The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Maybe not rehash, but perhaps you could summarize the best argument(s) here? I don't understand what the problem is, and this is the place to have those reasons articulated. -Pete (talk) 20:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Is it normal around here to have a discussion without asking the category creator (me) why it was created, or even notifying me of the discussion? This seems like a strange way to make a decision. -Pete (talk) 20:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Pete, as the category creator, you should have been notified on your user talk page per WP:CFD#HOWTO. The nominator did, however, properly put the CfD template on each category page, and you apparently found your way here from one of those notices. Please accept the apologies of WP:CBB and WP:BASKETBALL for not notifying you directly on your talk page. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, and sorry if I was a bit cranky about it. I saw my name was brought up in the initial discussion, which struck me as odd in the absence of a notification. But in the long run, these are small concerns. Appreciate the response. -Pete (talk) 00:22, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In the absence of another proposal, I would say keep, simply on the basis that a category that currently has 230 entries, and previously had many more, is simply too full to be of much use to most readers. For each article, the existence of this article makes it possible for it to be in only one category (e.g., "BB players from Portland") instead of two (e.g., "BB players from Oregon" and "SP from Portland".) This keeps things cleaner in the category list at the bottom of the article, and makes the categories easier to browse. Jrcla2's comment above is on target: to undo the work I did, each of these should be added to two categories it used to belong to, not just one. -Pete (talk) 20:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as having "too many entries" in a category to be useful. What's not useful is having to skip around from category to category just to find similarly-related people. Your Portland-specific categories will snowball into myriad needless over-categorizations. Who cares if these athletes fall into two tangentially-related categories: Sonja Henning is a basketball player from the state of Oregon, and she is a sportsperson from Portland specifically. It's not an issue. What is an issue is when a casual reader has to delve through piles of subcategories just to reach a small portion of people whose only commonality is that they are [specific sport player] from [very, overly-specific city]. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I remain unconvinced by your assertions, but I also recognize that this whole topic suffers from a lack of a clear design objective for category structure, throughout our projects. I'm not sure that either of our positions boils down to anything more compelling than WP:IDONTLIKEIT combined with some unsubstantiated theories about how readers do, could, or should use categories. -Pete (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerge all to both parents, i.e. "Players of [Sport] from Oregon" and "Sportspeople from Portland, Oregon". For a variety of good reasons, we don't categorise by the sport+city intersection, rather sport+space/province, with sportspeople being spun off into a "Sportspeople from..." subcategory of "People from Footown, Barstate" when necessary. There are some cases where detailed categorisation is necessary and/or desirable, but in this case it only makes it more difficult for the user of the category. - The BushrangerOne ping only00:51, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose deletion and upmerge. I disagree with Jrcla2 while acknowledging that this user is citing an established precedent. I also acknowledge that other users cite this same precedent. A counter precedent is Category:People from New York City by occupation, which anyone can see is a popular category for sorting people by occupation+city. Portland increasingly is an international city with an identity distinct from Oregon, just as NYC is different from NY state. Also, there are enough entries in these Portland categories to separate them. Jrcla2 is correct that there are problems in browsing all entries of multiple categories, but I feel that the problems of having many entries in a supercategory which could be split are even greater. This is not an easy issue and so far as I know, there is no solid guideline for this. While it is ambiguous, I vote to keep the subcategories by city. Blue Rasberry (talk)13:55, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... although, there may be distinct categories for general sportspeople by location and particular sportspeople by location, and I am not sure which one should be subcategorized if either, or what the precedent is. Blue Rasberry (talk)13:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
-Blueraspberry, the real problem with this is when it starts breaking down sports players by non-major cities. Portland is a stretch to begin with, but I can at least acknowledge it's a nationally-known city. If these subcategories exist for major cities, there is no reasonable justification for why they shouldn't exist for super-small towns like "Farmcountry, Arkansas" as well. How many basketball players from Farmcountry, Arkansas can ever be placed in that category? One...maybe two? The state level is the lowest level sports players should be categorized. However, 'sportspeople from [city]' is a different story, and I support their existence. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Upmerge to "Sportspeople from Portland, Oregon" and "[Specific Sport] players from Oregon." When a new element to a category structure is created, it usually does set a precedent. Users see "Baseball players from Portland, Oregon" and figure it's logical to create "Baseball players from Hackensack, New Jersey" or whatever (can you really blame them). This ends up becoming hundreds of categories that I would argue are of limited usefulness to readers (not to say "no usefulness" - just limited). As a basketball editor, these create a bigger problem. Basketball is a global sport and many editors from around the world create and edit basketball articles. I think the parent category "American basketball players" is already overapplied as non-US editors aren't aware of the state sub category system and I fear that now we'll start seeing three levels of categories applied (and misapplied). I kind of think 50 sub categories of "American basketball players" is enough. I think baseball and American football don't have this same issue to the extent basketball does. Rikster2 (talk) 13:02, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Organisations based in Turkey
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:merge. They can't both stay, and there's no consensus in the discussion. I picked the one that matched almost all of the subcategories, which use the Z. I'll Speedily nominate the two subcategories that don't match.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reverse Merge -- This is an ENGVAR issue - the British prefer "s"; the Americans "z". Since Turkey is (partly) a European country, evidcne would need to be provided that the "z" is the preferred spelling in Turkey. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:50, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
merge as per nomination. Most subcategories use 'z'; most of the articles of the category and subcategories use 'z'. Being a European county does not determine the type of English used. Hmains (talk) 04:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reverse Merge per Peterkingiron. This is indeed a WP:ENGVAR issue. British English is more widely-used in Yurp than Merkin-English. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs)
Merge Turkey is not part of Europe, and with one of the leading educational institutions in Istanbul being the American-founded Robert College it is probable that American English is the dominant form in Turkey. There are other historcal factors that indicate strong American influences in Turkey.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Song recordings by producer
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:rename all. As for the redirects within the categories, sorry, the bot that does the work does not distinguish between articles and redirects; I don't follow the rationale anyway, but if the contents are wrongly categorised, the cats will have to be pruned by hand. – FayenaticLondon19:30, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and precedent. Having established a difference between song and production, it would be nice if all the redirect articles in these categories were not brought forward with the renaming. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:42, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Ships of Ceylon
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale: Similar to the navy categories for this country nominated before, this is a case where "the country name changed, everything else remained the same". We don't have seperate categories for Burma and Myanmar, and this is another case where the changes that led to the change of name weren't a sufficient enough shift to require seperate categorisation, vs. following the normal standard of categorising on the most recent name. The BushrangerOne ping only02:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose merger, but no objection to move, leaving redirect in place. Rationale: Ships categorized under Ceylon are of a period before independence and name change. Having them listed under a country that never existed when they were in service is absurd. Mjroots (talk) 07:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mjroots comments - having a ship that was sailing under ceylonese flag incorporated into a sri lanka category begs questions... sats07:51, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In 1948, Ceylon was granted self-rule as a Dominion of the British Empire as Ceylon; in 1972, the Commonwealth was repudiated and a People's Republic was declared named Sri Lanka. Geographically, it's exactly the same; politically is the question - it should be noted, however, that South Africa did much the same thing (tho without the "People's" bit) in 1961, but it is all categorised in one category before and after (albiet they also didn't change their name). As I mentioned above, I can see both sides of this argument; IMHO it should be at the current name for all post-1948 uses (of course), but I won't shed any tears if the decision is to categorise seperately either here and/or at the Royal Ceylon Navy vs Sri Lanka Navy discussion. - The BushrangerOne ping only00:59, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A possible workround is to name the category "Merchant ships of Ceylon and Sri Lanka". Similar could be considered for Burma / Myanmar.
That was what I had in mind. However, having looked more closely at the article, I see no evidence that this ship went to Ceylon before 1958, so I withdraw that suggestion as not relevant. – FayenaticLondon20:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Merge all to Category:Ships of Sri Lanka. This whole discussion concernes the categorisation of a single article on a ship that belonged to Ceylon in 1957-72. On the principle of our practice on alumni categories (where alumni of a predecessor are deemed to be alumni of a successor or renamed college), ships of Ceylon (Dominion 1948-72) should be treated as those of the present Sri Lanka. The headnote for the target will need to be altered to emplain this. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:American craftsman style
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename to match the name used in the children categories. This name would make it clear what the category covers. While the main article is at American Craftsman, that is a somewhat ambiguous name. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Bungalow/Craftsman architecture
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Merge. No need for this category which by definition will only have one subcategory. Upmerge to all three parents. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Bungalow architecture in the United States
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename to match the main article, California bungalow. Note that there will be a follow up to rename the subcategories if this receives consensus. However, if this is renamed, the NRHP category would require a new nomination if someone wants to rename it since it is apparently a NRHP type. So the question there would be do we want to retain the NRHP specific naming. But that is for a followup discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The NRHP category was nominated here. Note that one of the early comments was to split with one target being a general bungalow category like is being discussed below. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
probably not, but... The whole division of bungalows in the US by regional styles is to my mind really iffy. The best I see is that most authorities agree that there is a specific California style of American bungalow, but some seem to think there's a distinctive Chicago variety too. At any rate, not all bungalows are California bungalows, it would appear. At any rate I don't think we can just collapse all of this. Mangoe (talk) 13:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As you hint, the driving force behind this is probably NRHP nominations, since for most notable buildings that's going to be the source for classification. I'm going to drop a note to them for more input. But I would assume that "bungalow" in this case is not a shortening of "California bungalow", but that the latter is (as the main article on bungalow types asserts) a subspecies of the former until we have a good authority to the contrary. Mangoe (talk) 21:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep current category. Bungalow architecture exists all over the United States, and not nearly all of them are "California bungalows" or other named types. The Bungalow style is widely recognized, but these subtypes are not; Wikipedians should not have to hire an architectural historian for advice in order to categorize an article. --Orlady (talk) 02:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Those presumably are National Register-listed properties. "Bungalow/Craftsman" appears to be one of the standard terms used in the database from which National Register stub articles are generated. That doesn't mean that this a universally recognized term for an architectural style. Indeed other sources don't join those two words at the hip: This explanation of "bungalow" uses the term "Craftsman-influenced" for some specific bungalow designs, but does not combine the terms otherwise; this explanation of the word describes the style as an evocation of the Arts & Crafts movement and the "Craftsman movement", but emphasizes the diversity of "bungalow" styles and never joins the words "Bungalow" and "Craftsman" together; this article about mail-order houses discusses "bungalows" but never mentions the word "Craftsman"; the Britannica entry for "bungalow" doesn't mention "Craftsman"; an online magazine(?) about American bungalows describes the style generically and presents a guide to over a dozen different styles and sub-styles of American bungalows (including "Craftsman" and "California", among others). The devotion of some participants in the NRHP Wikiproject notwithstanding, the sun doesn't rise and set by the direction of the National Register of Historic Places, and Wikipedia should not treat its database as a bible. --Orlady (talk) 17:35, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've commented at the March 21 discussion. As far as renaming the category to "California Bungalow" style, I'd oppose it, because there are bungalows outside of California that don't really reflect that style. There are plenty of bungalows in Chicago, for example, as well as in Milwaukee and Michigan, according to that article. --Elkman(Elkspeak)00:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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Comment: Is it normal around here to have a discussion without asking the category creator (me) why it was created, or even notifying me of the discussion? This seems like a strange way to make a decision. -Pete (talk) 20:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
