The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Speedy keep - there's a number of reasons for this:

1. Practice is to list redirects in any namespaces at RFD, not MFD.
2. No-one except the nominator voted for deletion, and there's a snowball consensus to keep
3. Notability isn't really needed for redirects.

   Even so, HP is a known acronym for "Harry Potter" - it's used as much as Hewlett-Packard or the sauce.

Thanks, Sceptre ^(talk) 13:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HP not a notable substitution for Harry Potter, and certainly not an appropriate substitue for the Harry Potter Wikiproject Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 03:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Proposer is simply objecting to its inclusion on HP (disambiguation). -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: With respect, this became necessary after JHunterJ edit-warred this miscellany as reason to add to the HP dab page, when he couldn't find either notable citations nor a consensus on either HP (dab) or Harry Potter. So, removing the redirect removes yet another battlefield for him to cram a non-notable term into the dab. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• See alo the earlier discussion Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2007 August 4#WP:HP → Wikipedia talk:Help Project -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I amsure the user is well aware of the nature of consensus. The Help Project no longer used the HP redirect, and it was assigned to the Harry Potter WikiProject. As there isn't a notable usage of HP as Harry Potter, maybe we should discuss whether its usage within Wikipedia as a navigational shortcut warrants notation in dab (with precedent and citation, of course.) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. HP has three popular and notable meanings in 2008: the computer, the sauce and Harry Potter. Of course, it is a notable substitution. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 03:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm pretty sure this should be at WP:RFD. Anyway, I believe that HP is a perfectly acceptable use for Harry Potter. seresin ( ¡? ) 03:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  Wikipedia namespace would indicate MfD, redirect would indicate RfD. Is there a winner? -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, see this one. I believe redirects of any kind go to RfD. seresin ( ¡? ) 04:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: kinda my first time at this, so RfD might be better for this. The redirect is indeed crufty and not supported by any sort of notability outside a fan forum (which WP is certainly not). - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Oh HP is used for Harry Potter... stop the crusade against HP = Harry Potter Chandlertalk 04:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Unfortunately, Chandler, it isn't notably known as such outside fansites. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. While JHunterj is rather obsessed with adding HP to the dab page, he hasn't been able to show any notable citation that utilizes HP as a substitute for Harry Potter, either in the dab page or the Harry Potter itself. That aside, the popularity of the term does not extend to HP sauce, the computer company and Harry Potter. To begin with, the sauce isn't widely known in the US. While significant discussion has raged in the dab page about how to utilize HP for the computer company, HP has been consistently disallowed as a substitute for Harry Potter. This miscellany, as it isn't a notable connection to Harry Potter (as noted by an utter lack of notable citation), is unnecessary. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: But would the WP:HP have to be removed... as is it something of a "inside" link... I mean WP for Wikipedia or WikiProject is probably used only here... I smell deletion of all those redirects, if someone can't find a reliable source from a newspaper calling Wikipedia WP and not mentioning Wikipedia Chandlertalk 04:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I am not sure I understand your post, Chandler. Could you explain? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand. WP is not notable outside of Wikipedia. Should we delete WP? As for HP, I've googled and it does appear in the Real World. Phrases like 'HP kids' 'HP books' appear in headlines in reference to Harry potter. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've seen that, too, but we all know the perils of Google-bombing. Nothing notably citable has been brought to the table at either relevant article. I guess a question I would ask, then is if an internal shortcut that we have used for a very short tme to connect to the HarryPotter WikiProject is an appropriate dab term. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure ppl havent been google bombing Harry Potter / HP so it could get on the HP disambiguation page... I could just be people actually searching for HP and expecting Harry Potter.. How crazy Chandlertalk 04:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows why fans do anything? It might not have even been for Wikipedia inclusion; it might have been some form of competition between fans - you can find All The Crazy™ anywhere without looking too hard on the internet. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 05:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep, without respect to whether "HP" is common shorthand for "Harry Potter" or whether a reference to "HP"'s being so used belongs at HP (disambiguation). Project shortcuts need not to follow any particularly encyclopedic scheme (a not insignificant number of our project-space shortcuts would fall short of serious encyclopedic inclusion); they exist simply to assist editors in navigating and linking to project-space pages, and they serve cheaply at that. It follows, then, that although "it's harmless" (or "it's useful") is generally disfavored as a rationale underlying a "keep" !vote at AfD, it's a perfectly reasonable justification for our creating or preserving a project-space redirect, and so since there appears here to be some utility (although there aren't many incoming links, such that deletion is unlikely to prove a retrospective problem) and no harm (that the existence of the shortcut might be advanced as having some relevance to decisions that might be taken in mainspace is unfortunate, but that advancement is not, of course, the fault of the fact of the redirect's existence, and that the shortcut exists as part of a Google-bombing feedback loop isn't—and probably couldn't be—well demonstrated), there's no real reason to delete. Joe 08:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that makes perfect sense, Joe. It isn't a dab term at all, it's our own shorthand to get to the wikiproject. Thanks. I'll try to ensure that it isn't added to the HP dab. I'd close this out,but I am unsure how to. If someone else does it, could they let me know how it was done, in case I need to do something similar in the future? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 08:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy Keep It's a redirect to a project mainly used to make typing it quicker on talk pages, at least it should be a Dab page. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 09:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.s. On the main point this seems to be collateral damage from; I thought disambiguation pages were to help people navigate, so why is the inclusion of an aparently commonly used abbreviation such a problem? When it comes to dabs, if it's reasonably related, the burden of proof should be with reasons not to include it. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 09:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep the nominator has an unusual obsession with preventing the use of HP to mean Harry Potter. Difficult to understand what would motivate such focused energy on such a trivial point. HP is an obvious choice of redirect for the potter project. older ≠ wiser 09:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Keep. Bloody silly nomination. Abbrevations are standard for WP project space, eg WP:NFC -> Wikipedia:Non-free content, WP:HGH -> Wikipedia:WikiProject Human Genetic History. So, WP:HP can go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Harry Potter. -- Jheald (talk) 10:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Uh, when did we have to establish notability for project space redirects? How ridiculous. Obviously keep. -- Naerii 11:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Firstly, this should be at RfD. Secondly, the only standard for wikipedia-space shortcuts is utility to the project as a whole. The nominator's reasoning doesn't address this in the slightest. — Gavia immer (talk) 13:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.