Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hank Bergman (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. per WP:SNOW (non-admin) - Milk's Favorite Cookie 02:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hank Bergman

A non notable boxer. The article seems to be created by a personal admirer with unreferenced biased information.

I am also nominating the following related pages because the articles are about non notable kickboxers created by a personal admirer with a biased and bogus information. It seems to be here since 2005 and is way overdue to be deleted:

(Marty Rockatansky) (talk) 08:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Comment. Can you provide examples of the #1 personal admiration, #2 biased information, #3 bogus information? The amount of references in the article now would lend me to believe there is inherent notability here, so the onus is on you to disprove the massive comment below. Also, would you be willing to answer why you have nominated so many kick boxing articles for deletion at this time? I am sure there is a good reason, but it would help provide context. Mrprada911 (talk)

Please provide a link/URL for the newspaper stories for WP:V. Thank you. Mrprada911 (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Context

Transcribed from the talk pages of Marty Rockatansky and east718. Mrprada911 (talk) 09:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sophisticated vandal

Hey how's it going EAst. There's a guy who's been creating all these biased articles on some obscure kickboxers, all of them relate to the guy named, Sherman Bergman. On Bergman's article, he lists tons of references, all impossible to check, which is probably what keeps it from deletion. There used to be a fighter named Sherman Bergman who was supposedly knocked out by Jean Claude van Damme back in 1976, if you google his name, pretty much all you can find is what is been created here on wikipedia by this guy. [1], [2]

I believe its the same guy with different user names like Special:Contributions/DavidToma, Special:Contributions/Royalfleming, Special:Contributions/Eugenejerome, Special:Contributions/TimBaker1941, Special:Contributions/PainlessPeterPotter, Special:Contributions/LeifSchumeucker, Special:Contributions/BusRiley1965, Special:Contributions/CliffHarper, Special:Contributions/RenoDavis1967, Special:Contributions/Lennybaker, and probably more

- Note. Special:Contributions/Kikiloveslegwarmers‎, Special:Contributions/Eddiecoyle1973‎, and Special:Contributions/Legwarmers1980‎ have also contributed to these articles. Mrprada911 (talk) 09:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of articles he's created: Hank Bergman, Walter (Von) McGee, Morsak Muangsu, Alejandro DasCola, Gilberto (Gil) Diaz, Carlos Andino, Christopher Allen, Wilver (Rio) Johnson, Bernardo Jua, Frank(Happening)MaHarris, Cornelious Drane.

i've never came up against anything like this but i believe the whole Sherman Bergman article is bogus. Look at the dates and weights on his "fight record", the whole thing doesn't make any sense. Have you ever heard of anyone having a pro record of 53 wins all by KO's, no decisions and half of them in less than 30 seconds all in round one??? there's no birth date on the guy, but it says he was an amateur in 1973, ok he was born some time in '50s then, according to his "record" he fought in 2000 at 202lbs, and then for whatever reason dropped down to 149 lbs in 2004 as a 50+ year old fighting 3 Argentinian guys all in one day....Brother whenever you have time if you don't mind to check it out. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 07:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Hey, Marty. I'll take a look at this tomorrow morning - if those sources are real, they'll be trivial for me to find. I do agree that it looks really fishy at first glance though. Sorry I haven't found time to work on the unified infobox, I've been pretty inactive for the past six weeks or so. Take care! east.718 at 09:20, March 7, 2008

This guy is demented, he's been doing this since 2005, creating all kinda bs misinformation. Man, i wasted 4 hours tonight just to find out that all these articles are complete bullshit. Everything you're trying to find out on those guys Hank Bergman and Sherman Bergman on www leads back to wikipedia. Have you ever heard of "Sling-shot punch"? there was actually a thread created in sherdog about this, after people reading about it here. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 11:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I spot-checked a bunch of the sources; none exist. I'm going to do a little more digging, then delete all the articles and post on the administrators' noticeboard as to what to do with the accounts. Great job on finding this and blowing it open! east.718 at 18:51, March 7, 2008

He had a long laugh, creating all this. We might need some kinda protection on List of male kickboxers, thats how i found it, going thru all the names. thx. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 20:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Hey, Marty. I took one last look at this, and it turns out that a few of those sources (such as the Miami Herald ones) do exist - but some of the others still don't. Go to newslibrary.com and search for "sherman bergman", and you'll get results which match the titles in the article. The only three where the blurb mentions him are the "Neighbors MB" article from September 29, 1988, which reads as follows...

Sherman Bergman Sherman Bergman is on the comeback trail. Bergman, an adult education teacher at Fisher-Fienberg Elementary, has returned to the sport of kick boxing after a five-year layoff and improved his record to 14-1 with 14 knockouts.Since his comeback Sept. 15, he has had four matches.Bergman, 30, retired from the sport to focus on teaching. He returned for a much different reason."Sherman came back only to show that through hard work and strong motivation...

...the "Teacher Gets His Kicks in Classroom and Ring" article from September 22, 1991...:

Sherman Bergman uses kick-boxing in the classroom. No, he doesn't jump around the class, but he shows students that his devotion to the sport can be applied to them.Bergman, 33, teaches English as a second language at Fienberg-Fisher Adult Education Center.He retired from the sport in 1981 to teach full time. But in 1988 he resumed kick-boxing, in part, to inspire his students."I try to show them that if you practice and dedicate yourself, you can do...

...and the "Kickboxer Inspires Students" article from July 12, 1990:

Sherman Bergman, who teaches English as a second language at Fienberg-Fisher Adult Education Center, tells students they can succeed at anything through hard work and motivation. Bergman, 32, uses kick-boxing an example.He retired from the sport in 1981 to take up teaching full time at the Miami Beach school. But in 1988, he resumed kick- boxing to show students that his devotion could lead to success the same way they could succeed in school with motivation .As he made his comeback,...

Additionally, I found an IMDB profile written by somebody without any other authorships on that site, for what it's worth. I'm starting to think that we're not dealing with hoaxes here, but rather a walled garden of non-notable people that's being promoted by a fan club or somesuch. east.718 at 00:11, March 8, 2008

He's not creating the guy up, I knew there's used to be a kickboxer by that name back in '70s who fought van Damme but the whole cult status thing, a sling-shot punch and the unbelievable fight record lost it for me as a credible evidence. It could be the Big Train self-glorifying and having fun, like i said i don't know what to do with it, how can you prove he's not notable or notable enough? (Marty Rockatansky (talk)) —Preceding comment was added at 05:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll think about sending a couple to AFD after doing a bit more research. Frank(Happening)MaHarris has already been prodded and will disappear in a couple days. east.718 at 09:20, March 8, 2008

AfD Discussion

Keep. THIS ARTICLE SHOULDN'T BE DELETED! This article has nothing really to do with being a famous boxer. It's about a Baltimore, Maryland war hero who happened to be an amateur boxer. If anything, if the fact that Bergman wasn't a famous boxer, just delete that category from his article, but don't delete the whole thing. Bergman is a notable person from the Maryland area & his military service to his country is something not easily dismissed. This article has support from references such as Soldier of Fortune Magazine, The Evening Sun, and the Miami Herald; all respected publications:Legwarmers1980 (talk) 03:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. On the island of Guam, Christopher Allen is a local legend. Remember, we are talking about Guam here. Aside from Chris, the only other noted MMA fighter was John Calvo. Allen is noted internationally. His 3 fights in two pay-per-view SuperBrawl promotions were seen world wide. Allen's kickboxing record was 16-4 & was supported by both SuperBrawl videos. If you delete him, then the majority of fighters listed under the categories kickboxers or male kickboxers should also be deleted. Just because a fighter doesn't fight in K-1, UFC, or PRIDE, doesn't make them less well known. Allen had the kickboxing background to earn his entry into SuperBrawl. He is as known to the general public in part because of his fights in Superbrawl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legwarmers1980 (talk • contribs) 03:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, subject appears to be notable (based on the sources given in the article) in his own right, regardless of whether he's notable as a boxer. Scog (talk) 07:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This Article Should Not Be Deleted. March 17, 2008: First off I totally disagree with the reasons that this article should be deleted. Let me address the questions stated here by Mr. Rockatansky.

1.) He says that Sherman Bergman is a "non-notable" kickboxer. How does he come to this conclusion: Clearly Bergman was not a world champion, but that doesn't make him "non-notable". To begin, Bergman was considered "One of The Best new fighters (Kickboxers) on his way to the top". This is a direct quoate from OFFICIAL KARATE writer Barry Harrell in the November 1984 Issue in the Southern Exposure Column. Bergman's career has been highlighted in The Miami Herald Newspaper (He has appeared in this paper approx. 40 times & the Herald is not a rinky dink newsletter). Bergman's career has also been written about in Official Karate Magazine, Black Belt Magazine, News For You Newspaper, The Trendsetter Newspaper, and EDWORKS Newspaper. He also appeared in South American Newspapers: Fundacao Brasil & Argentina Hoy. His fight with Frank MaHarris was reported on television, and he appeared on WLRN Channel 17 on South Florida television.In other words, would a "Non-Notable" kickboxer receive Local, National, and International Coverage, if he was a total nothing. I don't think so. This proves that Bergman was indeed a kickboxer of note & it's a fact (supported by newspaper, magazine, & T.V. reports) that he was noted for his impressive string of first round knockout victories. 2.) Biased? How is the article biase. Read it. It not once says that Bergman was the "greatest fighter", "The hardest puncher", or "The most feared fighter". It simple states the facts of his career. There are basically no adjectives before or after his name. 3.) Bogus Information! I'm sorry, but this entire article is supported with concrete facts supported by legit & highly respected sources. Examples: 1.) Official Karate Magazine (November 1985, page 14) printed the results of Bergman's 23 second knockout over Thailand's Morsak Muangsu. It's in the magazine & is not a figment of my imagination. This fight was also reported in an article by Johnny Diaz in the Miami Herald, and by Verna Lins Ferst in the Brazilian paper, Fundacao Brasil. Bergman's first round KO over Alejandro DasCola was printed in the Trendsetter, Vol.2, No.1 Sept/Oct.1989,page 5. In the report, DasCola is listed as 22-0. Bergman's 1988 comeback was highlighted in the Miami Herald. Bergman's 18 second KO over Wilver (Rio) Johnson & knockouts over Mario Wilfredos also appeared in the Miami Herald & Fundacao Brasil. Bergman's loss to Gary Daniels was printed in Miami Herald Sports Section in 1980. Also, Bergman's ring record is confirmed by newspaper & magazine articles: Examples: Official Karate Magazine: Nov.1985, Bergman was listed as 13-1 (13 first round knockouts. Miami Herald, Sept.29, 1988, Bergman was 14-1 (14 first round knockouts), Trendsetter 1989, Bergman was 18-1 (18 first round knockouts), Miami Herald, July 12, 1990, Bergman is listed as 19-1 (19 first round knockouts), Black Belt, Sept.1998, Bergman is 25-4 (25 knockouts),etc. etc. As far as anything I posted nothing was biased or bogus. Bergman's complete kickboxing record is open to debate. He is definetly 53-6 (53 knockouts). However, the STARSYSTEM had Bergman as 14-0 in 1983, while OFFICIAL KARATE had him 12-1 at the time. Some of his victories are clearly missing. Also, some of his fights were fought under Full_Contact rules & no kickboxing rules, so it's difficult to sometimes figure out if these fights should be counted in his over-all stats. For all of these reasons, I feel that this article, supported by a wealth of legit references & about a kickboxer known not only in South Florida, but Nationally, and interally as well, should not be delected. Thank you:DavidToma (talk) 03:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. DavidToma, and Legwarmers1980, I noticed that the majority of your edits here are to the articles listed above, and their AfDs. You make a fairly good case in the post above. However, while I don't expect you to discuss your personal affiliations with the topic, might it be possible to provide a direct respond to Marty's charges that the articles contain #1 personal admiration, #2 biased information, #3 bogus information with regard to the allegations of WP:SOAP and/or WP:Fancruft above? So far, your sources seem notable and verifiable, although without the aide of an online archive, I cannot say that 100%. Mrprada911 (talk) 09:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I added a reference to his being awarded the Silver Star. Maybe if we check him out using his given name, Hyman Bergman, we'll be able to find more information? BWH76 (talk) 13:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*INVESTIGATE After trying to verify any of these names through an online historical news database, I agree with Marty Rockatansky's nomination. I do not believe that these are authentic. Notwithstanding the oddities that Rockatansky found within the context of the article, I found nothing to indicate that Sherman Bergman, the kickboxer, ever existed. There was a middleweight boxer named Gil Diaz, but he was at the height of his career in 1962. The name of Hank Bergman turned up in a list of results from a bowling league, and the name of Von McGee turned up in a report of a softball game. Carlos Andino turns up as the name of a government official in the Honduras. I don't find the names, however, in association with kickboxing. I'll be more than happy to show the search results to any of the administrators at Wikipedia. I expect that the administrators would provide the article creator with the same opportunity to show the sources. Mandsford (talk) 13:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC) No need to investigate anything except why this was nominated. Mandsford (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ - unable to verify the sources. The Miami Herald has an active archive site. A search for the articles or even the authors of the articles did not produce the results that are needed. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 15:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just because these (and/or additional) sources cannot be verified online does not mean that they cannot be verified / do not exist. Many of these sources are decades old - it is highly unlikely that we'll find them online. Verifying does not only equal sitting in front of a computer to do a Google search. BWH76 (talk) 16:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More info: Johnny Diaz, the author of the Miami Herald articles is a former reporter for the newspaper; here is at least one of his articles. BWH76 (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was not a google search. It was an archive search from the Herald which should produce sources. However based on the actual images of articles produced I will change to Keep Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 20:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete You've established that there is a Johnny Diaz who worked for the Miami Herald. I find it significant that Gtstricky can't find anything in the Miami Herald archives that matches your bibliography. You've cited a long list of forty Miami Herald articles from 1980 to 2007, and not one of them turns up in an archive search? Mandsford (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC) My apologies to BWH76, David Toma, and anyone else. Sorry that I doubted you. I don't know what Grtstricky was looking at. Mandsford (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The online Miami Herald archive does not go back as far as the articles listed as references, so we can't rely on it to verify the sources. The authors of the article have pointed to "Newslibrary.com" where they claim a few of the sources exist, and also two Pap-Per-View SuperBrawl cards which include some of the fighters. I am still waiting for the authors, and the experts(Marty & East) to weigh in here before I decide how to vote. Mrprada911 (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the dates and weights on Sherman's listed "fight record", it just doesn't make any sense. I've never heard of anyone having a pro record like this, all by KO's, no decisions and half of them in less than 30 seconds all in round one??? And then finishing his career as a 50+ year old fighting 3 Argentinian guys all in one day. It can't be true. What makes it more suspicious is the guy who created all these articles has more than 7 user names. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 20:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Strong KEEP I've never had an "Oh shit!" moment quite as awful as this one from the newsbank search. I apologize to DavidToma and to BWH76. If anything was bogus, it was the statement that a search of MiamiHerald.com didn't turn up anything. I'm an idiot for assuming that someone actually did a search for the sources. Mandsford (talk) 23:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did the research but only on the Hank Bergman AFD. I checked the first three references. Which were in 2004 and 2005, I search for the title or the author within a week of the date the article was suppose to have been written on. I was not able to verify any of them. I used the advanced search at the Miami Herald archive and was not able to produce any results. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 19:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - certainly reads as notable with plenty of references. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Extensive talk page details have been moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Hank Bergman (2nd nomination).

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mrprada911 (talk) 19:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Mandsford, appears to be notable and thoroughly referenced via multiple third party publications. Coccyx Bloccyx (talk) 20:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep the Bergmans, no opinion on others. So the sources check out -- OK --- but there's still a lot of inflated importance here, probably a sresult of the fairly obvious WP:SPA/WP:COI creation. Needs trimming and rewriting. The Silver Star is arguably notable, the CIB is a pretty common award, though, and it's treated here like an MOH -- probably because the boxing career aint' all it's cracked up to be. --Dhartung | Talk 22:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Curious as heck, how do YOU define notible. Saying that being awarded a Combat Infantry is not "notable, but fairly common, has me shaking my head. I think any combat veteran who received this award is "notable", darn notable!DavidToma (talk) 23:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm sure you're proud of (apparently) your relative, but military notability standards suggest that we should generally have articles for persons awarded their country's highest military award (in the case of the US, the Medal of Honor). While certainly other criteria can come into play, and there's no reason not to mention an award in an article, if it isn't a MOH it really does not factor into biographical notability. --Dhartung | Talk 01:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Not my relative, not even a friend, someone I don't even know personally. Anyhow, I understand what you're saying & I agree the Medal of Honor is clearly #1 in criteria, but I don't agree that other awards like the Silver Star or the Navy Cross,etc. aren't notble as well:DavidToma (talk) 03:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's It For Me

I've uploaded 22 articles on the career of Sherman (Big Train) Bergman. The articles date from 1980-2004. It lists his record from 14-1 (14 knockouts) in 1988 to 47-5 (47 knockouts) in 2004. I uploaded his fight with the late-great Gary Daniels. I have other interests besides Sherman Bergman. I rest my case. I leave it up to the managers here to decide. All I'd like to say is that I've shown that through hard work off the net, research is possible as well. And Please remember: The "experts" here first swore up & down that the entire Bergman article was bogus & a hoax, that he was a figment of my "demented" mind. The "experts" beraded me & swore that all my references were hoaxs & fakes. Then when I proved them wrong, they totally ignored what I found, never admitted that they were 100% wrong & continued to say I was a fake & fraud. Also, that the Miami Herald in which over 200,000 people read every day & over 300,000 people on Sundays, was a paper in which a person being profiled meant nothing. And that Official Karate Magazine was nothing as well. Well, if a person getting full-page write-ups in a paper read by a quarter of a million readers a day is not notable, well then I guess I don't know what notable is. I've found this whole-experience is bad taste. I worked hard on a number of pages here & came up with concrete references & not once did I receive a "good job". Also, I was bashed brutally by people here who help run this place & that tells me a lot. Peace & Love:DavidToma (talk) 03:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is not a delete comment left, they are all keeps so.... Let me be humble and the first to say, Good job. Cheers Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 12:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep based upon the sources provided, etc. This is an interesting case study in the challenges faced by articles that primarily rely upon non-digital sources. I've run into similar situations where content has been doubted due to the fact there's nothing online to prove it exists. Try adding new titles to the IMDb these days if there's no website devoted to the film you want to add ... 23skidoo (talk) 14:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Still with Delete. This guy has never held any titles of any kind, not even his own State. For me as a hard core kickboxing enthusiast he's the perfect example of nobody being hyped up as a local living legend by a personal friend, relative or Big Train himself. There's only one person contributed on the page using 7 or more usernames. All these KOs as a 50+ year old guy, knocking three guys out in one night... Sling-shot punch and all the fans yelling "Get the comb" after each fight... its complete bs. People of no knowledge of kick boxing read it and believe it, good luck.

I've asked the author to provide locations of these fights, or any more details, no response, only two of his amateur boxing bouts. I hate to waste time on this, but i'll ask Florida State Athletic Comission if there was fighters license issued on Bergmans name coz according to his fan club he fought at Central Florida Muay-Thai Boxing Open Tournament in 2004. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 07:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Additional information Bergman is an amateur fighter. It's clear from the news stories listed. The World Full-Contact Championships is an amateur tournament, as is the Sunshine Tournament. The Golden Gloves is an amateur tournament. No mention of a professional fight in any of the stories. Jean-Claude Van Damme was never a pro, watch his video with Teugels-wearing a Gi. That's the problem here. The guy is holding trophies not a belt. The changes should be that These guys should be listed under amateurs, not prosIdidnttab (talk) 16:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is not an active Wikiproject Kickboxing we need to go in according of WikiProject Boxing or Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts. Guys with no professional fights will be deleted, only exceptions are notable Olympians. All these news stories and clippings are nice and beautiful, the fact remains Bergman is not a notable professional kickboxer. Besides that he is presented here as a living legend with an unreal fight record, its misleading for everybody reading the article, specially for people not that familiar with the sport. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 20:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I suggest to add this discussion under Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts and Wikipedia:WikiProject Martial arts as well that guys with more knowledge of the sport can decide whether keep it or not. (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 21:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC))[reply]

One more thing, if Bergman would work as a kickboxing trainer, manager or be active of any kind in the sport, i would have different feeling aobut all this. Marty Rockatansky (talk) 21:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cleaned Up & Made Corrections

I went over the articles I have & noticed that many fights listed on his record were full-contact, & sport karate matches. I deleted them. Most were exhibitions put on at karate tournaments. Moved Daniels/Van Damme to Full-Contact, as they were clearly fought under Full-Contact Karate rules. I errored in some dates & cleared that up too. Happy Easter to all. Peace on Earth:`DavidToma (talk) 23:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like i said, it was not meant to be a personal attack. I love this sport, and have all the respect in the world for these guys. I know how hard work it takes and i hate to see if someone gets credited or hyped up like that. Seems like u won this round... Easter to u as well. Marty Rockatansky (talk) 06:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Fahrer / Team für die Suche eingeben: