think I've gotten to everything. Tezero (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I had a distinct feeling about that, you are always a very careful editor. It is why I am not blaming you in the least. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Passed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

88 does not stand for Heil Hitler in all iterations

It can also refer to Hitler's 88 words in 'Mein Kampf' talking about assuming the place the Creator of the Universe has assigned for us (Aryans). The Fourteen Words article linked even mentions that, so the article as it stands appears to be a bit contradictory.

Are there are any releases on this game about how the National Alliance intended 88 to be read? Phil of rel (talk) 01:01, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Reassessment

Ethnic Cleansing (video game)

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
Result pending

Fails GAC3 - broad overview of the topic. This is almost entirely cited to long ago news reports and advocacy group publications from when the game came out, so it does not adequately explain what sources discuss about the topic. While they aren't unreliable and that would be OK if that was all there was, this article contains literally none of the actually quite large amount of the scholarly discussion on this game [1]. We don't need to do all of them, but for a topic on RW extremism this cannot be a broad overview without scholarly sources, which this article cites nothing from. And do we have a cover of the game case or title screen, something to go in the infobox? We used to have one of the title screen but that was removed in 2023 without comment for seemingly no reason. An article like this should have something for the lead, or else it fails that aspect of the GAC too. It's also been basically entirely rewritten since it was GAN'd the first time. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:30, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The most recent rewrite was done by me when I was reworking the articles of unusual games that use the Genesis3D engine. My edits focused mostly on expanding the existing article (previously with only minor changes from the original GA) with additional journalistic sources and bringing the writing more in line with current standards. As it was a quick side-project on an existing GA, I didn't extensiely check for scholarly sources, but that is something that can be easily addressed. I will look into it in the coming days. As for the title image, using screenshots in the infobox is discouraged (per the template documentation), so I removed it in search of a better alternative. While there is a scan of the inlay, it is of rather low quality, which is why I avoided uploading it. Looking it up now, there is a logo on the game's archived website. Would you consider this a viable replacement? IceWelder [✉] 20:30, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@IceWelder Your rewrite was a definite improvement, it was much further away from fulfilling our current standards before. For curiosity's sake, what was the other GA? I could help address the scholarly sourcing issue as well it just seems to be missing a lot of it which is why I sent it to GAR instead of addressing it myself.
Ah, did not know that with the screenshots - still I think the title screen was better than nothing. The logo would be fine. Just something in it to represent the game. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:37, 11 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The two other Genesis3D GAs I wrote were Catechumen (video game) and Special Force (2003 video game), although the latter might also need some scholarly input now that I think about it. I will look into everything during the weekend, but I believe the article is definitely salvagable. IceWelder [✉] 09:35, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:20, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I went through 10 pages of Google Scholar and added what I could access. A lot of papers only name-dropped the game in lists of extremist games, others were merely about the actual concept of that name. When the source was a paid-access book, I checked Google Books but found little cite-worth content. I added eight paper citations as a result, as well as the logo. Regards, IceWelder [✉] 20:28, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What you added looked good. I still recall seeing some stuff about this in other books, so I am going to look for what I can and add that. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I added some stuff to further reading that has sigcov, I will add from it soon. My remaining concern is I don't think Běláč is reliable? PhD theses are generally reliable, Masters theses can be if cited widely, but bachelors theses don't undergo a lot of review. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:52, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have strong feelings for that source, no, although it does provide some good details for the gameplay section. If you feel like it is not even good enough for that, I can take it out. IceWelder [✉] 19:59, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Looked at it again and removed the Běláč sourced. Also, since the Bowman sources was available online, I added the few details from it to the article. IceWelder [✉] 16:41, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ethnic_Cleansing_(video_game)