Now that I've had a chance to read the comments so far from those who oppose the proposal, I'd like to add this to my own comment. I note the large number of users who state that ArbCom is already sufficient to handle the problem, and that this proposal would add nothing further that would be good. As editors worked on the early stages of this proposal, one idea that was much discussed was that of "bright line" misconduct by administrators, situations where an administrator unambiguously does things that violate policies of administrative conduct. I think there is consensus among both supporters and opponents here that ArbCom is, in fact, becoming very effective at dealing with that. But CDA addresses something else. There are a small number of administrators, certainly a small and unrepresentative minority, who make patterns of doing things that do not quite cross a bright line, but which leave substantial numbers of community members with a bad feeling about how things work at Wikipedia. They may be chronically incivil in ways that don't require AN/I sanctions but which are hurtful to other editors. They may POV push, or be imperious in the ways that they edit. Please don't get me wrong: this is not the same thing as someone who has a bad day and gets hot under the collar and makes a blunt remark once. It's not the same thing as someone who consistently makes difficult calls and does so in a professional way, even though it makes enemies. And I believe strongly that most of the community, far from being a mob, can readily distinguish the former from the latter. Just look at the "oppose" and "neutral" sections of RfAs. It is very common for editors to bring up issues that are not bright-line, and we accept the ability of the community to assess such things at RfA. The community should be able to assess this later, as well. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But how can we have a simple CDA process? The details are everything, surely. To adopt it first and work on it later cannot be right. There are other Admin Recall solutions that can be worked on (including RfA), so it is not really 'CDA or nothing'. Matt Lewis (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Effectively, yes, it is indeed CDA or nothing at this point, since no other proposals have received anywhere near the same degree of traction. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

note this account had been blocked after 9 edits for using an inappropriate username[5] Gnangarra 16:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The community wants this process - let's get it moving." - I would argue by the results of this poll so far, the community most certainly doesn't want this process. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 11:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've do have a couple of points on the SilkTork's above comment because it appears sensible in many respects (I may have said a lot of it myself at one point):

1) Regarding the detail being ironed out later, well ok to a degree - but some of it (like admin and canvassing) needed at least some serious work beforehand. I'd like to see at least a possible solution to the various problems before pushing the CDA. It is worrying that so many weak compromises had to be in the proposal (words like "admin must be editing recently" are just too ambiguous). I've seen a little evidence that things would be easier during (or after) a CDA trial to be honest, and it would be a while before every important facet of CDA is covered by examples of use. Is waiting for admin to be put up for CDA the best way to adapt the CDA? I'm not sure it is. Even labelled 'trial', CDA will likely be too disruptive imo, because of what I have come to believe are intrinsic flaws.

2) Regarding the community 'wanting' CDA - I do very much agree that the community want to see changes regarding admin, but I haven't seen enough evidence that they are particularly crazy about this particular method, despite the expected and understandable support votes. The "Reverse RfA" idea of CDA just didn't take off. CDA doesn't address all the concerns directly, like giving admin 'terms' instead of that "job for life" for example. CDA is a bit of a bandage on a structural problem, in many ways, and a bandage we can't keep clean. I'm not against any form of Admin Recall, I just haven't seen CDA stand up to the various criticisms (or enough attempts to make it stand up to them), and I cannot see CDA better withstand criticism simply for it being trialled. I've seen too much blind faith in CDA coming good, and it's been too protected, quite fiercely so at times. Matt Lewis (talk) 11:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But who are the 'community' who can vote someone in and then can change its mind? 'Community' is a useful general term for a 'broad consensus' here really: so a community "changing its mind" is a situation where a there is a new consensus to remove an admin. While the idea of reverse voting is fine in principle, I good idea alone is just not good enough: the guaranteed negatives of a CDA process (resulting from how the consensus is achieved) far outweigh the possible positives.

I do hope that this RfC pushed Wikipedia into publically looking at some much needed (and often discussed) changes: Set terms for adminship and a review process for existing admin. I think for that, the time has now come. Well, perhaps not immediately, but it can't be too far off now surely. Matt Lewis (talk) 12:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting indeed. As at the time of this posting 52% of the oppose votes come from administrators, with only 27% supporting. Kind of obvious who "the community" is I think. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Too early to tell. I've answered this more in Comments below, where you've mentioned it again. Matt Lewis (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Five Problems with a Single Solution is a good argument that some form of deadminship was needed, and were this only a poll an whether, in-principle to support such an idea, I would supoort it. But this is a poll on a specific, detailed proposal. That proposal does not look like being the solution envisioned by "Five Problems" to me -- indeed one of the points in "Five Problems" was that any "RfDA" process must be appealable to arbcom, which this process is not. Any supporter ought, IMO to consider not just the need for a deadminship process, but the merits and flaws of the specific proposed process. You may have doen so, but your comment, like many above, does not mention those merits and flaws at all. DES ^(talk) 13:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are aware that under current proceses no Bureaucrat ever desysops an admin, although the ArbCom as a group can and do desysop admins for cause? Under the proposed CDA process a Bureaucrat would make the decision as to whether the community discussion did or did not constitute consensus to desysop. DES ^(talk) 22:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, a 'crat weighed in at oppose #44 :) -- Avi (talk) 06:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And I see Dweller at #104. I have said from the start of my involvement with Cda that bureaucrat opposition (voting as a 'crat or not) would kill my support. Since the gap to 50% in this RfC continues to widen, the point is moot. I'm going to refocus on administrator term limits. Jusdafax 19:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, CDA cannot be used just to remove admin who aren't 'cut out for the position'. It is either a misunderstanding of CDA, or a con to say that it is. CDA would be damaging to Wikipedia, as dodgy admin can say "Look the system in fair! Vote me out if think you can!" when with CDA the system would not be fair, and people cannot vote them out. How will that make Wikipedia a better place? It's a step to a more solidly corrupt state. You can try for a CDA, but that in itself will only cause so much drama that all the extremely daft admin involved would prejudice the running of Wikipedia before, during and after the CDA. And if the admin has enough mates, you simply wouldn't win. The Bureaucrats couldn't judge that kind of thing anyway - so CDA simply won't happen. Admin are beyond canvassing (or any mid-range) rules, so CDA couldn't work until admin in general are better quality people, and that needs to ahppen via a different route to CDA. Matt Lewis (talk) 10:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment to above few votes: CDA simply cannot be used as a 'reverse RfA'. And isn't CDA trying to 'paper over the cracks' anyway? Many (if not most) of the 'oppose' arguments say that CDA will damage Wikipedia, and are not arguing that is should not be allowed in principle. Would people consider actually offering a fixed term to admin, rather a "job for life"? And instead of 'patching up' an archaic system with a well-meaning but toxic 'CDA' process, actually address the problems directly? There are proposals like 'Admin Review' processes too, where admin get reviewed. All of those are less destructive to Wikipedia in general than the CDA process. It they don't work, then maybe we should look at a form of 'admin recall' (and there are much better ones than this CDA). Matt Lewis (talk) 10:08, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that people saying it can be "worked on later" are prepared to donate their magic wands! I put hours into trying to make CDA work, and it has flaws we could not resolve, which are simply insurmountable given the desperate state of adminship that we have (admin themselves will wreck CDA). Adminship needs to be changed from the ground up - we need to make it a fixed term, and subject to review. After a number of previous attempts to do so, someone just ran this CDA proposal with clear holes in it, and with various elements that did not meet consensus. A lot of issues were in the end simply denied. The "we can sort it all out later" philosophy, after hitting dead ends, is just foolishness given the seriousness of the process itself, and the stumbling blocks faced. The creation of this proposal failed consensus at various points in its making, and consensus being the glue that holds Wikipedia together, that in itself is a bad sign. Matt Lewis (talk) 11:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds to me like what you are saying is "Fleas on cats are a serious problem. It has been proposed to solve the problem by throwing cats into furnaces. I do NOT support this as the best method around, but that it is A method and the concept is both sound and necessary."--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The signatures could be collected in 10 minutes, but can't be certified for at least one week, so the accused admin will always have at least 1 week to prepare and 1 week for the process itself under this proposal. CRGreathouse (t | c) 16:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing in the proposal to prevent certification immediately after the 10 signatures are gathered. The seven day discussion and polling period would then begin. A safeguard like the one you mentioned was suggested, but was not incorporated into the proposal. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the rare case that an administrator goes "vandal", how does initiating a 7 day community discussion address the need of not "waiting for other administrators"? --Allen3 ^talk 22:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree that the non-admin vs. admin !vote gulf is strikingly wide at the moment. I have added the script link to the top of the page with the other links there. Jusdafax 09:36, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not the best reason to do that surely? People need to read the voting comments without prejudice, so I've deleted the top link (it's at the bottom of the page anyway, and discussed in Talk too). Matt Lewis (talk) 10:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd just like to comment that I agree with Matt about that. This should be a month-long discussion, not a minute-by-minute horse race. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What evidence do you have for your first statement? Is this just speculation on your part? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Per the many good points made above. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

note: indef block after violating arbcom sanctions[6], sock account voted oppose[7] prior to block Gnangarra 17:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Striking the vote, as the sock puppet vote has been struck as well. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mattisse/Archive --Hammersoft (talk) 16:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About applying to other projects, this RfC is only with respect to the EN WP. Other projects would have to decide for themselves. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:18, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's still early in this RfC, but I'm happy to work with those who will work with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is early, apologies for throwing this RfC under the bus so quickly. For those viewing this comment in the future, at the time of my !vote (included) the count was 120 support to 134 oppose. I will be happy if the support increases significantly beyond that and am encouraged that, at a total minimum, impetus toward future implementation of CDA can start here, regardless of the outcome of this RfC. Having a community elected position which does not allow for a future simple community based mandate is counter-intuitive and we should remedy that sooner rather than later. Sswonk (talk) 19:01, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, no apology needed. You said it in the spirit of constructive discussion, rather than the minute-by-minute horse race that I've been cautioning against. (But since you brought it up, I'll point out again that the "motion to close" last month was leading decisively for the first few days, only to be rejected 2:1 as time went on.) Anyway, I stuck my neck out on this, and I'm getting quite used to being under the bus. :-) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem I see with the seeking 'common ground' approach is that I just can't foresee any variation on this process that would satisfactorily resolve the concerns I raise above, or acceptably answer the questions posted in Wikipedia:De-adminship proposal checklist. In order to modify this proposal to have sufficient checks against abuse and make it fair to all participants, we'd have to change it sufficiently drastically that it would no longer be any faster or more open than the existing de-adminship processes and tools. (I refer again to the alternatives that I offer in my rebuttal.)

I will note that the "admin-for-life/run-amok" perception shouldn't in itself be a justification for developing new policy — and especially not bad policy. If we grant (for the sake of argument) that there is a widespread perception of 'lifetime admins run amok', it should trigger a calm, rational, fact-driven examination of the perceived problem. The community needs to figure exactly what the issues are. What problem admins have we dealt with successfully, and how does that differ from the situations where we have failed to do so? How do we define a problem admin, and why types of (mis)conduct warrant desysopping? Have our existing processes failed to respond correctly to problems, or have these processes simply not been used (or not been used correctly)? Can our existing policies and processes be tweaked to resolve these issues, or do we need genuinely new and separate mechanisms to fix the problems? If we find that there are really only a few admins who would be the focus of a new process, does it make sense to establish a whole new regulatory framework with all its overhead and drama?

Unfortunately, there has been a preference to shortcut that rational discussion of problems, expectations, experience, examples, evidence, and desired results. Over and over again, we've jumped past the analysis of the problem directly into attempted solutions. These proposals will continue to fail because they don't know what problem they aim to solve — or even if the problem exists in fact or primarily in perception. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, I'm happy to work on ideas. I can't help observing how the response to Sswonk's suggestion resembles the "health care summit" that just occurred a few days ago in the U.S. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. My experinece with adminstrators has (with a few exceptions) been one of arrogance and inability to consider the observations of those outside their own ranks. Having recourse held over their heads will increase their ability to listen and to think. Brews ohare (talk) 02:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

user banned --Tryptofish (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the community decides on who gets tools, the community should rule on who has the tools.

RE:There's arb comm. Arb comm should never be seen as a substitute for a community process for forseeable events. Wikipedia is a self governed project. the community is paramount. Arb comm / Jimbo are for emergencies where normal procedures fail. Power corrupts. The rule of arb com and Jimbo will be corrupted due excessive reliance on it.

RE:"don't trust the community". Wikipedia is a community self-governed project. If you don't trust the community, Wikipedia is not for you. This is a matter of self-fulfilling professy.

TenOfAllTrades presents some excellent criticism, and it is even constructive. The proposal should be approved, with TenOfAllTrades given decent lattitude to fix problems once demonstrated. But don't get too hung up on theoretical problems.

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You wrote, They clearly wish to remain a caste here, where only the very few can take them to task.

Do you really believe that? Your comment implies that there is no possibility, in your view, that a sysop might oppose this proposal in good faith. Do you really believe that all of the sysops who opposed this proposal did so out of a desire to avoid accountability rather than because they actually believe what they are writing (i.e., that the proposed new process is unnecessary or problematic)?

Yes, I am a sysop and I oppose this proposal (though, see ad hominem circumstantial: a possible or potential "disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false"). I have no intention of trying to change your opinion about this proposal or the arguments made against it, but I would ask you to reconsider your characterization of the people making those arguments. That being said, I genuinely would like to know your true opinion, and will harbor no hurt feelings if your response to my question is "Yes".

Thank you, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 23:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know you weren't asking me, and I'm not trying to speak for R.D.H., but I've been thinking a lot about the same question, and I'd like to offer my own take on it. I've been saying repeatedly during this process that I oppose casting any group of the community as being a monolith and that I appreciate the many administrators who have supported the proposal, so I start from that. But speaking of some and not all of the administrators who opposed, I cannot help noticing the ardency of some of the opposes, an almost nasty tone, and an eagerness to dismiss the concerns of those who support. Again, that's not everyone, and some may really reflect strongly held opinions that the proposal is a bad thing, and there also has been nastiness on both sides of the debate. But I am persuaded that some administrators have responded to the proposal like the "angry mob" that it has been claimed would be on the other side. So, yes, I think there are some administrators who really want to drive a stake through the heart of any proposal that would subject them to review. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt, no doubt. And there are some in the support section who so clearly are pissed at admins that it's almost palpable. And as a regular follower of AN/I, I know what they did to cause admins to take action. If there's an "almost nasty tone" in this, it's present on both sides of this, Tryptofish, and there are people who are determined to get their claws on admins by any means necessary.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See? That's why I said there has been nastiness on both sides. Anyway, I think the numbers of supporters who came here with their "claws" extended are actually much lower than might have been expected, whereas I've been unpleasantly surprised by the number of administrators who seem hostile instead of, well, administrative. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I think that any adequately-large or -heated discussion (regardless of the specific issues or opinions involved) is likely to attract some opinions that are not the result of neutral evaluation of the merits of the proposal. I think that this is an unfortunate reality, and am not really surprised to see it in a discussion involving more than 350 people. What I am curious about is whether phrasing such as is present in R.D.H.'s comment reflects actual beliefs. (I had a similar discussion here, but failed to receive a clear explanation/response.) Still, I do appreciate your thoughts on the matter. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 00:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And you weren't even asking me! Ah, well. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An informative response from the wrong person is better than an uninformative one from the right person. :) -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 00:47, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that attempts to characterize any of the contributors to this as anything is either helpful or appropriate. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One should not, of course, allege bad faith in the absence of clear evidence of it, and I realize that this is a sensitive issue, but I think that one should be able to express unease about the phrasing of others' comments as long as one does not attempt to effect a particular outcome based only on one's interpretation of the motives of a few others (i.e., as long as one does not base arguments or decisions on an unproved assumption of bad faith). The extent to which it is "helpful" to express unease in this manner is another matter, of course. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 01:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I felt your question was legitimate. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) First, a thank you to Fish, for making a case for my remarks. Now Black Falcon (from a fish to a bird..oh my:), since you seem to sincerely desire a frank discussion, I shall indulge you. This project is riddled with injustice, and the admin caste is the source of most of it. Yes, I said Caste, because that is what it has become. For too long it has been too seldom held to account by too few. This has bred arrogance and corruption amongst its ranks. The supposed servants of the community have become its masters. The only way to peaceably and democratically change this is through consensus. But the admin caste is now too deeply entrenched to allow this to happen. They are more politically active and better organized than us mere peons. They can effectively mobilize themselves to block any substantive changes (the inmates run the asylum). Yes, this proposal has flaws. My friend Cla68 acknowledges this quite well in his remarks above. And I think it has as much chance of passing as a winged snow swine in Hades. But something like this is long overdue, if not too late. We should have been having this discussion years ago!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 03:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we have creatures of the air and the sea ... are there any terrestrial critters lurking nearby? :)

Perhaps it will come as no surprise, given what I wrote above, that I disagree with several of your opinions, especially your characterization of the sysop user group as acting with a single mind (all sysops most definitely do not share the same attitudes, opinions, and preferences) and your presentation of an us-versus-them conflict between admin and non-admin editors—both of which are to me, because I studied nationalist and ethnic politics at university, reminiscent of the manner in which nationalist and sectarian leaders portray inter-group relations: there is the same us-versus-them frame of reference, with the 'other' presented almost always as a monolithic and destructive or dangerous entity. I don't mean to suggest that there is any malice in your characterization, but the structure of the argument—ignoring individual variation and instead focusing on broad classifications, and generalizing individual experiences to an entire group—is similar, in my opinion. Regardless, I thank you for providing a detailed and honest response. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 07:37, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course human groups are not monolithic. There are a few good members even in bad groups- Oskar Schindler and Mikhail Gorbachev for instance. Sometimes they can make a small difference and on rare occasions even large ones in changing their groups' behavior for the better. But unless and until they are able to change enough of their fellow members' hearts and minds to significantly change the groups' culture for the better, they remain good soldiers for a bad cause...good cogs in a flawed machine. Over the past year or so, I've seen a slight change in the admin caste's culture here for the better. But I fear it is too little, too late and happening too slowly to make a big difference. If I use the language of us vs them, it is because your caste has engendered that response. Rather than taking me to task on my terms, you should be asking yourself; what has my group done to make him employ such stark words?.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 12:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The caste of non-admins are a group of sniveling snot nose children who don't understand what consensus means, how to build an encyclopedia, nor even understand much of what is written. Offended by my comments? Offended by my (in jest, people, in jest) appraisal of non-administrators (of which I am one, by the way)? My assessment of the case of non-administrators is every bit as valid as your assessment of the "caste" of administrators. Can you cite anything to support your opinion or is it pure speculation based on anecdotal experience? As to "We should have been having this discussion years ago", we have. Many times. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_de-adminship#Proposed_processes. There's a reason this general topic is part of Wikipedia:PEREN#Adminship. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Hammersoft, after reading your words of wit and wisdom above, I now realize how wrong I was. Yes, us Wiki-peons are peons for good reason...we are a bunch of argumentative, know-nothing smegheads! Real change can only come from above, from our betters. More importantly, I now realize that you are the one! The Wiki-Messiah whom it has been prophesiedwould come to bring peace and justice to all Wiki-land! My lord, embrace your destiny! See the change...BE the change! Only you have the knowledge and the power to end the abuse and corruption...or will, once you become an admin. Please,lord, I beg you, allow this humble servant to nominate you post-haste!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 10:14, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks :) You just made my day. Now, back to the dungeon with you! Mwahahaaha! ;) --Hammersoft (talk) 13:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now, that's an idea for recruiting sysops: My lord, embrace your destiny! Your lover awaits! -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 18:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, it's like you're following a "how-to" guide on nationalist mobilization:

If necessary, I will acknowledge the fact of diversity within my enemy's ranks, but immediately sweep it aside by refocusing on the behavior of the enemy as a whole. I will express a willingness to compromise, but make conciliatory behavior on my part contingent on unspecified improvement or positive change in the behavior of my enemy. I will justify divise rhetoric by characterizing it as a response to actions by my enemy. I will explain away any criticism of my divisive behavior by claiming a long history of wrongs committed against my group—I will avoid particular examples so as not to get bogged down in the details, which are rarely ever as black-and-white as I would like them to be—and stating that our patience is exhausted. I will not abandon my preferred terminology; if I use it enough times, the discussion will take place in that context.

I realize that this is likely not a conscious effort on your part, but the underlying structure of argument is virtually identical. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 18:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That was nice of you to say that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would go further and suggest that Admin votes on both sides be totally discounted. The WP:COI is pretty blatant. --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:57, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As is the COI for anyone that has been blocked by an admin or had an article deleted, remember we assume good faith and every editor has the right to express an opinion thats how we build consensus. Gnangarra 16:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

COI does not impy bad faith. If you think it does, you haven't understood cognitive dissonance; remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've said this before, but I feel it useful to repeat it now. I consider the poll part of this page to be governed by WP:POLL, and I think that any argument based on excluding any class of the community from having their !votes counted the same as anyone else's is without merit. It's useful to understand how different members of the community have !voted differently, and that information is valid to consider in interpreting consensus, but arguing that this person or that should be discounted is going to be a waste of time. Just above, some editors raised the issue of discounting administrator !votes, and so another editor went through the page and noted !votes by editors who apparently contributed in violation of sanctions. (An AN/I thread has already occurred over one !vote having been stricken.) We could have an unpleasant and unproductive drama over hanging chads, or we can recognize that this RfC is heading towards showing that there is not sufficient consensus to implement the proposal in its present form, and that there is likewise not sufficient consensus that the status quo is acceptable to the community. My point is that I'd like to see ideas from all areas of the community considered fairly here. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not that black and white, which is why Arbcoms recuse themselves from voting when they have a COI; don't see why same shouldn't apply to admins. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you assuming that there is a COI? Do you suggest that a sysop who has absolutely no reason to expect that he or she will ever be subject to a CDA, much less a successful one—and, unless CDA is blatantly abused, I think that applies to most sysops—somehow has a conflict of interest regarding this proposal? If you are, then should you not also claim a COI on the part of any editor who has ever had a disagreement with a sysop or who would like to de-sysop a particular admin?

I would like to repeat my call that we focus on the merits of the positions and proposals that have been presented in this RfC rather than trying to undermine or discount individual votes (or groups of votes) through ad hominem arguments. Thank you, -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 23:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you assuming that there is a COI? Wow! Only an admin could ask a question so dumb. And I'm not kidding - does any non-admin have a problem with this concept's applicability here? --Michael C. Price ^talk 00:45, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Only an admin could ask a question so dumb. - I tremble before that logic and bow my head in shame. Shall I flog myself now, sensei?

Adminship implies membership in a different user access level, not in a different species. If I resigned the sysop bit tomorrow, would I suddenly become a real boy? -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 02:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not an issue of logic, it's an issue of clouded judgement, induced by a COI. --Michael C. Price ^talk 11:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Extending Michael's idea, perhaps we should discount any voters who've been blocked before who are not administrators. Obvious COI. Let's see, starting with the supports that gets rid of Abd, DuncanHill, Crossmr, IronDuke, Beyond My Ken, Gigs, Yellow Evan, Sole Soul, Malleus_Fatuorum, Dabomb87...Wow, what a trend I've discovered! Oh, and let's not forget we'll need to discount your vote too, Michael. Dotting i's and crossing t's, --Hammersoft (talk) 14:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And why do you explicitly exclude admins from such a measure?  :-) --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't. You did. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Um, reread your first sentence: .. who are not administrators --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"I would go further and suggest that Admin votes on both sides be totally discounted." Your words. Not mine. I can't very well discount votes that have already been discounted by you. It therefore follows to only look at non-administrators for who has been blocked. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors who have been blocked before, such as yourself, should have their votes discounted too. Blatant conflict of interest. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Victims of crime are not banned as jurors, only criminals.--Michael C. Price ^talk 18:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So administrators are all criminals? Is that it? So you don't think a person who has been blocked might have a significantly greater chance of having an axe to grind than a person who hasn't? Why is it that people who have been blocked show a 50% greater chance of voting in support of this proposal? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So administrators are all criminals? No, it's an analogy. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To continue a really bad analogy, though, victims of crime can't serve as jurors at the trials in which they were a victim. On that basis, it is utterly reasonable that those who have a reason to have a grudge against the admin corps should be disallowed if admins themselves are. In the real world, however, the votes of neither should be disallowed. Otherwise we don't have a community consensus, because like it or not, admins are part of the community. Black Kite 19:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm an admin and my support is currently #146 in this section. Would you discount it? – Athaenara ✉ 22:57, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note that ideally you want to have the opinion of every Wikipedian. Any editor can have some COI we don't know about, but if we ask the entire community where they want to go, that is no longer relevant (the COI's are a relevant part of the community too). The problem is not the COI in itself, rather that in a poll like this a particular minority COI is overrepresented. That then can distort the outcome of this poll relative to the ideal poll where you would have asked everyone's opinion. Count Iblis (talk) 00:25, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to have it on the record that I don't believe your !vote/comment should be immediately "discounted". Instead I feel administrator comments (both "support" and "oppose") should be categorised separately to non-administrators. A debate about this is happening on the talk page. Unsurprisingly, there is tremendous resistance to the idea from—administrators.  HWV258.  02:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Correction: I was quick to resist your idea, and you criticized me for doing so, but I am not an administrator. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many of those who have opposed the proposal have asked for a better explanation of what "bright-line" was referring to, and why ArbCom may not be as well suited to deal with it. I think Andrew has articulated it in a very clear way here. Thanks for that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kidding me, right? Yes, we have older teenagers who are admins. The community knew of their age when they !voted them in. One or two have screwed up, like User:Cremepuff and been shown the door. As for self confessed drug users, anyone who can't keep drugs and alcohol off their editing won't be made an admin or won't stay one. And any proposal here will not deal with the off the reservation admin, but will take at least a week to consummate. We do have procedures for emergency desysoping of an admin who goes off the rails. It has happened, and has been dealt with, and all this is public information. Your !vote comments reveal a stunning lack of knowledge in the area in which you comment.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good lord. I feel so... flamed.

I find your naive faith in our current "system" curiously touching, so I shall not respond in kind.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 23:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Um, who was it you had in mind? Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, it's not helpful to ask for names. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'Not helpful' for whom? And why would you cite NPA in your response, Tryptofish? Why would it be a personal attack to identify the administrators whose misconduct demonstrates the need and necessity for this process, but not an attack to actually subject them to it after this proposal is enacted? I grant that details, specifics, and examples might make certain people uncomfortable, but discomfort is no reason to hide from open discussion of how this proposal would be applied. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A reasonable way to do it would be this: discuss the matter without naming names. In my understanding, it would be a personal attack to say on this page that so-and-so is a bad administrator, whereas presenting evidence for it as part of a process designed for the purpose would not be. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I have found the broad use of generalizations, hypothetical situations, and discussions about things which everyone just 'knows' to be less than helpful. For several months, I and others have asked for evidence-supported descriptions of specific, real problems which would be remedied by these proposals. Tryptofish, I realize that you have no intention of providing such specifics, but perhaps there are proponents of this proposal (or variants thereon) who might be more open about how they would use it. If I saw some sort of convincing evidence, you might be more likely to bring me (and editors like me) on side. Of course, you might also find that the cases brought forward could be dealt with successfully through normal channels — or that the cases aren't nearly as cut and dried as the involved parties might like to think (and thus unsuited to resolution through this sort of trimmed-down process). Would you be willing to abandon the development of this process (or its offspring) if you found that it wouldn't be of any practical use? Or would you want to push ahead if its only practical application was as a threat? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think if you click through to the link in my post immediately above, you will find answers to a lot of those questions. As for me (among others) not doing a good enough job of making the case here, guilty as charged. Do I want to create something whose only practical application is as a threat? No, of course not. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:46, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your link – which I have read through more than once, and did so before I responded – refers to your own personal experience, but does not describe (explicitly) a case where you believe a desysopping is required. Moreover, your statement is devoid of diffs, or detailed descriptions of specific, real cases where the CDA process would be (or would have been) applicable and useful. I fully recognize that it is your privilege not to fulfill my requests for information, but your link does not provide answers to 'a lot of those questions' and shouldn't be represented as so doing. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)And this really is the rub for me because in all the discussions I have seen about admin abuse, no-one has ever articulated who it actually is who needs to lose their bit. Until that time, I'm afraid that this continues to look for a solution in search of a problem. And the NPA edit summary confuses me. I sincerly hope that I'm not being accused of making a personal attack. Spartaz ^Humbug! 20:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me be very clear about this: I did not mean to imply that Spartaz had made a personal attack. What I was trying to say was that a reply to Spartaz's question would risk being a personal attack. I hope that is now clear. Now the broader question is one where I suspect those of us on both sides continue to feel very frustrated with the other. Please understand that some of us sincerely believe that it would, indeed, be a personal attack to come to this or to a related page and say "so-and-so" should be de-sysopped, as opposed to pursuing an existing or a proposed method of dispute resolution. Naming names, providing diffs that reveal names, and the like, would be personal attacks if stated in the course of a discussion that was not part of an actual process of dispute resolution. Now, as has been stated by me and by others many times already, that reality creates a catch-22 for supporters of this proposal or any proposal like it. We can either name names and be, rightly, criticized for doing so, or we can refrain from naming names and have the proposal criticized as it has been here. Please consider: in the discussion to which I linked, have there never been any administrators whose conduct resembles that description? Have there never been any whose conduct of that nature would undermine their ability to serve the project as administrators? Are there none who, as of today, remain administrators in the face of existing policies? To those who sincerely and in good faith answer that they are unaware of any administrators fitting these descriptions, please consider whether you think that all of the slightly-less-than-half of users who have responded to this page as supporting the proposal are either wrong or acting in bad faith. It appears that a sizable portion of the community, including quite a few administrators, has concerns about this issue, and not all of us are complaining about something that does not exist. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Previously noted by me. The existence of a perception of a problem by some editors is not the same as the existence of the problem. The lack of naming names or considering specific cases leaves us with the present situation — Alice thinks Bob is a bad admin; Carol thinks Dave is a bad admin; Eric thinks Frank is a bad admin; but no one has actually looked at whether or not Bob, Dave, and Frank are really problematic or just subject to individual dislikes. This will continue to be a problem in the development of any CDA-type process that avoids looking at specific current or historical cases. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(I wonder whether the editor whose !vote started this thread realized what it was going to lead into!) I think a lot of this comes from the fact, as discussed recently on the talk page here, that different users have had different experiences. What seems obvious to me, from my experiences, may seem unreal to someone whose experiences have been different, but it doesn't mean that either I or the other user are wrong. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The asymmetry in this discussion is quite staggering. Administrators routinely make judgements about who they consider to be "bad" editors, and issue blocks in accordance with those perceptions. Yet regular editors are not allowed to make similar judgements about "bad" administrators. I could give you lots of names TenOfAllTrades, but here's one for starters: Beeblebrox. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:41, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reminded of the saying "with friends like this, who needs enemies". Malleus, I want to distance myself from what you just said by a distance wider than the internet. Personally, I have had consistently excellent interactions with Beeblebrox, and I consider him to be an excellent administrator. And in fact, he wrote one of the variant proposals that led to CDA, and I personally fought to have some language from his proposal included in the version of CDA being discussed here. Sigh. Of course, what is going to happen now will be that some of the opponents of CDA will point to what Malleus said, and say, see, this shows how CDA could be misused. And honestly, I would have to concede that they would be right (although Malleus by himself would not be ten nominators, much less 65% of the !vote, nor 50 users !voting to remove). On the other hand, I will point out that the more reasonable proponents of CDA have consistently urged that no one name names. In a better world, that would mean no distracting personal attacks. Here, sadly, it just means that it makes me look like I have been trying to hide the kind of thing that just happened here. A promise: anything by way of a revised proposal that will come in the future will only have my support if it includes consequences for those who make invalid accusations. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are just about as wrong as wrong can be Tryptofish, but you believe whatever makes you happy. It doesn't matter what anyone says, blatant self-interest will always ensure that no propsal like this one will ever be allowed to pass by the administrator corps. You are wasting your time and you are deceiving yourself. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:43, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And you know this because of what evidence? Jehochman ^Talk 14:22, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That has to be the most ill thought out reply I've ever seen, and no, I'm not passionately involved in this debate at all. I was simply struck by the sheer mind-numbing obliviousness of those words. You could read the thousand-page archives of WP:AN and the related noticeboards for one, if you seek evidence that not all admins are unquestionably beloved. There are thousands of valid arguments for and against this proposal. Your comment is not one of them. —what a crazy random happenstance 02:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'Unquestionably beloved' surely isn't the threshold for adminship, is it? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sound of me suppressing the desire to answer that question humorously. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, his comment makes a hell of a lot of sense. There have been many people in this RfC claiming this or that fact without providing any evidence of it. To ask on what basis one has claimed "obviously many" is certainly a valid question to ask. The simple fact that archives exist of WP:AN is not evidence. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: TenOfAllTrades (an administrator) has just asked ArbCom for an MYOB restriction on GoRight (and a permanent ban on Abd, another supporter), after his having "been repeatedly blocked recently for his own counterproductive approach to Wikipedia editing". This measure would enable revenge (all GoRight would need to do is WP:HOUND TenOfAllTrades to gather a handful of "victims") and curtail administrators (even those who always follow policy to the letter) if it passed. Which it won't. -- samj _in^out 09:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course if one is an administrator for life, then the current system is humming along nicely. But this view is not held by everyone, as many of us see significant problems. Egregious cases of admin abuse are in fact quite rare, but administrators frequently make poor choices, that may include favoritism or a lack of impartiality. Because poor decisions that are not egregious are tolerated by other administrators, certain administrators continue to make these poor decisions, and some start believing that their behavior is acceptable. It is because of these poor decisions that some editors hold personal grudges and vendettas against certain administrators. If an administrator is competent, fair and impartial then I see no reason why reasonable editors will hold a grudge against him or her. Because administrators are not accountable to the community, many administrators are too quick to pull the trigger when a problem arises, and fail to consider other ways to resolve problems that don't leave a bitter taste in anyone's mouth. By implementing the CDA, I believe admins will be more thoughtful about the decisions they make. As for Arbcom, the process works well for egregious violations, but Arbcom is somewhat mysterious, distant and isolated from the wider community. Consequently admin abuse may persist for a long time before it gets to Arbcom level. Wapondaponda (talk) 15:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you could point to some of the instances in which you attempted dispute resolution against an admin who made such poor decisions, but the current system failed to act in the way you desire. A good example would be an RFC where the community clearly indicated that an admin had made repeated errors, but where a later ArbCom case did not result in desysopping. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As previously mentioned, it is usually egregious or persistent breaches that tend to gain attention, enough for an RFC to be created. Other activities that involve poor decision making are simply forgotten, by most except maybe the aggreived parties who then hold grudges. I do not have a major problem with decisions made by Arbcom, however most grievances never get to arbcom. Wapondaponda (talk) 18:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An RFC requires a mere two users to be confirmed; an incident so forgotten that it didn't meet the two-user hurdle does not sound to me like one demanding removal of the bit. If these grievances aren't getting to ArbCom, it's not because of a flaw in the system, it's because of the unwillingness of the offended parties to work through the dispute resolution process. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I worry that chasing decent-but-awkward admin will even be the 'norm' with CDA nominations, as most of the 'canny' admin could easily escape CDA anyway. Decent admin are easier to catch because they don't wriggle so much. CDA is not the only possible version of Admin Recall though, and RfA (the actual 'Request For Adminship' process) can still be improved, regardless of any form of Admin Recall that might be around. Basically, CDA is an unwashable bandage on a structural complaint. We need to get to the root of the problem: the quality of the RfA process (esp in the past, where it was much easier to become an admin), and the actual wisdom in actually awarding someone we don't really know such a veritable booty in the first place, eg such powerful and varied block tools, and a "job for life" over a sensible fixed term. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not true that supporters all think details are to be done later. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm not trying to say that all supporters were in favor of working out the details later, at least two currently are. I'm merely stating that I disagree with them (not trying to put words in anyone's mouth). -- Bfigura ^(talk) 23:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be clear that the details can change, through normal processes of consensus for change. The long build-up to this proposal might give some the idea that it is now "finalized". No policy or process on Wikipedia is ever finalized. Gigs (talk) 01:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand. But if we implement a flawed CDA policy (like this one), the flaws won't get fixed until after they've been used to axe an admin or two. I don't see a reason to risk the damage, since I haven't seen any persuasive arguments as to why CDA is needed in the first place. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 04:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On thinking about this further, I'd like to make an observation. The procedure for closing this RfC requires that, if (and I said if) the proposal is supported, it must still undergo review by Bureaucrats and Jimbo before any implementation would be possible. I would suggest that revisions to the proposal that acquire consensus during this poll would need to be incorporated at that step. Now, please don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that editors should !vote for anything on faith or that they cannot logically oppose it on this basis. But I am pointing this out for any editors who might be interested, or who may wish to advocate for such changes. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:22, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I want to be clar, i suport the idea of CDA in principle, i have long though that some sort of community-driven process for removal of admin tools was needed. But I can't support thsi proposal, particularly not on a promise "oh we'll fix the details later". And the problem was worse when the ArbCom would only desysop for the most egriguious misuse of the tools. DES ^(talk) 00:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, the relative inertia of the committee in cases of desysoping is a good thing; and there is nothing that would prevent the committee to simply "rubber stamp" by motion the result of any process that was fairly run and where concerns were properly heard. — Coren ^(talk) 23:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A community de-sysopping process should exist. And this proposal has clearly had a lot of work put into it. (Those editors who are its proponents have my thanks for their efforts in tackling what has long been an elephant in the room.) But a CDA process must incorporate a requirement to have the advice and consent of the arbitration committee in relation to every desysopping, as otherwise we will suffer quite grievously from the problems that Ryan Postlethwaite and Coren envisage. And we need to set the bar much, much higher, to reduce the incidence of trigger-happy desysoppings. A good start, but adjustments are needed. AGK 00:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• If you "mean well for those who deliberated upon the topic", perhaps you can explain why a Wikipedia admin sees fit to place a bogus 'Om box', clearly designed to cast discredit on this RfC, at the top of the page in its opening hours? I'm sure many besides myself will find your answer of interest. There is also a specific section regarding this issue, above. Jusdafax 06:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Having read other comments and opinions, I want to add that what I think could work is an "admin suspension" policy as a compromise, with ArbCom having the final say on either re-instating or revoking admin rights permanently. Pre-requisites for initiating this action would be clear evidence that admin tools have been abused on a number of occassions and could in fact be a quicker route to "suspending" abusive admins than this proposal suggests but I still oppose this process as it is too easy to be abused by blocs of editors with a grudge and will keep admins away from dealing the controversial subjects. → AA ^(talk) — 09:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it be possible to achieve exactly the same thing by modifying the "appeal" section of this proposal to add an automatic, required, appeal to ArbCom? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That may be so (or may not be) but what we are discussing is the proposal as presented and as such it does not have this or other sufficient safeguards. If this is to become policy, it needs to be sufficiently workable in the form presented without a need to re-engineer the policy substantially. Having taken another look at it, it strikes me as flawed since nowhere does it provide the criteria upon which the CDA process should be initiated and why ArbCom is not capable of dealing with it. This, I think, is a fundamental requirement that needs to be stated. → AA ^(talk) — 20:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moved relevant threaded discussion to talkpage — Coren ^(talk) 00:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now at #Observations re Casliber's comment, above. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, as someone who's helped develop this proposal on and off, that's not the conclusion I'll be coming to. The response is pretty evenly split, and most of the opposition seems to be based on either (a) the case for why CDA+ArbCom is better than ArbCom on its own hasn't been adequately made and (b) the details are either too sketchy or particular items are objectionable. In my mind that means we need to draft a better proposal and come back again in a few months' time. AndrewRT(Talk) 23:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About that new kind of troll: Please note that it is actually quite easy to pull up the user-contributions of such a person and see this kind of single-purpose account pattern, and the proposal as written specifically instructs the closing Bureaucrat to discount !votes from such SPAs. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose There are perfectly good means of desysopping a problematic admin. This proposed process feels too vulnerable and easily abused to be an improvement on the current system. ALI ^nomnom 15:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Switching to support. I believe all the issues I've had have been fixed, and while I don't like the general idea of desysopping good admins, I figure that's no reason to oppose this policy for serious circumstances. ALI ^{nom nom} 13:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well said. And funny, too. David in DC (talk) 04:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually, rather childish, much like the "ombox" stunt. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:25, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose lol, I like Recognizance's succinct statement. Unnecessary, will almost certainly lead to abuse. Dougweller (talk) 19:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC) This user voted twice; merging this comment with later, more extensive vote. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm certainly capable of missing things, but I did attempt to respond specifically and accurately. Some of the criticisms really are nonsense, in that they factually misrepresent what has happened or what the proposal actually says. About having a compromise short of de-sysoping, the proposal allows editors who favor an outcome short of de-sysoping to !vote against the CDA (since they do not support the idea of removing administrative rights), and comment exactly on what they would advocate instead. (In fact, I pushed for adding that to the proposal.) And if a Crat makes a wrong decision (something I honestly find unlikely), it will be very public, much as a badly closed RfA would be, except even more conspicuous. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How do you figure that beaurocratic failure is unlikely? These CDAs are going to be a huge mess of drama (albeit warranted) so it will be much harder to find consensus than with an RfA... and good luck proving them wrong even if it's transparent. Also, !votes aren't a sufficient answer to the problem of polarized-by-design Support and Oppose camps; minority opinions will seldom gain enough consensus for a beaurocratic response. --Explodicle (T/C) 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, cases where admisn are generally ulpleasent or bitey to many people, make poor decisiosn with some consistancy, etc, but where no one instance is glaring or way out of line, are not well handled by the current system. DES ^(talk) 00:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really make sense, as administrators are elected at RfA. Or are you also against that? --MalleusFatuorum 23:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My reference to "elected judges" wasn't in reference to RfA (which I have no problem with), just this proposal. Like how judges who face reelection sometimes make politically-popular yet legally-questionable rulings, administrators if this system passes will be tempted to avoid making difficult policy calls in order not to make enemies that could bring them before this process. For example, an administrator might be more reluctant to protect a page or make appropriate blocks in the middle of an edit war between two nationalistic factions, fearing that one or both of the factions will drag him into CDA. I don't think that's desirable. –Grondemar 05:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your position makes no sense. You're apparently uncomfortable with judges being elected, but completely oblivious to the fact that administrators are also elected. Live in your own world, I prefer mine. --Malleus Fatuorum 05:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a difference between judges elected once, but never needing to face re-election, and those who are subject to periodic re-election and/or popular recall. The latter might well temper justice with political calculation more than the former. That is, i think, Grondemar's point. DES ^(talk) 00:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If user:example dares to edit another article about either diesel OR steam trains, outright banning from the 'pedia would be appropriate, and assassination would not be beyond consideration! Edison (talk) 04:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given my own recent experiences, I totally hear you about those lulz, but I'd like to clarify a few of the other things you said. The proposal does allow users who oppose de-sysoping to comment that they prefer, instead, an admonition or topic ban, etc., but I think it would put a difficult and unanticipated task before the Bureaucrats, if they have to decide amongst various possible resolutions (and who carries it out, if they don't?). About the canvassing points you raise, the ten people are only permitted to canvass enough to amass that first ten, whereas the administrator is essentially unlimited. And, although discussion here suggests that a section ought to be created on the CDA poll page for the administrator's defense, there is already an "oppose" section where extended comments are encouraged, and so it is untrue that the defense gets sent off to the talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't spotted the bit about only permitted to canvass until they achieve the first ten, and agree that sounds a little more balanced than I thought. However it leaves us with a proposal that I consider nigh on unworkable. Stopping a canvas operation at a set point is a recipe for Dwamah and disputes as to whether it was done to excess, and allowing the admin whose judgement is in question to break the normal rules of canvassing is bound to end in tears. I appreciate that the admin can respond in the oppose section, but still think they need their own response section. As for the difficulty of achieving alternative resolutions in CDA, remember Arbcom already can do this - and what would be the point of this system if it didn't aspire to be as good as the current system? ϢereSpielChequers 18:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It works fine until you get on the wrong side of an administrator. See how "fine" it works after that. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also worry about attempts to game CDA. -- Flyguy649 ^talk

I need to point out a flaw in the first part of your analysis. Open to recall is a voluntary system for administrators to join. By and large, those who do elect to join are excellent administrators, whereas problem administrators essentially never join. How many administrators de-sysoped by ArbCom were members of open to recall? The extrapolation is not valid. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support :-) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About some of things you said about the process leading to this proposal, please read the FAQ linked to at the top of this page, which briefly recounts, and links to, what was actually a very extensive and open process leading to this proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My experience with that very extensive and "open" process was being told that this page is for developing the proposal and that my opposition to the idea was not welcome, and that there would be time for that at the RFC. Not exactly a consensus driven proposal, more like something developed off to the side without regard to criticism now presented as a finished work for the community to examine. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chillum, at this point I can no longer remember the specific exchange to which you refer, nor can I do anything about what any other editor might have said to you. But I can say that quite a few of the users who oppose here came to that discussion and said things to the effect of this proposal is never going to be any good, so shut down any work on it now, and were told that they would be welcome to make constructive criticisms on how to improve it, but that it would be unhelpful simply to say that it was bad without suggesting improvements. Now, that said, I can see as this RfC goes along that there were probably cases, for example where it may have been pointed out that there should be a dedicated place on the "example" page for the administrator's response, where suggestions were made in passing during confrontational negative comments, and may have been quite literally overlooked in the heat of the discussion. I, for one, am still receptive to such suggestions now. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I appreciate that. I followed the discussion (at a distance) since the start of December and participated once or twice. I would like to clarify that I think that a great deal of work has been put into the proposal by those involved and that I appreciate their efforts, good will, intelligence and determination. Whatever my opinion about the final proposal, I think all of those involved in crafting the proposal and bringing it to the community deserve a very hearty round of applause and so I would like to offer to you all this barnstar. -- RA (talk) 00:35, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You excel yourself Ranpahiati. Teamwork! It was 80-90% bickering over proposal pushing v consensus building, as you couldn't fail to notice. This RfC eventually happened suddenly, partly because of the threat of a 'counter RfC' from one single editor. There was a number of outstanding concerns, and with only a small consensus on the chosen content between a couple of editors left in the room. As someone who is highly suspicious of barnstars at the best of times, is there a way of rufusing this one? Matt Lewis (talk) 11:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additional thought - my concern with this proposal is not so much that a decent admin will get de-syoped. This seems unlikely. It is that it will provide another tool to harass a good admin by POV pushers and other assorted troublemakers. Even if the admin survives, it will be a stressful and unpleasant experience (like RFA), and it will consume time that could be used for something more constructive, like, I don't know, building an encyclopaedia. The barriers for entry are quite low in this process. The process suggested needs serious tweaking to improve protection for good faith admins from the wiki equivalent of frivolous lawsuits. Making barriers to entry harder for well known trouble makers (EDIT, actually re-reading proposal suggests that obvious trouble makers will be barred. I still worry that unobvious ones won't) and some kind of double jeopardy to prevent repeated harassment might be a start. Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Guide to Community de-adminship#Before nomination, the last paragraph, with respect to double jeopardy. You and I are discussing this at greater length at my user talk, but I'll point out that other editors have said here, correctly, that administrators get harassed like that every day anyway, but CDA can bring that sort of thing to a place where there is a procedure to deal with it, releasing the steam built up from valid complaints, and putting to rest the complaints that are not valid. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How can the arbiters be considered impartial when they are themselves administrators? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you assume they won't be impartial just becase they have the same slightly expanded set of tools? Admins aren't the Borg, acting as one like a horde of army ants. Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am assuming nothing, simply pointing out the obvious fact that adminstrators judging the behaviour of other administrators is not exactly a model designed to win friends and influence people. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:10, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By arbiters, I mean ArbCom. They're the most trustworthy group here to evaluate evidence in making a decision to deysop, unlike the general community, where users are more prone to demand deysops based on personal conflicts. Spellcast (talk) 02:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but until I see non-administrators on ArbCom I will ignore it as mere propaganda. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear that you don't understand the meaning of the term "cognitive dissonance", but you have reminded me of an article I've been meaning to invest some time in, so thanks for that. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your larger point, but I want to correct what you said about "immediately after an on wiki conflict". The proposal as written would not allow a successful CDA immediately after a conflict between users and an administrator. There must have been evidence of going through the prior steps of dispute resolution, or the attempted nomination cannot be certified. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I mean immidiately after in the sense that the process will be based on a specific insidence and will be driven by parties who are partisans. That there is a slight delay since the witch hunters will need to go trough the motions to show that they have tried dispute resolution helps, but does not eliminate the underlying problem. Taemyr (talk) 00:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

David, I'd like to correct one thing you said about inflexibility. The proposal as written actually does provide for outcomes short of de-sysoping. Users who favor milder sanctions can !vote against the CDA (which is logical if they oppose full de-sysoping), and comment on what they would like to see happen instead. If that ends up being the consensus, then the CDA will have provided a clear rationale for pursuing that. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:20, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How does ArbCom ensure "some separation of powers"? It is made up exclusively of administrators. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Simple: an RFC is how the community makes a preliminary assesses whether there is a case to be heard, and if the community thinks that there is, then the evidence in the case is brought to a separate small group for a decision. This is what happens with courts: anyone can bring a case, but judges make the decision .. except that these judges are elected.
Arbitrators do not have to be admins, and some have not been; however the community repeatedly elects admins to arbcom. If you think that this is A Bad Thing™, then blame the community for repeatedly doing this Bad Thing™ ... but that rather undermines empower-the-community-because-arbcom-is-too-pro-admin argument, doesn't it? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:00, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What I find so strange about that line of argument is that administrators only choose to trust this mythical "community" when it suits them, i.e., at RfA. After that it's who gives a monkeys about what the proles think, they can't be trusted. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're still missing something. If (as you claim) admins get elected and then go power-mad, why do members of this same wicked grab-the-mop-then-machine-gun-the-crowd cabal keep on getting elected to arbcom by this downtrodden community? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:49, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of us is certainly missing something, that's quite evident. Are you claiming that administrators aren't elected? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, of course I'm not. I thought that maybe you had a serious point to make, but if you just want to play games, I'll leave you to it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave playing games to you, you do it so well. Tell me, who was the last non-administrator of ArbCom? --Malleus Fatuorum 04:26, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a specious reasoning at best, and sophistry at worst. Of course our most trusted group(arbcom) is going to be selected out of the larger group of trusted people(admins). If someone does not have enough community trust to be an admin they will not get into arbcom, this is just basic logic. What exactly does your point intend to prove? Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 21:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fall at the first hurdle, which is your assertion that administrators are "the largest group of trusted people". I wouldn't trust many of them even if I actually knew who they were and could see their hands at all times. If you, for instance, believe that you're one of wikipedia's "most trusted", then I would invite you to test your thesis by standing at RfA once again. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but you have trust issues. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How come you're allowed to make personal remarks? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal is clearly not intended to deal with "emergency situations", but with ongoing low-level abuse. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You bring up an interesting scenario. In fact, I would argue that having the nominations in public, rather than anonymously, actually provides a safeguard against bad nominations. A lot of the criticisms of this proposal have not really come to terms with this fact, making it sound like it would be too easy for ten malicious users to gang up on an administrator. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I don't think anyone should face losing their admin bit based on accusations and not be able to face the accuser. The idea of adding anonymity to the mix just turns an angry mob into an angry mob wearing hoods. Chillum ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 21:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that people would still be blamed for it. But this idea avoids having the executioners being executed, as has happened historically. --Sbluen (talk) 09:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear: I think requiring nominators to be identified is a good thing. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even though we disagree (see discussion higher on this page), I thank you for the kind words. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:49, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose ArbCom does a good job in the extreme cases where deadminship is actually needed, and I feel like this process just exposes admins to pointless wikilawyering from troublesome users.QuattroBajeena (talk) 04:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)Confirmed sockpuppet of User:Mattisse. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mattisse/Archive. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:43, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an unlikely venue for a new user's 12th edit. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See the "Intentions" section above. The person who posted this RfC feels we shouldn't be discounting people's opinions here based on edit count. Or, do you want to have suffrage requirements for this vote? If so, what would you have those be? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you not agree that this is an unlikely venue for an editor with only 11 edits, and that (s)he seems strangely familiar with the work of ArbCom? Has QuattroBajeena voted before under a different username? --Malleus Fatuorum 16:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I ask again; where would you like to draw the line in the sand? What suffrage requirements would you like to impose on this vote? There are currently 23 voters in the vote who failed to have one or both of 500 edits or 90 days of service at time of voting. Is that the line in the sand you'd like to draw? By the way, this particular editor's 12 edits is not the lowest edit count of people who have voted here. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You seem determined to miss the point. I have made no comment about suffrage and have no opinion on a minumum number of edits. I am simply suspicious of a new editor who displays such a deep understanding of the workings of Arbcom and such a strong opinion on this proposal after only 11 edits and a few days of editing. You may be more trusting than I am, of course. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You see determined to insult me. How pleasant. How about I say you seem determined to fail to understand the question I am asking? You are apparently saying this editor should probably be ignored in their vote, but can't decide what the criteria should be for ignoring any other votes. Or, do you want to just ignore this vote and not worry about 4 other editors with less than 100 edits, or the 22 others that fail the suffrage requirements for nominating a CDA? --Hammersoft (talk) 17:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am astonished at your accusation that I have insulted you, when you have quite clearly mounted your hobby horse and are riding away into the distance on it. I have already told you that I have no opinion on the suffrage issue, and it is only you that has the bee in their bonnet about ignoring votes; I have said no such thing. If you choose to reply again, please have the kindness to respond to what I actually said, not what you think I've said. To state it bluntly, I am suspicious that user QuattroBajeena is not what he or she appears to be, and may be a sock of someone who has already voted. I couldn't care less about the other 22 you allude to, and nor do I have any suffrage requirement, as you persistently and mistakenly keep trying to claim that I do. Argue about suffrage with someone who actually has a view on it, not with me who couldn't care less. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You had me up until comments about me riding a hobby horse, and I stopped there. If you can't understand the basic concepts of WP:NPA, we have nothing further to discuss. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The outcome of this RFC is hardly going to turn on a single possible sock vote (which was clearly Malleus' concern). How did this turn into a bad-tempered discussion about suffrage? In any case, whether someone has enough info for an WP:SPI or not, this discussion would be better left here. Rd232 ^talk 18:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I found this via the link at the top of Tryptofish's talk page, which I found via goons.--QuattroBajeena (talk) 05:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Well, that's interesting, at least to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. note: indef block after violating arbcom sanctions[8], sock account Gnangarra 17:15, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably the most common complaint with the proposal: that "hard-core POV or spam merchants" will gang up on the admin that shuts them down. I've never been deeply involved in blocking discussions or serious admin involvement in spam/pov situations, but I can't imagine that these nasty pov/spam people actually stick around at Wikipedia. Who comprises this nebulous group of "hard-core POV or spam merchants"? Are there any real examples of such? ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 05:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BEANS -- I've seen disputes from editors who hold both side of extreme opinions on Scientology, Pseudo Science, Isreal, and theres many more incidents like the Mohammed cartoon, Kashmir, Balkans.... these people have been here for years ARBCOM has dealt with many issues and given many sanctions. Gnangarra 05:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What part of the process do you consider to be the "tar and feather"ing? ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 17:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even the fairest administrator will invariably garner enemies who felt they were in the right despite being in the wrong and people tend to hold grudges. De-adminship should be based on repeated failures to appropriately enforce policy (which is easily tested) rather than a popularity contest. If problematic editors can call for the heads of admins then admins will have a strong disincentive to act where they are most needed. Tarring and feathering, like this proposal, is about mob vengeance. -- samj _in^out 18:38, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very fair oppose. We !elect admins to do a dirty job, not to be popular. There's a conflict between the two.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That leaves me scratching my head. I realize that there has been emotion and hyperbole on both sides of the discussion here, of course, but phrases like tarring and feathering and mob vengeance have the effect of demonizing and trivializing a large part of the community who support the proposal out of genuine concerns about how Wikipedia could be improved. As much as I understand how some opponents of the proposal have concerns about ill-considered attacks against good administrators, I'm disappointed that the phrase "very fair" would come to anyone's mind to describe these comments. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Phrases like tarring and feathering and mob vengeance have the effect of demonizing and trivializing people who employ those tactics, and nothing more. There absolutely are some editors on Wikipedia who love nothing more than putting others in a pillory, but nobody said it applies to everyone who supports this measure. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 18:49, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very good distinction, but then it leads to the question of why so many users who are not part of the mob, and indeed quite a few administrators, have supported the proposal. I suspect that this is exactly the point on which those who disagree are failing, mutually, to understand one another. Would it not make sense to improve the proposal so as to protect good administrators from the mob, while still keeping them accountable to the non-mob portion of the community? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That pre-supposes that you can identify who the mobs are. Unlikely at that first step. Two, it pre-supposes you can develop a system to counteract the mob effect. Unlikely as well; any system put in place to reduce the mob effect will be gamed. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Difficulty in objectively identifying bad-faith users at the first step, and risk of system gaming (by either side): Are these both serious issues? Yes, they are, I agree. Are they intrinsically insoluble, such that it is, a priori, impossible to devise thoughtful ways to deal with them? Difficult, yes, requiring thoughtful discussion before implementing, yes, but impossible, I think not. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that how the system works today? That is, protect[ing] good administrators from the mob, while still keeping them accountable to the non-mob portion of the community? -- samj _in^out 13:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well there are certainly admins being desysopped on a regular basis. I wonder how many of the supporters of this proposal are bearing grudges and intend to use it in retaliation? Here's but one example of a supporter looking off-wiki for dirt on an administrator who rightly blocked them, noting that "he's got a long history, and I assume anyone will have some gaffes in that time". That's pretty much my point - admins with a long and/or active histories will build up collections of editors bearing pitchforks, even where the administrators' actions are found to be without fault (as in this case). If you believe you have been wronged then you are far more likely to retaliate than you are to support an admin who came to your aid, so the proposed witchhunts will be skewed in favour of the accuser. -- samj _in^out 15:29, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As this poll limps towards its conclusion, I wish participants would step back from demonizing those with whom they disagree. You have shown evidence of one user, out of something like 160 supporters, and are implying that many more are painted by the same brush. Would it do any good to speculate how many opponents are administrators who are nervous because they know they have done something that could be considered wrong? And what evidence is there that good-faith members of the community will just stand idly by while a good administrator is being wronged? On the evidence of this poll, there is no shortage of users (admins and non-admins alike) who will rally to oppose an accusation (or a proposal!) that they feel is wrong. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that popularity contests are skewed towards the bad faith members of the community - you know what they say about customer service: if you have a good experience you'll be lucky to tell 1 person, but if you have a bad experience you'll tell 10. The same applies here - those who mean well will be drowned out by the grudge bearers and active administrators will either have to exercise extreme caution with problematic editors or risk being unceremoniously evicted by the mobs. -- samj _in^out 07:04, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A desysopping process would be more likely to have as its subject administrators who had lost the trust of the community in their fitness for office than administrators who were incompetent. As you say, those who can't do their job usually don't get elected. AGK 01:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

About term limits, that's something that appeals to me too. However, I don't see how one could apply that retroactively to administrators already sitting. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If it were up to me, the current (active) admins would start their term when this rule would go in effect. Any inactive admin, say one that hasn't done anything for 6 months to a year or more would have to reapply if they're still interested. However, this could mean a deluge of RFA's when all these terms are up so perhaps those who have been admins for less than a year will get the full term and those that have been longer than a year get a half term. MrMurph101 (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In a term limit set up, I would suggest using each admin's "anniversary" of their "ascension" as the cut off date. Those who have served the 2 or 3 (or whatever) years would lose their mop on their next anniversary. Then thy could decide whether or not to reapply. This would stagger the administrative changes throughout the year. WBardwin (talk) 06:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, and well said. This simple method may be the next focus of those editors concerned with the current 'admin for life' status quo. If the many-month process of this current version of Cda proved anything, it seems to me the central lesson is the simpler, the better. Jusdafax 18:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have, I hope, reviewed the math at WP:PEREN#Reconfirm_administrators and considered what doubling or tripling the number of candidates at RfA might do to the process? For example, I think we could reasonably expect that doubling the number of candidates would halve the time and effort that the community can put into reviewing any one of them -- unless increasing bureaucratic overhead (at the expense of writing the encyclopedia) is an acceptable, if unintentional, consequence in your mind. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:39, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at your link was of interest. I happen to strongly disagree with the premise and wording of that statement, and feel that should be reviewed. This is not the right place for a lengthy discussion, however, and as I suggest below, you may wish to comment further at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Administrator on 'WikiProject Administrator/Term Limits: a proposal'. I should add that the section is just getting started. Jusdafax 06:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By way of shamelessly lobbying you, open to recall works very well for good, responsible administrators who choose to use it, but, as something that is completely voluntary, is of no effect at all for administrators who choose not to use it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting idea: that the ten nominators would not !vote. Hmm. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would also add that I envisage that the admin him or herself wouldn't be permitted to !vote either (he or she would put their defense and let the community decide). The 10:1 ratio appears fair to me because it essentially removes any "lynch mob" influence from the !voting equation and, in most cases, would leave the decision up to the community independent of the individuals involved. As an admin, I would be happy for my tools to be reviewed under this scenario, because if I take out the 10 people that have a serious axe to grind yet still have a significant proportion of the community think I'm are unfit for the job, then I'm probably unfit for the job. Rockpocket 20:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]