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Could we make a G10 - advertising? --M@thwiz2020 22:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that often an advertisign page can be NPOV'd into a decent article, if the company/product is notable. DES ^(talk) 22:34, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

True, but there arent nearly enough people willing to invest time making these kind of articles good. Plus to NPOV one of these you essentially have to re-write it completely, hence the original content is worthless and should be deleted. Consider also that I just trawled the last datadump, and found there are ~15,000 articles with less than one link, no tags and no bold text, in other words there are ~15,000 totally unwikified and untouched articles, a good portion of which are spammy crap, but just not speediable. We really dont need any more of this. Martin 22:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

DES is unrealistically optimistic, I'd agree - but the real problem here is that it makes admins make subjective judgements - and we are janitors not judges :\. WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 22:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

(after Edit Conflict) I have edited several pages ther were obvious ads when submitted into reasonaple NPOV stubs while on new-page patrol, so i think I know whereof I speak. This can't be done with every ad page -- far from it. But enough that a speedy criterion is a bad idea IMO. I also agree with Martin, CSD's ashould be very clear-cut, bright-line sorts of rules. DES ^(talk) 22:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could adopt a tag n' bag policy (a phrase I stole from David I believe) on this kind of stuff then, whereby admins can only delete this when it is tagged as such by someone else. In other words it would mean 2 pairs of eyes see each deletion. Martin 22:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• However, considering that most advertising is for small-time business and/or linkspam for websites, we could expand A7 (once more) to deal with companies and websites that fail to assert notability. The average city's greengrocer is not notable, and neither is the average geocities subpage. Radiant_>|< 22:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  • True, but again, thsi soemtimes needs research. One of the first articels i ever nomited for deltion was what I thought was a non-notable retail company. It turnd out they were huge in their niche. If it needs much research, it probably shouldn't be a CSD. DES ^(talk) 22:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes. Especially for real-life companies this is likely not a good idea (especially since such pages and deletions are relatively rare). There may be a point in some kind of speedy deletion for websites, though; we do get a lot of linkspam, and articles on minor blogs, forums and such. Radiant_>|< 23:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
• I am also inclined to oppose this proposal. We've had many articles nominated for deletion as advertising which were not ultimately deleted. I don't see a bright line that would be so obvious that it could be fairly and consistently applied by every admin. These should continue to go through the AFD process. Rossami (talk) 23:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
• Not only is it highly subjective which advertisement articles can be saved, but I see no evidence that these are a significant load on AfD. Deco 03:03, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
• At the moment I'd support adding it as A10 (as adverts rarely show up out of main namespace). Something to the effect of "An article which was recently created, and was clearly and blatantly added for the sole purpose of advertizing a product or service". Stifle 09:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Of course, we now have {{prod}} which tends to do the job. Stifle 09:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Does CSD-R2 (redirections to userspace) apply to shortcuts? eg. see: U:DG, WP:ANONX, WP:AYB, WP:BEEFSTEW, WP:BOMB, WP:CCW, WP:CDVF, WP:CUNT, WP:INT, WP:JVS, WP:LAVT, WP:LVAT, WP:PCW, WP:RAUL. These sorts of things may tend to be more or less vanity links, though I know that some of them (WP:INT, WP:RAUL) were created by independent users in good faith. In my opinion, they shouldn't all be obvious deletes. --Interiot 19:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• To my knowledge, for practical purposes, WP:ANYTHING links are considered part of Wikipedia namespace (even though technically they're not). I have never seen a U:ANYONE link before, but I'd consider them part of userspace. Links from Wikispace to Userspace are not speedies, but are fair game for WP:RFD. Radiant_>|< 19:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• Because these redirects are not in the article namespace, they are not eligible. I do not make a judgement on whether they should be, but that's the letter of the rule. Deco 19:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

As Radiant! said, they technically are in the main namespace (they show up in various Special: pages when you filter them by the main namespace, they appear in the database as namespace=0), but policy-wise are treated as effectively not in the mainspace.

So if U:DG counts as a shortcut, might things like Browse Wikipedia and Elmo12456:FOTWL be considered borderline shortcuts and thus should go to RFD instead of being speedied? Or should they be speedied because they're not WP:, U:, T:, C:, H:, or P:?

Similarly, even though things like David Gerard and Zscout370 are in the mainspace, should they be considered to be effectively the same as {{deletedpage}}, and thus should be left alone? (DG added his with the comment that it was intending to prevent creation of that page, and Zscout370 was created after it was vandalized by WOW)

(sorry for the weird questions... I originally thought that the CSD-R2 rule was relatively straightfoward, and that an SQL query would be an effective way to do some cleanup) --Interiot 21:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• All those other things you mention are redirects (or shortcuts, there's no real difference) from mainspace to userspace, which qualifies them for speedy. The only reason why "WP:" is considered "Wikipedia:" namespace is because most anybody assumes it's just an abbreviated name, and that's what the ton of shortcuts are based on. Actually I don't think we should have shortcuts for templates, categories or userpages, and have some doubts about help and portal pages, and would recommend RFD'ing the (relatively small) lot of those. David's shortcut is actually made by Stevertigo, and qualifies as a user test. Zscout's page was created once, which hardly warrants a {{deletedpage}}. Radiant_>|< 21:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• There's currently 32 U: T: C: H: P: shortcuts, and 39 WT: shortcuts. They're all listed here because I don't quite understand the issues enough to bring it up in WP:RFD myself. The obvious userspace CSD-R2 ones though I can do, I'll put that on my todo list. --Interiot 22:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll throw them in. WT is short for Wikipedia_Talk, though, those are well-established. Radiant_>|< 22:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed we get a lot of AfDs for non-notable websites, could we expand A7 slightly to explicitly include Websites that do not have a claim to notability per WP:WEB. At the moment they have to go through AfD, which, IMO, is nonsense. What do people think? Werdna648^T/_C\^@ 23:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree: A7 should be expanded to websites. We have criteria for notability (WP:WEB), so it's easy to determine which sites are/aren't notable.¹ There's no need to make all those websites go through AfD. I would also support an expansion to companies, since we have WP:CORP, but this would be a bit more difficult. Mushroom 20:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

¹Why can't I ever explain myself clearly? That sentence doesn't belong there :(

I oppose this, as what qualifies for notability on web sites is highly debated, and unclear. Please take a look at the record when people cite WP:WEB. Also, A7 focuses on the *claim*, not whether it meets a criteria. If you're suggesting we should speedy delete things for failure to meet WP:WEB or WP:CORP, then you're talking about an entirely new speedy category. Note,that we *dont'* speedy things for failure to meet WP:BIO, and never have. We speedy articles on persons with no *claim* of notability. Any claim, even a claim that doesn't meet WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC is sufficient. For instance, a person with just one album on a major record label may fail WP:MUSIC and WP:BIO but is not an A7. Also, it seems the typical web site article actually does make a claim of notability, but the problem is determining if it is verifiable, which is something that needs investigation, and is subject to debate. --Rob 20:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

We also need to keep in mind that these different WP sections are guidelines, not policy. The weaknesses of many of these, such as WP:MUSIC and WP:WEB mean that any expansion of A7 causes these flawed guidelines to be taken as policy, even though they aren't. Better to send possibly non-notable websites (and groups, but I missed out on that discussion) to a place to get them cleaned up and better established than allowing for the fast deletion before people may notice it. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 16:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I also oppose this. The sort of checking required to see if an article meets WP:CORP or WP:WEB automatically discounts it from a speedy delete, IMO. --Deathphoenix 20:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, I have read WP:WEB, and it seems quite clear to me.² I'm not saying that we shouldn't focus on the claim: in fact I think we should keep this new criterion inside A7. I perfectly understand the concept of "claim" of notability, and I never speedied anything for failure to meet WP:BIO. Not all articles about websites claim notability, exactly as not all biographies claim notability, and it's the same for bands, and for companies. I found an article some time ago that said "xxx" is a small web design company with 6 employees, and provided a link to its website. That article made no claims of notability, but I couldn't delete it. This is exactly what I'm talking about, and I would like to know if/why you don't agree with this. Mushroom 21:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

²Note that this refers to "Please take a look at the record when people cite WP:WEB" above, and it isn't related with the following sentences.

Reply: What you find to be typical, I find to be exceptional. I see most web sites in AFD making some claim. In fact the worst potential web site articles, tend to make the biggest and most bogus of claims. While, before the last A7 expansion, the typical band AFD involved bands making no claims whatsoever. If you see what I don't, I don't know what to say to you. We shouldn't constantly make new rules, because of the odd inconvenience. Also, note that before the expansion to include {{nn-band}} there was a long, long, stable pattern of deletion of nn-bands, that rarely were contested. Web sites are an area of much less agreement. A7 is all about stopping those who never tried to pretend they were notable, but just don't know we required notability. Many people make band aricles here, in good faith, hoping to "get a break". Most don't lie, or pretend they're internationally famous, if they're not. But web sites do regularly do exactly that. Its the bragging web sites that are the problem. The modest web sites, aren't, and a few AFDs for them, is no big deal. --Rob 21:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I never said it is typical, but it happens sometimes. And I see no inconvenience in making this small change to A7. See my proposal below. I understand that this wouldn't solve the main problem (spam), but this can't be solved without: a total rewrite of A7, with clear guidelines for notability, and I don't like this idea (and many other editors oppose it, by the way) or a G10 for advertising, and this is discussed above. Mushroom 21:53, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose full stop. During the discussion to get WP:WEB up to guideline status consensus formed around the position that the guidelines should in no way form the basis for a speedy deletion criterion. Hiding talk 21:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Even if I didn't explain myself clearly, my last paragraph makes it clear that I don't think the guidelines should form the basis for anything. In fact I'm proposing to extend A7 to anything that doesn't assert notability, or at least to some more categories: websites and companies. No guidelines involved. Mushroom 21:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I apologise, we edit conflicted and my comment is in response to the proposal from Werdna648 and is not directed at you. Hiding talk 21:34, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a legitimate proposal, as many websites hit AfD on a regular basis, but to make it into CfD it would need to be strictly limited to a set of conditions that will almost never result in a false positive. I can't imagine any such conditions at the moment, but something to think about. Deco 21:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

This is my current proposal for A7:

Unremarkable people or groups. An article about a real person, group of people, company, band, club or website that does not assert the importance or significance of its subject. If the assertion is disputed or controversial, it should be taken to AFD instead. I withdraw this proposal.

Obviously this wouldn't make a big difference since most new articles about websites and companies are advertising, but it could be useful in a small number of cases and it would do no harm. Mushroom 21:43, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I tend to oppose this. almost all articels about websites, even those that are fairly obvious vanity or spam, include soemthing that is at elast arguably a claim of notability, so if we are going to follow the A& "no claim" rule at all strictly, this woudl not be of much use. And if ther is any attempt to speedy articels about websites on the grounds that they are not in fact notabel, we instatly run into the problems of verification -- this is not IMO the kind of bright-line procedure where speedy deletion is generally appropriate. DES ^(talk) 21:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I oppose too. This criterion seems to be expanding at a noticable rate. Let's either limit it to people or expand it all the way out to any article which does not assert notability. Most articles make some assertion of notability, and I'd rather we placed the burden on afd than on drv. Hiding talk 21:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Then what about this:

Unremarkable subjects. An article that does not assert the importance or significance of its subject. If the assertion is disputed or controversial, it should be taken to AFD instead. I withdraw this proposal.

I don't understand why this should be limited to people. Any article that doesn't claim notability should be speedily deleted. Mushroom 22:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I oppose. Sorry, I've always opposed this criterion, I believe determining an assertion of notability is something too subjective to be left to individual admins. That said, I would rather this proposal were adopted than a different one which targeted specific categories of articles besides people. My problem is that some people will speedy an article which reads blah blah are a football club, whilst others will expand it so it reads blah blah are a football club. They have won the European Cup, there National League twice and their leading scorer is currently Captain of his national team. Or blah blah are a football club notable for having beaten Very Notable Team 1-0 in a cup competition in 1927. I guess I just expect that if we're improving Wikipedia we're attempting to add, not remove, wherever possible, within the boundaries of verifiability, NPOV and NOR, obviously. I feel this criterion is subjective, and as such is inappropriately used at times and that any expansion thus expands the scope of such subjective use, to the possible detriment of the project. Hiding talk 22:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I may seem incoherent, but I agree with you. I don't like A7 and this is why I think it should rewritten. In its current form I find it unuseful and problematic. It gives too much power and too much responsibility to sysops. An article may claim notability and be not-notable, and another article may not contain any claim and be way more notable. While I have proposed an extension of A7 to anything, I would equally support a deletion of A7 if it can't be changed and made better. In fact, I have currently decided to abstain from any judgements based solely on A7, since I find it too difficult to decide what a claim of notability is. Example:

John Doe is very notable in his neighborhood.

This is a claim of notability, but what kind of notability? A sysop is forced to decide if John Doe is notable. Mushroom 07:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps some middle ground is needed. Maybe we're even looking at it the wrong way here, perhaps we should expand CSD A3 (which provides for deletion of articles with no content other than a link)? In practice a lot of this kind of stuff is speedy deleted already... there are new pages added all the time with nothing but a few unformatted sentences about some "up and coming" forum and a link to it. When this kind of stuff does go to AfD, it's the typical case where the only support votes are from people connected to the site in question... and obviously these are very prone to cause minor sockpuppet-fueled drama at AfD.

Perhaps a criteria for speedy deletion should be along the lines of "Short, uncited articles that serve only to describe and promote an external link". As this thread shows, making website articles in general fall under CSD might cause a whole lot of problems. --W.marsh 00:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This seems a good idea, since it would cover a lot of spam articles that should be deleted. But what if the site is notable? Example:

Imdb.com is a website that lists all movies ever made.

Mushroom 07:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• • That's a perennial misunderstanding. If someone writes a totally worthless article on an otherwise interesting subject, then in order to create a good article on that subject one has to start from scratch anyway. Hence, it is entirely irrelevant if the previously worthless content is deleted or not. Besides, this is already covered in existing criteria. If someone writes an article about Julius Caesar with the sole content "check out juliuscaesar.com" then it will be deleted for lack of content. And eventually someone will write a good article regardless. Remember that people aren't stupid; just because something can be deleted doesn't mean it will be. Radiant_>|< 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Absolute, total, complete oppose. The last expansion is causing a lot of otherwise notable groups to fall by the wayside because people would rather tag a group as nn than do some research, and an adoption of this will cause even more problems. Absolutely, positively not, and we should also start rethinking the prior expansion on groups now that it's been in place for a while. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 16:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• So many website articles are deleted on a regular basis that it's at least worth brainstorming about. However, unlike for e.g. people, we have a very easy test for websites: Google. While I'm not saying that google should ever be the all-end test of websites, it sounds safe to state that an article about any website that gets less than 1000 google hits is delete-worthy. And it would catch some of the junk on AFD. Or would anyone have a counterexample? Radiant_>|< 00:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The Google Test is never, ever suitable as the sole means of judging the notability of a topic. Deco 01:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Google isn't appropriate for, say, an 1800's musician from Iran, but applying Google to websites, I think I more or less agree with Radiant. Is that the total number of hits, or with very similar search results ommited? --Interiot 02:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not exactly about notability... this is about a criteria that seperates the unanimous delete AfDs from the ones that actually might meet WP:WEB if discussed. Can you think of any websites that don't get 1,000 google results but meet WP:WEB? I can't either. I thought the google criteria seemed awful at first glance, but it actually makes sense. --W.marsh 02:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I continue to oppose. I can't think of an example, but I'm entirely certain that examples would materialize if such a rule were instated. A rule like this would allow a website with limited Google hits to be deleted without the slightest consideration given to mitigating factors. Deco 02:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• If you can't think of an example, your assertion is probably false. Also, your claim that anything that is a candidate for speedy deletion is in fact deleted without further consideration is most definitely false. Articles are rescued from CAT:CSD and improved on a daily basis. Radiant_>|< 11:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

An obscure, yet notable, subject is going to get low Google hits. Not worthy at all. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 16:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I consider two reliable sources that I find through my library, outside of Google, that give informative independent information about a topic, to often be more significant than 100,000 (reported) google hits. We shouldn't be rewarding people for SEO tactics. Also, keep in mind, many sites change their names, and search on the new name fails, but the old one gives high results. Also keep in mind that no web sites gives more than 1000 *unique* Google hits, as that's all Google shows[1]. So, when you say "more than a 1000" you must apparently mean more than 1000 non-uniques, which is utterly worthless, as one page on one web site, can appear as hundreds of thousands of hits (due to something called infinite namespace). --Rob 02:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The point of CSD isn't to worry about the articles that pass (eg. reward the SEO's), the point is to choose objective criteria that makes sure almost no article fails when it should have gone on to AFD instead. Small-time websites that start their SEO campaign with Wikipedia, instead of at least starting by spamming other sites first, will at least be caught by this. --Interiot 03:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

To the contrary - if they're spamming Wikipedia, they're probably also bombing Google with all sorts of fake sites. I expect them to have plenty of Google hits. Deco 03:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• Look over AFD and you'll see this generalization is false. Most articles on webpages in WP aren't about googlebombers, but about Joe Average people who create a l33t fansite or forum about whatever and expect a Wikipedia article will impress their friends. Radiant_>|< 11:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

My counter (for the above) would be for reference sites. Consider the Google result for pghbridges.com This site gets 140 or so inward links (some from us) as you can see. But it's a rich vein of material, well sourced and thorough, if you are working on bridges (Coraopolis Bridge for example, which I just did a lot of work on tonite) and tunnels in the Pittsburgh area. The HAER Library of Congress source, that it gets some of its material from, has a lot of great material but you have to OCR the .tifs... this site author already did that. So this is an awesome, and easily verified as correct, (because you can go check HAER and see if he OCRed them right or not!) reference site. I am of the opinion that it needs a writeup, if only to document why it's a good reference, and what sort of stuff it can be relied on to have, how far out it covers, and how to use it. Now, I'm still a newb, maybe that's a wikipediaspace thing rather than main articlespace but that site is, I allege, notable and verifyable, but fails the google test utterly (it also has no forums and therefore no users to count). I wish there was a site like it for other areas (BTW: other sites I like for bridges are structurae.de and bridgemeister.com... both would also fail the google test badly but both deserve mention, perhaps in our bibliography if we have one rather than in articlespace???) DO we have a bibliography or a place to document references (these are documented in the bridges wikiproject already I think) that's generic? ++Lar: t/c 05:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• Well frankly, the sites you mention are probably good for a note in the bibliography (which we have in most articles, they tend to have a section of weblinks at the bottom), but I doubt it'd gain much support for an article of its own.
  • As it turns out, there already IS an article for structurae.de it was just written without the .de on the end: Structurae. Does that change your view at all? ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
• By the way you know what's worse than websites with a lack of google hits? Internet memes with a lack of google hits. Radiant_>|< 11:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
  • HAER already existed as an article, and has for some time [2]. I just created the other one, pghbridges.com so we'll see what happens. I am trying to get better at footnoting and referencing (I think I'm pretty good already, but maybe not) And to your second point, could not agree more. My first AfD nom was a neologism, and I am happy to say it sailed through. ++Lar: t/c 18:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
    • As a note pghbridges.com got nomed for AfD within hours, if not minutes, of its creation. Now it's getting pileons from people who seem not to have thought about the points I made about reference sites. Perhaps projectspace subpages are better places for collecting reference sites but that's too obscure, I think. A master bibliography or a category or something might be a good thing. Good reference sites can be hard to find. ++Lar: t/c 17:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Seems to me that they have thought about it, but simply disagree with you. A list of reference sites would be useful in a WikiProject, but that doesn't mean they all need articles. And this rather proves my point that websites below a certain Google/Alexa threshold are snowballs in AFD, and thus might as well be a speedy. Radiant_>|< 19:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Maybe, maybe not. Some certainly give the appearance of not having thought about it, just piling on. ++Lar: t/c 20:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Given the comments on the delete votes, I don't see a lot of thought at all. Parroting various guidelines and bolding the vote isn't really much thought at all. In other news, WP:SNOW may be the most defeatist proposal I've seen on this site yet. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 20:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
          • Well, for comparison, find an AFD on a notable website that has at least one vote to delete, and see if people pile on delete votes there without thinking about it. I'm not sure what you mean regarding a "defeatist proposal", the only point of WP:SNOW is to avoid bureaucracy if the outcome is already clear. Radiant_>|< 21:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
            • I mean that it's defeatist. Instead of letting things run their course and allowing for the possibility of information coming to light to change things, we just shrug and say "Yup, looks good to me." And it's funny that you mention internet memes above, as that's an excellent example. When old memes like the Prime Number Shitting Bear get deleted because, well, it only gets 400 google hits today when it was popular 5 years ago, there's a problem in the system. The false assumption that Google = notable is rather arbitrary, silly, and too front-loaded. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 21:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
            • I think you're missing the point here. I'm not saying we should block the chance of new information. I'm saying that if it becomes obvious that a certain well-defined class of articles (nearly) always ends up deleted when put on AFD, then those might as well be speedily deleted to save everybody's time. I am not (as yet) asserting that certain memes or websites are such a class, I'm only suggesting that they might be. Most dissenters so far are arguing rhetoric and principle here, rather than finding counterexamples, which would actually be far more convincing. Radiant_>|< 22:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
              • It's more that I get the point and find it to be less than compelling. Any policy that's going to sit there and speed up a removal process already flawed by inherent laziness in the system is something that's completely wrong and somewhat defeatist as opposed to actually searching for solutions. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 03:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
                • Well, if you have a cure for the "inherent laziness in the system" please let us know. Radiant_>|< 12:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
                  • How about instead of pushing for faster deletion or faster ending of policy, we articles are actually reviewed to see if they meet standards before reaching a point where they can be AfD'd? If notability can't be established within the article per a more detailed review, it then goes to AfD to be debated. Either that, or it goes to AfD with the new information presented (or lack thereof) to help get a clearer consensus. Either way, it's much, much better than just saying "speedy it" or resigning ourselves to a snowball effect. Actually, you know, asking people to improve articles instead of deleting them can't be the worst thing in the world. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 13:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
• (moving out for indent reasons) Do you mean like RC patrollers putting something in the talk page of the article first, giving it a day or two to see what happens, if it's not clearly a CsD, instead of immediately putting it up for AfD? User:Haukurth put together an excellent template ( Template:Needs-verification) for just that purpose but it hasn't gone into wide use yet. There is a fair bit of discussion on this topic at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion as well. Obviously I'm biased a bit... ++Lar: t/c 13:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
  • We do ask people to improve articles (Category:Wikipedia maintenance). The problem lies in finding a suitable balance that (1) doesn't cause deletion of worthwhile material (but note that a worthless article on a good subject is not in itself worthwhile material), and (2) makes it easy to get rid of inappropriate junk, because we get plenty of that. And once more, you misunderstand WP:SNOW if you think that that's what it's used for. Radiant_>|< 14:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure if that was addressed to me, I haven't mentioned WP:SNOW, and this may not be the right place to talk about this but I'm just thinking that some stuff goes too AfD too fast under the current process. ++Lar: t/c 14:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Oops, that was to Badlydrawnjeff. Yes, some articles are put on AFD too fast, but the main reason for that is that Category:Wikipedia cleanup is backlogged for a year and half. Radiant_>|< 14:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
        • Mainly because AfD has become Wiki:Cleanup in a lot of ways. The problem with the size of AfD isn't the amount of non-notable articles that get created, but the number of notable articles that get thrown on there. To delete more articles or throw policy out the window for what's arbitrarily decided is a foregone conclusion isn't really going to solve anything, especially when I think much of our Speedy Deletion policy could be construed as a "don't bite the newcomers" violation. As opposed to outright deleting articles that make no initial claim to notability (there's absolutely zero excuse for pghbridges.com to be listed on AfD in less than a half hour after creation), we should be working toward making sure they should be deleted, not making sure they are deleted. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 14:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
          • Then I invite you to watch CAT:CSD and/or the deletion log for a couple of days to find out the amount of crap that gets added to Wikipedia on a daily, or even hourly, basis. We don't need additional bureaucracy for that, rather the opposite. Before you judge anyone, walk a mile in their shoes. Radiant_>|< 14:29, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
            • You think I haven't seen what's there? Quite the heady assumption. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 15:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
              • I think that, since you recommend additional bureaucracy for deletion, you are unaware of the sheer amount of necessary deletion going on that would be severely hampered by the very bureaucracy you propose. Radiant_>|< 17:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
                • Well, that's an incorrect assumption. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 17:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
                • Interestingly enough, the proposal you started up is almost exactly what I was thinking of. I like it. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 17:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
• (de-indenting again) I tend to oppose speedy deletion of website articles because I think it's too subjective. And yes, I'm a deletionist. {{prod}} does the job. Stifle 09:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• There's an overemphasis on the Google test, and invented article titles are often deemed "neologisms" deserving deletion even when the topic itself is quite notable and a rename is more suitable. The Prime Number Shitting Bear was a very popular meme that I was sorry to see vanish for no well thought out reason. Deco 23:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
  • • Please cite some examples of false claims of an article being about a neologism. Internet memes are always popular to some people, and unless they actually become widespread (q.v. AYBABTU) this is indistuingishable from linkspam. Radiant_>|< 00:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Here's one: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adequacy Style Troll. I was pretty much the only real contributor who voted to keep it, but I still think it should have been kept. Several people voted to delete based solely on the name, but the name was invented; I suggested Trolling on Adequacy.org as a more suitable name (which also fails the Google Test, but is more clearly invented). Deco 01:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Okay, several people claim this is a neologism, and you claim that this is a false accusation. A brief websearch shows that this word was in use in 2003, so it's not exactly new. However, the same search indicates that nobody much ever uses that term. Hence, as a meme, it's a failure - unless you have evidence to the contrary that I haven't seen yet. Some people might term it a proto- or paleo-logism, but the term "unstable neologism" seems very appropriate. Radiant_>|< 03:31, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
        • My claim is not that the article title is not a neologism, but that like many such as History of Spain, it is not intended to be a well-known term, but an invented title (albeit a poorly chosen one). Sometimes a well-known concept simply doesn't have a widely-accepted name, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't write about it. I recently discussed this somewhere else. Deco 17:27, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
          • This article may not be the best example... reading over it, I note a lot of it being original research or a howto-guide to trolling. It is also partly written in the first person, lacks sources, seems to be a copy/paste job and describes irrelevant parts of culture on Kuro5hin. Note that "neologism" is hardly the only reason cited by people voting to delete, and note that a sock invasion on an AFD has a tendency to backfire (on grounds that if an argument is not supported by logic but instead by force, it is likely wrong). So I am not at all convinced as to your claim that "invented article titles are often deemed "neologisms" deserving deletion even when the topic itself is quite notable". Radiant_>|< 23:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
            • You're right that there were legitimate reasons for deleting that article, and it probably wasn't solely due to the article title not turing up search results. I didn't actually intend this to be an argument against your proposal. I disagree with your proposal on the grounds that you're attempting to establish an objective measure of notability that is useful but not suitable by itself for justifying unilateral deletion - I don't have an example, but I'm absolutely sure they exist. CSD is intended only for rules that both significantly decrease the load on AfD and almost never result in deletion of useful content. Deco 01:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
• In any case, unless I missed something, neologisms are not speedy-deletable, so perhaps this discussion belongs on the Deeltion Policy page, or the pump or some other palce for discussion general deletion policy? DES ^(talk) 00:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The reason we're discussing it here is that I asserted that any article about a website or internet meme of which the subject gets less than 1000 google hits would be a snowball case on AFD, and thus would be a reasonable criterion for speedy deletion. I have yet to hear a example to the contrary, or a solid counterargument that isn't empty rhetoric. Radiant_>|< 00:07, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh ok I missed the conention, that is relevant. I do think that a once popular and important but now declined site might well get less than 1000 hits on a current search, but still be notable for historical impact. No concrete examples off the top of my head, though. DES ^(talk) 00:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
      • See, now that is a reasonable point. However, most articles on websites/netmemes that turn up on AFD state to be about current memes. Thus, restricting a CSD to that would work (the point after all being to obviate the need for repetitive debate). Radiant_>|< 00:32, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
        • There I agree with you, an allegedly current internet meme that gets few google hits pretty obviously isn't a notable membe and can be speedied, adn this is indeeed a common case. An allegedly currently popular website supposedly notable largely for its popularity ditto. A website that reports on significant research or carries significant and relaible information in a narrow field might be notable/significnat/encyclopedic despite having relatively few hits, IMO, but again i don't have a specific example to offer. the number 1000 is of course arbitrary, and might be tweaked, but I ahve no particuarly quarral with it. DES ^(talk) 00:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

See here for a discussion of how C1 applies to stub-categories, in particular when they contain (only) a stub template (and no articles), and whether it should be clarified as regards said application, on way or another. Alai 00:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought it germane here, so please notice Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Mass_PDF_upload. Would it be wise to try and develop some kind of CSD for images that violate WP:NOT in this manner? Thanks. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 17:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what to do when I come across potential images that fall into this critera. Should any image with the "with permission" or "commercial use only" uploaded after May 19, 2005 be labled for speedy? This is what assume from Jimbo's message regarding the manner. I'm looking for clarification so I can feel free to label such images for speedy. Thanks. --Zsinj 08:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, that's the idea. We've been getting more stringent regarding copyright laws, at Jimbo's request. When in doubt about a particular issue, tag it {{PUI}} instead an list it on WP:PUI ("Possibly Unfree Images"). Radiant_>|< 11:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
• If you believe an image may be available under a free license, leave PUI and contact the uploader. If you don't think they'll respond, do a little hunting yourself and add a suitable tag and a link to your source if you find evidence that the work is freely licensed. You have the option of speedying on sight, but use common sense. Deco 01:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a proposed very simple way to deal with non-controversial article deletions. The proponet propses a live test in the near future. I think the idea is a good one, but that some degree of community support is needed to sanction a live test. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Proposed deletion to express your views. DES ^(talk) 17:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the vast number of pages created every hour, a substantial number of them are just defining some new word. It seems like a primary thing people new to Wikipedia want to do is define some term they and their buddies use. See Syck for an example of what I mean... it's just like "Hey, I made up some new word, here it is, Wikipedia!" Now while I personally think the article creation process should be overhauled to help inform people that creating articles like this isn't a good idea, that's beside the point here.

Is there any good way to speedy delete these articles? In practice they often are speedied, but technically they don't usually fall under a criteria for speedy deletion at present. If a word gets 0 Google results, and like in the case I cited above the article pretty much admits it's a freshly coined term not used by anyone but the creator's buddies... it's kind of silly to have to go through the process of AfD with something that will never survive it. But is there a clean way to add these to CSD, to reduce the load on AfD?

I know people aren't very keen on using Google as a criteria for deletion... so what would people think of:

Dictionary definitions that do not assert a word has ever been used outside of the limited social group that coined it

That would cover a lot of ground, really... but preclude anything that might meet WP:V or be something Wiktionary would want (by the way, they speedy delete stuff like I'm talking about). Of course this is a very rough idea and I'm just looking for comments at this point. --W.marsh 04:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems like a good idea, but I oppose on the general principle that I don't think there are enough of these articles around that AfD would significantly benefit. It's important to minimize CSD to avoid having to remember a bunch of rarely useful conditions. Deco 05:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

As you can see from this my example (I had no idea this would happen when I posted it), when they do get to AfD they get sometimes as speedies even if they don't break WP:CSD. Anyone, just from patrolling newpages, it seems like a whole lot of these are created... perhaps so many are speedied already that they don't shop up all that much on AfD. This isn't really a formal proposal though... just trying to see if my idea is totally stupid or not. --W.marsh 05:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• This seems quite reasonable. But looking over the past 3000 entries in the deletion log, I see only three articles deleted for being a neologism, two of which came from AFD. So I'd like to see a little more evidence that this actually problematic, and not already covered by existing speedies (e.g. lack of context). Radiant_>|< 09:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• Point taken, I'll try to create a list the next time I'm working on newpages during peak hours. Maybe I'm overestimating the trend. --W.marsh 15:53, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Strong support for speedying protologisms. I have seen so many of them on AFD that I have a ton of macros just for voting to delete neologisms/protologisms. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-02-06 13:06Z

Strongest possible support for this. If you ever patrol the New Pages, you'll see literally dozens of neologisms, but you're basically defenseless against them, since if you go through the tediousness of listing something on AfD, you might miss some other useless articles. Including this in CSD would make this a lot easier. --Rory096 18:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this better suited for {{prod}}? --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 18:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but people who create pages for neologisms tend to be the same ones that delete {{prod}} with no comment and no edits to the page to make it better, and you end up having to AfD it anyway. --Rory096 18:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Prod has also only been in place for a few days. I do worry a bit about speedying them when they could be legitimate just because a new user might not know exactly what it takes to reach our notability standards --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 18:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Even in a speedy, an admin decides whether it is (or can be) notable, it's not just deleted with no thought. Besides, if it is legit, somebody else would make an article that would meet the standards. --Rory096 18:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

With the former, not that I don't trust the admins, but I'm wary of that kind of control over content. The more we can reign that in, the better we are. For the latter, we both know that's not exactly true. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 18:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Umm, no. Admins do not decide if the subjet of an article is notable. Such decisions require research, and snap judgements about notability when RC or newpage patrolling leads to mistakes and good articles getting speedied. Admins read the article and decide if it qualifies for speedy; if the article asserts some form of notability I'm not going to say "well, I still think he's non-notable" and delete. If the article asserts nothing of the sort, then he could be the President of Uzbekistan and the article would still be speediable. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 02:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I would be very happy with W.marsh's proposal above, per Quarl's reasoning. A large proportion of my delete votes are on protologisms. Stifle 09:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out how to maximize the usefulness of my RC patrol time. I've been watching recentchanges and newpages trying to catch the most egregious vandalism (blanking or insertion of obscenities at major topics) and obvious newpage speedies ("Zobbo215 is the ultimate in coolness!"). It occurred to me that I might be wasting my time, because the most obvious vandalism and almost empty newpages are probably flagged by bots. My question is: are the bots so effective at catching these types of problems that I'm just wasting human resources to do a job a robot can do better? If so, how could I modify my RC patrolling to be more useful to the encyclopedia? Ben Kidwell 09:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any bots that tag pages for deletion or revert pages. Sometimes humans use bots to assist them in these tasks, but it seems like figuring out whether an edit was made in good faith is a very difficult problem to solve automatically. Deco 09:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

When I was creating {{template messages}}, I found that there is no A4, what happend to that? _→AzaToth 02:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

A4 was merged into A3 (A4 was about attempts to contact the subject of the article) – ABCD^e✉ 02:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

A number of people have been arguing that the expanded A7 allows the speedying of companies. (There's a snooty note from one such person on my talkpage now, but that's okay because my answering note was no less snooty). Now, this was clearly not the intent of the change, and even people who've played fast and loose with the CSD criteria in the past accept that; for example, User:Mushroom is above arguing that it should be expanded to include companies. Now, "groups" is kinda vague, so I propose that, if we don't want articles on corporations to be speedied for failure to even assert notability, that we make it explicit that companies aren't included. Alternatively, add corporations to the list of subjects which require an assertion of notability to avoid being shot on sight. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 03:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

See here: WP:CORP. A guideline at present. Marskell 12:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

But WP:CORP is related to AfDs, not CSD. See also: WP:MUSIC. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 12:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course, and what doesn't get Speedied often winds up on AfD instead. So you work backwards from criteria re the latter to arrive at explicit statements here. Marskell 12:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

• Before discussing this further I would like to see some links to articles on companies that (1) were AFD'ed but didn't stand a chance, or (2) were speedily deleted but arguably shouldn't have been. Radiant_>|< 14:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

• The one that prompted this was Dekid, but it's certainly not the only one I've seen lately. Arguably should have been deleted and wouldn't have survived AfD, but was also definitely not covered under A7. I'd like to see either A7 expanded to cover corporations, or modified to explicitly note that a corporation doesn't count as "a group of people" for A7. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually I would have speedied that one myself on grounds of lack of content and context. Radiant_>|< 15:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I do appreciate that. But you see the point, surely? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 15:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

• Well, yes. Okay, A7 applies to a "real person, group of people, band or club"; not a corporation, city, school or piece of fruit. On the one hand it should be obvious that anything not mentioned in CSD is therefore not a CSD. On the other hand, if a legal entity named as a corporation actually consists of a single person, it is possible to delete on that ground (not because I'm wikilawyering, but because it's common sense). In general, if one or two people are abusing a rule, it is better to get those people to stop (e.g. on WP:DRV or WP:RFC) than to make the rule more complex. Radiant_>|< 15:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Awww, don't speedy them. AfD on companies gives them a chance to be snarked (article on marginally-notable company transformed to article on notable company, after research indicates notability for corporate misdeed), see Coit Cleaners and 1928 Jewelry. It's my favorite sport... Herostratus 20:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Are there any plans to create the Wikipedia:Lost images article, or should it be removed from this project page? (Lady Serena 23:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC))

• No such plans. See Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Lost images for details. >Radiant< 23:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
  • We used to forward requests there, but it sort of became /dev/null, nothing would come out, as no one was watching the page. Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 23:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

These Two Images, Pwsafarijacket.jpg and Trenchcoatinuse.jpg have been identified for source information properly now, so they should be kept. Michael 15:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

If you have not already done so just add this info to the image page and remove the speedy tag then, people rarely check this page before speedy deleting stuff, so better to use the talk page for the page/file in question. --Sherool (talk) 19:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

CSD§I6

Image with sole purpouse of vandalism. _→AzaToth 20:53, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

IMHO G3 already covers that nicely. --Sherool (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed. Did you have any examples in mind? Or is some idiotic vandal spamming pictures of genitalia again? >Radiant< 02:48, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • The standard genitalia thingis. _→AzaToth 02:51, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Ok. Well, the thing is, Wikipedia already contains plenty images usable for vandalizing it. So there's no particular rush to delete newly uploaded images used for vandalism (except if they're copyvio etc). As long as the vandal in question is reverted and blocked (and trust me, we're fast), the images can be dropped on IFD. >Radiant< 02:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
    • IMHO G3 and some "common sense" should be enough. If someone takes an existing used image and spam it over a lot of pages it should naturaly not be deleted (such as putting an image of a chimpansee in the Bush article, or a picture of Emeror palpatine in the Pope's article and such), but if a vandal upload a new image and use it to vandalise then shoot it on sight as "G3 pure vandalism". If the image is potentialy usefull for legitemate purposes send it to IFD instead though. --Sherool (talk) 17:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I want to expand/clarify I#5 to state:

Unused copyrighted images. Images that are not under a free license or in the public domain, which are not used in any article, and which have been tagged with a template which places them in Category:Orphaned unfree images for more than seven days. Reasonable exceptions may be made for images uploaded for an upcoming article. The templates {{or-cr}}, {{or-cr-nr}}, and {{or-cr-re}} place an image in this category.

instead of the existing

Unused copyrighted images. Copyrighted images uploaded without permission of the copyright holder, or under a license which does not permit commercial use, which are not used in any article, and which have been tagged with a template which places them in Category:Orphaned fairuse images for more than seven days (so-called "orphaned fair use images"). Reasonable exceptions may be made for images uploaded for an upcoming article. The templates {{or-fu-nr}} and {{or-fu-re}} place an image in this category.

Obviously, the necessary templates and category would be created. The criterion already seems to imply the expanded version by saying simply "uploaded without permission of the copyright holder" but this is contradicted by referring to "orphaned fair use" later. Thus, I'd like to state outright the broader meaning; I can't see any reason orphan non-free images should be around, and this would make the gargantuan task of Wikipedia:Untagged images faster. I am aware this template originated from one of Jimbo's mysterious IRC/mailing list proclamations. However, I still think this change is legitimate. What do people think? Superm401 - Talk 01:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to discuss this with Jimbo and/or the Wikimedia Board, because it's an important legal issue. It seems wrong to change "not under a free license or PD" to "under a license which doesn't permit commercial use". >Radiant< 02:47, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

That's the reverse of the change I'm proposing! However, I'll notify Jimbo on his talk. Superm401 - Talk 00:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

You confused me (and apparently Radiant! as well) by putting the modified version first and the other second. It seems like a straightforward and sensible change. I wouldn't really even have a problem with being bold for such a minor change. Keep the word article bolded, though. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I've made the word "article" bold, but I'm really not a big fan of being bold, except in article space. Superm401 - Talk 01:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've made the change. Superm401 - Talk 07:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

At least for a little bit, I advise everyone to chill about this. Let's take some time to reflect on this issue as a community. That means: don't make any crazy userboxes designed to try to trip this rule, and don't go on any sprees deleting ones that already exist.

A thoughtful process of change is important.

And whatever you do, do NOT wheel war about this.--Jimbo Wales 07:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I would like to expand the CSD for User pages to include the following. Occassionally a user will have a red-linked user page (i.e., no edits to it) and sometimes incautious or ignorant users (no offense intended) will leave messages there instead of on the talk page. I propose that the message should be moved to the talk page and then the user page deleted speedily. There's no point in submitting it to AfD and it's nice to know at a glance if someone doesn't have a userpage (based on color of the link). Also, blank pages are useless. This strikes me as non-controversial. I hope I'm right. :) --Dante Alighieri | Talk 08:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've already done this. Do we really need a speedy criterion to cover this? I think that if something clearly misplaced, there's no problem in moving it and speedying the remainder (provided the history was moved along with the message). - Mgm|^(talk) 09:20, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• Actually doing a move and leaving a redirect on the user page isn't such a bad idea. Some users intentionally make their user pages redirect to their talk page, and in this case the person who left the comment might return to the user page looking for an answer. So no, an ordinary move is really better I think. Deco 10:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree. Let people who want their user pages to redirect to their talk pages do it themselves. Besides, this doesn't cover what happens when the talk page already exists. You can't Page Move in that case anyway. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• I've been doing that as well. I've cut-and-pasted text from the user page to the user talk page, then deleted the user page to restore the red link. I've also deleted some user pages of a couple of users who I've noticed had blank user pages because of this. --Deathphoenix 17:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• More formally, I would propose: "3. No content. User pages that are blank, with the only previous content being tests, vandalism, or mis-placed Talk content." --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) If you make the mistake yourself (and I have occasionally when I lost track of which page I was on), it's already speedy-deletable under case G7 (author requested). If you are cleaning up after someone else, I think you could delete it most times under case A3 because after moving the content, what's left would be blank. Unlike in the article space, you don't have to use the redirect to preserve the attribution history because Talk page comments are typically signed. You'd have to be careful to check the history, though, and make sure that the anon user wasn't playing games by blanking their own page. Users have great latitude on their own pages but that does not extend to removing comments about vandalism. Rossami (talk) 21:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • One objection and a smattering of support... I'll be adding this in in the next day or so unless some more opposition materializes. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • A3 doesn't apply in User: space. Stifle 09:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
• Seems like instruction creep to me when we already have criteria that cover the case (G7 and R3 if you want to broadly interpret the latter). Or alternatively we can expand R3 to cover redirects that were created as a result of a moving a page when it was created in the wrong location. howcheng {chat} 23:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not opposed to broadly interpreting or expanding an existing CSD, but I was under the impression that User space was "different" than article/talk space and therefore had separate rules. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 00:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
• Redlinked sigs are a symptom of the default signature code not including a link to the talk page; fix that, and you'll obviate the need for a special case here, IMO. -- nae'blis _(talk) 00:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I have seen a lot of AFDs for web forums, IRC channels, mailing lists, and other "online groups" which are clearly non-notable. Thoughts on expanding CSD to include things like web forums with only 100 members and no assertion of importance? (If A7 applies to "unremarkable online groups", it should say so explicitly, because it has been a contentious point in the past.) —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-02-06 13:00Z

I'm against it. Because of the nature of such things, they should be discussed by a wider range of people as opposed to one person tagging them CSD. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 13:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you expand on your reasoning? Why would a 5-member web forum require wider-range discussion than a 5-member band? —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-02-07 07:45Z

What is this? There is no consensus that divisive templates can be speedily deleted. You can't just add stuff to official policy without discussing it first.--God of War 18:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo just did...Voice of All^T|@|ESP 18:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you point to where, please? Nevermind. --Fang Aili 18:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• Jimbo != consensus--God of War 18:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It bothers me that Jimbo can create policy without a concensus. I don't know if that's written in WP bylaws or what. Furthermore, the community will never agree on what constitutes "divisive" (m-w definition: "creating disunity or dissension"), because most things could be constrewed as such. This new point of policy will fan the flames of disagreement. --Fang Aili 18:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[3]. He also said that:

"18:42, February 5, 2006 Jimbo Wales deleted "Template:User paedophile" (I'm sorry but just, no. I'm sure there's a CSD rule or three which covers this, but I honestly don't care. Just, no.)"

So auhh...sheesh...I wish I could get away with that.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 18:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo = big guy that you don't mess with unless you want to be desysopped.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 18:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Policy on wikipedia is supposed to come from consenus. One person changing policy like this is antithetical to a wiki.--God of War 18:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

We're an encyclopedia too, not just a wiki. —Kirill Lokshin 18:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Not to mention Jimbo is the guy in charge. He doesn't exercise it often, but he has the power to hand down the law on Wikipedia. Like it or not, Wikipedia is not public property. Sometimes, Jimbo just offers his suggestions and makes edits like a "normal" editor without caring if his edits get reverted. However, if he chooses to unilaterally lay down any policies or laws, he has that power. That's what we all agreed to when we started to use Wikipedia's servers. --Deathphoenix 18:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Per Jimbo's comments above, it is best if we have thoughtful discussion about T1 before it starts being used without hesitation. So it was mentioned on WP:AN, and we're here now. However, completely removing it is apparently not an option. [4] Personally, I think it's largely a good thing. It would be better if there were a way to make it more clear what should be deleted under T1 (even if it's informal discussion and not written policy), since well-intentioned people will probably disagree over what it covers, and because discussing policy ahead of time is probably better than discussing it after admin powers have been used. --Interiot 18:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It is largerly for the better anyway. We can discuss the exact wording...but removing it would result in likely get demoted or blocked...Voice of All^T|@|ESP 18:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Who decides what is offensive? Who decides what is inflammatory? This sets up a dangerous precedent when any one person can make those decisions. That is why we have TFD to come to a consensus about these issues. This CSD1 needs to be removed.--God of War 18:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The other answer would be to simply move the damn things to userspace, where this new criterion wouldn't apply. Then we wouldn't need to have weekly wheel wars over them. —Kirill Lokshin 18:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

No, that would be wiki-lawyering one's way out of a ban on anything other than very mild userboxes. Don't do that.

James F. (talk) 18:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Ehh, not what I meant at all. Anything offensive can still be deleted from userspace, no? —Kirill Lokshin 18:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

(triple edit conflict) Removing this from CSD is a Bad Thing. Jimbo's a nice guy who doesn't usually exercise his power, but since he said this is a CSD (with the proviso that we don't use it immediately), it is a CSD. I don't echo Voice of All's comment that Jimbo is the big guy who you don't mess with unless you want to get desysopped, but he ultimately has the power to override everyone's discussions (even if it's 100% consensus!) and implement something that he believes is for the betterment of this encyclopedia. --Deathphoenix 18:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I was misled by the name of the project. It should be then named Jimbopedia. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

ha. He doesn't do it often, and always for the good if the encyclopedia (in his opinion, anyway). --Deathphoenix 19:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• I also feel like the new CSD T1 is too vague. I would have voted against it if it were proposed through the normal process. Our policies on vandalism (or, in obvious cases, WP:IAR) seem to allow for admins to delete userboxes that are uncontroversially inappropriate. But the userbox issue has proven that controversy exists in spades. Can't we, like, use TFD and continue the discussion to reach some kind of community consensus? Is there really some plague that needs to be stamped out immediately, or else the imminent death of wikipedia follows? I feel like this is adding fuel to the fire (the CSD is—shall we say—divisive) by legitimizing controversial unilateral actions in several ways. Brighterorange 18:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • And if it's controversial, then it gets undeleted/another user/admin removes the tag, or it otherwise gets sorted out through our usual checks-and-balances. A LOT of the CSD tags can be interpreted broadly/narrowly, but we seem to manage, most of the time... -- nae'blis _(talk) 19:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• I don't believe Jimbo created any policy here. He simply used his powers to violate the rules in a very specific instance - he didn't say "add this to CSD", he effectively said "I think this is covered by CSD, but I don't care if it is or not". We would be overgeneralizing to suppose that he wants us to create a new rule based on this act. Moreover, edit summaries are a far cry from an official proclamation. Please don't make this change, at least without getting a direct statement from Jimbo authorizing this specific change. Deco 18:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree, see Jimbo's comments above. He specifically said this is a new CSD that should be discussed. --Interiot 18:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh. Well okay then. I don't really agree with almost any extension of CSD, but Jimbo is Jimbo. Deco 19:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• It's quite, quite astonishing that "clearly divisive" template can be speedied, but a clearly biased article or article topic cannot. But speedy has become much, much more virulent. The openness of WP died here at some point when I wasn't looking. I don't care if it was Jimbo's doing or not. I thought he wanted an open, accountable, and community-driven project. He apparently changed his mind. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't despair. There's a difference between a userbox, which is for users and viewed by users, and an article, which is for readers and by editors. The latter can be improved, made NPOV, put up for considered deletion, etc. A userbox which falls under this category can be speedied, edited, or recreated in a way that does not violate the guidelines. There has been plenty of time to work out a solution, and Jimbo stepped in only when things became logjammed. -- nae'blis _(talk) 19:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • It seems much more like he stepped in because quite a lot of people are in favor of not regulating, and that is an unacceptable solution. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 20:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Templates have been and will continue to be held to higher standards than either articles or userspace (compare the incidents of "fuck" in Template: to User: and mainspace). If something might be controversial, it is far better to use it only in User: and not in Template:. --Interiot 19:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• CSDs are supposed to be obvious, bright-light criteria. This is neither. there is also no consensus for any such criterion. DES ^(talk) 19:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• At the very least this should be removed until more people have a chance to debate this. This is already being used to try and speedy delete a userbox that is in the middle of an active tfd with a leaning toward keep.--God of War 19:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• If criterion T1 is targeted at userboxes, then perhaps it should be narrowed in scope to templates directed at user pages rather than article pages. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-02-06 19:15Z
  • I think that's a good idea. --Deathphoenix 19:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I think that might be a good idea too...so as to avoid any side-effects. Also, we should not be using T1 yet until it is finalized, as we can "do whatever we want" with it. Lets try to narrow it down a bit shall we?Voice of All^T|@|ESP 19:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
      • It already has been used, though for more or less extreme cases. --Interiot 19:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Most templates used in the mainspace aren't "clearly intended to be divisive and/or inflammatory". However, if they were, but they were still serving some encyclopedic purpose, I would think the encyclopedic use of the template would point towards the template being cleaned up rather than deleted. If a template isn't being used for encyclopedic purposes, and it intends to be devisive, it doesn't matter where it's put. --Interiot 19:25, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• I see this has been declared policy by fiat. Very well, jimbo has that power. But I won't tag any pages under this CSD, nor delete any pages tagged under it, until and unless there is a clear demonstration of consensus fot this change in policy, adn I urge all other admins to do likewise. DES ^(talk) 19:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I won't either. Right now, my only actions wrt these userboxes is to not use them and to vote against them on TfD. Jimbo himself has stated his desire to have us cool down and not use it immediately, and I see no reason not to folloiw his instructiones. --Deathphoenix 19:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo want's people to discuss this before applying it.

Quoting Jimbo
At least for a little bit, I advise everyone to chill about this. Let's take some time to reflect on this issue as a community. That means: don't make any crazy userboxes designed to try to trip this rule, and don't go on any sprees deleting ones that already exist. A thoughtful process of change is important. And whatever you do, do NOT wheel war about this.--Jimbo Wales 07:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC) [5].

• Jimbo kept CSD-T1 on the policy page, therefore it can be used right now. Admins should absolutely use a fair bit of discretion when deleting existing templates under CSD-T1, until this discussion has run its course, but it doesn't mean we're prohibited from deleting templates under CSD-T1. --Interiot 20:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• Agreed, no large scale purges of existing ones (for now), but no more creations of divisive boxes either. If such are created fromnow on however, they should be deleted. --Doc ^ask? 21:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree; maybe a détente is what's needed to allow this to come to a harmonious decision. -- nae'blis _(talk) 21:56, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• Yup. If there's one productive outcome of the recent unpleasantness, it's this, for better or for worse. At least it will allow us to have a de facto moratorium on new divisive templates. It would be good if a corresponding clarification would be added to Wikipedia:Template namespace. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 21:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• The added criterium for speedy deletion has been made without consensus and will work as oil on fire in the userbox war. Really, who can possibly believe this will solve anything?! Larix 00:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• Well, we could just delete the whole blooming lot, and go and write an encyclopedia. --Doc ^ask? 01:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • That way lies madness.... -- nae'blis _(talk) 00:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

My opinion towards a consensus here, FWIW, is that obviously intentionally disruptive or confrontational new boxes should be speedied. The same sense used with unrepentant trolls and other contributors of patent nonsense to articles can apply to the phenomenon of userbox templates, which go somewhat beyond the content of any individual's userpage. Letting browsers or correspondants know up front what one is interested in or qualified for is fine, cranks creating tools for denigrating everyone who disagrees with them is too much, IMO. --Fire Star 07:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion we're placing unnatural emphasis on material in templates over ordinary user page text. After all, what's to keep them from simply pasting the source of the box into somebody's user page? If we're entitled to speedy delete userboxes, we should be able to delete any intentionally disruptive or confrontational content whatsoever from anybody's user page. (I'm not sure whether I actually want this or whether I'm trying to make an argument against the rule.) Deco 07:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, one difference is that a template is intended to be used multiple times. Creating an inflammatory template uses the template mechanism/namespace to propagate a message, not just to express it. It's easy and convenient for people down the line, who might or might not have bothered to add the un-templated message to their user pages, to drop in a template. FreplySpang (talk) 17:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Another difference is that userspace is necessarily tied to a particular user. We are unlikely to see, say, the equivalent of {{User evil nazi}} in userspace, because it would have to be created by someone with the intent of using it themselves. In template space, on the other hand, we seem to be getting piles of unused userboxes created by editors trying to fill in the gaps in userbox coverage. —Kirill Lokshin 01:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't like another aspect of the current wording ("Contributions that are clearly intended to be divisive and/or inflammatory...", my emphasis). I would either replace "intended" or add something to the effect that this also applies to templates which are unintentionally extremely divisive and/or inflammatory. If someone creates an unusually inflammatory template in good faith (without intending for it to be inflammatory), i.e., if this is due to a lapse of judgement rather than outright malice, I think we would still want to be able to speedy-delete. After all, we're not mind readers, so if the net effect is the same, why make a distinction that involves the state of mind of whoever created a template? --MarkSweep (call me collect) 09:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

MarkSweep has good point, if the result of the template is overtly disruptive or divisive, even if unintentionally, it could go in an obvious case. The editor who created it in good faith should be notified differently, of course. My thoughts on Deco's argument is that since templates go beyond any one user's page (they are a tool anyone can use more easily than typing the whole thing out and framing it), creating a userbox template seems a system wide issue more than a personal one, for me. --Fire Star 15:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Intent is probably less bright-line than it should be, here; I like the recent deletion of that word, though I'm not certain it yet achieves the desired effect. -- nae'blis _(talk) 00:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually the template syntax can be used to include the content of arbitrary pages. A user could create a box on a subpage of their user page and then encourage everyone to use it with {{User:Whatever/InflammatoryBox}}. It's not technically a template - if you still consider it to be one, I could continue to blur the line to your satisfaction. Deco 01:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• Look, if you look at the user boxes you could prolly find people that object to every single one. I oppose most of the Wikipedia:Userboxes/Beliefs user boxes, but I am grown up enough to deal with things that piss me off in an adult manner. If you are so sensitive that a small user box that you disagree with offends you, you should turn off your computer and and make an appointment with a shrink. If you think that {{user UN}} is fine and {{User Anti-UN}} needs to be deleated; {{User ACLU}} is acceptable and {{User Anti-ACLU}} needs to go etc etc.... You are too easly offended and should step the hell back and take a deep breath.... cause you are violating WP:NPOV and forcing your views on everyone. Jwissick^(t)(c) 04:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• I happen to disagree vehemently with this new criterion, mainly because of the disruption it has already caused with certain admins (*cough*TonySidaway*cough*) taking oppurtunity with the new CSD to continue unilaterally deleting userboxes against consensus. Before they had to cite WP:IAR or pretend the page violated WP:NPA, or manage to twise some other policy, but now they have a new tool to use to avoid that bothersome gathering of consensus, because our lovely dictator gave it to them after the lamest wheel war this project has ever seen. Also, saying that opposing viewpoints are divisive ({{user no WHATEVER}} {{user anti WHATEVER}}}} and supportive templates are not is a bit... uninformed. If I were to create a template such as the one below, that would be divisive, would it not? Conversely, if I were to create a template that said the opposite, it may not be. A little bit of common sense goes a long ways, people. (Note: I do not actually think that Hitler was a great humanitarian. This is simply an example of what a divisive template would actually look like.) --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 06:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• File:Adolf Hitler Bigger.jpg

  This user thinks that Adolf Hitler was a great humanitarian

• • If you want to tag some supportive templates as divisive, please do so and they'll be considered on their merits. I really don't see what the problem is here. The only templates being deleted under this criterion are those that clearly have nothing to do with building a high quality encyclopedia and only serve to make the atmosphere worse.--Tony Sidaway 13:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• • • I happen to disagree with this assertian. {{user admins ignoring policy}} certainly has a lot to do with "building a high quality encyclopedia". {{user against Iraq war}} also has to do with building a high-quality encyclopedia. We all have biases - these templates are a simple way of informing others of those biases, which in turn makes NPOV, one of the principle concerns of the project, easier to establish. I recognize that opinions differ on this, but regardless, these templates are not unnecessarily divisive. {{user pedo}} was unnecessarily divisive. {{user supports Hitler}} would be unnecessarily divisive. {{user anti UN}} is not unnecessarily divisive.
    • As for "only serving to make the atmosphere worse", I happen to disagree even more strongly. The only reason they serve to make the atmosphere worse is because they happen to be speedily deleted outside of process or consensus. There was no conflict with templates existing before admins started deleting them. The consistent ignoring of consensus serves to make the atmosphere much, much worse than any userbox templates ever could by themselves. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 00:39, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
      • There was no conflict with templates existing before admins started deleting them That is a gross misenterpretation of the situation. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 23:03, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The disaster of this imposed policy is that it has unleashed a plague of petty authoritarians on the project. What gets edited — and therefore what gets deleted — is always going to be self-selected by volunteers. The mere presence of this vague criterion among the current criteria has emboldened people to delete certain userbox templates they happen to disagree with. Even assuming good faith, it's always going to be a whole lot easier for someone to see that those boxes are "polemical" or "divisive". Obviously polemical or divisive but relatively popular boxes (e.g. Template:User no meat, with its offensive "meat is murder" slogan) will stay. No one wants to call down the wrath to come on the person who dares to label it so, much less delete it without notice, as the policy seeks to legitimize. I'd do it myself, but that would be WP:POINT, seemingly legitimize the criterion, and besides, I don't want the hate.

The only NPOV way to do this would be to disable all templates on user pages. Nothing else will get the job done and be truly neutral. Even claiming a language might be inferred as making a political statement; happens often enough in real life.

The proposed policy as it stands increases divisiveness tenfold, and increases pettiness a hundredfold. It has distracted the community from its purpose far more than the boxes themselves ever could. Mr. Wales, I beseech you from the bowels of Christ to consider you may be wrong. -- Smerdis of Tlön 22:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree fully, although, but just so you know, user no meat has in fact been deleted, which only proves you are right about this. I had mine deleted, as well as my ape equality box, my anti-death penalty box, my anti-imperialist box, and even my one of my two pro userbox userboxes, and the only reason the other one isn't off is because I put the source code on my userpage before the template could be deleted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Ungovernable Force 08:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope no-one objects to this. Quite clearly the criterion that was created as T1 applies equally to all namespaces. For this reason, I have transferred it over. If anyone wants to add any détente comments, I'm not going to stop them. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 21:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Categories, too? Oh well, there's always common sense and Deletion Review for such things. Ashibaka tock 22:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

A category can be divisive and inflammatory! Why not? Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 22:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

My point was that categories are necessarily divisive because they apply labels to articles :) For example, you could delete Category:Fascists because it is accusatory. Ashibaka tock 23:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty much the reason why categories that label persons to a particular political ideology have been banned from German Wikipedia (see de:Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Kategorien, die Personen nach politischer Ausrichtung zusammenfassen) --84.137.19.238 01:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I really don't think that's what's meant. If you can rephrase it to exclude that, great! Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 23:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Part of the argument that templates (specifically userbox templates) should be speedied is that they can use included categories to organize Wikipedians, and that sometimes some people (i.e. Jimbo) won't like such groups of people to be able to organize so easily. So, it seems that e.g. Category:Aryan Wikipedians or maybe Category:Wikipedians who think subjectively defined speedying is crap would be divisive and therefore just as reprehensible. Therefore in all sense it should be just as subject to speedying. I'm sure we will all be able to agree on what lines of organization are "bad", or trust AFD/TFD/IFD to decide it for us. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 01:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I got as far as the edit window, but after a few shots I decided that I don't think there's a wording of this, no matter how eloquent, that could prevent prevent improper userspace or category deletions. Jimbo was reverting to sannse's version, and sannse was paraphrasing my own comment on User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Userboxes_again, and I think all three of us were basically saying that polemic templates are causing a lot of trouble. If you move this back to T1, this can be resolved thanks to the new proposal Wikipedia:Use of userboxes. As for categories and userspace, their respective deletion debates see divisive/inflammatory pages all the time and I don't think a new speedy rule will improve the quality of discussion. Ashibaka tock 23:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I would think project-space application of this could get slightly more interesting. Is a deletion nomination divisive? Is an RFC inflammatory? Maybe I'm just being pessimistic about this, though ;-) —Kirill Lokshin 23:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying it applies to user space too? --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 00:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I moved it back to T1 so it no longer applies to userspace. See my comment above, which links to a campaign to move all userboxes into userspace where people can freely express their opinions. Ashibaka tock 00:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I see - so the move to general was yet another power grab. --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates!) 00:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

SPUI, this is a wiki - moving stuff is not a power grab. Folk can revert, as they did. Less of the paranoia. --Doc ^ask? 01:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. I understand the reasoning but Jimbo put it in template space. Ashibaka tock 01:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, userboxes are only used in userspace, so the intent behind T1 effectively makes it U3. And this is why the whole thing stinks -- it's an attempt to regulate userspace by the end-run of attacking userspace templates. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 01:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• No, T1 only applies to Template:s. There's a difference between a userspace template and a normal template. This is a userspace template: {{User:Interiot/Whangdangle}}. This is a non-userspace template: {{User:UBX/Pie}}. As it stands, the first one is not covered by any CSD, and is only covered by Wikipedia:User page. --Interiot 04:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • That's an amusingly convenient distinction, but disingnenous. The only reason T1 is here is because of userboxes. Which are only used on user pages. "Divisive templates" wouldn't be a problem if they weren't being used somewhere. No one reads or searches templatespace for any information other than template administrivia. This goes for all templates. Template space is not a coherent content space in itself; its content is specifically intended to be used in other coherent content spaces (mainspace, userspace, projectspace). Each template has an intended target space in which it should be used. So regulating templates used in X space has the end effect of regulating that space. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 18:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I had assumed that CSD-T1 does not explicitely apply to any page in the User: space, even pages that are transcluded in another (especially because another user can turn any of my pages into a transcluded page without my knowledge). Is that incorrect? Also, while userboxes may have been the motivating factor behind T1, as it's currently stated, T1 by itself doesn't explicitely cover subst:ed templates, or anything else in userspace that might more or less resemble a userbox. Is that incorrect? --Interiot 19:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
      • No, but I don't think it matters. Pushing userbox templates into userspace does 2 things: 1. Eliminate the current organized-ness of userboxes, and 2. encourage templating (i.e. transcluding) from non-template spaces. Furthermore, subst'ing userboxes destroys the whole purpose of templates. As I say on my page: "This user does not subst userboxes because they may improve over time, as is the power of Wikipedia, and subst'ing prevents benefits from such improvement." - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 17:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Why just delete redirects to the User namespace? How about redirects from the article space to the Template namespace, or Category, or Wikipedia? Why are those treated differently? -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Among other things, the various project-page shortcuts (like WP:NPOV or WP:AFD) are actually redirects from article-space to Wikipedia-space. —Kirill Lokshin 03:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

See the discussion above. All shortcuts, even those to userspace, are counted as exceptions to CSD (eg. WP:ANONX, WP:AYB, WP:BEEFSTEW, WP:BOMB, WP:CCW, WP:CDVF, WP:CUNT, WP:INT, WP:JVS, WP:LAVT, WP:LVAT, WP:PCW, WP:RAUL). As far as I can tell, CSD-R2 is mainly to make userfying clearly within policy? --Interiot 04:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that before posting here. I was asking more about things like Mr. Treason, which I just speedied after it was created by a career vandal. I doubt it will be missed, but it didn't technically fall within any speedy criterion. Seems like it should. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, Mr. Treason was recreated, so now it's at WP:TFD I mean, WP:RFD. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

gun article can be deleted info put in mp5k article.(Uber555 03:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC))

Sorry, but what exactly does this mean? howcheng {chat} 07:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe this person is trying to tell us that they merged MP5K PDW into MP5K and wish to delete MP5K PDW. A redirect is of course more appropriate and I'll take care of it. Deco 07:38, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Despite the discussion in Archive7 on the difference between CSD A2 and {{NotEnglish}}, it's not clear at all to me why the former merits speedy deletion (ie. deletable-immediately-on-sight) while the latter merits a 2-week wait before being merely listed for deletion (according to the template). The current state of affairs becomes especially strange, when one considers that any {{NotEnglish}} can easily be transformed into CSD A2, merely by having someone cross-post the untranslated text into the corresponding foreign-language Wikipedia. The fact that merely copying the untranslated text into the corresponding foreign-language Wikipedia would lead to the untranslated article in English Wikipedia being allowed to be deleted on sight, before anyone has a chance to translate it into English, that seems a little illogical to me--unless a similar article already exists in English Wikipedia, but that's a different deletion criteria altogether. I would expect that a CSD A2 article be also merit a 2-week period before any deletion.

If this has been discussed in detail before, please point me to the appropriate pages. Thanks.

If what I said above makes no sense or indicates a clear misunderstanding, please clarify the truth for me and others. Thanks for your patience. 67.160.10.87 09:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

If something is in another language-wikipedia, there's no harm in speedy deleting it here. If somebody moves the article to the non-English wiki (hopefully only if they can read the language), then that article may still be translated back to English at any time in the future. I think in many cases, the chances of a proper translation being done, are higher in the non-English Wikipedia. I'm not even sure why keep articles if the language is known. Ideally we'ld transfer them to some sort of project-space in the other wiki immediately. --Rob 09:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, AFAICT the point of the "must exist on another wiki" provision is to prevent irrevocable loss of the content. The rule A2 just helps to erase redundant content of little immediate value. That's not to say you couldn't create a stub with an appropriate interwiki link, and leave a note on the talk page encouraging translation from the foreignpedia. Deco 10:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting to tire of the number of completely made-up word and phrase definitions which are created every day; there must be literally hundreds. Most of these are clearly unsupported nonsense, and do not deserve the dignity (and nonnegligible effort) of being brought to AfD. Two examples this evening are Poison fingers syndrome, which gets zero google hits and which the article claims "starting to catch on", and Kurushinism, which is utter nonsense. I sometimes tag these, perhaps unfairly, as {{db-nonsense}}, but I think we need a CSD category for "obvious unsupported neologism with no claim of widespread use or encyclopediacy". Even applying {{prod}} is giving these article too much credit. Any other support for such an addition? bikeable (talk) 05:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but I don't think they should be speediable, since often words that seem made up and bizarre to one person turn out to be legit (and bizarre). Instead, I suggest you use the experimental new Wikipedia:Proposed deletion process, which has already been used to delete many neologisms. Deco 05:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

thanks, Deco, and I appreciate the problems of "seems made up; is legit". However, we have the same problem now for db-bio, and we are essentially asking admins to use their own judgement in those cases as well. I trust that they speedy delete bios when they seem to obviously fail WP:BIO, and I believe we can similarly trust them to judge obvious neologisms. In fact, I think there is a weird assymmetry in these two: recently I have seen nn-bios speedied, then recreated, then speedied and protected with {{deletedpage}} -- all at the action of a single admin with a strong opinion about the subject's notability; yet obvious cases that at best might be dicdefs must instead go through AfD (or prod). I've been using {prod}, but I would swear that things I've prod'ed are being CSDed... in which case admins have the same view on obvious neologisms that I do, and are working outside the CSD criteria. If that's true, and I believe it is and I support their actions, we should just have a tag for it. I also think that tagging something so obvious with {prod} gives it too much opportunity to sit around, get de-prod'ed, and end up back on AfD -- that could easily be ten days an obvious neologism waits around for deletion. Tonight's examples include embetter, deprovement, and islamophobiaphobia (note the extra -phobia). argh! bikeable (talk) 05:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the big deal is about the time? I understand the annoyance of sending something to AfD after it's been prodded and deprodded, because it's a little tedious. But why is time a problem for neologisms? Are we afraid of people reading them? If people are searching for them, they probably don't need to be deleted. The only things that seem like time is such a huge concern about are attack pages (speediable) and hoaxes (can't speedy because they could be true, but have a warning template). NickelShoe 00:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be good if we added to "I5" something like this:

If an orphaned fairuse image was replaced with a free image of reasonable quality/suitability, the fairuse image may be deleted, without delay by the admin, if its felt there's no reasonable case for the fairuse image.

This way, when somebody replaces a fairuse image, with a free one, they don't have to "babysit" it, to ensure the fairuse isn't swapped back by another editor (often an anon, who would be unable to re-upload the fairuse image). If the quality/suitability of the free image replacement is debateable, then the normal 7-day wait period could still apply. --Rob 05:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this. Determining what's reasonable and suitable is far too subjective. If someone keeps swapping it back in, that probably means there is debate warranting an IFD. Superm401 - Talk 04:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I've had an instance of someone trying to recreate unacceptable templates in another namespace and arguing that T1 doesn't apply outside template space. Because it doesn't matter which namespace a template is transcluded from (template: is simply the default location if an explicit namespace is not provided in a transclusion) I've clarified: pages created in any namespace for the purpose of transclusion, --Tony Sidaway 09:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've reverted. User:Jimbo Wales gets to decide policy unilaterally. User:Tony Sidaway does not. This is already a "hot button" issue - the criterion was created without consensus - let's not play power games. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 09:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, It looks logical enough though, how come Tony's clarification isn't a plain shoo-in? Could you explain? (Though I do have some ideas myself too :-) ) Kim Bruning 10:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• • I support Tony's revision. I see no reason that templates in non-default tablespaces should be treated any differently. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 10:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess tony made the change due to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#User:Userboxes ? Kim Bruning 10:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually no. It was Blue Aadvark's recreation of a speedied T1 in his userspace that prompted me to change. Crotalus Horridus seems to have undertaken a more extensive project, of which I was not aware until I saw the announcement later. I'm satisfied that there is no reason to treat templates differently just because they don't happen to have the prefix "template" in front of their name, so I'll restore the text, which Crotalus removed. --Tony Sidaway 11:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed T1 entirely. It's clear that it has failed in its original intent; T1 itself, and the applications to which it has been put, is far more "divisive and inflammatory" than any userboxes possibly could be. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 11:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You may not do that. See your talk page. Kim Bruning 11:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You know you have to love this about userboxes. Anytime you can think of something dissruptive either side could do they promptly go and do it. Now clearly T1 is flawed (becuase the deletion of Template:Nazism sidebar and Template:NPOV would be terminaly stupid). However getting rid of it would be somewhat tricky. Thus damage limitation is the way forward.Geni 04:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I have placed in WP:CSD the following, under the heading "Templates":

# Templates that are divisive and/or inflammatory. Please note that this is a brand new criterion and should be discussed before widespread use. See talk page.

While we may disagree over the intended reach of the rule and its applicability to the various spaces, the rule itself, in its simplest form—that templates which are divisive and/or inflammatory may be speedily deleted by a Wikipedia administrator—derives its authority from Mr. Wales, who as Chairman of the Wikimedia Foundation has "ultimate authority on any matter" on all Wikimedia projects, subject to decisions of the Board. As the Board, to my knowledge, has not disapproved of the T1 criterion he placed [6], it retains its validity; any removal of the rule from the CSD page is tantamount to vandalism. I understand that some parties to the disagreement may at present feel aggrieved; this is quite understandable. I urge that these disagreements be aired in the appropriate fora, and that some resolution be attained through civil discourse—not via revert warring, which is unlikely to bring about agreeable results. I have acted as an ordinary Wikipedian. I bear no other authority. I am neutral with respect to the precise wording of the template. Regards ENCEPHALON 13:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Please stop altering policy pages like you did here. If you disagree with existing policy, please discuss on the talk page. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 04:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Explain further. I do not believe examples are necessary until the discussion on this topic has been completed. Anyone else have a thought on this? Sct72 04:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with the examples, as long as they are listed as material which has been deleted, rather than should be. Anything restored by deletion review should probably be taken off the list, though. —Andux^␅ 04:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, I'd rather like to see the text of User admins ignoring policy listed there. ;) —Andux^␅ 05:07, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to list examples that have been subject to speedy deletion under this criterion. It's early days yet and we're just feeling our way, so a few examples are good. I'll restore to Mark's version because I do sense that we're going to go with them. --Tony Sidaway 08:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added This user is pissed about admins ignoring process. (which was the wording of the Admins ignoring policy userbox at the time it was deleted. --Tony Sidaway 08:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I am absolutely in favor of CSD T1, but I have a question about Jimbo's addition of this criterion making it unremovable. Jimbo is the ultimate authority when he chooses to be, but in this case it's not clear to me whether he was acting as ultimate authority or an ordinary editor. How does one tell? -- SCZenz 08:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused about this as well. I wish he had a User:God-King account/signature and a non-God-King account, as it's hard to tell what is holy writ and what is just Jimbo being an editor sometimes. The very fact that he didn't create T1, only restored it, makes this whole thing surreal. -- nae'blis _(talk) 17:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The most obvious solution to this is to ask Jimbo. If this is anything like his past proclamations, he'll want it to stick around for a "test period" and then the community can put it on the table for consideration. Deco 22:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I've come across four of these this week through Special: Random. I'm in favor of articles on terms, including slang and l33t-speak; but there really shouldn't be an article on term #7836592 that someone just made up last week. Why shouldn't these be speedied- it's not like they're going to be expanded, as no one knows about them except the coiner, friends, and people like us who read about it on WP. EGGS 21:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Provided it specifies that UrbanDictionary must be checked, under as many variant spellings as reasonably imaginable. And preferably the OED as well, but a general-purpose online dictionary could work as well. In such a case, speedy sounds like a good idea. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 02:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. If it's limited to single words, maybe, but you wouldn't find History of Germany in the dictionary, and even many single word terms are highly specialized technical, medical, or legal terms. Deco 08:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Deco, I don't get your point -- surely no one would tag a page called History of Germany as a neologism. Highly specialized technical terms are one thing, although a search on google scholar will generally uncover a reference or two. The kind of thing I have in mind is completely obvious. For example, I just tagged Nutcicles with {{prod}}. The page says, slang term defining ice that would hang from a private area on a male during a really cold time. We get dozens or hundreds like this every day, and it's painful to me that they have to wait a week. I recognize, however, that there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for expanding CSD for this type of thing. bikeable (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

History of Germany is just a really obvious example of a phrase that clearly deserves an article and yet is "invented", meaning it's not a widely accepted term for the topic. We use invented titles all the time, and I don't want to see anything deleted just because there's not a widely accepted name for it available. There's a thin line between "neologism" and "invented for a legitimate purpose" and this is the source of the subjective nature of such a rule. Deco 22:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a major difference is that "history of Germany" is an article about a concept that can be described as, whereas "nuticicles" is about, well, nuticicles, for lack of a better term. "Ice that would hang from a private area on a male during a really cold time" is not a neologism, just really really stupid. And, being pedantic, "history of Germany" is not a neologism but a coined phrase. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 23:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, Deco, but along with Sam Korn, I don't think that "history of Germany" is a neologism; it's a string of words which makes perfect grammatical and logical sense, and is no more a neologism than "string of words" or "slice of pizza". Furthermore, the phrase has been used an extremely large number of times (267,000 hits on google), so no one would reasonably tag such an article with a neologism tag. I certainly agree that it's worth writing language protecting phrases which aren't obvious to most, but which make sense to specialists, particularly technical or jargonish phrases, and when in doubt we should err on the side of caution (or AfD). On the other hand, "nutcicle" didn't even attempt to pose as either technical, specialized, accurate, or widely used. I may try to draft a more specific strawman proposal to address these concerns. bikeable (talk) 00:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree as well. Specialized words should be sourceable somewhere, but sometimes the special knowledge/extra eyes that comes from AfD are worth it to catch obscure references. WP:PROD might work, but I have reservations on that process for this purpose. Outright nonsense, of course, is a different story. -- nae'blis _(talk) 16:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that they should be speediable. The idea for speedy deletion is to avoid going through pointless processes to which WP:SNOW applies for articles where there is already a wide consensus to delete. Stifle 18:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

1. A Jimbo edit at 21:38, 3 February hereproduced his reply at Wikipedia:Divisiveness, clearly indicating his point of view about the whole thing.
2. 00:17, 6 February edit revert to sannse establishing "Templates that are divisive and inflammatory" as a speedy delete criteria.
3. 07:04, 6 February edit produced: Regarding the new Template CSD indicating this was not a commandment from the wiki-god, but a beginning point for "a thoughtful process of change". WAS 4.250 16:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Wonder if you'd care to comment on this latest attempt to represent the feeling of the Wikipedia community on activities--mainly political advocacy, voting on everything, and political userboxes--that tend to split us into camps. --Tony Sidaway 14:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This looks very beautiful to me.--Jimbo Wales 21:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

For any templates that are not speedy deletion candidates, use Wikipedia:Templates for deletion

1. Templates that are divisive and inflammatory.

At least for a little bit, I advise everyone to chill about this. Let's take some time to reflect on this issue as a community. That means: don't make any crazy userboxes designed to try to trip this rule, and don't go on any sprees deleting ones that already exist.

A thoughtful process of change is important.

And whatever you do, do NOT wheel war about this.--Jimbo Wales 07:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Today I took the opportunity of an interview on IRC, organised by The Signpost, to ask Jimbo about userboxes:

Feb 15 16:53:49 Ral315 Tony_Sidaway asks: "In the past six weeks the number of userboxes on English Wikipedia has risen from 3500 to 6000 and, despite your appeals for restraint, the number pertaining to political beliefs has risen from 45 to 150. Can the problem of unsuitable userboxes still be resolved by debate?"

Feb 15 17:11:57 jwales eh

Feb 15 17:11:59 jwales userboxes

Feb 15 17:12:00 jwales eh

Feb 15 17:12:40 jwales I'm looking at the political beliefs one now.

Feb 15 17:13:50 jwales My only comment on the userbox situation is that the current situation is not acceptable.

I think that puts it pretty plainly. It's not just that he doesn't personally like userboxes, but speaking as the leader of the project he finds the current situation unacceptable. Something must change, one way or the other. --Tony Sidaway 21:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

See the ongoing discussion at The Village Pump, and be wary of Wikipedia:Multiposting. InkSplotch^(talk) 14:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Recently, someone changed the language in this new criterion from "divisive and inflammatory" to "polemical". One the one hand, it's a less common word and therefore the case may not be as easily understood. On the other hand, it's well linked and I learned a new word today (which is always a good thing). However, reading the definition at Polemic it appears to me that this implies intent - that the author must be trying to incite disruption. The previous language merely required that it be disruptive. Am I reading too much into it or is this a wording change that also changes the meaning? Rossami (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who changed it to "clearly intented to be"...but eventually it was reverted out. Perhaps T1 is more affective without it...more encompassing, but I worry that it gets to easy to just delete any template that you don't agree with.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 03:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd support a change to "clear intent to be divisive and inflammatory". - brenneman^{T}{L} 04:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I would also, in the spirit of narrowing this ill-conceived rule as much as possible, but we'd have to ask Jimbo if that was his intent. We do regularly delete articles that were not created in bad faith. Deco 04:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

It should be re-added. As for deleted articles...that depends on the article, not the creator's intent. Generally speaking though...a good faith article at least gets an AfD.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 05:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

'Twas I who boldly made the change: it wasn't my intention to expand the scope of the criterion, merely to find a wording which was easier to apply. I don't think we can look at editor intent in a speedy deletion criteria: if an editor is deliberately be obnoxious, that might be a justification for a block under WP:POINT, although most authors of speedy-deleted material never come close to being blocked. A polemical template would be one which attacks another person's opinions by going beyond the bounds of civil discussion: for example "This user is a Democrat" would not be speediable (though it may still be inappropriate, that is for discussion elsewhere); "This user hates Republicans" is polemical. Physchim62 (talk) 13:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I like the change because "divisive and inflammatory" is too self-fulfilling:

Editor #1: I think this template is divisive.

Editor #2: I disagree, I think this template is fine.

Editor #3: Ah, you see? It's divisive. Delete it.

Divisive is too vague, and something becomes inflammatory if people are simply dedicated to making noise about it. I think "polemical" is better at getting to the heart of the matter. I agree with Physchim62's differentiation above: pointing out your points of view is, I suppose, inherently (if extremely mildly) divisive, but is not necessarily objectionable. "Polemical" brings us closer to what I think we and (hey, why not throw in an unneeded appeal to authority:) Jimbo are trying to get to. JDoorjam Talk 14:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem is not userboxes. The problem is divisiveness. the solution is not to delete but to EXPAND the divisive content into a creative expression of one's self: :"Divisive content in user space, whether in the form of divisive user boxes or any other kind of bumper-sticker type labeling is discouraged as harmful to Wikipedia. Creative, explanatory, or otherwise useful information is encouraged as these efforts can help build a community that in turn builds an encyclopedia. If it is generally perceived that a label, userbox, or bumper sticker type self-expression on your user page is divisive, then expand it with creativity, explanations, and other positive inclusive elements or remove it because that's what is good for building the community that is building this encyclopedia. Facile labels, polarizing "bumper stickers", polemical user boxes, factionalism, and division are bad for Wikipedia. Creative informative explanatory self-expression is good for Wikipedia. Individuality of expression always looks more meaningful than branding." Source = Wikipedia:Divisiveness WAS 4.250 17:52, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that intent is an issue. The kid who put the pedophile template wasn't trying to start a war, but it still should have been removed. Someone who starts a "Hamas is great" template may feel they have the best of intentions...intent just isn't relevant here. Suggest change back to divise and/or inflammatory. Polemical doesn't even cover pedophile templates. Stevage 21:55, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you bring up a great point with Hamas: a lot of people have said "pro-whatever userboxes are ok, but anti-whatever userboxes, that's where we get into trouble" -- but you're right, that really won't work as a rule of thumb either, because there are controversial associations that will be seen as controversial. JDoorjam Talk 06:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Well the word polemical is better because it does cover pro- boxes. They'll all have to go so we might as well get the word right. --Tony Sidaway 06:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Some say "polemical", some say "divisive", some say "disruptive", some say "controversial". Some say it is about "pro" vs. "con" and others talk of intent. By whatever criteria, by whatever word, simply deleting even all the userboxes does not deal with the situation when the exact same thing can exist in some other bumper sticker like form. The solution is for the content of the user page to be discouraged from facile labeling and be encouraged to become a more thoughtful self expression than some mere labeling or branding of one's self. This can be a win-win for everyone. WAS 4.250 15:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think we should be telling users that their self-expression isn't "thoughtful enough" for Wikipedia. I do think that getting all POV userboxes out of template space is appropriate (though that doesn't make it easy, or non-controversial). But if people want to express themselves (which I think helps us get to know each other and in that helps us work with each other), and they want to do so in little (substed/all-code-on-page) boxes, hey, let 'em. Do remember that there is a reason why userboxes are so popular in the first place: they really are a great way to quickly learn something about a user. JDoorjam Talk 15:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Divisiveness doesn't provide for telling people "their self-expression isn't thoughtful enough for Wikipedia". It does provide for telling them they have something on their user page several others feel is divisive and for the good of Wikipedia we encourage you to expand it and creatively express yourself in a way that is more specific to yourself and comes across less as a group label you are tagging yourself with. WAS 4.250 20:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You're saying the divisive thing is that people are tagging themselves with group labels. I'm sorry, but I think the "divisive" thing is the content of the boxes, not the fact that other people also have those boxes. I simply fail to see how group association is divisive; isn't that the opposite of divisive? JDoorjam Talk 20:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

"something on their user page several others feel is divisive" whatever that may be, needs to be responded to with encouagement to expand that something. It has nothing to do with boxes. It has nothing to do with group association. It has to do with objections, followed by encouragement, followed by expanding the content by the user. All in the name of a better wikipedia. Let's make this a win-win scenerio where everyone can have stuff on their page that reflects who they are and ewe have a gentle loving process whereby encouragement produces more thoughtful self descriptions and thereby lesses tensions and concerns about divisiveness. We need a process that helps this situation. Jimbo has a responsibility to lead, not just wait till things get out of control and then react. He believes the uncontrolled growth of user boxes threatens his vision of a project he is entrusted with leading. Either we figure out a solution or we have a solution imposed from those with legal authority over the hardware (Jimbo et. al.). WAS 4.250 22:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I honestly think we should get rid of userboxes, but plenty of people do not. It is the conduct of certain admins that disgusts me. First of all they delete userboxes entirely out-of-process, then when Jimbo edits the policy (without any community discussion, may I add) to add a limited deletion criteria to cover the likes of the infamous {{user pedophile}} THE ADMINS IGNORE THAT TOO by deleting userboxes that are clearly not inflammatory (how exactly is it 'inflammatory' for someone to oppose the UN?) and not adhering to the policy's own caveat that it should be used extremely sparingly. I guess most people would probably be happy to see userboxes go, its the ability of admins to whatever the hell they want, and ignore both policy and community consensus, without any consequences (hopefully the Arbcom will not capitulate this time as they did the last time this flared up) that has so many people concerned for the future of this project.Cynical 17:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm totally with you... or at least, I think we should get rid of userbox templates. This is just really, really bad policymaking and policy execution. That, more than anything, is what irks me about this whole thing. JDoorjam Talk 20:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

How are any of the political userboxes divisive at all? I've been on Wikipedia for several hours now looking for the effects or indicators of this supposed divisiveness, and the only lines I have seen Wikipedians divided along is the issue of whether or not POV userboxes should exist at all. The only way in which I have seen a division along political lines on this issue is that by and large only certain templates are being proposed for deletion, and it is my impression that many people inserting these requests for speedy deletion are doing so for political reasons (why else would someone tag a box expressing a desire for the expansion of the death penalty, but neglact to tag the corresponding one desiring restriction). I would humbly request that someone show me an example of the negative effect these userboxes are having on the community (that is, an effect that arose from the opinion expressed in the box, not one which arose from the box merely expressing an opinion), so that I can compare it to the truly damaging effect that this policy is having on the community.

In the meantime, we need to prevent any userboxes from being speedily deleted until we can have a full, civil discussion on this matter and actually come to an acceptable definition of "polemic or inflamatory". Please. This presently ambiguous policy is seemingly being abused by those who wish to delete all userboxes, regardless of whether the userboxes are polemic. Reveilled 21:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes I'm a little concerned about the interpetation of CSD T1 by some people. Some users seem to think that any userbox that suggests that the user holds a point of view is divisive. I'm not too sure that's the case. enochlau (talk) 03:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Some people seem to be nominating political viewpoints they don't like, such as currently support for the European Union. I can't see how the EU template could be divisive unless all POV userboxes are. --Maggu 11:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The real problem is less about templates and more about divisiveness in userspace. Please consider my proposal, Wikipedia:Unacceptable userspace material, which is intended as a means to minimally quantify "bad" materials in userspace which the practice of including on userpages has a detrimental effect on Wikipedia, as opposed to making overbroad blanket restrictions. The goal is to maintain the liberal use of userspace while addressing concerns of divisiveness and objectionableness, avoiding template deletionism, and providing a defined standard on which compulsory userpage amendments can be based. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I propose a new criterion for speedy deletion below (for attack redirects):

1. It is a redirect that serves no purpose but to disparage the subject(s) whose name appears in the title of the current page or in the redirect-to page.

The template used will probably be {{db-redirattack}}.

Please add comments and discussion below. -- King of Hearts | (talk) 23:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Could attack pages be made a general CSD? I have already tagged some user pages as attack pages (i.e. pages not created by the user that attack the user) that have been deleted, and would seem to make sense that any page of whatever sort created with "no purpose but to disparage" should be deleted. If there is a good reason it can't be made general (please say why) I would support the above proposal. Petros471 00:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this, though we should clarify that unflattering (but genuine) photographs do not count. Superm401 - Talk 00:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I support this proposal. This CSD would be a natural extension of A6 and R3, and it would help. I think it's needed because A6 can't be applied to attack redirects, and there's no need to send them to RfD. I also agree with the second proposal, a G10 could be a good idea. Mushroom (Talk) 22:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I support this. How can this be moved forward to a vote on making it policy? (The discussion on this page is largely being taken up by userbox debate, and this is being overlooked. Hynca-Hooley 09:32, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure it actually needs a vote (as there appears to be consensus). However before making this policy we should work on the exact wording and get support for that. Probably best to create a new heading at the bottom of the talk page for this, as it will be less likely to get totally drowned in all the userbox debate. I'll have a go at a first draft later if no one beats me to it. Petros471 10:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm really confused as to the extent of CSD T1 - people have been nominating userboxes that support recycling or ones that denounce profanity up for this, yet I don't see how either of those are highly problematic. Could we get examples of what's speedily deletable under CSD T1? enochlau (talk) 03:07, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

What's deletable is "whatever the hell any admin goddamned well feels like," evidently, since that's what's happening. Being affiliated with a political party isn't inflammatory, yet there they all went. Rogue 9 12:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

There are admins who simply object to all userboxes. Period. And they know that, the way the system is set up, no one has the power to stop them from deleting prettymuch any userbox that states an opinion. {{User Pancakes}} will probably prove to be too divisive. I've subst'd all my POV userboxes so that if they get axed, the code is on my page and not just the template. (instead of {{template name}}, write {{subst:template name}}, and it will deposit the code safely on your page.). JDoorjam Talk 13:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

While the above argument is more aggressive than I'd like to be seen as, it does reflect my own views as well. T1 has become a vehicle by which the small number of admins opposed to userboxes can simply swoop in and delete what they will. T1 itself has created far more divisiveness and bitterness in the community than all of the templates deleted under it could possibly have created. Of course, it has been helped on by unruly use of speedy deletion. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 00:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

agreed. The Ungovernable Force 04:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it there, but....is or isn't "divisive" part of T1, and exactly how "divisive" would it have to be? It appears from recent deletions and discussions that some think that "divisive" is part of T1, but I'm afraid of the possible lengths to which it can be taken - for example, {{User incl}} and {{User delete}} were already deleted for being "divisive". A radical interpretation could even fit things like {{User singular they:Yes}} and {{User singular they:No}} and possibly even the Sexuality boxes and the Location boxes into the heading of "divisive". If "divisive" is not within T1, it should probably be clarified. --AySz88^-^ 01:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just recently realized where the word "divisive" had been coming from - {{db-divisive}}. --AySz88^-^ 06:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems like there's a problem with divisive being used, as visible from all this discussion, so how about the template is moved to {{db-inflammatory}}? No one has objected to that part of the CSD yet. Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 07:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Clearly this policy is too subjective to be workable. See Wikipedia:Userboxes/Regional_Politics for instance. Some editors apparently define "polemical or inflammatory" a lot differently than I do, and take it to mean any userbox expressing any opinion whatever. Since these need no debate, and if any one administrators defines them as problematic they're going, you're basically giving all administrators subjective power to delete any template they'd like. This in turn, leaves us to waste a lot of time at Deletion Review, and frankly piss a lot of users off. This isn't working as a short-term solution, won't work as a long term solution, and should be immediately suspended in favor of exploring more workable alternatives. Sarge Baldy 18:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. It's pretty clear what "polemical or inflammatory" is supposed to mean; the problem is just that there are a moderate number of noisy people who don't like it. Declaring a policy that you don't like as "unworkable" is a nice way to try to undermine it, but this is the policy, it's the policy for the right reason, and you had better either decide to live with it, or move on. Kelly Martin (talk) 20:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

To me "polemical" implies an unconventional opposition to other opinions. "Inflammatory" is completely subjective, and effectively translates to "anything that bugs you enough to want to delete it". The only thing "inflammatory" here is authoritarian actions to censor people. I'm surprised your own "DeviantART deviant" userbox hasn't been deleted yet. To someone with no sense of humor, that might be taken to mean you promote deviant criminal activity. Sarge Baldy 20:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm impressed by the sheer ridiculousness of the arguments people will make to support their position against deleting offensive userboxes. It seems that the advocates against deleting inappropriate userboxes are incapable of exercising common sense, or in relying on others to do so. Kelly Martin (talk) 22:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, userboxes that aren't the least bit inflammatory or polemical(ex. {{User no evil boxes}}) are being deleted for no reason. --D-Day Somebody talk to me. Please somebody! Anybody! 22:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

(I have removed a section of my comments which added nothing to this discussion but more divisiveness. This debate requires rational discourse, and I apologize for having made the discussion personal.) I fear that this criterion for deletion is now being used to justify the deletion of just about anything. I don't mean to be polemical, but I must unfortunately conclude that the failures of this policy have as much to do with its vague language and subjectiveness as with the willingness of some administrators to use this new policy to delete any and all userboxes they don't like, or that they simply believe they can now get away with deleting. Not all deletions fall under this description; IMO, some have been rightfully deleted as having been too divisive. But this policy simply serves as too much of a gateway for administrators who would war against userboxes, or, through camraderie with User:Kelly Martin, would wish to strike a blow for her aforementioned cause. There is something to be said for divisiveness, but this CSD seems to attempt to fix the mosaic of Wikipedia with dynamite.

Crappy analogy, perhaps, but I'm running out the door. JDoorjam Talk 23:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

That's all well and good. Now, go ahead and explain why I aided in the deletion and we'll see how far your remarks get you. Mackensen (talk) 23:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, what did you delete, and why? JDoorjam Talk 23:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I recognize and appreciate that JDoorjam has apologized for the above comments (although I note that removing them would go a long way to show that his apology is sincere). However, I'd like to point out that he argues from false premises. I do not have a "cause" of eliminating userboxes. As anyone can see, I have seven of them on my own user page. My opposition is to the culture that underlies this explosion of userboxes. (Originally, it was merely to the persistent use of unlicensed media in userboxes, but grew into the broader opposition it is today based on the recalcitrant insistence of those fond of userboxes to ignore both the law and Wikipedia policy regarding the use of unlicensed media.) If your userboxes do not tend to divide Wikipedians into camps along lines other than the flatly trivial (i.e. "This user likes the color blue" is ok since that's flatly trivial), are not intended to insult, degrade, or vilify any particular group or person (and would not be viewed as doing so by a reasonable person regardless of intent), and do not abuse unlicensed media, I will be (and always have been) most happy to leave them alone. I might even consider adding your userbox to my page (but don't count on it). The categories of userbox I oppose (the ones outlined above) I oppose because they are harmful to Wikipedia, not because I dislike userboxes. So I would ask that people stop stating that I hate userboxes because this simply isn't true. Thank you, and have a nice day. Kelly Martin (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me pretty premature to call anything "failed policy". We haven't seen whether Wikipedia crumbles because it loses too many valuable templates under CSD:T1. I'm particularly struck by the impatience displayed. This is just part of a very natural ebb and flow process. Lots of userboxen are getting deleted, good. Probably a few too many, good. When this cycle runs its course, the ones that end up actually being missed can be brought back in a prevailing atmostphere entirely different from what we're seeing now. We'll observe their deletion and recreation, and we'll learn, and it'll be great. Most of them won't get recreated, because we won't miss them, it'll turn out. Nothing on Wikipedia is permanent, and almost nothing is urgent. There's too many userboxes now. We're doing some major pruning, any important chunks lost will be replaced later. It's ok. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm personally less concerned about the loss of the userboxes, which are really relatively unimportant, and more concerned about the contributors such deletions will alienate and upset, like the one who posted this. The sole justification for this rule is that it prevents community disruption - but it doesn't look like anyone is doing any sort of measurement to determine whether we have more community disruption with or without the rule. This is the kind of objective data we need to determine whether it should be retained. Deco 23:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, that kind of objective data isn't likely to be forthcoming, but that's true in most policy decisions, in most contexts. We don't get to test policies in a lab, and then apply the proven best one; we don't get to compare worlds in which we act some way to worlds in which we don't. Taking the boxes down hurts Wikipedia a little bit. Leaving them up hurts Wikipedia a little bit. There's no way to measure any of it. People who leave sometimes come back. Others will join who might or might not have if we'd acted differently now. It's all very fluid. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Sarge. Intentions might have been good, but as this is being usesd to bypass TfD and is generating HUGE amount of discussion, wasting time that could've been spend doing some cosntructive work (like content creation, for example), I think this policy must be revised.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 00:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, what staggers me is the time that went into creating the things in the first place which could have been spent in the article space. This business about bypassing TfD is bunk, frankly. It no more bypasses TfD than article speedy deletions bypass AfD. What you have to ask yourself is why people are going to such extertions to protect content declared to be speedyable. Mackensen (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Speedable articles are junk in the mainspace. Userboxes, on the other hand, are something related to the Wikipedians community. Hence the opposition. Deleting them is viewed by some as attack on that community - at least that's what I think. As for time waste, well, people need their distractions and fun. You may as well argue that Wikipedia:Barnstars should be deleted because they waste people time (when they create them), and they differentiate users, creating possible conflict on the grounds that some have more awards then others. And let's not get started on how arbitrary the barnstar award process is...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Right. It's fair to consider them a waste of time, but they're also good for overall morale. And if we're going to fight people using opinionated userboxes, are we going to be consistent and scour userpages for potentially offensive text? I tend to think of userpages as people's offices, and userboxes as a personalized decoration. They keep things comfortable while you do your work. I don't see why it matters to anyone else what's in my office, and I don't want some people coming in there and throwing stuff away and breaking things just in case someone might potentially have a problem with them. Sarge Baldy 01:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well, apparently to some, the Palestine userbox was polemical and divisive, but the Israel box was not. [7]. In any case, shame on anyone saying a non-consensual policy was done "for the right reason". It was done in the wrong way, and all attempts at the right way were discarded in favor of this. Better, I guess, to have completely subjective criteria than clearly defined ones! - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 02:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I was not that boring. I found it pleasant to read, especially besause I agree with it. There is something fundamentally wrong with the T1 policy - not that it is inherently bad. It's purpose is indeed to kill rubbish such as "This user f***s you!" on sight, but the words "divisive" and "inflammatory" are certainly abused on WP:UBD, so they should be explained, if not changed. The omnipresent "Jimbo said so!" comments are also disturbing, but this topic belongs elsewhere (and probably deserves an even longer "rant"). Misza13 ^(Talk) 19:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I have added the following paragraph to this page:

Speedy deletion is not a means of avoiding community input and consensus. Administrators should not speedily delete a page if they have any doubt as to whether the page would be deleted after a discussion on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion or other appropriate page.

—Guanaco 01:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed your addition for the time being so that we can discuss it. The most obvious objection is that speedy deletion candidates represent policy whereas AfD votes represent various Wikipedians kicking ideas around. Policy comes first in these cases. If there's a situation where the *fD vote isn't going to endorse an obvious application of a speedy candidate then the criteria has to be changed. The obvious exception is when Jimbo has specifically endorsed the criteria (which he has). In that situation, the criteria trump *fD. Mackensen (talk) 01:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Since when did WP:CP involve discusion?Geni 06:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

From time to time yes, quite heated discussion. Physchim62 (talk) 07:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

In addition to having criteria for speedy deletion for user page templates, there ought to be "criteria for things to leave alone." These criteria also should be a lot more specific than anything about "polemical" or "divisive" or "inflammatory" user templates.

Some suggestions for things that should presumptively be left alone:

• Templates about language, ethnicity, and location;
• Templates about professional affiliations or academic degrees;
• Templates about membership in or affiliation with real-life organisations;
• Templates about participation in Wikipedia projects;
• Templates relating to editing philosophy or style on Wikipedia;
• Templates expressing personal interest or expertise in historical periods, artistic movements, scientific subjects, hobbies, and similar potentially encyclopedic subjects.

The idea being that all of these templates amount to user-volunteer suggestions about ways to improve the encyclopedia, and are meant to facilitate communication between users on projects to improve it. They are related to the core purpose of the project even if someone decides to look at them funny.

The idea being that even if an admin takes issue with such a template and decides to delete it, falling within one of these criteria would be grounds to recreate it instantly without prejudice or repercussion. Any template that falls within one of these core categories should at minimum not be speedily deleted unilaterally, and the deletion of such templates should be viewed as an abuse of power. — Smerdis of Tlön 03:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a very good idea, although I would not be certain that "anti-deletion" criteria would be widely accepted. I'd support it. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 04:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Good work! I think that these are some nice guidelines.Voice-of-All^T|@|ESP 05:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think whitelists will work. Whitelists would still clearly allow for things like "this user lives in region X and hates Y country for not giving them independence", "This user is a member of X organization" where X is an illegal organization or is morally objectionable to nearly everyone, etc. --Interiot 06:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• Membership of real world organizations is too controversial to go on a white list, viz. the political party templates: otherwise, I don't think templates covering these subjects are being speedy deleted, or even nominated for TfD. Physchim62 (talk) 06:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• The inclusionist and deletionist templates were deleted on Friday. At least one admin believes that a template expressing basic agreement with one of these meta pages is "divisive," and under the current régime one is all it takes: if the templates are divisive and should be speedy deleted, so should the meta pages they pointed to. Moreover, because of the way this was imposed, it just isn't feasible to object to a speedy deletion of a template and have anyone listen or pay attention. If not consensus, at least accountability must be restored, and the way things are now it can't be done.

  Bear in mind also that the whitelist would only protect templates that fall within its confines from speedy deletion. Templates subject to abuse could still be deleted; but this should at least require some opportunity to be heard. — Smerdis of Tlön 14:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I have expanded the scope of template speedies to cover all pages obviously intended for transclusion. Whatever folk think of the vagueness of T1, it must obviously cover things like the pedophile userbox, and there's not much point in having T1 if people can put it in userspace and enourage others to tranclude it from there. Note, I have worded this so that it has no effect on any userbox that is hardcoded onto a usepage. It is the use of userspace as 'template by another name' I've aimed at. --Doc ^ask? 15:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

This is something I very strongly endorse. Using userspace for the purpose of activities that aid the encyclopedia is great; using it as a place to put recreations of templates that have been deleted as unsuitable isn't.

Pathoschild has already been doing great work converting transcluded templates to inline code. This shows that you don't need to transclude to have a pretty userbox on your page. --Tony Sidaway 15:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit torn on this. A template in userspace does, at least, not look as official as a template in template space. If you have to type {{User:SomeGuy/SillyTemplate}} instead of {{SillyTemplate}} at least you probably realize that the template doesn't have any official endorsement. On the other hand if you type {{User:Userboxes/SillyTemplate}} maybe that does look sort of official. Haukur 15:28, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but what about {{user: genocide is cool}} which get recreated as {{User:Troll/genocide is cool}}?--Doc ^ask? 15:47, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. That kind of stuff should go wherever it dwells. I'm thinking that we might tolerate {{User:SomeGuy/MarginalTemplate}} but delete {{MarginalTemplate}}. A recent example is Karmafist's welcome template which I think ended up userfied. Haukur 15:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, if {{MarginalTemplate}} is deleted, and recreated as {{User:SomeGuy/MarginalTemplate}}, and someone creates a redirect from the former to the latter (either directly, or via a move), that the redirect should be deleted under T1, since it allows users to continue using the "official looking" name. Though all of this is a bit specific on details, I'd personally prefer reasonable, level-headed people to apply IAR sparingly to T1 to cover (presumably) unusual cases like this. --Interiot 17:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Which is why I would greatly prefer T1 be a criterion for deletion, but not speedy deletion. As a CSD, T1 lets unreasonable, non-level-headed people delete things without getting any input from anyone else. The burden is then put on the community to convince individuals to undo their actions, rather than putting the burden on the individual to convince the community their actions are the right ones to take in the first place. JDoorjam Talk 18:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, you have identified one core of the problem. Speedy deletion is not trusted by some non-admins, because it is not effectively reviewable; as this mess should prove. I suspect also that the people who are applying T1 in a draconian fashion (contrary to Jimbo's clear preference) would also apply IAR unreasonably. Septentrionalis 03:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

It's too early to include this in the published policy. This is the first I've heard of this, and I've been listening to this debate for the past week. There are a lot of people assuming this not to be the case, with some headway being made on the assumption that template policy applies to template space. That it applies to all transcludable pages is not readily obvious. JDoorjam Talk 16:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Trying to expand CSD T1 to other types of pages is a very bad idea in my opinion, since some admins can't even responsibly use T1 as it is now. The Ungovernable Force 04:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

If it walks like a template, looks like a template and acts like a template, it is a template. Once you create something in whatever namespace and declare your intent to transclude it (not to mention inviting others to do the same), and then actually do it, it is a template. I guess if we're going to let this gaping loophole stand and encourage abuse by wikilawyering, though, I suppose I can start cooking up trolling userboxen in my userspace. Whee! :D Johnleemk | Talk 05:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

T1 is being massively abused by wheel warriors to delete masses of userboxes. The policy needs to be removed not expanded.--God of War 05:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, heavens no, we have people abusing policies! What a surprising shock! How could we ever reach such a state? Let's just chuck all these policies out! Yes, that'll stop wheel warring! Johnleemk | Talk 05:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I would rather not see CSD expanded based on a hypothetical situation. Can you point to an example of such a page being used to circumvent T1? This was actually one of my arguments against T1 - if you forbid templates, people will just find more and more clever ways around it. In the limit, they can simply paste user box markup into the page, and to fight that we'd have to expand to all user page markup. Deco 05:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Seig Heil, mein Fuher! Johnleemk | Talk 06:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess that's an example. I'm worried however that the inevitable outcome will either be a restriction on all divisive content, or a repealing of the rule. People will continually circumvent the rule to push us toward the extremes. I have no problem with deleting content that causes community problems, but not on the opinion of a single editor, however respected they may be. Deco 06:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

That isn't an example at all. The UDUIW template was never in template space in the first place, and was never deleted from there. 216.49.119.44 16:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

My opinion, based on what Jimbo said; copied from DRV: There are only two fundamental reasons for speedy deletion: 1) it would be a shoe-in at *fD, or 2) decree from above. The T1 criterium clearly falls under "decree from above". In this mail on wikiEN-l, Jimbo seems to be of the opinion that it's userboxes in the Template namespace specifically that are a problem; T1 should therefore not be expanded to cover user space. Eugene van der Pijll 10:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I hate to find myself agreeing with DocGlasgow on the meaning of T1, but this seems to be common sense to me. One of the current problems with userboxes is that 'what links' here is used for categorisation and vote-stuffing.

The 'userboxes could be OK outside userspace' suggestion only (IMHO) refers to where the CODE itself is inserted into a userpage. I don't really see why swapping {{user userbox}} for {{User:SampleUser/userbox}} would solve that problem. Whereas if people simply add the <div>...</div> code to their userpage, then

1. Template space is not being used for userboxes which is good for both the perception of Wikipedia and server performance (perhaps a technically-minded person could confirm the latter point but it seems to me that it would take more server juice to 'call' the code as a template than the have it already included in the page)
2. There is no single page with a 'what links here' that can be used for vote-stuffing

I would strongly oppose any attempt to remove userbox CODE (ie manually entered/subst'd <div>...</div> boxen) from userpages, but I think DocGlasgow's modification helps to maintain the spirit of T1 (even if certain admins have abused T1 itself horrendously) Cynical 11:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

And you know they're going to, and they're going to use horribly offensive strawman arguments and intimidation tactics like the ones above. This talk page is basically just for show. They're going to do what they want, when they want it, and the divisiveness will just grow because they don't get that it isn't about the userboxes anymore: it's about certain people silencing those they don't like. Today, it's user space. Tommorrow, it's article space. Karmafist 12:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

My opinion on T1 is that some admins have interpreted it rather too loosely. I don't see too big a problem with real world ideological userboxen, although Jimbo would disagree. I just don't care whether they are kept or deleted. On the other hand, I feel very strongly about userboxes designed only to promote factionalism by stating stuff like "This user is a member of ADW" or "This user is a member of UDUIW". There's no reason for these userboxes to exist -- the only conclusion to be drawn is that they're there to promote factionalism. (CVU can be considered an exception, since there's no other faction -- just The Cunctator (talk · contribs). :p) Those need to go, no matter what namespace they're in. They are clearly polemical and divisive. Johnleemk | Talk 12:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Right. If any userboxes should be suppressed to reduce factionalism or "divisiveness", it should be those used for WikiPolitics. Deleting otherwise harmless userboxes is leading to increased fragmentation of the user base, so it's no surprise that groups are organizing to defend themselves. Frankly there wasn't a real need for wiki political organization UNTIL T1. The two seem to be confused, with some fearing real world belief orientations translate into factional groups on Wikipedia. However, there doesn't appear to be any demonstrable case of organized POV-pushing groups, where there are a number pushing for certain Wiki ideals, and these are made up of people of varying political backgrounds. And they only exist because of policies such as T1 that bypass the consensus model and leave them no other option to dissent. T1 has only fostered on Wikipedia that which it was created to fight: factionalism. Trying to control things still further through mass clumps of speedy deletions is not going to solve anything, it's only going to frustrate people still more. Sarge Baldy 17:44, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

You missed WP:CAOW, then? You have them to thank for getting the ball rolling among the anti-factionalization crowd. See especially User:Geogre's comments under the above link. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Right. That's exactly the kind of organizing I don't have qualms seeing smashed. I don't think that's anything the same to having, say, a pro-Catholic userbox. Or, for instance, a WikiProject designed to improve articles related to Catholicism. Organizing various groups can clearly be to the benefit of Wikipedia, as long as some care is taken that projects are designed to manage improvement campaigns and not simply to serve as organized POV pushing. Geogre's comments are in line, if a bit extremist. I'm just afraid the situation has moved to one far more paranoid where there is pressure to remove any evidence of personal opinion from all user pages lest they somehow come in communication with one another. Sarge Baldy 20:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

<droning_voice duration="2.5 years"> Guidelines on wikipedia are descriptive, not prescriptive.</droning_voice>

So what does Deletion review say, and what do admins in the field do, are transcluded boxes deleted, yes or no? Predominantly yes? Predominantly no? Please describe, and come up with diffs.

K THX BYE.

Kim Bruning 13:43, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd suppose the problem is that, based on a sample (limited and biased, I'm sure) of cases I've seen in the field, potentially divisive userboxes are deleted, undeleted, nominated at TfD, speedily deleted again, nominated for deletion review, recreated by a user, deleted per G4, temporarily undeleted, completely rewritten, deleted per TfD (which just concluded), restored in their original state, userfied, deleted again, renominated for deletion review, and so on. While I generally support basing policy on actual practice, I don't think we really want to codify that. Alas, sometimes one just has to accept that there is no established practice to base decisions on. </tongue_in_cheek> —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I was actually picturing writing that process down for a moment. Ooh! Lovely loops of spaghetti, and forms in triplicate. It would be a bureaucrats' dream come true! Luurrrrvveeelllyyy ...

Wait. Did I just say that? Momentary insanity, I swear.

I guess there's no consensus on the matter yet then, I take it. Best to take T1 down and have some nice people use Ignore All Rules for a while to hammer out some sane, workable guideline, then come back here and put down their findings. It's the only way to go.

We do have to somehow find ways to dicount those who come here for their daily livejournal (as opposed to say, those who are here to write an encyclopedia. Yes, I know, novel concept that.) Kim Bruning 15:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

One way would be to adopt my stricter version of T1 (see above), which only makes blatantly factionalist userboxen speedieable. Johnleemk | Talk 15:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you missed the point :-) Kim Bruning 16:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You mean you didn't mean we're supposed to "hammer out some sane, workable guideline"? Damn, maybe I should change my Babel box to en-1. Johnleemk | Talk 16:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

<droning_voice duration="2.5 years and a day"> Guidelines on wikipedia are descriptive, not prescriptive.</droning_voice>. :-/ Kim Bruning 16:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

(I'm starting to feel like a broken record... :-/ Not good. Kim Bruning 16:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC))

Normally I quite agree. But due to the sensitive nature of deletion, the speedy deletion criteria have traditionally been expanded through polls rather than admin experimentation. What would you lot say to a poll on what userboxes to allow? We could have a suffrage requirement of, say, a 3 months old account and 300 article edits. The last expansion of the criteria through a poll was quite a success. Haukur 17:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You have an interesting definition of success there, young man. <scratches head> I'd rather not use polls for expansion ever again really. How about doing some experimentation, with Deletion review as the backstop, that might be a pretty smooth way to find consensus. Seem ok to you? Kim Bruning 17:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen Wikipedia:Deletion review/Userbox debates? The experiment is already proving itself pointless. -Splash^talk 17:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

<Snicker> There's even an RFAr up :-) So whatever people are doing now isn't working. So Don't Do That ;-) Kim Bruning 17:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

But Jimbo wants (for some suitably vague meaning of "wants") us to do that ;-) —Kirill Lokshin 18:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Well yeah, but we're doing it wrong. In the same way as if you try to fly and you make like a brick, you're probably not being very succesful at the flying thing (making like a brick, yes, flying... not so much). Try something else. :-) Someone's gotta find something sometime. Hmmm, try be reasonable. Or apply the feynman algorithm, I dunno. Or talk or redirect instead of delete :-) , How about making a userbox "this user enjoys contributing to encyclopedias", and redirecting them all to there? (subtle hint that ;-) ) Let's see what we can come up with. Kim Bruning 18:16, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

That last idea is absolutely brilliant, Kim. ;-) android79 18:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Redirecting, discussing, and so forth are all fine ideas (though best accomplished by someone with the patience of a saint). Keep in mind, though, that the slightest misstep will cause the userbox in question to appear in the big yellow box, and hence result in the appearance of crowds agitating for the bloody demise of the evil anti-userbox fascists involved ;-) —Kirill Lokshin 18:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so they're ... wait

<<<<< Unindent Kim Bruning

Unindent here>>>>>
Ah, so they're organised! Hmmm! Kim Bruning 18:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

m:factionalism === bad. Johnleemk | Talk 18:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, so we're stimulating that, right? Let's Not Do That :-) Kim Bruning 18:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes! And not, in some cases, organized for defending userboxes per se; but rather for a general push against "The System" (typically taking human form in the guise of Jimbo/the Foundation/the admins/etc.), for which the userbox issue has provided a convenient pretext. —Kirill Lokshin 18:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you imagine how hard it must be to rebel against the system in an Not-An-Anarchy-But-Darn-Close-To-It?  :-) Kim Bruning 18:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

You're assuming all of them want more anarchy; some of them, at least, want a legislature ;-) —Kirill Lokshin 18:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I see oscillations in our future. Kim Bruning 19:08, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

• I second Kim's plagerism of my suggestion that we use editing and redirecting instead of admin tools. I third Kim's plagerism of my suggestion that we're stimulating factionalism. I'm very distrurbed by someone that I think completly insane agreeing with me so thoughoughly. ^_^
• My rough count shows we've got (roughly) four admins and thirteen Morlocks making up 95% of the disruption. Can't we just block them all for a month to give us the peace to work something sensible out? Or can we get them to fork to a wiki that consists of nothing but user boxes and Wikipedia project pages so they can play their games there?

brenneman^{T}{L} 22:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Morlocks"... man, this discussion is comedy gold. :-) Anyway, that sounds like an excellent plan, no matter who plagiarized it from whom. android79 03:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I second the "block the admins so we can actually come up with something instead of fighting all the time" part. 216.49.119.44 17:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I protected this because you people are edit warring over it. I didn't even read it before protecting it, so it might be protected at a version even I would not approve of. My action is not an endorsement of the current version. Kelly Martin (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

While I do not contest your protection, I think calling people "idiots" is pushing it too far. It does nothing to cool tempers but just stokes them further. --Gurubrahma 18:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No personal attacks Ashibaka tock 03:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Remove personal attacks, actually. --cesarb 03:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

RPA is controversial. I stand by my original words. Kelly Martin (talk) 14:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else see the humour in having the "attack" removed but that the comment below tells us exactly what it was? - brenneman^{T}{L} 22:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

We could fix that one, too. Then it would read "While I do not contest your protection, I think calling people people is pushing it too far", and no one would ever know that Kelly Martin called them idiots. --Aquillion 10:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to propose another CSD category. How about having T2 be for templates which do not have any pages linked to them two weeks after the most recent edit? This accomplishes several things:

1. Removes orphaned templates without the overhead of TfD.
2. Gives template authors no less than two weeks to finish and integrate their product into articles.
3. Is objective to the point that a database query can identify templates meeting this criteria.

Any endorsements? --StuffOfInterest 12:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

No, bab juju. This could for example potentially delete the {{afd}} tag. Some things are (or should) always be substituted. - brenneman^{T}{L}

• Unless and until substed templates are recorded, then as Aaron Brenneman says, this would leave templates like afd, welcome, etc up for deletion. Thryduulf 13:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I would say to not make the deletion automatic, just identification. If someone wanted to take it a step further then it may be possible to have a special comment in the standard templates so that an identifcation query does not pick these up. I'm just looking for something that keeps some of the unused templates from cluttering up TfD. Regarding subst:, I wonder if the database has any information on the last time subst: was used against a template? --StuffOfInterest 13:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Some further thought here. The page WP:SUBST lists templates which should always be substituded. This page can act as a filter to keep false positives from happening on unlinked template checks. Policy could read something like "is not included on any page, not listed in WP:SUBST, and has not been edited in the last 14 days". --StuffOfInterest 20:29, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

No, since, the subst stuff notwithstanding, this provides a means to sneakily speedy a template you don't think would be deleted through TfD. This could happen with basically no scrutiny. If you plan to effect the deletion of a template that is not a polemical userbox, take it through TfD. -Splash^talk 15:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

But that's what speedy is about nowadays! Trusting admin subjectivity on vague criteria to speedy an article you couldn't possibly get consensus on in AFD. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 20:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Right. Pretty insiduous, if you ask me. Speedy deletions used to be reserved for cases in which consensus was guaranteed, such as vandalism and nonsense pages. Now they're primarily used in cases where they would never be deleted by process. Not a very promising trend, in my opinion. Sarge Baldy 00:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

No. The beauty of unlinked templates is that they avoid the server-overload bogeyman from all those people transcluding them in other pages. In fact, maybe we should simply outlaw transcluding entirely and force all templates to be subst'ed. More and more are pushed for substing seemingly every day. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 20:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

No way, as many other said, this would mark destory templates that are primarily subst'd. (Perhpas if a code change could tell you when the last time it was subst'd though) xaosflux ^Talk/_CVU 01:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't have anything against the T1, but as it stands not, I think it's interpretation is a bit to wide and subjective. So my proposal is: "Templates with a clear intent to be divisive and/or inflammatory" (Perhaps my knowledge in the english language is a bit wauge, but or, is is execlusive or or and/or? ). _→AzaToth 14:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"Or" means "and/or" in everyday English. "Divisive or inflammatory" applies even if something is divisive and inflammatory. - Brian Kendig 18:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The word "divisive" is worse - even the inclusionist/deletionist boxes were interpreted as "divisive". --AySz88^-^ 18:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Gah, it looks like I missed when "polemical" got changed to "divisive". --AySz88^-^ 18:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

And now it's been changed back from 'polemical' to 'divisive'. What IS the current gold standard, and are we adhering to it or making it up as we go along? I'm all for getting rid of the divisiveness (see the recent attempt to stack the debate, but some sort of explanation to all parties involved would be helpful to us Morlocks. -- nae'blis _(talk) 22:12, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia stopped allowing anonymous to create articles, I've seen an upsurge in the number of talk pages without associated articles. It seems to me that such pages ought to be speedily deleteable. G8 allows for deletion of talk pages if the article has already been deleted, but it makes no mention of talk pages which have never been associated with an article. I propose that G8 be modified to include talk pages which have never had articles. NoIdeaNick 00:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Conditional support. What if the anons write an article in the talk page? Then it could be moved to the main namespace, and the talk page redirect can be deleted. The criterion should be changed so that talk pages that have nothing to do with the title can be speedied. -- King of Hearts | (talk) 01:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

• I'm confused about when this would happen. Can you post some common examples?--God of War 01:53, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

This page [8] has never existed, but the talk page [9] was deleted. The reason given for the speedy deletion of the talk page was perfectly reasonable, but it doesn't fit within the critera listed. The criteria ought to changed to explicitly allow for this type of deletion. NoIdeaNick 21:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

We don't need to create a new policy here. If admins delete such talkpages, and the deletion is sensible, and no-one sees much reason to objects, then deletion becomes policy. We update the CSD not to create policy but to reflect what is happening. So just change the CSD page now, and see if it sticks. --Doc ^ask? 21:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I figured that I ought to gauge how people feel about the change before I make it. I also wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions on the exact wording of the change. NoIdeaNick 04:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I support the proposal and the discussing of the proposal prior to adding it. Of course, as in any deletion, any useful content should be preserved in an article instead, but I think that's always true. Deco 22:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

This makes perfect sense. I don't see why an orphaned talk page should ever be created. — Feb. 27, '06 [09:03] <freakofnur_xture|>

When tagging an article as a criteria for speedy deletion, should it be marked as a major or minor edit? x42bn6 Talk 08:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, for comparison, AFD tags are never supposed to be minor. And it's hard to think of an edit less minor for an article than suggesting that it be removed from existance. So I'd say they should never be tagged as minor. --Aquillion 12:38, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The addition of deletion tags of any type should always be marked as major. NoIdeaNick 00:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

G5 is a strange criterion. If a banned user makes a contribution on George W. Bush, then that article is speediable under G5. _→AzaToth 14:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Contributions made by a banned user while they were banned. – The way I read it, this should be a history delete (delete the page, then restore all edits not by the banned user). —Locke Cole • t • c 14:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

That is one interpretation and might be appropriate to the scenario AzaToth describes above. The other and much more common scenario is when a banned user creates a page and is essentially the only editor to the page. Banned users often try to return to Wikipedia with a grudge. We've had problems with banned users attempting to return to post rants, etc. This second scenario is what led to the creation of this particular deletion criterion. Rossami (talk) 14:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, okay, in the case you describe I could definitely see deleting the page entirely. —Locke Cole • t • c 14:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be removed, only clarified. It applies as Locke says, or to new articles created by a banned user. android79 14:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

G5 is a strange criterion. If a banned user makes a contribution on George W. Bush, then that article is speediable under G5. _→AzaToth 14:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed before and I still disagree, but I understand why others don't like this criterion. Everyone's edits and articles are modified, reverted or deleted on their merits. If a banned user's edits get the same treatment, there is no difference between a regular user and one who has been banned. They can just keep creating new accounts to edit with, or edit anonymously if they are on a shared or dynamic IP. The time on their block, for those not permanently banned, would be reset, but that's it. However, in exceptional cases, such as an article that has been heavily modified following the edits the banned user made, it might be appropriate to leave the editor's contribution. -- Kjkolb 14:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

If a banned user is editing his/her talk page, the that talk page is speediable I assume. _→AzaToth 17:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't be silly. You seem to be intentionally misreading the policy, which does not say "pages edited by banned users". It says "contributions made by a banned user". That is very clear wording. A tiny bit of common sense tells you so, and I should imagine even the WP community can manage that. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 17:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that this requires a modicum of common sense. Stifle 17:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't my intention to missread, I just thought it was a strange criterion. _→AzaToth 23:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

With no apparent justification beyond, We think Jimbo wants it this way, certain admins have cut a broard swathe through Wikipedia:Userboxes/Regional Politics, deleting boxes right and left. How does this square with, The community overwhelmingly agrees that these things are a problem, and there is not yet clear consensus on what to do about it.[10], or, I want people to ask slowly and thoughtfully with deep respect for others, even others with whom they disagree. [11] See this past version for a sense of how much has been cut. [12]

Should admins be running around acting unilaterally in the name of Jimbo?

StrangerInParadise 17:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The only thing more lame than userboxes is spending time fighting about userboxes. It's ironic that "this doesn't help the encyclopedia" has become a rallying cry for some of the anti-userbox crusaders. Fighting over deletion of userboxes doesn't help the encyclopedia either. Friday (talk) 17:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

And if users didn't use userboxes, no-one would delete them. I hope you can see how circular this debate is. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 17:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo is something akin to the Pope or Alan Greenspan. There are these columns of devout pilgrims, ever seeking his guidance, whom immediately rush in and act upon his slightest word, or what they think his words are. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 17:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Of course, one of the main problems in the "userbox wars" is the level of civility used by both "sides". Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 17:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

In reply to KeithTyler, I believe Jimbo has tried in good conscience to use his special position carefully to voice his concerns whilst not precipitating reckless action. I would imagine he is surprised and dismayed by some of the results. For my part, I will highlight the worse ones as I can. He has been particularly let down by the poor technical advice he has been given.

In reply to Sam Korn, I beg to differ, the real problem is the anti-userbox faction attacking the very core of the community by pushing this change and acting unilaterally to implement it immediately. Any incivility on the pro-userbox side doesn't even come close to that.

In reply to Friday, there are many things I'd rather be doing, but fighting to oppose this lame change is far worse than doing nothing. If lameness thereby attaches, I'll reluctantly wear it.

StrangerInParadise 18:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Userboxes are the "core of the community" now? My, my, how did we ever get by without them? android79 17:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

This is the same community that now has 1000000 members. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 19:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure you would say that. And, of course, the other side considers your side solely at fault. This is as bad as Palestinian Exodus. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 19:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The ability to associate is at the core of any community this diverse, certainly a global one of a million editors. Prior to userboxes, I'd say we muddled along, but with a diminished sense of who our fellow Wikipedians were. StrangerInParadise 18:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, real interactions and relationships are formed on talk pages here. They are created from debate, discussion and finding consensus in subject areas they have in common. It's a deeper more meaningful idea of who we are working with. Userboxes are one line single dimensional expressions of how much someone likes X. The real core of the encyclopedia happens on talk pages where editors work together to build an encyclopedia. Rx StrangeLove 18:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Like this one? --cesarb 19:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, but seeing as we're here to write an encyclopedia it would be more effective if we were talking about an article. But having said that, we're learning more about each other just in this section alone then we would if all our pages were filled with userboxes. Data points do not a community make. Rx StrangeLove 19:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Rx this is a false either/or. Community is fostered by talk pages, user pages, user boxes and more. StrangerInParadise 19:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

But it isn't. Someone with userboxes on their page is thinking that they are interacting with fellow editors, but they are not. Until userboxes bacame a popular way of stating our preferences we did so through talking to each other. We are moving from a culture of interaction to one of bumperstickers. Like I said above, they are just datapoints with no form or substance to them but people are mistaking them for interaction. And that's why it's an either or...either they are effective means of interaction and community building or they are not. Rx StrangeLove 19:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

So we go from having a diminished sense of who others are to having a superficial one. We go from mainly showing our similarities to mainly showing our differences. My, userboxes are brilliant! Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 19:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Track with me Sam, we are not going from anything. We have gone to a cultural leitmotif not unlike bumperstickers and buttons, which greatly enrich our experience of our fellow wikipedians. I learn things about a user from them I might not discover in an exaustive reading of all their posts. Some of those things, they might not even declare but for the concision offered by userboxes. Yes, they are brilliant, and, pace Jimbo, very Wikipedia. StrangerInParadise 19:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me, I had forgotten I was arguing with the "bumper sticker" US culture here. My mistake. Of course, some people prefer a more in depth view of people. And it was you who brought up "after userboxes". Are you arguing for a vacuum before? No. People used whole sentences and, golly gosh, paragraphs. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 22:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the best, most creative, most expressive userpages here don't use any boxen. Reading that predigested little soundbytes "greatly enrich" anything makes me want to cry. Not only do userboxes fail to "enrich" our experience of each other, they also encourage too-easy categorization and intellectual laziness. People dedicated to writing an encyclopedia should always be pursuing a more faceted, more nuanced view of any subject. Dividing all users into those with a Big-endian userbox and those with a Little-endian userbox is the antithesis of actual thinking. "Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said 'If you label me, you negate me'?" (Name that film!) -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

(Wayne's World). I couldn't agree more with the above. The worst to thing that can happen to anyone around here is be pigeon-holed. Mackensen (talk) 23:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Sam, I know at first hand that bumperstickers are common outside the US as well, nice try playing the superior foreign culture card. As for the rest of you weepy snobs, which is the greater threat to culture, a banal button, or fascist censorship? If you don't like userboxen, don't use them, rather than voting on what you think will force others to your standards. StrangerInParadise 23:35, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Which is a greater threat? The banal button, every time. Banality comes on like a friend, and eats the soul. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA. android79 23:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Whom am I attacking, weepy snobs or fascist censors? StrangerInParadise 00:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"Weepy snobs"? Whoo-hoo! Thank you, StrangerInParadise, that's wonderful. I wept twice when I read it, and laughed three times. Are you always this fun?

I would hope that anyone who cares about intellectual standards would also find compartmental thinking distasteful. ({{User no pigeon}}: "This user finds compartmental thinking distasteful.") I would also hope that encyclopedias are written, for the most part, by people who care about intellectual standards. That's all just my POV of course, arrived at between fits of uncontrollable sobbing.

You make a good point. One should definitely distinguish that argument, which doesn't carry any kind of universality, and which I would never base policy on, from an entirely different argument, on which I would base policy. Transcluded userboxes enable organization by POV in a way that's unhealthy for the project. That one has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a snob; it has to do with the fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.

You see, StrangerInParadise, Some users really like to band together by POV and block-vote in AfD discussions, etc. Decisions on those pages should be made as thoughtfully and neutrally as possible, and although it isn't, strictly speaking, a vote, it remains the case that "busing voters" can and sometimes does influence the outcome. That has to be discouraged. One very good way to discourage it is to go ahead and not provide tools for the easy organization of blocks of people who've signed on as supporting a particular POV (and who, moreover, have already shown a tendency to think in a black-and-white way about it :P). Enabling the systematic introduction of bias seems like a Bad Idea. We should figure out how to make it very clear that people who would act that way are actually not welcome here. An encyclopedia should not be written by lobbyists. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do try, it's all about the fun. I'm glad you appreciated it, Android79 seemed to miss the joke there for a moment. And, yes, we can jaw about the banality of evil and all that, but I would find the total absence of bumperstickers far more disturbing that the usual selection of platitudes. We shall have to agree to disagree for now— a pleasure deferred, no doubt.

On to the dreaded transcluded userbox with organization of users by POV. I disagree specifically with the idea that this is bad for the project, or that it increases the possibility of systematic bias. As you can see from my counter-proposal to the policy change under consideration, I favor providing even better tools for doing so. If you consult Wikipedia:Voting is evil (not a position to which I strongly subscribe), you see the comment, Wikipedia is not a democracy. This is a strength, not a failing. Dialectics is one of the most important things that make Wiki special, and while taking a poll is very often a lot easier than helping each other find a mutually agreeable position, it's almost never better. The brilliance of userboxen is that it facilitates association, and synergizes like minds, while at the same time signals to opponents that there is some body of shared opinion of a topic which should be respected. Frankly, I would even pepper userboxen into talk comments, as many do with page links, just to give a heads-up that there is a different perspective coming to the discussion.

Here is my short take on the matter. Userboxes should be in their own namespace and florish madly. Most concerns about this stem from flawed notions of NPOV, consensus, diversity and the ramifications of association. Whatever problems there are— and I have yet to be convinced there are serious problems— will only be made worse by this proposal. Wikipedia should be a work of neutrality produced by a passionate diversity.

The problem isn't that some article might receive a fatwa from some yahoo claiming to speak for a set of users bearing a userbox, the problem is the institutional weakness which might make such a force irresistible, for example an anti-Wikilawyering culture, poor debate process and a shaky understanding of the essence of NPOV. Telling people they cannot declare themselves Christian believer or Unreconstructed Trotskyite or Extra-crunchy Hippie Freak does not reinforce the culture of NPOV. Showing how these people have an immediate common basis for dialog based on NPOV does. That is the true power of NPOV and the beauty of Wikipedia. You are far too eager to roll up the welcome mat.

StrangerInParadise 03:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

When you say "...signals to opponents that there is some body of shared opinion of a topic which should be respected", that implies that the "opponents" should do the same and signal via another "body of shared opinion" - which tends towards a few seperate bodies of shared opinon. That seems to me to be the creation of factions and a tug of war effect between the seperate "shared opinions". I think the stable NPOV goal of Wikipedia is not produced by such a tug of war between POVs, as you seem to be suggesting. Such a system doesn't seem to be good for encyclopedia-wide cooperation, and a diversity of radical POVs probably won't end up balancing to create NPOV - articles and issues would just keeping bouncing around NPOV in a volatile tug of war with "opponents". Reducing the volatility means trying to reduce POV in each individual contribution, in the recognition that there are no opponents unless you make them so. --AySz88^-^ 04:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The implication does not necessarily hold. I have been a Wikipedian for many years, and did not bother with userboxen or even a user page until the current crisis, yet I have held my own in many discussions. Bear in mind also that you sometimes get overlap in userbox groups that make for unique syntheses. What you would call a tug-of-war, I call simply ambiance, and have always found it conducive to cooperation. Have you considered that your notion of what userboxen actually do is itself too static? I find the formation of factions useful, as it simplifies how to create common ground between them. StrangerInParadise 04:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

While diversity is nice, and will always exist, having a bunch of simple, over-confidant, and dogmantic 2D voices do not add up to a good represention. An article created by a right-wing zealot, a dogmanitic doomsdayer, an "anything goes" far-leftist "freedom fighter", and a person who thinks Bush is an evil entity worse than Hitler will end up being a choppy, broken, inconsistant, poorly styles and will be pro-POV in some anti-POV in other sections. Look at my user page. Diversity is nice, and we all vary, but keep in mind the "voice of all", lets try to be 3D each as ourselves. If you think that Bush's presidency has expanded the scope of presidential authority beyond that of the consitution...be intellectual and academic by writting a well written essay on it, maybe have it on your main page or link it. What you should not do is be divisive and "sound-bytish" by saying things like "Bushes edit to the constitution need to be reverted" which is technically invalid as the constitution is the same.

What I am getting at is that we need an academic, intellectual environment here to at least some extent. This leads top quality articles and good discussion/dialogue. Quick soundbytes (like boxes) and snappy, divisive, language without any though behind them is just NOT a good environment. My own userboxes link to to an article that explains exactly what I support, and there is nothing divisive about them. If I said "this user is sick of right-wing christians that commit global suicide by ignoring the environment", then we would have a problem. That is based of an assertion that is not proven/discussed, and blindly and visciously attacks a large group of people (and it over-generalizes).

Without getting into the views themselves too much, I just think that presentation is often the main problem. If someone held a racist views with regards to intellect and civility, I would not agree, but if they wrote about it in a calm enough/reasonable way I wouldn't go "delete happy", though likely the essay would not be that polite, but who knows? Lets just try to keep an academic environent though, as I believe that is is helpful in creating a hight quality encyclopedia.Voice-of-All^T|@|ESP 04:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean; I wasn't talking about userboxes at all, but the more general issue of how "proud" expression of bias - in the "body of shared opinion" sense - does not lead to NPOV (which does cover some userboxes, but not necessarily all bias userboxes). --AySz88^-^ 04:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

AySz88, I'm not sure to whom that Huh? is directed, but my statement still applies to proud expressions of bias. The very hair-splitting futility of distinguishing the right sort of userbox is far more divisive, and anti-intellectual. If I embrace a label, I may risk that Kierkegaardian negation, but that is my problem, and I am comfortable managing it. If you presume that a userbox is some sort of 2D-label, that is your misperception. Most of these predictions/observations that userboxen breed shallow, rigid perspectives is far from established. As for the whole vote busing thing, why would anyone think this can't be organized off-site? It is better to watch it happen here, where we are Wikipedians, than out there, where we are activists.

The real problem I see in these recent comments is the subtext of elitism, culture of bumpersickers, sound-bitish, without any thought behind it, as if we are in a position to decide how to prevent others from expressing themselves or associating in too trivial a fashion, so as to make them better contributors in our eyes. Many Wikipedians are thoughtful, some are not. Too bad. This is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, a non-negotiable Foundation principle. Instead of deciding whose userbox to delete next, why not go referee an article in contention, and show them how it ought to be done? Lead by example, not prior restraint.

StrangerInParadise 05:24, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That "Huh?" was indeed posted in response to you (before Voice of All had posted). I still don't understand things like "Have you considered that your notion of what userboxen actually do is itself too static?" because I don't know what notion you are referring to, especially as my post didn't have anything to do specifically with userboxes. In addition, I'm not sure of what "I have been a Wikipedian for many years, and did not bother with userboxen or even a user page until the current crisis, yet I have held my own in many discussions." was supposed to be an example.

In either case, we are getting offtopic (this was originally about people abusing T1), and perhaps this discussion on userboxes should be continued somewhere better like the talk page of WP:UBX? --AySz88^-^ 05:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to have been unclear, only the first bit was specifically to you. I was refuting the notion that, that implies that the "opponents" should do the same and signal via another "body of shared opinion", that I had not felt compelled to do so, and yet had engaged such a body positively. However, no, it would not be a bad thing for opponents to organize, if that made sense.

Much of what followed was to whomever preceded me, and even contained a bit of esprit d'éscalier. As to T1, it should be deleted in its entirety.

StrangerInParadise 06:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

This should not be in effect, that is, no template should be deleted by it. It should be listed as proposed. BTW, polemical is way too broad, and unsanctioned by anything— why is it still there in T1? StrangerInParadise 07:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Without commenting on whether it SHOULD be or not, I believe it is considered by many to BE in effect, so defacto it is. ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

People thought that Jimbo had imposed it by decree but he has since clarified that it is not what he meant to do. Let's just remove it, it's pretty redundant now with a new userbox policy about to be accepted and no consensus has ever been demonstrated for it. Personally I do think divisive and inflammatory templates should be deleted but it's too subjective a criterion to be handled at the CSD-stage, it needs to be applied at the TFD-stage. Haukur 13:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Go for it! StrangerInParadise 20:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I did. I think this deletion criterion—which I happen to agree with—is much better applied at the TfD-stage. If people really want this as a speedy deletion criterion then it should get 70% support in a poll the way we normally expand the speedy deletion criteria. Haukur 13:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, the new userbox policy is sinking fast unfortunately, there was a clear consensus a few days ago but now it's not even close to consensus. T1 has been in use now and should be retained until we have an alternative or Jimbo removes it. For those reasons I'm going to put it back, at the very least until there's more conversation about it's removal. There's a note about the ongoing discussion around T1 on the page. For now at least we it needs to be kept until we can get something else in place Rx StrangeLove 16:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it may have been erroneously in use is irrelevant. The fact that Jimbo put the clause there himself (in its divisive and inflamatory version) means something, but I am uncertain what— express sovereign will? It could be that the Jimbo intended his edit as that of a commoner, but the comments by others claiming it is therefore sacrosanct are out of order. He should clarify, if for no more reason than that the poor guy would find his normal participation on Wikipedia problematic. I first pointed out on the project page that the alleged Jimbo endorsement of polemic was wrong, then when my comment got snipped, I reverted the language so as to make true the endorsement. This, to my surprise in these thuggish times, has held.

That said, I would support Jimbo's language on it's merits, provided it were a very constrained reading of divisive and inflamatory, though generally offensive would work better- there are many things that are divisive which should be fought out. The general idea should be, IMO, if a template's unparameterized content cannot go on a userpage, it is a CSD for a template.

StrangerInParadise 18:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It's my understanding that he didn't write it, someone else did. He restored it when it was removed. I would direct you all to the second stanza of the Koan of Jimbo: he has explicitly told us that there have been "no decrees from me" regarding the form of this policy, so, really, T1 should be allowed to have some flexibility, IMHO. JDoorjam Talk 19:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine, but escalating to polemic, then claiming endorsement by Jimbo (so as to inhibit further editing) was out of order. Were this not so charged a time, I would replace in its entirety CSD-T1 with something affirming that if a template's unparameterized content cannot go on a userpage, it is a CSD for a template. This would sidestep all the anti-userbox nonsense. BTW, I saw the originals of your kōan, and responded there. StrangerInParadise 19:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have to butt in here on a technical point. I think it is incorrect to say the wording was "escalated" to polemic. I think if you check the definition (and I had to), you'll find that "polemical" is a more strict standard since it requires that the content be intended to incite disruption. The alternate language merely requires that the content be divisive - an easier standard to meet since you don't have to demonstrate intent. If we're going to react so strongly to subtle differences in words, I'd ask that we do so with the correct definitions. Rossami (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

No need to apologize, but I disagree. Something described by the term polemic need not be disruptive or even divisive, but simply disputatious. Thus, it is an escalation. I stand by my earlier assertion, as well as by my recomendation to scrap T1 altogether and replace it with language consistent with that governing a user page. StrangerInParadise 22:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The recent change to G5 to exclude the creation of pages by banned users from their ban is incorrect, per WP:BAN which says "Deletion: It is not possible to revert newly created articles, as there is nothing to revert to. However, such pages are a candidate for speedy deletion. Non-sysops can list such pages on speedy deletions instead, adding a {{delete}} header". The exclusion of userpages is also incorrect since "Banned users are simply not authorized to edit Wikipedia". -Splash^talk 16:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"Templates that have been in existance for more than one month and are used on only one page." Basically, so we don't have to deal with all of the single-use templates on TfD - they should obviously all be substed and deleted. This shouldn't as controversial as T1. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 16:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Not a very good idea, in my opinion. There are some series-box-type templates that link primarily to articles which don't exist yet; this wording would allow deleting them if only one of the listed articles happens to exist at the moment. —Kirill Lokshin 17:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If you mean succession boxes, we have the generic {{succession box}}. Series boxes (such as on history of Germany should not be created where the majority are red links. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 18:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to get more specific, I meant the templates listed here. They're something of a special case, I suppose—not really series boxes per se—but it's not uncommon to see them with many red-links. —Kirill Lokshin 18:20, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Kirill Lokshin. CSDs should only be established when there is no use to considering them in the relevant deletion process, rather than for things that are usually deleted by them. TfD is not a busy place, when people can keep their userbox rages in check, adn it can easily give them the loving attention they need. -Splash^talk 17:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I am fully in support of this policy. Limiting it to templates not intended for use on articles also works. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 18:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it is broken in its present form. At the moment, someone would have simply to edit out all uses of a template they dislike and tag it for speedy. It can be gone within a few minutes, and it is basically impossible for the deleting admin to determine what happened. -Splash^talk 19:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this idea. Subst'ing and deleting is a contradictory concept since it's easier to subst an existing template than recover the template code from elsewhere. I consider such moves backdoor attempts at phasing out unwanted templates, particularly in the recent case of Marksweep substing templates wherever possible and then asserting its newly established orphan status as acceptable grounds for speedy deletion. Sarge Baldy 20:29, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

In this, MarkSweep was on the rampage last night, and got 3RR blocked. I found subsequently he had subst'd one of my templates on my userpage, which he knew he didn't have leave to do. StrangerInParadise 20:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, while I agree that Mark was being a prat, it does bear mentioning that it's not a requirement that someone give permission for changes on "their" user page. It's the foundation's user page. - brenneman^{T}{L} 21:51, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not a requirement (after all, my user page wears User:Mindspillage/userpages, thank you Mindspillage for creating it, to show I understand that), but it certainly is a long tradition (cue music from Fiddler on the Roof) not to make changes that might be perceived as destructive rather than helpful to user pages of others. So I don't think I agree with the actions of MarkSweep in this regard. PS props to User:Haukurth for being bold! ++Lar: t/c 14:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo has stated that he has made no decree regarding this, and there certainly is no consensus for this criterion. So why is it still there? I am going to remove it if there is not a very good reason why it needs to stay. —Guanaco 15:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, he must not consider this a decree, he put it there himself after it was removed. It should be kept til he says different. Rx StrangeLove 15:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

If it's not a decree, then it must have simply been an edit, subject to reversion or modification like any other. —Guanaco 15:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Not really, he has the right to enforcement, a right he's excercised in other areas recently. It upsets some editors but he still has that right. Rx StrangeLove 15:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I am going to leave a message at User talk:Jimbo Wales asking for his input here. If he doesn't respond within a few days, we can remove the criterion. Is that fair? —Guanaco 15:58, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Leave a note and see if he responds, I think we should wait for him though. I also think the response already there is about right, but let's see what he says, understanding that he generally takes more then a couple days to respond to comments on his talk page. Rx StrangeLove 16:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

T1 is subject to community alteration and discussion. It has been edited many times, will continue to be edited and debated. Consensus is to keep it as modified by the community. Don't delete it. Debate it. Alter it to fit consensus if needed, as we have done all along. WAS 4.250 16:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that there is no consensus that it should exist at all. —Guanaco 16:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Earlier, based on experience using it, the rule seemed somewhat broken as written. (See earlier discussion on this page I guess) If it hasn't changed much... well, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission. <innocent look> We can always discuss with Jimbo when/if he comes to revert. <actually looks innocent for real for once> Kim Bruning 17:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Or we could respect his intentions when he put it there and respect the editors who worked on the modifications since. Rx StrangeLove 17:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Their intentions may be good, but their addition is not. Bad edits can be made in good faith. —Guanaco 20:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd much rather see the CSD arise from community consensus (for instance, as a result of a systematic poll, like the last CSD expansion) than from unilateral action. If it's good and consensus exists for it, then it would pass such a poll. — brighterorange (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, let's remove it or maybe move it to the WP:TFD page. If you want to have it here then either get a clear statement from Jimbo that it is policy by decree or run a poll and have it get more than 70% support there the way we usually expand the speedy deletion criteria. In my opinion this is too subjective a criterion to be applied at the CSD level where admins make decisions alone. We've certainly had conflict about templates lately and that's a difficult problem but this deletion criterion has not done anything to fix them. Haukur 20:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Gosh no no no, no more polls on Criteria For Speedy Deletion, it's a disaster zone as is. :-/ Can we just determine that deleting divisive&inflammatory templates does not work as intended (if that's indeed still the case), and leave it out for now? No more nomic! Kim Bruning 21:41, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I think him putting it here in the first place is a pretty clear statement and I don't see why he should have to renew his intentions for it's inclusion. He's aware of what's going on, at least on some level, and if he wanted it gone he'd say something. Having said that I'm not going to sit here and try and cling to it, because it works both ways. If he wanted it here so bad he'd say also something.

I just want something in place as a control. The new userbox policy is sinking below the waves and I feel like we need something speaking to userboxes on a policy level. So, I don't know. How about if we wait a day or two, if no word then remove it. If anyone would like to work in a small group to create something to present to the community to replace it I'd be interested. Rx StrangeLove 22:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it needs to be replaced. It just needs to go. —Guanaco 05:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, a lot of people disagree. Rx StrangeLove 06:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but the criterion should not be removed at this point - there's absolutely no consensus to remove it, and given that Jimbo (re)placed it in, it should remain until either he deems so otherwise or until there's widespread support for removing it. The community had already come to accept it, and I don't see many people favoring its removal. True, Jimbo's additions can be modified and changed, but outrightly removing it while discussion is under way and considerable opposition to its removal should not be done. I urge you to revert your removal, Guanaco, while we discuss this further. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding? I don't think very many people support this policy at all. It is true he added it back in. But that was also back in early January and since then he's made comments along the lines of changing the culture of Wikipedia rather than making forceful changes. Clearly he needs to be approached on the topic. Sarge Baldy 00:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I haven't spent looked over all the talk pages in their entirety, but a quick scan shows a divided community on this issue. However, what makes this case unique is that Jimbo Wales has shown his support of this criterion and asked us to consider it thoughtfully - and that's what we're doing here. I don't see an immediate need to remove the criterion, especially given Jimbo's words. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

When Guanaco removed T1, his edit summary read:

remove - Jimbo didn't impose this, and it certainly doesn't have consensus.)

I don't believe either to be true and I'm disappointed that Guanaco represtented his opinions as fact. Rx StrangeLove 00:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Given that Guanaco has not been reverted by someone else, I sense a wheel war coming on - something that we should not be doing, and something that Jimbo has expressedly forbidden. (Not that wheel warring is ever good...) Please, everyone, calm down and talk here first before we do any more reverting. Discussion never hurts. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to avert one, but it looks like it might be too late, Splash has reverted. As I've been saying I'd like to keep it for now. I think Guanaco needs better justifications to remove it than he's given to this point. It's not at wheel war level yet. Rx StrangeLove 00:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I added an extra word in my comment: I meant to say Given that Guanaco has been reverted.... Please, everyone, under no circumstances should we be wheel-warring. Let's talk this thing out and not edit the page anymore, instead of reverting each other over and over... I'd hate to see this situation degenerate into a wheel war. Please, let's act calmly and with respect to everyone. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 01:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I could remove the criterion all day (not that I would), and it wouldn't be a wheel war. Wheel warring involves the repeated use of admin powers by definition. —Guanaco 01:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

(indent shift) It's an edit war, not a wheel war. (Unless some admins are abusing rollback...) Johnleemk | Talk 01:08, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't care whether it's called a wheel war or edit war: Jimbo's message was extremely clear, and I think my comments were as well. All I ask is that we don't revert each other, we act with great civility, and we assume good faith to everyone. Let's try and keep this situation calm and not escalate it into any kind of a war or conflict. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 01:15, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Like I said above, I'm disapointed that Guanaco is representing his opinion as fact as a basis to remove T1. I'm not going to sit here and edit war over it. But I don't think it's out of line to ask him to justify them. Both in terms of Jimbo not imposing it and to what extent has or doesn't have consensus. And certainly Jimbo might weigh in also. I do reserve the right to replace it if some better justification isn't shown. Rx StrangeLove 02:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is quite obvious that a template like "This user thinks that niggers stink" should be speedy deletable. The question is where are the boundaries. In my opinion anything that attacks others rather than endorses something or represents legitimate criticism should be speedy deleted. That in my eyes includes "This user does not tolerate Marxism" or even "fascism" as long as we allow to have political party user boxes given that there are marxist and fascist parties around and we cannot set up double standards for them.

? ? ?

ROGNNTUDJUU! thinks that users who cross out flags show a lack of respect for those represented by them and therefore created this template.

02:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Right. I think userboxes clearly designed as personal attacks should be deleted. I think that was Jimbo's purpose in using the word "polemic". The word "divisive" is subjective enough to make almost anything speediable. In short I think "This user is a neo-Nazi." is fine but "This user will not tolerate Jews." is polemic and inflammatory. Sarge Baldy 02:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, right. I think "divisive" is too open to different interpretations by different admins and thus likely to lead to discord (as we have seen). But we all seem to agree that templates which only exist to attack or disparage individuals or groups of people can be speedy-deleted. Let's try a wording like that and maybe we can have a T1 which has an actual consensus behind it :) Haukur 10:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the new wording seems to be "templates that attack or disparage individuals or groups of people". While I like this wording much better than the old wording, why not bundle it with A6 and make a general "no attacks" criteria? —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 14:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is a very good motion. It's much more straightforward and less bendable to the whim of administrators, and eliminates the most problematic of userboxes. I also think it's much nearer Jimbo's original intentions. Userboxes contentious for other reasons can still be taken to TfD. I think the only thing that's contentious is how we use the word "attack". Consider these cases (I don't know if any of these are real), for instance:

• "This user opposes same-sex marriage."
• "This user is a homophobe." / "This user is a misogynist."

Which if any of these would be considered "attacks"? Sarge Baldy 20:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, there'll always be borderline cases. Those should go through the deliberative process. I'd say TfD would manage to delete your homophobe/misogynist examples despite all the userbox freedom-fighters out there :-) It would probably spare the one about marriage (though I'd personally want it deleted). Haukur 20:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. But the problem is that trigger-happy administrators will act on the wording of the policy rather than its intention, and use speedy in cases that should be borderline. We need to avoid subjectivity as much as possible in how it is written. Sarge Baldy 23:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with speedy-deleting category pages or image pages which say "I think George W. Bush is a wanker" or what have you so I can't see why this shouldn't be a general criterion. People might want to make clear how that would apply to user-pages, though. Haukur 15:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we could trust discretion on that one. In any case, we don't really want to encourage userpages being used to attack anyone, either, do we? That was the main purpose of T1 in the first place - to stop negative political advocacy on Wikipedia userpages. Or it could just contain a stipulation that it does not apply to userpages. Meh. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 18:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, it's hard to say. I'm fine with disallowing attacks in userspace as long as the ban isn't interpreted too widely. For example I think that a userpage saying: "Hi! I'm Bob. I write about gardening and skydiving and I think George W. Bush is a wanker." should not be speedy-deleted. But a userpage containing nothing but an emotional screed + conspiracy theory relating to George W. Bush can be deleted for all I care. Yet, I would still prefer WP:MfD for that kind of stuff. MfD seems to be working okay at the moment so I'm hesitant in introducing a speedy deletion criterion applying to its domain. Haukur 20:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

That's another good point. I think there's a difference between "This user thinks George W. Bush planned 9/11 and should be immediately assassinated." and ones done in a more fluffy fashion. I wouldn't consider your example an attack, but others likely might. The terminology remains a bit iffy. Sarge Baldy 20:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Is "does not assert the notability or significance of the subject" really the most important criteria for speedying? For example, if there were an article that said "L1k5, MR. D00dz is duh meest S1gNiFicunt un4 c00l p5rson EVUR!!!!", it would clearly be speediable, but assuming it was long and detailed enough to not be subject to A1, nothing under the currect CSD would apply to it. 72.224.95.121 02:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean. I speedy stuff like that saying something like "No serious claim to notability." Haukur 09:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Some users just reconstruct divisice user boxes on their own pages. Images used solely for that purposed should be speedy deleted. ROGNNTUDJUU! 14:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Following on from discussion above, under the heading Proposed CSD R4, I am proposing CSD G10 with the draft wording:

• Attack pages: Any page that serves no purpose other than to attack or disparage its subject.

This is being proposed as a general criteria, as:

• It already exists as A6
• It has been proposed as R4 above, and gained consensus in that form
• It should also apply to images as long as conditions apply, for example Superm401 said about: I agree with this, though we should clarify that unflattering (but genuine) photographs do not count. Superm401
• I see no reason why it can't apply to categories. For example a category called "****ing idiots" could be deleted under this.
• I've already seen userpages deleted that have only been created (by another user) to attack the user.
• Finally T1 currently reads "Templates which attack or disparage individuals or groups of people."

There appears to be some support for this proposal, however please add any comments. If you agree with the principle please help word it, to make sure it is clear in scope. Petros471 12:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... Maybe. My problem is with the wording "serves no other purpose" which sounds to me like an invitation to fruitless debates. Take Template:User pacifist3 (now deleted) as an example. It had the sentence "This user thinks pacifists make good target practice." This is something I'd like to be able to speedy-delete as an attack-template. But under the proposed G10 we could have people arguing that this template serves all sorts of purposes aside from humorously suggesting the murder of certain people:

• It discloses the user's bias on a particular issue
• It tries to get a laugh out of people

On the other hand it's fairly clear to me that the present wording of T1 enables the speedy deletion of this. So maybe it's best to have different wordings for different types of pages after all, much as I like the idea of generalizing rules. Haukur 13:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering if the template part of it might cause problems ;-) Actually having an attack criteria in every CSD category isn't a bad idea. As you say it allows specific wording as appropriate, and a relevant examples can be given if needed, without turning G10 into a great big paragraph of options. Still if someone could come up with the 'perfect' wording it would be nice to see it as a general, however removing attacks from Wikipedia is more important! (Incidentally I based the wording on A6 as a starting point for discussion.) Petros471 13:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

What's keeping this from being applied to controversial subjects with little to no redeeming qualities so to speak? --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 15:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversial or potentially controvertial deletions should be put up for xFD (articles, images, redirects etc. for deletion), as is the case with any CSD where it is not totaly obvious that the criteria is met. Articles have already had A6, and as far as I'm aware it hasn't caused problems of this nature. See also the existing guidline at Wikipedia:Attack page. Petros471 16:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Woudln't it be easier to either a) outline what this DOESN'T apply to within the section of the guideline, or b) (and my personal opinion) not have the guideline at all? Why add extra process to it, and why give any extra discretion to speedying stuff that probably shouldn't be speedied? --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 16:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

How about this?

• Attack pages: Any page created primarily to attack an individual or group.

"Primarily" is a little bit subjective, but it allows the deletion of the anti-Pacifist userbox while preventing the deletion of userpages that mention (but do not dwell on) anti-Bush sentiments. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 19:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say "go for it" with the firm understanding that any contested speedy gets immediately undeleted and listed at the appropriate xFD. Rossami (talk) 20:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been bold and gone for it. We'll see what happens. I left A6 and T1 up with a note that they are defunct; they should be taken down in a week or so. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 13:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Your addition got merged into G3, so I changed the text. Ashibaka tock 23:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Err, yes, Ashibaka beat me to the punch in reporting that merge. As attack pages don't serve an encyclopedic purpose, there is no reason we can't consider them "vandalism" and treat them as such. While I ws there, I also squished the "history merge" and "page move" points into "housekeeping". - brenneman^{T}{L} 23:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

This also has the advantage of making someone less likely to delete things that they simply are offended by. It's harder to make the case for "Template Anti-Pope" being vandalism than it is for being "polemic" but will still allow us to get rid jiffy-quick of anything that actually needs to be delted poste-haste. - brenneman^{T}{L} 00:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Does this mean I should leave a "merged" tag where A9 was as well? - brenneman^{T}{L} 00:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Did Jimbo sign off on the summary deprecation of T1? Insult/attack is very not what the original or any draft of it ever said. -Splash^talk 00:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Do ask him, as co-author; but it is my understanding that the original Edict from Jimbo was a reversion, so the exact wording is not revelation. I doubt he'll care as long it gets the job done. Septentrionalis 01:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Wtf? I come home from a long day of wasting your tax dollars* playing mah jong, and the userbox war has essentially ended! Well then. Because, of course, by melding T1 into G10 into G3 it no longer even is talking about userboxes anymore. "Attack page" is sooooo much higher a bar to clear. And userboxes are definitely not vandalism. So now there's effectively no policy against them at all.... wow, didn't expect the conflict to end that way. JDoorjam Talk 01:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

*exempt if you pay tax pounds, tax Canadian dollars, tax Australian dollars, in fact, anything besides U.S. dollars. JDoorjam Talk

The thing is, I'd be happy to speedy the "pedo" userbox as vandalism/bad joke, and anything that was clearly an attack like um, I don't know {{User FagsMustDie}} as vandalism/attack. (Please for the love of grandma let that be a red link when I hit preview.) - brenneman^{T}{L} 02:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

What about {{User:Sam Hocevar/burninhell}}? Just for a real-life example.... JDoorjam Talk 02:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

• Send it to TfD. - brenneman^{T}{L} 04:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

• So, not a speedy, then? In that case, I don't know where you're drawing the line. JDoorjam Talk 04:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Speedy deletion is to serve only purposes: to get rid of things that would almost certainly be gotten rid of more slowly. We delete them in a hurry either to take the load of of the system or because they will do harm in the time that they exist. I think that the "burn in hell" box is foolish and inflammitory and would probably be deleted in the "slow" way, but since it's neither certain to be so nor immediately damaging I wouldn't speedy it, but would suggest it be deleted at TfD. In case it's not clear, I think that speedy deletion cowboys cause way more problems than the things that they are deleting. - brenneman^{T}{L} 06:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

That misses this particular case. It's fairly clear that Jimbo is keen to see the userboxes he had in mind speedily deleted (in the technical rather than hasty sense). In this case, the CSD is to solve a problem rather than describe a practise. The deprecation is considerably out of bounds and should be reversed. -Splash^talk 16:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reinstated T1 to its original form. I neither support or oppose it (I find userboxes massively dull) but I think the move to deprecate and replace with one with largely unrelated meaning was overly bold. This is why, in chaning the CSDs, we usually discuss before we do. They have been carefully established and tend to get easily broken. -Splash^talk 16:52, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted, mostly because there was discussion of the topic. The fact that you were not here for the discussion does not mean that it did not take place, and, frankly, Jimbo's statement fits exactly with both the new wording and the expanded G3. It was not an imposed policy. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 17:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It most certainly was an imposed policy. I was here for the discussion. I simply had nothing to say until people started falling down rabbit holes. -Splash^talk 18:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Although not averse to the change since (as noted above) it won't actually affect how _I_ do speedy deletions, I agree that deprecation of T1 is a big step and should be discussed first. I do, however, support everything else about the proposed changes including my now-reverted merging. There's no reason that this can't be made a "general case" while still having the more specific T1. - brenneman^{T}{L} 22:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the expansion of G3 can go ahead separately from the T1 debate. There seems to be consensus that the attack page criteria should exist, whilst there isn't consensus about what to do with T1. In generaly though it would be nice to see changes discussed here on the talk page more, so we don't have the main page being continually reverted! Petros471 22:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

{{User admins ignoring policy}} This user is pro-cannabis.

OK, people, as requested, I've found my way to the discussion (not as easy as you'd imagine). Thank you for respecting my reversion, a rare courtesy these days. I will expand on my reasoning. First, my edit comment, which I thought complete,

• that's way to much power, "disparaged subject" is way to broad

To expand on this, disparaged subject could mean just about anything. For example, the userbox at right not only could be read as disparaging of admins, it has been read as disparaging of admins, and has been the subject of a speedy-deletion attempt. To take a more hypothetical example, the pro-cannabis template could be read as disparaging of law enforcement, and subject to speedy-deletion. In other words, the subject in question could be very abstract, and so I find the criterion overbroad.

Second point, why expand G3 in the first place? How critical is it to speedily delete that which may disparage and why? In a climate where certain admins have routinely abused CSD, why is it so important to expand it so broadly? Come up with a much tighter criterion for attack, and you will have my support. The point I reverted is way too open to abuse, and I am far more concerned about abuse than a speedy response.

StrangerInParadise 07:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I reworded A7 to clarify that a claim to notability had to be "serious" to be counted as a proper claim to notability, with the invitation to revert. As a result, I'm taking it here. AFAIK, most of the time admins speedy pages without a "serious" claim to notability, or one that has a believable base in current policy. What do you think of clarifying this criterion? Werdna648^T/_C\^@ 05:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hard to clarify; there always have to be judgement calls. My rule of thumb is that if I think anyone might think it contained a claim of notability, I don't delete it. -- SCZenz 06:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is controversial; I and many others already A7 articles whose subject's claim to notability is something like "he also has x-ray vision" stuck onto the end of a student bio. "Credible" might be a better word than "serious", though, as the latter could be taken to mean a strong claim of notability instead of a believable one. —Cryptic (talk) 16:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

How about "plausible"? Still rules out x-ray vision. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I prefer "credible", since Verifiability trumps Notability every time around here. -- nae'blis _(talk) 16:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

No. It already casts a wide enough net. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 16:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind this new addition. This is vanity nonsense vs. possible serious attributes/reputation claims. "He is the best SINGER ever...Soooo HOT!!!" is not good enough. Things like "He is a well-known tuvan throat signer in western Mongolia" may be obscure (and possibly made up), but it still is plausable and there is nothing about it that suggest jest/vanity.Voice-of-All^T|@|ESP 16:34, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a solution in search of a problem. What is the recurring, unavoidable issue that adding this language helps to avoid? As User:Cryptic points out above, A7 is already used to knock out "non-serious" bios without any controversy. If it ain't broke.... JDoorjam Talk 16:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose JD has a point...I have always assumed that to be implied, so perhaps more wording will not add anything usefull. I guess we should just focus on T1 for now.Voice-of-All^T|@|ESP 16:47, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Someone deleted File:Israelsoldier04.jpg. He was cute, and I liked having him on my page. The picture was on the BBC half a year ago, and they said it was released by the World Gay Pride thing in Jerusalem, so it must be free.

And someone deleted , claiming noone was using it on an article, but I was using it on my page. horseboy 17:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Just because an image is released to the media for distribution doesn't make it free. Also, we do not allow people to use fair use images on their userpages. Johnleemk | Talk 17:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

And if an image is fair-use, as opposed to free, and it is used only in the Userspace, as opposed to in an article, then it may be deleted at any time (provided it has been at least 7 days since the upload - to give someone plenty of time to put it in an article). Johntex\^talk 06:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

On a technical note, images are not able to be undeleted unless there is a server crash or some other massive problem, they are not contributions, they are files. — xaosflux ^Talk 05:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved to here

Now that we have Prod, can people go easy on the speedy deletes, please? Speedies should be reserved for straight-out garbarge, mostly. It doesn't take any more effort to send stuff to Prod. I'm still picking up stuff off the speedy delete list that doesn't belong there. I'd say about 20% of the speedies should be Prods or AfD's and half of those are likely keepworthy. And yeah admins are supposed to backstop speedies but it doesn't always happen. So remember: Prod. Herostratus 20:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't know where to ask this: Why the hell is the Nintendo article flagged for Speedy Deletion? AFAIK, it's well-written and has good sources. Seems to me like someone online vandal is playing console wars on Wikipedia... —This unsigned comment was added by 200.40.188.174 (talk • contribs) .

Link please? I couldn't find what you're talking about, but I'm sure no one will delete an article that was obviously flagged in bad faith. NickelShoe (Talk) 21:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

These are typically speedied as common sense anyway, but it may be helpful to specificly outline it here, as they appear on WP:RFD from time to time, but how about "Redirects that were created as a result of obvious page move vandalism"? There aren't too many of them, and they usually get speedied anyway, so this may not be needed, but nonetheless, it may also be useful. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 00:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This is included in CSD G3: "Pure vandalism, including redirects created during cleanup of page move vandalism." —Guanaco 00:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, so it is. I don't know how I missed that. --Blu Aardvark | ^{(talk) | (contribs)} 00:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

A few words quoted from Jimbo which have not gotten enough attention in all this:

*g* Funny isn't it? I keep stumbling across pages ranting against my irrational vendetta and ban of userboxes when basically I'm just saying Everyone please relax a notch or two.--Jimbo Wales 02:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be an understanding that you have given the OK for mass userbox deletion. I think it would be helpful if you could make it fully clear that this is not the case. Everyking 04:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how I could be any more clear about it.--Jimbo Wales 14:53, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe that divisive and inflammatory userboxes should be deleted. I am convinced by the events of the last few months that they should not be speedied. The reform proposal linked to a few sections above makes abundantly clear the amount of judgment involved in the application of T1; other speedy criteria can be verified trivially, and usually all reasonable editors will agree when they have been met.

TfD will also usually get rid of something faster, since speedies will often be listed on WP:UBD; and Undeletion will be seriously discussed and often approved. (Of course TfD's can be nominated for undeletion too; but if there has been visible consensus, the deletion reviewers will ignore it.) Septentrionalis 15:58, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well stated. I too support deleting divisive/inflammatory things (although as I have said before I find value in knowing what the POV of an editor is) but not via CSD. The process itself is too divisive. TfD is fast enough and gets to the right outcome often enough and soon enough. As to Jimbo saying I don't know how I could be any more clear about it., I think he COULD be clearer if he wanted to be... he COULD say "Don't speedy userboxes, put them through process". Some of what he says is a bit oracular sometimes. Of course I suspect that's deliberate, in order to not be dictatorial sometimes you have to be obscure... And you know what? I support that too. ++Lar: t/c 16:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah yeah, no one likes the Scrooge who suggests doing something about April Fool's Jokes. But I think we need to speedy obvious April Fools jokes as vandalism while doing newpage/RC patrol on April 1st. We don't catch all of the hoaxes/jokes that are added in any random day, and they often stick around for months with potentially bad consequences... who knows how many hoaxes will join our million+ articles if we take a "Someone will take care of this tomorrow..." attitude towards April Fools jokes. --W.marsh 00:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The problem last year was so bad that I wanted to recommend that we make a policy to lock out all editing on the first. It seems like fun at the time but it's way too much work to clean up afterward. Rossami (talk) 01:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Either that or a bit of stability?Geni 12:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)