Langbahn Team – Weltmeisterschaft

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 October 14

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October 14

Category:Germanophobia

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Germanophobia to Category:Anti-German sentiment
Nominator's rationale: Per main article, Anti-German sentiment--rather than Germanophobia. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Aside from the technical alignment of category and article names, this looks like a category that needs care as it has potential as an attack category. See for example the inclusion of Daniel Goldhagen, but also various other articles which do not align to either -phobia or anti-sentiment. AllyD (talk) 07:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, I could find no evidence, even in the criticism section of Daniel Goldhagen that such a category is warranted so I removed it per WP:BLP and possibly WP:LIBEL. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Melodifestivalen composers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 01:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Melodifestivalen composers ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Nominator's rationale: Performer by performance. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 20:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listify and delete while this is a composers' category, not a performers' categpry, it is too like a performance by performer cateory for my liking. The "melody festival" of the name appears to be the Swedish competion for its nomination for the Eurovision song contest. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:XBLA Compilations

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:XBLA Compilations to Category:Xbox 360 Live Arcade compilations
Nominator's rationale: Rename. This is a process nomination; an editor attempted to rename the category by adding a {{category redirect}} to the top, but the target category was deleted during the cooldown period. I will ask that editor to explain his/her reasons. R'n'B (call me Russ) 10:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians open to whale squishing

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 22:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Wikipedians open to whale squishing ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Nominator's rationale - Delete - Unencyclopedic. Essentially identical to the already-suspect Category:Wikipedians open to trout slapping (which as far as I'm concerned should be deleted as well, but that's for another discussion). Regardless of your opinion of the trout category, this category brings nothing to the encyclopedia that the trout one doesn't. Per WP:USERCAT, "The purpose of user categories is to aid in facilitating coordination and collaboration between users for the improvement and development of the encyclopedia.VegaDark (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. We should be far more open to userspace categories to entice greater interest and learning of the category system. In this way odd user-categories serve a purpose. The do no harm. There are no performance concerns. Userspace is not required to be encyclopedic. Extending the complexity and relationships of categories in userspace is a step in encouraging coordination and collaboration between users for the improvement and development of the category system. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comment. I don't oppose the deletion of most of the things found at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/User/Archive/Topical index. Using categories to supposedly organise and associate and navigate according to some specific non-project quality, like the CfDs I see below, is not very stimulating as it does not encourage structure. They just lead to a multitude of low population single level categories. This one is an exception, as it is a clear subcategory or another popular category. It may not be very creative, but we need some few such trees. The two to four test categories we have been allowed are woefully ineffective at demonstrating what categories can do. Sure, mainspace categories demonstrate a lot, but the problem is that not many editors involve themselves with categories at all. This category is a partial remedy to that problem. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You've thrown a lot out there and I can't really follow your rationale to keep. Let me go through your comments one by one. We should be far more open to userspace categories to entice greater interest and learning of the category system. - Fine with me as long as the categories improve the encyclopedia. As above per WP:USERCAT, user categories are meant to aid in collaboration between users for the improvement of the encyclopedia. I don't see that here. They do no harm - The existence of user categories that don't benefit the encyclopedia fosters a culture that such categories are acceptable, and this I would argue does do harm. Additionally, they provide for more categories for a user looking to use categories for collaboration to have to wade through, which may hinder their goal. Userspace is not required to be encyclopedic - Yes, but this is category space. Unfortunately, there's no user category namespace, and even if there were, the community has clearly placed limits on what categories are acceptable for Wikipedia, as outlined in the topical index you link to above. Extending the complexity and relationships of categories in userspace is a step in encouraging coordination and collaboration between users for the improvement and development of the category system. - Perhaps so, but we could do that with categories that clearly benefit the encyclopedia if so. You could use that argument to try and defend the deletion of any category, no matter how unencyclopedic. This one is an exception, as it is a clear subcategory or another popular category. It may not be very creative, but we need some few such trees - I'm not sure what you are saying here. Because it is a subcategory of a popular category, we should keep it so users can see how category trees work? As I mentioned above, we can do so with clearly beneficial categories if this is the case. We shouldn't keep unencyclopedic categories around if they happen to be subcategories, merely so users can see how a category tree works. The two to four test categories we have been allowed are woefully ineffective at demonstrating what categories can do - I'm not sure why you would feel that way. Every conceivable thing one can do with a category can be done with 2 test categories as far as I can remember. It seems like you are arguing that this should be kept as some sort of test category, which I would disagree with as we already have several test categories that you mentioned that are clearly labeled as such. Keeping this as a test category would make no sense. the problem is that not many editors involve themselves with categories at all. This category is a partial remedy to that problem. - Once again I fail to see your argument here. Last I checked there were only 3 users in this category, so this isn't exactly a category that is breaking down the barriers for someone interested in categories to experiment with. I don't really see how this category existing is making users more interested in categorization. VegaDark (talk) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I may copy and reformat the above to make it easier to follow...(my words in italics)
  • You've [SmokeyJoe] thrown a lot out there and I can't really follow your rationale to keep. Let me [VegaDark] go through your comments one by one.
We should be far more open to userspace categories to entice greater interest and learning of the category system. –
Fine with me as long as the categories improve the encyclopedia. As above per WP:USERCAT, user categories are meant to aid in collaboration between users for the improvement of the encyclopedia. I don't see that here.
My thought is that more user categorisation, even if not wholely serious, will allow more users to lean about categorisation, and that this is a good thing.


They do no harm –
The existence of user categories that don't benefit the encyclopedia fosters a culture that such categories are acceptable, and this I would argue does do harm. Additionally, they provide for more categories for a user looking to use categories for collaboration to have to wade through, which may hinder their goal.
There are not now, unlike a few years ago, so many user categories that you easily navigate them. In this case, the category merely subdivides further an existing wikipedia user subcategory.


Userspace is not required to be encyclopedic –
Yes, but this is category space. Unfortunately, there's no user category namespace, and even if there were, the community has clearly placed limits on what categories are acceptable for Wikipedia, as outlined in the topical index you link to above.
I submit that categories that are for use in userspace, and are never to be used in mainspace, or even the main talkspace, are for all purposes, user categories.
I disagree that the community has placed a clear limit here. A few years back, a huge number of unexpandable, non-interacting, non-project-relating user-categories were deleted. I think you have misinterpreted the communities position and have gone a little too far in deleting userspace categories.


Extending the complexity and relationships of categories in userspace is a step in encouraging coordination and collaboration between users for the improvement and development of the category system. –
Perhaps so, but we could do that with categories that clearly benefit the encyclopedia if so. You could use that argument to try and defend the deletion of any category, no matter how unencyclopedic.
We could, but a novice experimenting with existing categories would do harm, and cause upset. As I said, I don’t want to defend just *any* user category. It has to be related to the project.


This one is an exception, as it is a clear subcategory or another popular category. It may not be very creative, but we need some few such trees –
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Because it is a subcategory of a popular category, we should keep it so users can see how category trees work? As I mentioned above, we can do so with clearly beneficial categories if this is the case. We shouldn't keep unencyclopedic categories around if they happen to be subcategories, merely so users can see how a category tree works.
Yes,but also because users can fiddle with it without altering the mainspace product. We should keep some unimportant user category trees so users can see, play and experiment with them. They have to be interesting enough categories that many users will watch, but not so important that people will be grouched at for fiddling.


The two to four test categories we have been allowed are woefully ineffective at demonstrating what categories can do –
I'm not sure why you would feel that way. Every conceivable thing one can do with a category can be done with 2 test categories as far as I can remember. It seems like you are arguing that this should be kept as some sort of test category, which I would disagree with as we already have several test categories that you mentioned that are clearly labeled as such. Keeping this as a test category would make no sense.
Yes, this should be kept as some sort of test category for users to play with.
You can't reproduce this with two test categories.


the problem is that not many editors involve themselves with categories at all. This category is a partial remedy to that problem. –
Once again I fail to see your argument here. Last I checked there were only 3 users in this category, so this isn't exactly a category that is breaking down the barriers for someone interested in categories to experiment with. I don't really see how this category existing is making users more interested in categorization. VegaDark (talk) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, there are only 2 or 3. But those 2 or 3 are more than zero. There would be more of there wasn’t a message pervading the community that only an elite are allowed to work with categories. It seems to me that you are trying to suppress user category experimentation. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:38, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]



  • I would consider your notice to the category members (not the creator) improper canvassing. Clearly, members of a category are going to be more inclined to support keeping a category. In the past this has been deemed inappropriate, and would hope the closing administrator takes this into account when closing or relisting. VegaDark (talk) 21:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't agree it was improper. I don't think there is ever anything improper in advising people who have shown previously an interest. I thought the reason we didn't usually advise the membership was because it too often resulted in people complaining of spamming. It is not about gaining numbers. You and I and all admins know debates are not decided by numbers. In fact, a plethora of simple bad arguments speaks against "their side". Mostly, I invited them because I was too much guessing whay they created/used the category. You chased me further up the limb, and at this point some statements from the horses mouths might be useful. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I bet you would be hard pressed to find an admin willing to close this discussion as is as delete, even if they 100% agreed with my arguments and 100% wasn't persuaded by any keep rationales. Thus, numbers do make a difference, even if we like to pretend that they don't. I hope an admin willing to do so does close this, however, as there hasn't been a single policy-driven argument to keep this category, or any fluid link to how this supposedly helps the encyclopedia. Basically all I've seen is WP:ITSFUNNY, WP:HARMLESS, and WP:ILIKEIT arguments to keep. VegaDark (talk) 00:49, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • If a couple of other regulars were to weigh in with "delete", I would expect it to be deleted, but no, this debate at this stage has not reached a consensus. Your nomination and replies have not yet induced anyone to agree (I expected them too, but I expect the initial comments and replies have bamboozled. also, many some regulars like to hang back to read outsiders comments first). Neither has anyone agreed with me. You and I are still working to understand each other. I am still digesting you initial reply. I don't think this should be kept for being funny. Humour in project space is a misnomer, in my opinion. In project space, humour, like parody, satire and ridicule, where non-personal, is valuable for learning and educational purposes. ILIKIT *is* nice, though it is necessary to know why someone likes it. Note that the learning experiences can feel "likable". HARMLESS is a decent counter argument where there is no good reason to delete. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per the fact that it's a humorous category and isn't harming anyone. Vega, we have three users because I just created it a few months ago. The trout template has been around for years and is pretty well known in the community. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • No consensus exists that humorous categories are appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikipedia space, sure, but categories actually have an extensive precedent against keeping any such categories. This is because humorous categories clearly violates WP:USERCAT, in that they do not help the encyclopedia at all. VegaDark (talk) 21:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who enjoy darts

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Wikipedians who enjoy darts ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Nominator's rationale - Delete or rename - It's unencyclopedic to categorize users based on their enjoyment of playing darts. I enjoy playing darts, but I have no inclination to improve or knowledge that would help me improve any of the pages about darts. As named, I could join this category nonetheless. A far more encyclopedic name would be Category:Wikipedians interested in darts, but like I pointed out, such users in the current category wouldn't necessarily fit in the "interested in" category, so perhaps deletion is the better choice (without prejudice to someone creating an "interested in" category, of course. VegaDark (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't think of any usefulness to the project of this category. It is well populated (137), but that is because the userbox includes the category. Normally, one might think that the member count is evidence for interest in the category, but users probably aren't even aware that they are using categorisation. I removed this feature[4]. I'd like to see if any of the many users object. (Can I assume that none SUBSTed the userbox template? ... probably, as all incoming links are transclusions [5]) --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The category is empty now, so it seems that all 137 users were there because of the userbox (as SmokeyJoe suspected). Delete as a category which groups users on the basis of a preference that is unrelated to Wikipedia. As VegaDark noted, enjoying an activity (whether it be darts, eating or sex) does not imply a special interest or ability to improve pages related to that activity. I would have no objection to a category for users genuinely interested in darts (Category:Wikipedians interested in darts), which is not populated by a userbox expressing merely a "like", since the scope for collaboration is quite large. -- Black Falcon (talk) 06:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians who create Fictional Lands

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Wikipedians who create Fictional Lands ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Nominator's rationale - Delete - "This user enjoys creating Fictional Lands" - Several problems with this. First, it is unencylopedic to group users in a category based of enjoyment of creating a fictional land. How would such a grouping help improve the encyclopedia? Second, the actual article this is linked to is titled fictional country, so the title needs to be changed at minimum, as it leads to a redlink. Third, "Fictional Lands" is improperly capitalized, so once again, this needs a rename at minimum (but deletion is my first choice). VegaDark (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As per Category:Wikipedians who enjoy darts, all members are there due to transclusion of a userbox template. VegaDark, do you think it would be more productive to remove the categorisation line from the userboxes? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be more productive, but there's nothing preventing someone from just reverting the changes if they liked it that way, as opposed to this which establishes a G4 precedent to delete if recreated. Also, usually I find that while a majority of users might be in a given category due to userbox template, there are almost always a few exceptions that linger in the category, preventing a C1 deletion. VegaDark (talk) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. I agree now that it is more efficient and reasonable to open the debate here, where the implicit question, "should the userbox automatically categorise this way", is considered. No, it shouldn't. Wikipedia is not here to help such people to coordinate. Delete. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedians with science and art degrees

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete. Dana boomer (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Wikipedians with science and art degrees ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Nominator's rationale - Delete - We already have numerous categories in Category:Wikipedians by degree, I'm sure the lone user could find (or create if necessary) the appropriate category for the degrees he has. This is an unnecessary category junction - We don't need to categorize people who have both a science and art degree. Additionally, giving such a general description of a "science" degree and an "art" degree are so broad they aren't particularly useful, even if this was an appropriate category junction. VegaDark (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nominator. Armbrust Talk Contribs 11:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The user already has userboxes saying "This user has a Master of Science degree" & "This user has a Master of Arts degree". An extra click to acknowledge some guideline as a hurdle in category creation might have prevented this category's creation. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tagged the category which according to policy is sufficient notice. I used to alert all creators, and I still sometimes do, but when I do a group of nominations at once such as this, I'm usually burnt out with typing by the time I write out every nom and tag every category. VegaDark (talk) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Yuen Long District Wikipedians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Yuen Long District Wikipedians ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Zamboangueño Wikipedians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Zamboangueño Wikipedians ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
  • Actually, yes. From years of debates, the best I can remember behind the logic of keeping these categories from an encyclopedic standpoint is that someone could look through the list and ask a user to take a picture of something. Thus, categorizing where people are currently located is more enyclopedic that where they originate from (although there are numerous "Wikipedians from" categories that remain, the logic behind keeping them escapes me. Perhaps a mass CfD is in order). VegaDark (talk) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, I think I have seen that logic mentioned before. Unfortunately, I do not think that the users who added themselves to this category did so for that reason, and so the rename may be creating misinformation.
  • I'm guessing that you would like "Wikipedians in XXX" categories to be in the category tree Category:Wikipedians willing to take and upload photos on request, and "Wikipedians from XXX" categories to be in the category tree Category:Wikipedia meetups? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJoe (talk • contribs)
  • I wouldn't oppose the first, and as for the second I'd support a flat out deletion of "Wikipedians from" categories, as I don't believe it helps the encyclopedia to know where particular users are from (And may not be in anymore, so the meetup category wouldn't necessarily fit). VegaDark (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Basmachi

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename. Dana boomer (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Propose renaming Category:Basmachi to Category:Basmachi movement
Nominator's rationale: Per Basmachi /Basmachi movement. Alternately, delete as too small, with no prejudice to recreation if more articles on the topic are made. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_October_14