The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Turku#Name. T. Canens (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Turun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)

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Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Cliff Smith 19:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I originally proposed this for deletion, stating that the "Turun" is just a genitive form of "Turku", which would be the same thing as creating an article about "of London". The author contested this proposal, saying that he had created this page as a "navigational aid" for non-Finnish speakers who might be wondering what "Turun" means. I feel that my original reasoning is still entirely valid. This is really nothing more than an extremely simple Finnish language lesson. All the actual information in the article amounts to "'Turun' means 'of Turku' in Finnish". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary or a guide to the Finnish language. This is not even in any way unique to "Turun", lots of other Finnish place names obey consonant gradation too. By that logic, we would need articles such as "Lappeenrannan", "Rovaniemen", etc., and even that's only for the genitive case, not to mention the other about ten cases in the Finnish language the gradation happens. I genuinely feel this article serves no purpose in an encyclopedia. Delete. JIP | Talk 18:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Thank you JIP, but that is not what I said. For example, I never said it's for people who "might be wondering what Turun means". I get the impression you didn't understand what I explained in the talk page. Also, you need to see it from the point of view of an English speaker, not a Finnish speaker. This is the English wikipedia. For the rest of the reasons, please see the talk page. Cheers, Azylber (talk) 18:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Seems a perfectly good disambiguation page to me. Seasider91 (talk) 20:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Upon checking the links in the disambiguation page, all of the articles this page has links to begin with "Turun", except for the University of Turku and Turku School of Economics articles. This is a functional disambiguation page that should remain in place. Perhaps the two entries that don't begin with "Turun" should be removed instead? Northamerica1000^(talk) 21:05, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - This pushes the boundary of disambiguation page policy... and that's JIP's point. It's not a problem that it's a synonym for Turku, but it is a problem that there's no direct entry for it itself (or any other primary that someone would search for). To compare, look at London (disambiguation). Sure there are entries for London Protocol and other entries that start with London, but there are also primary disambiguation sources. This, by contrast, does not have those. That said, I'm not sure if it's far afield enough of the dab policy to warrant deletion. But people should understand we don't typically create disambiguation pages for the prefix of articles unless there's already a primary topic there. Shadowjams (talk) 21:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong delete. There are no legitimate dab entries here; all fall afoul of WP:PTM (partial title matches). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's wrong. Please see the talk page. Cheers, Azylber (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Turku#Name. Don't delete, as this is indeed a reasonable search term.  --Lambiam 10:09, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think in this case redirection would be a lot less useful than the current list of things that the word Turun can refer to. "What was the name of that mustard? Turun what?" "What was the name of that castle again? Turun what? I know it's in Turku and I know that one of the words was Turun, but which of all the articles that are Turun something or something turun is the right one?" "Ok, let's enter turun in the search box... oh my god, 20 articles! And they're all about things and places called Turun with a horribly long and cryptic word before or after" "Do I have to read each of them to find the one I want? No! Because there is a disambiguation page! A disambiguation page is a navigational aid". Hope it makes sense. Azylber (talk) 10:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Either delete or redirect to Turku#Name. This is not a disambiguation page. This is quite clearly what WP:PTM describes NOT to do: A disambiguation page is not a search index. Do not add a link that merely contains part of the page title, or a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion. older ≠ wiser 11:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's wrong. English speaking people in Finland refer to all these things as Turun something. And ""refer to"" => "disambiguation page" Azylber (talk) 11:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Turun something is the epitome of an unambiguous partial title match. And there is no reason for disambiguation pages on the English wikipedia to disambiguate Finnish usage. older ≠ wiser 11:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • We refer to them using the word turun! That is why it's a valid disambiguation page. And that is why disambiguation pages always say ... may refer to ...Azylber (talk) 11:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Have you read WP:PTM? Do not add a link that merely contains part of the page title, or a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion. Unless there is evidence that these are commonly refered to as simply "Turun" alone in English usage, there is no need for a disambiguation page -- the search function works even better than such a page in helping readers to find articles that contain the word in the title. older ≠ wiser 11:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • a) there is risk of confusion
          • b) the word turun is used like that by English speakers in Finland. Are you suggesting we need to cite a source to justify the existence of a disambiguation page? Policies say very clearly that citations don't go in disambiguation pages. Azylber (talk) 11:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • a) Evidence please.
            • b) The general expectation is that the usage claimed on a disambiguation is substantiated by the linked articles, which is where the references would go. It is a fairly routine matter to remove entries from a disambiguation page where the usage is not supported by the linked article. older ≠ wiser 11:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Turku#Name. I believe there is a clash of perspectives here: Azylber has a strong point in which he is trying to clarify a Finnish word from the perspective of a non-Finnish speaker who does not know the many intricacies of Finnish language. It must be noted however that gramatically the noun in question is not Turun but Turku, since un is a suffix transforming Turku into the genitive case, therefore from Turku. This is only one of the 15 declination cases in Finnish. A similar case would apply to Helsinki in which from Helsinki is Helsingin. On the other hand, JIP is also right in pointing out that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a dictionary, and I add that even on dictionaries we would not find the word or to be more precise a noun Turun because it is expected that one knows how to disaglutinate words and transform them into the nominative: for instance, one needs to look for Turku, not Turun. The same also applies to German and Latin for example. I believe that Lambiam has the best track for a solution in which the search would be re-directed to Turku#Name. (Brunoptsem (talk) 12:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • Thank you for your comments. However, this is the English Wikipedia and therefore, when it comes to determining whether this is a good disambiguation page or not, any analysis of the Finnish language is irrelevant. The facts are, that turun is part of the name of these articles about places, institutions, things, etc., and in English people use the word to refer to them. That is the very definition of a disambiguation page. Azylber (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - This disambiguation page consists entirely of partial title matches. -- Whpq (talk) 15:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Ahem I think you will find there is evidence in this disambiguation page for it's inclusion as there are two entries with very similar names, one being a football club the other the local floorball club therefore your rationale for deletion is flawed on that basis Seasider91 (talk) 18:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This can be easily solved with a disambiguation hatnote at Turun Palloseura. JIP | Talk 19:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - That's a good argument for creating Turun Palloseura (disambiguation) as there as apparently HC TPS is also known as Turun Palloseura. However, that is not a justification for this disambiguation page as they are all examples of fragment matches. -- Whpq (talk) 20:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.