Now that all of my PR flooding is almost gone, I decided to nominate this... I've done some major work, and want to feature it. Any complaints or comments? - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• I know this is bringing up an ongoing dispute (and it's certainly not personal), but I genuinely feel that this isn't a standalone topic, as the character is a cipher that certainly doesn't transcend the source work. This article is largely a plot summary of Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2, with commentary like "His motives for wanting to control Wars World are unknown."
  Other problems:
  • The portraits have no fair use tag, let alone rationale.
  • The Abilities section seems to suffer the worst from the lack of context found in the Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2 section.
  • The Black Hole Army section seems to be completely unrelated to Sturm. Half of it is about a game he doesn't even appear in.
  • The final sections make factual claims of debatable provenence without sourcing them, like that some people believe he and Von Bolt are the same person, or the ROM hacking bit. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 06:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Uh, this isn't the FAC, this is a matter of improving the article. The article is of enough quality to be its own article. Are we to move Goomba to Mario series enemies because he is rarely ever seen outside of games? And even the cartoons and comics apply to that.
    • Lord Sturm started Black Hole, so Black Hole's actions after his death certainly have relevance to him.
    • Context from those articles? Explain.
    • So, what would be adequate for a source? Would the hackers who did this be a good-enough source, or an article relating to the theory? - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:18, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Goomba appears in dozens of games, often outside his original series. Many of the Goombas have personalities. Lord Sturm's actions appear only in two games, will only ever appear in two games, and he is merely a personality-less "true dark leader". There's not much to say about him, and much of this article, even if this stands alone, belongs in other articles.
      • Well, they're currently CSD candidates. I figured it would be courteous to let you know instead of just deleting them.
      • It's fine to lean on other articles, and let, say, Advance Wars: Dual Strike describe the later actions of Black Hole.
      • It's not clear that all COs have these powers, or that his powers are particularly more powerful than the others.
      • Seems like that the former would be fine, although the latter would be ideal assuming it's from somewhere reputable. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 06:25, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I believe you're taking WP:FICT a bit too far; I have spoken with many people on this, and they all feel that WP:FICT has exceptions (such as quality of the writing, length of the article, content and notability). It could be merged, yes, but there's a decent amount of information regarding him that wouldn't apply to plot summaries of the other games.
        • What are currently CSD candidates?
        • Telling people to go to other articles lowers the content and chances of becoming featured. Goomba talks mostly about their various species' appearances in games.
        • Lord Sturm may appear; bigger twists have happened.
        • I'll be sure to specify. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, this bulleting system isn't working. Let's split these to threads.

Does it stand alone? - Such information would be what? And how is Sturm notable independent of Advance Wars? - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

His CO Power, his plots, his appearance. There's already an unspoken consensus to not go indepth on the characters in the main articles. But again, the potential to be an article overrules the fact that they are not notable in other source materials. The plot summaries are from his perspective, and can go indepth on the plotting of Sturm rather than what Andy experiences. Captain Olimar survived a VfD, and he is arguably not notable outside of the source material. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

His CO Power is notable? His appearance is notable? He's a cloaked figure in a mask, which isn't exactly an uncommon design, and his CO power is just another CO power, in a series with more than a dozen COs now. Looking at the close comments for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Captain Olimar: "The result of the debate was no consensus, but a merge may be in order. There is a tie vote between "keep" and "merge and/or redirect". Please settle this question on the article's talk page." I don't think that's a ringing endorsement of this article standing alone. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

And again, if you AfD'd any FF character article, you would be opposed to the tenth degree. WP:FICT generally doesn't apply to game articles. You're focusing too much on WP:FICT, when there's more people who would oppose deleting game character articles. This is just how people want it to play - What about Lakitu? That's not the most notable thing ever, not even one of the most well-known Mario enemies. To sum it up, if an article can do a split from the main article and do it well, then good for it, and this one succeeded. Now drop the debate on this, because I do not plan to merge this with either parent articles. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking other articles, and I'm not advocating deleting this. I'm advocating that this be merged to the source work, as it is tied inextricably to a single pair of linked source works and has little popularity or presence outside of discourse on those works. (This isn't a notability argument; it's a question on whether it's a discrete topic.) Lakitu and Wario have many different roles in different games, and the Final Fantasy characters have a rabid fanbase and cannot practically be merged into the already overlarge FF articles, but this is not about those articles, but this one.

WP:FICT should apply to game articles the same way it applies to any fiction articles, as this article is a prime case of why WP:FICT is the way it is (as this character cannot be discussed except as a small part of a larger whole).

I feel that further replies on my part in this line of conversation would no longer be productive, as they would simply be restatements of the above point. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Images - The portraits of Sturm are CSD candidates, with no info on their copyright status. Adding some basic copyright info would alleviate this. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've already applied the fair use tag to two and game-screenshot to one. A link is provided in regard to the Meteor Strike image. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, given that. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The AW:DS plot summary - You're telling people to go to other articles in cases where the information isn't relevant to this subject. Sturm didn't appear in that game, so there's no need to summarize that game's plot. Goomba doesn't summarize Super Mario Bros. 2. As for future games, he's dead, and Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball (and there aren't any games currently announced that he could appear in), so I think it's safe to say he's not gonna appear again any time in the forseeable future. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:06, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but it is the army he created, and he is mentioned throughout the story. The section is about his army, Black Hole, so logic states that we focus on the actions of Black Hole following his demise. Also, he may not have died. He IS a master of deception, after all. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:14, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like this is a better start for a Black Hole article than a Sturm one, then. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that replacing Sturm with a Blak Hole article would garner a lot of support. I personally plan to make articles based on characters such as Sonja, Andy, Lash, etc. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please not, until the discussion at Talk:King of All Cosmos is resolved? Right now, there's no clear consensus on appropriateness either way. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That would be preferable to you, as all three have far more personality to speak of than Sturm.

Also, there have been people that were in agreement on the matter of if WP:FICT should not be without exception. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking you not to make any more grey-area articles until the King discussion is finished, in the hopes of avoiding a revert war where we're both making claims of the status quo. It's hopeless, and I'm planning to try and expand the discussion elsewhere anyway before this becomes a bunch of little fights over little articles. Ideally, it should be one big fight, so everyone can yell at us both for not going out and getting lives. ;D - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 07:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But life is too cold! My feet have gone numb. ;<

Oh, you know what's cool? Nell was in Super Famicom Wars, under her Japanese name, Caroline. So I'm checking if Sturm was in any past games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be placing my review here. Link, if you could cross off my points if/when you address them, that would make it easier for me to spot any consequential issues I want to raise. Rob Church ^Talk 18:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Let's have the Japanese characters for the name, shall we?
• Minor grammatical correction in the leader, which I'll fix if I get round to it: Needs to be ..though the army he commands, Black Hole, appears..
• Not sure we need the contraction of Commanding Officer explained in the leader; the Commanding Officer article would explain that itself
• Link to video games in the leader
• In the Biography section, we refer to the plot of two games. Could we somehow link to the plot section of the games' articles, or else the articles we have on their plots (if we have them)?
• Consider floating the second and third images a bit, to make the article more interesting to read; a column of images down the right is monotonous and boring
• In the Abilities section, the link to meteor is displayed as Meteor - remove the capitalisation
  • Done. Rob Church ^Talk 19:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• While it is discouraged to make too many of the same links, at the bottom of the page, consider linking to the games' articles upon mentioning the games - the article is long enough to justify this
• This article mentions a lot of important video game concepts; consider wikilinking to appropriate material where possible
• Bottom section - who is Hawke?

Initial review completed. Rob Church ^Talk 18:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]