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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SuperKombat World Grand Prix I

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The consensus of those editors who are not closely connected to this subject is tht the new source is not good enough and overll there seems to be no real challange to the arguments that the sources are not good enough. Spartaz Humbug! 03:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

SuperKombat World Grand Prix I

SuperKombat World Grand Prix I (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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There is no properly sourced basis for this event's notability per WP:EVENT. Bbb23 (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete no proper sources for notability, also author is edit warring to stop the article being deleted--Lerdthenerd wiki defender 20:07, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep As a long time contributor on kickboxing articles here in wiki, I can say its one of the premiere promotions in Europe. The article needs work and sources but as series of events and elite fighters included on their events it is notable, and within the scope of Wikiproject:Kickboxing. The author in question is a young editor here in wiki, and doesn't know quite how everything works here and his edit warring should have nothing to do by discrediting this article for deletion. I'm gonna work on it and find some reliable sources.thxMarty Rockatansky (talk) 21:25, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I agree that the edit warring and the author's repeated removals of the AfD tag should not have any bearing on the article's notability. However, I don't believe that the editor's misconduct can be dismissed quite so casually based on his youth. That said, it would be great if you could find some reliable sources to support the article. Another thought I had - and I probably know considerably less than you and jsmith -- is that you might be able to justify an article about a series of these events rather than this first-time event, as apparently a SuperKombat II is expected.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:47, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep There are a number of varied sources within the article and there are notable fighters in Albert Kraus, Rico Verhoeven and Sergei Lascenko on the card. There is also a world title on the card and the W.A.K.O. organization are also involved with Super Kombat in many of their events. As a new but ambitious organization Super Kombat are branching out into Europe and with the tournament format expect to see more of them in the future. I would also argue that by deleting pages like this you do not make wikipedia more reliable or consistant and you will only end up with K-1 and It's Showtime events. I would also argue that martial arts are not as mainstream as most other sports so relying on the big newspapers like the New York Times for event details is not going to be possible. jsmith006 (talk) 22:32, 11 June 2011
  • Keep Some users are practically laughing of my work here. I update kickboxers' stats, the events and I do others also like writing and completing profiles and some users which are clearly not in domain and which are usually not even reading the sources, are trying to make points on my back. These users are usually not even writers on Wikipedia and they hint high positions. I do not hint anything, I am only a writer here and this page created by me, it is well sourced and it is a notable event. SuperKombat "might" be in this moment, the second European promotion after It's Showtime. I need to repeat myself, this articles has references from biggest kickboxing sites, while Eurosport is broadcasting the organisation live. Also, the appearance of notable fighters, proves it is a notable event. Moreover, more World GPs are scheduled to come, there are series. Please respect my work! Thank you! Cyperuspapyrus (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2011
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 19:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisted as improperly formed, therefore only those with an interest have commented. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (t) (c) 00:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep odd-sounding name for a tournament, but the sourced statement "The event was live broadcast on Eurosport" seems like a pretty clear indication of notability to me. JJL (talk) 20:14, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This seems to just be routine sports coverage, which is not notable (see WP:GNG). I also do not see any independent and reliable sources--most are fan sites with unknown reliability and the other is the TV network that telecast the event (clearly not independent). I'm not saying the SuperKombat organization isn't notable, just that I don't see this particular event's notability. Jakejr (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I agree that there are notable fighters participating in the event, and that the event is covered by a somewhat notable sports network. The fansites are not suitable because they are user-generated content, and the only reference standing is one from the network that is hosting the show, so it is not a reliable third-party reference. Therefore, there is no reliable third-party coverage of the event here to make it notable. I Jethrobot (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I wouldn't call Eurosport a somewhat notable sports network as in Europe they are one of the few tv network in the continent that regularly covers kickboxing as well as international football, tennis etc. I think their coverage is specifically because there are some top emerging talents involved as well as fighters who have fought on K-1 and It's Showtime cards. I think that the issue seems to be with people not understanding the nature of kickboxing - this isn't Premier League soccer, your not going to get the kind of sports coverage that football gets. If your going on this basis you might as well delete all of the kickboxing pages bar possibly K-1 and It's Showtime.jsmith006 (talk) 12:32, 27 June 2011
  • Comment I would also add that each SuperKombat WGP has a title match, this is the contract they have with the parental organization, WAKO-Pro.Cyperuspapyrus (talk) 01:13 CET, 2 July 2011
The article for deletions discussions are not a vote. They are discussions. Also, the fact that the event only has one reliable third-party source and that no others have been found does not meet WP:GNG, as articles on Wikipedia require multiple, third-party sources that provide in-depth coverage. I, Jethrobot drop me a line 07:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete being televised or having notable participants does not grant automatic notability. It needs third party coverage, nothing in gnews, no evidence of it meeting WP:GNG. LibStar (talk) 13:12, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment No surprise to see you back again trying to wield the final blow. Lazily typing into gnews isn't a way I would use to test notability. This is a strong up and coming organization that has a roster of emerging top talent as well as some veterans who have had experience on K-1 and It's Showtime - the number 1 & 2 organizations in kickboxing. It has been referenced by the author using a variety of sources including liverkick - one of the top resources for kickboxing. Do you really think the USA news is going to cover a Romanian kickboxing event? It is also planning a series of events based around a heavyweight tournament - think of it as similar to a European K-1 Grand Prix but hosted by Super Kombat. jsmith006 (talk) 17:16, 1 July 2011
  • Comment. Actually SuperKombat has signed contracts not only with Eurosport, but also with other televisions from Asia, Pacific and South America. They are not yet on the American market but they will probably be in the Final Eliminations. Last year by the way, the former promotion of same owner, broadcasted the K-1 Europe's GP from Bucharest in United States also. Considering K-1 might be bankrupted (announced they will not host the heavyweight tournament this year), the Romanian promotion is in this moment the second from the world after the Dutch organisation It's Showtime. Practically the best kickboxers from the world are fighting in these two organisations in present, plus in United Glory. Cyperuspapyrus (talk) 18:43 CET, 1 July 2011
  • Strong keep It is one hot organisation. They are at the beginning because they just started in 2011 but they already scheduled a lot of top fighters on cards. For example in this next second world grand prix one very famous Asian fighter will fight, Singh Jaideep. The first even was broadcasted in Japan. I just hope Kyotaro will also be part of the Super Combat..

Ikazuyoshi talk) July 1


Ikazuyoshi — Ikazuyosh (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Comment We know you've put that tag in Libstar - maybe Ikazuyosh is a kickboxing fan who has wandered past seeing the commotion and decided to say his piece. I've seen unregistered user popping up to have their say and no tags were put on about that. Another effort to dis-credit any keep arguments jsmith006 (talk) 14:29, 2 July 2011
  • Delete. Per WP:RECENTISM and WP:PROMOTION. Not all sporting events are inherently notable. I see no significant media coverage, just sports blogs. Biggest problem is that local coverage would be in a language other than English, so sourcing would be difficult for many, including myself. Filling in a redlink on a notable fighter's kickboxing record seems a low bar for inclusion. I'm concerned this conversation shouldn't actually be about this subject, where the poster for an upcoming event is used to decorate a page identical in creation to this. I'm listing that page for deletion right now. BusterD (talk) 13:32, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (to above) - is it that difficult to use google search and translate Buster? You don't have to be actually able to speak in Romanian you know. BTW its polite to message the page creator as well, but I'm sure you know that. In response to your deletion for the Second SuperKombat event you mention that “this event's predecessor e.g. Super Kombat 1 (which has already occurred and not drawn significant resonance from the kickboxing media) - do you even know anything about kickboxing Buster? Btw that's not an insult it's just whether to see what sources you would consider notable in terms of kickboxing media - liverkick [1] “Yesterday, in the shadow of It's Showtime, SuperKombat held a big event in Bucharest, Romania featuring names such as Albert Kraus and a heavyweight tournament featuring K-1 veterans Dzevad Poturak and Sergei Lascenko.” And Headkicklegend [2] “SuperKombat kicked off their planned World Grand Prix series with an intriguing event in Bucharest on Saturday, featuring a four-man heavyweight tournament and a host of other bouts showcasing talent from across Europe”. That took me about 10 seconds to find. Also, thanks for contacting the man involved - Libstar thats how it should be done. jsmith006 (talk) 15:01, 2 July 2011
  • Listed sources are sports blogs and don't meet any standard for independent reliable sourcing. For the record, at the time User:jsmith006 proclaimed dissatisfaction with my failure to notify page creator, I had not even completed creating discussion page. Immediately after following the three steps of listing, I notified the page creator as the AfD page instructs, but you wouldn't know it because user blanks the talk page. Page creator has since falsely accused me of being a single-purpose account. When I queried user on that, the section was again blanked. For some reason, both User:Cyperuspapyrus and User:jsmith006 have used unfair personal attacks attempting to discredit my participation in these processes. BusterD (talk) 16:34, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Cyperus always blanks his Talk page. I used to think he did it only for negative material, but I've since decided it's egalitarian. I don't know why he does it. He has the right to do so, but it makes it tough to keep track of what issues have been presented to him by other editors. I agree about the personal attacks, and they are inappropriate and unfortunate.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Editors are entitled to maintenance their own talk spaces as they see fit. I've seen admins who did the same thing. BusterD (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To Buster – I merely mentioned that you should contact the page creator (which you promptly did) and I thanked you for that – so your dissatisfaction claim is incorrect, but sorry if I was misunderstand. As for you being a single purpose account, personally I think that is nonsense – I wish you were but unfortunately there does seem to be a lot of guys who solely want to delete stuff. My issue with you isn’t because of your personality, it’s because you are part of a concentrated effort that want to delete notable kickboxing pages because we can’t provide you with articles from the New York Times or the New Scientist or whatever kind of ridiculous resources you are demanding for a sport that is never going to be in that kind of article. I am sorry if you are hurt by Cyperus’s claims but the guys upset by the constant targeting of his pages. Please don’t try and paint me as some sort of bad guy when I’m simply trying to protect our pages. If you want a real baddie look at Mr Cobra Kai who has a crack cocaine like addiction to nominating pages. In terms of saying the headkicklegend and liverkick sources are not primary sources, I was using them as an example of the kickboxing media that had covered the first event in response to the “which has already occurred and not drawn significant resonance from the kickboxing media” statement by Buster. Oh and what personal attacks have I made - that you don't know anything about kickboxing??? jsmith006 (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2011
It looks good to me - as mentioned on the other deletion thing - thanks for making the effort to actually give us an idea of what sources we can work with rather than simply saying WP NOTABLE or WP PROMATION jsmith006 (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2011
Thanks for finding it, but I'm on the fence. Part of it reads like a normal source, and part of it reads like a puff piece. I could poke around the site itself to get more information about what it thinks it is, but I'd have to translate every poke. Does anyone know what the major third-party sources are in Romania? That would help.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 03:58, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I relisted this since there is a new source that needs proper review Spartaz Humbug! 03:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment [3] (In Romanian) or type Ieseanul Sebastian Ciobanu, invingator in Gala Super Kombat de la Bucuresti into Google. Talks about WAKO intercontinental title fight involving top Romanian fighter Bogdan Stoica as well as a list of other results from the Super Kombat event. Seems to talk about many other sports as well from Boxing to Tennis. I would not dismiss this source simply because it is from Romania. Type Super Kombat in the sites search bar and you get more results. Cheers Jethrobot. jsmith006 (talk) 20:42, 4 July 2011
Another source In Russian but results are clear and site also covers mma and boxing [4] Sergej Lascenko siegt bei SuperKombat jsmith006 (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2011
Heres another one bit basic but gives results [5]. Shouldn't people who nominate pages be as responsible as the editors in doing their research? jsmith006 (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2011
Preview but can be pieced together with other evidence to give overall picture - from Romania's top fight website - also covers boxing etc [6]. CLUE when searching type in Rezultatele Local-Kombat 21 - should return some useful Romanian sources jsmith006 (talk) 12:33, 5 July 2011
Sorry I don't understand - I am giving some examples of sources that can be used as Jethrobot did. I have not added them to the page in question.jsmith006 (talk) 16:50, 5 July 2011
User:jsmith006 asks: "Shouldn't people who nominate pages be as responsible as the editors in doing their research?" I reply: WP:BURDEN makes this the responsibility of the person who inserts or restores material. BusterD public (talk) 15:23, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok Buster - just trying to help. Perhaps you might like to go over the sources regardless? jsmith006 (talk) 06:56, 6 July 2011
  • Delete Lack of coverage in third party reliable sources. The new sources don't IMO hack it as WP:RS First sport.bzi.ro ref has the feel of media release originated content (assuming the Google translate is correct) for example the two paras starting "Superkombat World Grand Prix promoter is produced by Roman Eduard Irimia..." look like they are taken out of one. Secondly RU Fighter looks like a one person blog. Thirdly sportrezultatevest.blogspot.com is a blogspot blog, say no more. Mtking (talk) 01:54, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I'm not finding the amount of coverage in reliable sources that we need to ensure verifiability and NPOV. ThemFromSpace 05:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/SuperKombat_World_Grand_Prix_I