If you want to engage someone who is criticizing you, step up and do it in the place where they are doing so. Mhm. When I see a group of people talking bad about me, I'm totally going to join the hostile group to make my point. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:13, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to take criticisms seriously when they do so off site, considering we don't ban or block folks for criticizing anybody here. So long as it doesn't escalate to harassment anyways. Hey man im josh (talk) 00:42, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, like most sentences in paragraph, this was not meant to be taken in isolation, unconnected from the rest of the paragraph it is part of. The very next sentence is If you don't want to do that, your remaining option is to let it go, not to start attacking them on-wiki. I would think we could agree on that? El Beeblerinoif you're not into the whole brevity thing23:29, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the whole point of that section is that WP and WPO operate under entirely different rules. I don't engage in the name calling or any of that, but it does happen. By and large there's nothing WP can do about it, so your remaining options would appear to be to engage over there to defend yourself, or just ignore it. What you shouldn't do is dirsupt WP over it, as certain persons rather noisily did late last year. If there's some other option, I'd love to hear it. El Beeblerinoif you're not into the whole brevity thing23:38, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I think anyone who engages on a site that actively participates in doxxing and harassment ought to be blocked, but I recognize that's an outlier position. ♠PMC♠ (talk)23:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're misunderstanding the argument. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with policies for neutrality, verifiability and against incivility. These policies are generally enforced pretty strongly; the community regularly excludes people who consistently ignore the policies. Wikipediocracy has no working enforced policy against malicious behavior that would lead to quick blocks and bans here. Associating oneself with Wikipedia by being active there and telling others about one's activities there is fine because Wikipedia is well-known for positive reasons. Associating oneself with Wikipediocracy by being active there and telling others about one's activities there does create an association with many negative behaviors that are prohibited in the Wikipedia community. You do not just participate there, you actively advocate for Wikipediocracy here on Wikipedia and repeatedly imply it's not as bad as others think and others should join it instead of criticizing it (for example using the words I quoted above). You contribute to the problem and deny responsibility, and you currently receive justified criticism in the place where you did so. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't engage in the name calling or any of that, but it does happen. And do you push back against that and try to stop it? Or do you come here and write apologia about it? -- asilvering (talk) 01:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like this seriously downplays the doxxing and harassment that comes from WPO. They're so casual about dropping real life information that helps to identify users, particularly administrators, that they feel are not doing a good job or who they disagree with. While the site may have had good intentions to start with, it's a toxic tire fire that can't be taken seriously as a "criticism site" when it allows such conduct. By allowing such conduct the admins and mods on the site and endorsing said behaviour, and that's entirely not okay. Their actions and harassment have forced folks off the site, a notable recent example being GeneralNotability, the now former arb. Downplaying it is inappropriate when the main person who does so is protected and reports on the site go absolutely nowhere. Hey man im josh (talk) 00:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, a person might say something on WPO that they would never say here, because it would be outside policy to do so. This is not a crime, although in some extreme cases it could and should lead to on-wiki sanctions. That may be so, but those who wish to say such things on WPO should consider how it might affect community trust here. They should also know that the so-called "hidden forum" is anything but. Anything that might be pushed into the "hidden forum" should probably be kept to themselves if they want to maintain the community's trust. If you want to engage someone who is criticizing you, step up and do it in the place where they are doing so. I disagree with this statement. If an editor is going to an external forum specifically to bypass WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASS in their criticism (which based on my observations seems to be a big reason people flock to WPO in the first place), it should absolutely be made known to the larger Wikipedian community. - ZLEAT\C01:07, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's laughable behaviour that makes you the subject of a joke if you can't post your criticism on site considering we don't ban or block folks for criticism. They typically just want an echo chamber to complain based on feels. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:10, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate reasons that an editor might want to take their criticism to WPO rather than Wikipedia, but I have yet to think of any. - ZLEAT\C01:13, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose you're right, but that doesn't make me feel any better about the idea of editors in good standing, including admins, willingly associating themselves with the site. - ZLEAT\C01:28, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hey man im josh I would say the statement that people on Wikipedia have never been blocked or banned unfairly for criticism here is so blantantly untrue that it betrays a complete lack of awareness of how many issues Wikipedia has had over the years. I'm curious how you would characterize the Fram debacle if not as the perfect case study of that happening on Wikipedia? And that's just the most obvious, high-visibility example. There's no shortage of less-established editors getting booted off the project after presenting criticism of more established users, and it was only through Wikipediocracy or wider news attention (i.e. outside criticism) that any redress was had. The idea that "criticism of Wikipedia should be handled on Wikipedia" is an admirable one, but in practice Wikipedia has not provided an effective way to do that, especially when you can wield civility and outing protections as a cudgel to block those who disagree with you. Everyone here complaining about Beeb's argument should be able to explain what they would do differently in all those cases and how in the year 2024 those problems have magically disappeared, nevermind something as bold as saying they've never happened at all. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk12:51, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As has been pointed out previously, ArbCom did not and cannot revoke someone's VRT access. The VRT administrators make their own decisions. There was no request made to the VRT admins to do anything about that access and so Beeblebrox claiming ArbCom revoked it remains incorrect. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:16, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My entire point is that I don't know why you can't login because it had nothing to do with ArbCom. Ask the VRT admins. They're the ones who have the tools to have done something and so they would know how it came about. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:32, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll concede the point even though I can't imagine how their isn't some connection.
A user who is an Arbitrator, CheckUser, or Oversighter may be granted access to VRTS queues associated with those roles. When the user no longer holds those roles, their access to the associated queues will be removed. If the user does not have access to any other queues, their account will be closed. (A user could have access to other queues if they applied through the normal process.) See m:Volunteer Response Team/Access policy. —Emufarmers(T/C)13:34, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A loss of trust is a loss of trust. If an editor were elected to a high-trust position, and followed up by not only breaching that trust, but by breaching it to divulge confidential information (even if not PII) to a den of indeffed hyenas who revel in harassment, then trust is breached in all forms, in all places. It's the same reasoning behind all the blacklisted sources at RSP: if the source posts fake news too many times, it's deprecated as a whole - never mind if it has a 100% accuracy while reporting the weather. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (talk to me!/my edits) 02:57, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Natural justice says dispute resolvers must be unbiased and be perceived as being unbiased. Otherwise, editors feeling biased-against won't accept the Arbitration Committee's decisions. This is incompatible with full transparency, if you're being transparent about which editors you dislike. It is a higher standard than most editors, but is one the committee has made clear to you. You're a good editor, I voted for you in the past, and your actions don't conflict with being part of the Wikipedia community. But you can't be a committee member and say what you say. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply)04:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not entirely sure whether this is an apologetic on behalf of the author or others (or both). Either way, unfocused and distracted to the detriment of the essay, and as no real new argument was presented, this is a fairly low-quality op-ed, all things considered. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the last section, Arbcom had ruled prior to your removal that misusing one functionary tool can lead to the removal of all functionary tools. Quoting from your support vote: "Being a functionary is a position of the utmost trust, and I simply do not trust their judgement anymore." II feel this applies in your case. Atavoidirc (talk) 18:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I was asked about the publication of one of my essays in the Signpost, I'd consider saying "no" if the essay was no longer something I'd publish in the Signpost with my name above it. Or if it hadn't been suitable nor meant for wider publication in the first place. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 01:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then I applaud the Signpost for bringing this essay to light. The more eyes are drawn to the WPO issue, the better. - ZLEAT\C03:25, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How often is someone sanctioned at WPO for their over-the-top hysterical behavior? Perhaps a ban from the forum when criticism becomes bullying and harrassment? I guess it's okay to not have rules against such things because "Wikipedia is full of rules" and it's enough to simply "discourage" people from doing such things. Is this truly a site you want to be associated with? - ZLEAT\C04:48, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised that Signpost thinks this "people were mean to me when I was being a dick" rubbish is worthy of posting under their masthead. The discussions on WPO are often bullying, abusive and can include doxxing and even posting of pornographic images for the lolz. That anyone engaged in that thinks it should not affect how they are perceived and trusted here is frankly ludicrous; of course anyone involved in that sort of behaviour should lose their functionary privileges. That they seem to think people should be expected to go and run the gauntlet of that abuse rather than expect action to be taken against their abusers under the UCoC (and its predecessors) seems to me to be arrogant, self-centred privilege. One might say the same of this essay, frankly. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk)23:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RE: and even posting of pornographic images for the lolz — this in contradistinction to Commons, which posts pornographic images for science. El_C04:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, here is Beebs' one and only misstep in the Melodramatic Kafka Case... He should have had his discussion with the impacted interrogator via WPO direct messages rather than as a public post. That was a misstep. His intentions were pure and his actions were righteous — he just didn't need to alert the guy being steamrolled why he was being steamrolled the way that he did. That is all. Continue with the with hyperventilating and vituperation. —Tim Davenport /// Randy from Boise on WPO /// Carrite (talk) 04:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Beeblebrox, you do good work as an admin. But whenever I hear anything about Wikipediocracy, I can't help but picture a room full of Comic Book Guys from The Simpsons. This philosophy that people are entitled to be awful and have little tantrums, and that everyone else is in the wrong for getting upset about it? Doesn't help with that image. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not quite right. The old grumpy guys in the balcony on The Muppet Show are closer. Beebs and I are both in our 60s, I believe. Vig is probably as old and Bill has 6 or 8 years on us... Part of the critique of WP by WPO has a bit of a generational twang, I speculate. Carrite (talk) 04:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comic Book Guy's shtick is that he's a middle-aged guy who never matured so he's pretentious and criticizes everyone else, especially on the internet. Statler and Waldorf certainly aren't characters to emulate, but they don't have that "pitiful" aspect. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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