The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Withdrawn. Withdrawn Missvain (talk) 22:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thage Brauer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Despite the claim that he competed at the 1912 Summer Olympics in the high-jump, I can find no evidence to support this. No-one of that name is listed as competing on Olympedia, and his name brings back no matches when searching that site too. Their are no results when for searching the IOC database and the Swedish Olympic Committee as well. The web archive link used to source the entry on the Norwegian wiki does not mention him either. I assume this is a mistake when the bio was created in 2007, so unless he's notable for some other reason, he fails WP:NOLY. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:00, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:08, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:08, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete My own quick Google search brings up only mirror-sites and dubious websites of a mirror-like quality. Nothing specifically related to the Olympics or Olympic history sources. Hoax? Simple error? Mistake? Who knows. Not for staying, for sure. doktorb _words^deeds 21:45, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, and was quite close to proposing G3 speedy deletion before a review of the creator's other contribs led me to figure it was more likely a good-faith mistake than a hoax. There's no there there; archival sources get zero hits at all for the name. Vaticidalprophet 22:42, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment He is mentioned in the Official Report page 1290 as a competitor in high jump, but not in page 392 where the results are. So probably he was a DNS? --- Løken (talk) 23:37, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Definitely not a hoax, but (as Løken suggests) there's a decent chance that Brauer was a DNS. The source for his competing is Paweł Wudarsky's Wyniki Igrzysk Olimpijskich, which is no longer online. An archive link is here. That site was the best available back in 2007 when I created the Athletics at the 1912 Summer Olympics – Men's high jump article. Given that other sources do not include Brauer as competing, however, I'm inclined to think this is an error by Wudarsky. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 09:07, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't want my use of the word "hoax" to imply any accusation towards you or other editors, I've striked-through the word in my !vote. doktorb _words^deeds 09:12, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hoaxes do happen, and it's not at all an unreasonable guess for an article claiming to be about an Olympian who doesn't show up in the usual sources. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 09:46, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as failing WP:V. Geschichte (talk) 13:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep There are conflicting records, but many sources cite the performance of Thage Brauer at the 1912 Olympics, including Bill Mallon's The 1912 Olympic Games: Results for All Competitors in All Events, which is one of the more authoritative sources on the subject. This source has been build upon elsewhere by other Olympic statisticians (examples [1][2][3]. The OlyMadMen (the source of Olympedia) exclude Brauer from their lists, but they are just one source. Given the age, sometimes there is more art than science to interpreting the primary sources. The subject clearly existed, which is why the Swedish Olympic Committee originally had a profile on him (including his death in 1988) at this url. We need to note these facts clearly, but this is clearly not an error. SFB 15:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking into this, SFB. All those sources seem to be variations of the original SportsRef page, and the first one even states its data comes from SR. Isn't it more likely that the original inclusion on SR was an error, which has then been copied? Or possibly something along the same lines as a trap street for copyright violations? Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:37, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Lugnuts: Either the result was an error/trap by Mallon, or it's an omission by the OlyMadMen group. I can't find any material going into detail on the issue, so perhaps the best option is to merge the article content to Athletics at the 1912 Summer Olympics – Men's high jump and leave a redirect with categories? Brauer is at the very least a genuine person set to start the 1912 Olympics. SFB 20:50, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the related deletion-discussion on Wikipedia Norwegian Bokmål-edition, I asked for a deeper look in to the the swedish website of www.friidrottsstatistik.se and their sources and authors. There could also be some good sources mentioned at the sv:Svenska mästerskapen i friidrott#Källor-list. Best regards Migrant (talk) 10:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And what about these swedish newspapers / Wikipedia:List of online newspaper archives#Sweden of the time he is supposed to have been active ? I would guess those years to be somewhat between 1909-1930 according to this bioarticle data for birthyear. Best regards Migrant (talk) 11:02, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I've written the Swedish Olympic Committee on the off chance that they happen to be able to solve this for us. /Julle (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Julle:. My hunch is that he was down to compete, but didn't show, or his bio has been confused with someone else. Worst case, if the article gets deleted, and he turns out to be notable, then WP:REFUND can be used. Thanks again. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:19, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Swedish Olympic Committee had no information on Bauer, but was formed in 1913 and they weren't sure there couldn't be information in archives that hadn't been transferred to them. They referred me to sv:SCIF, who organised the 1912 Olympic Games. I've now written to them too. /Julle (talk) 07:23, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SCIF has promised to get back to me next week. /Julle (talk) 07:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: A participant in the Bokmål AFD makes an interesting comment:

  There has been a Tage Brauer, who is possibly the same person. Svenska Dagbladet on 14 April 1988 appears to have had an obituary, which coincides with the stated date of death. Unfortunately, the article is not freely available online, but an excerpt can be seen here: https://tidningar.kb.se/1767385/1988-04-14/edition/0/part/1/page/20/?q=%22Tage%20Brauer%22&from=1910-01-01&to=2015-12-31&sort=asc. In previous birthday reviews, he is referred to as a [army] major and gymnastics director, and this may indicate a certain physique. But that does not mean that he was in the Olympics.

  @Julle: do you have access to SD back in 1988?

I tried as many open and closed searches with keywords like Tage, Thage, Brauer, T, Th, 1912, Stockholm, olympiska, höjdhopp etc. I could think about, but could not find further sources. Sam Sailor 19:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sam Sailor: I do! However, it's a short standard memorial advertisement with no biographical details. /Julle (talk) 04:00, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Julle.

There are book sources mentioning one Tage Brauer.^[1][2][3][4] Would it be an idea to follow up on the comment on no.wp, I tidligere fødselsdagsomtaler benevnes han som major og gymnastikdirektör and search the archive you have access to for "Tage Brauer" and see, if any of the previous Födelsedag idag-mentions are more than merely one-liners? Sam Sailor 08:44, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The general archive I can access from home (Mediearkivet) is mainly from the 1990s and onwards, unfortunately. I've also checked SvD specifically, but found nothing (going back to the 1880s) about the officer Tage Brauer participating in the Olympics. /Julle (talk) 09:30, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Update Following the excellent work from Julle and Sam researching the subject further, I'm happy for this to be withdrawn, with a note added to Brauer's biography saying he didn't take place, but the extra sources should be enough to pass WP:GNG. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.