The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The nominator has been checkuser-blocked, and the other participants do not find consensus. Sandstein 09:56, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Kalnabu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Created by a sock and possibly G5 eligible, but other editors have been going over copyright and AfC here, so nominating here. This possible battle is covered by a single source, a 1967 journal article by Abir, in which it is covered along with other events in one long paragraph. The other substantial source in the article (Robinson, Arthur E.) is used for background information but has nothing on the battle itself.

Searching for Kalnabu 1837 yields close to nothing. It appears in a timeline in Polish, and also appears briefly in a book by Abir from 1968 which may be the same as the 1967 journal article, and is brief anyway.

To summarize, beyond the G5 issue, there aren't sources that cover this possible battle in depth. Pikavoom ^Talk 08:41, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - per nom, insufficient sources exist to demonstrate notability. Searches draw a blank. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:07, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, Military, and Ethiopia. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 09:22, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Don't see any reason to delete it, also has enough references and supporting citations now.Historicalfacts000 (talk) 09:32, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It actually only has one non-primary citation (Abir, 1967) with information on the supposed battle, and that's in a single paragraph with other topics as well. The other substantive citation (Robinson, 1926) has nothing on the battle and is used for background information in the article. Pikavoom ^Talk 10:13, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep See page 452-453 of Abir Mordechai journal, there are references there to Isenberg, Arnaud-Michel d'Abbadie, Campbell and Robinson, contemporary travellers to Abyssinia. Other (non-contemporary) 19th century traveller Herbert Weld Blundell. So there is potentially more sources out there. I vote keep, i find this deletion nomination too premature, there seems to be that no serious effort have been undertaken to expand the article's sourcing (via resourche exchange, wikilibrary for examples). It's also a relatively new article, other editors can still improve this article. Possibly from interested Wikiprojects. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 19:44, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep More sources are likely to exist, as the paragraph in Abir suggests this was a brutal battle with many casualties:

"Dejazmatc Kinfu, governor of Dembya, quickly gathered an army and moved down to attack the Egyptians who, by this time, had returned to the area of Galabat. The Egyptian force retreated in the direction of the military post at Doka, but at a place called Kalnabu, near Reshid, in an open area most unsuitable for defence against the Ethiopian cavalry, they were forced to give battle. Although part of the irregular Egyptian cavalry managed to escape, most of the regular infantry, the officers of the regular and irregular forces, and Sheikh Miri of Galabat were killed or taken prisoner. The Ethiopian force returned to Metemma and, after punishing the population, marched back to Dembya." 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 21:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Ficaia: Abir is basically the only source that covers this using Kalnabu, it is not certain this battle happened as the details of it are very similar to Battle of Wadkaltabu, which took place in Wadi/wad/walad Kaltabu which is spelled very similar to Kalnabu. Abir using Kalnabu, does not use Kaltabu in his article. Most sources are using Kaltabu, not Kalnabu, and the details described between these two events are nearly identical. Compare a search for Kalnabu 1837 with Kaltabu 1837. Also, a google search does not find a single source using Kaltabu and Kalnabu together in an article kalnabu Kaltabu 1837. The search for "kalnabu wadkaltabu 1837" only finds Wikipedia and its clones. Pikavoom ^Talk 07:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  As a further point for why these are probably the same, some of the sources for Kaltabu also use May 1837, though most use April 1837. This be because, as seen here, the reports about the battle are in documents and letters dated to May. There may also be a Julian calendar issue, as the Ottoman empire used the Julian Rumi calendar until 1917. I haven't found a single source that covers two separate battles, one in Kalnabu in May and one in Kaltabu in April. Pikavoom ^Talk 07:35, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Modussiccandi (talk) 08:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Beyond the obvious phonetic similarity, of Kalnabu and Kaltabu, the only real source using Kalnabu, Abir, describes it in a similar manner: from [1]: "at a place called Kalnabu, near Reshid, in an open area". Compare this to:
  1. Hill 1956: "According to Antoine d Abbadie, in the course of a letter to E. F. Jomard announcing the death of Kenfu, the batde was fought at Metemma (i.e. Gallabat) on the present Sudanese Ethiopian frontier (Bull. Soc. Géogr. de Paris , XIV, 1840, p. 58). The author of Tďrikh muluk ai-Sudan places the battle at Wad Kal tabu near Rashid".
  2. Endalew 2006: " the second , big battle that took place in April 1837 at Wad Kaltabu near Rashid, deep inside Sudanese territory"
  3. MacMichael 2010 "This year too occurred the battle of Walad Kaltabu, which is a place near Rashid".

So Abir uses Kalnabu near Reshid, while other sources use Kaltabu near Rashid. It's a spelling variation in Abir, not a different place and event as the article makes out. The map location of Rashid is probably this, which is 75 kilometres up the road from Gallabat at the border. The same sockmaster created Battle of Wadkaltabu and later Battle of Kalnabu (this article), presenting them as separate events, but there are no sources presenting them as separate events. Pikavoom ^Talk 08:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment the n/t mixup may be explained by a copyist’s error or a misreading of (ن) for (ت). Mccapra (talk) 08:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could be that. In addition, Abir is citing sources in French who might be citing sources in Ethiopian? Also Abir in his later writing Abir 1968, which is very similar maybe full copy of the 1967 article, still uses Kalnabu in the text but changes Reshid to Rashid in page 102. However, in the index of the book on page 203 there is no Kalnabu, but instead page 102 is indexed under Kaltabu, battle of. Google books has Abir 1968 only in snippets, but it does show Abir is not consistent with n/t and a/e. This 2020 PhD thesis that cites Abir 1967 as a single source uses "Wad Kaltabu" despite Abir 1967 using Kalnabu. Pikavoom ^Talk 09:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CommentThere are many references to other sources in the journal, i'm going to see if i can get my hands on them (archives, library or resource exchange), there might be also be spelling variations in other languages, or the location Kalnabu/Reshid is only determined by Abir, while other sources may in general cite this conflict as a Ethiopian-Egyptian/Ottoman conflict, or border conflict. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are no sources that refer to Kalnabu,Reshid and Kaltabu,Rashid (with existing battle Battle of Wadkaltabu) as separate. Even Abir uses Kaltabu,Rashid in 1968 as demonstrated above. On what basis are you claiming this is a separate from event from Kaltabu? Amir doesn't support that, Amir describes one battle, not two. Pikavoom ^Talk 10:32, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pikavoom: I'm not claiming this is a separate or part of series of events. I'm saying there are sources [[2]] there that are worth considering doing source verification. This subject that has multiple references to contemporary persons of that era who wrote journals, those sources may not use Kalnabu or whatever derivative of that term, but simply report a war/conflict between Ethiopians and the Ottomans/Egyptians. We won't know without source verification, and hence why i find your nomation for deletion (of a relatively new article) way too premature. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 11:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond the socking that led to this article, which makes the entire text suspect, I performed quite a bit of source verification. The link to Abir you point out, I verified that other sources that cite Abir use Kaltabu, even though they cite Abir that uses Kalnabu. I also verified that Abir himself referred to Kaltabu (in the index of his 1968 book) and to Rashid (in text of 1968) when referring to the same battle. The current article falsely states this is a separate battle from Battle of Wadkaltabu. No source supports that. The single Abir source that uses, part of the time, the Kalnabu spelling only has one battle like this, not two. Pikavoom ^Talk 12:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pikavoom: Lets get into specific then, the jstor journal has references to Robinson Nimr in Histoire Sommaire d'Egypt, Arnauld D'Abbadie in Douze ans en Ethiopie. J. Tager in Cahiers d'Histoire Egyptienne among others, so people with contemporary journals at that time. Did you verify those sources? While i understand you have some reservations about a sock edits, deletion of a article based on that alone is not sufficient when there are so many references to sources available. You can't find everything based on a quick google search, some of these old 19th century sources are harder to find, and require search in library or resource exchange. In the event that you are correct, and only Abir is mentioning the location, maybe a page move is more appriopriate, especially if other sources out there (after source verification) proves that it's reported as a Ethiopian-Egyptian/Ottoman (border) conflict, and not as battle of Kalnabu? I don't think this deletion nomation is appriopriate at this time. I haven't seen any attempts based on wiki edits, that someone has tried to get those sources. I'm awaiting the outcome of this nomation first before filing a request for sources at WP:RX, because of the duration it takes before a source is shared (if found). Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While I did not verify 19th century sources in French, I did verify multiple 20th and 21st century sources other than Abir, and citations of Abir. Some of those sources, for instance Hill 1956: AN UNPUBLISHED CHRONICLE OF THE SUDAN 1822-41, quote 19th century source material extensively. and I am 100% certain that Battle of Wadkaltabu, which is usually rendered "Wad Kaltabu" or "Walad Kaltabu" is exactly the same as the contents of this article (which uses the phonetically similar Kalnabu). If you need another source, this Ethopian history module that cites Abir has "He started his career by assisting his half−brother, Dejjazmach Kinfu in defeating the Egyptians at Wad Kaltabu (in present day eastern Sudan) in 1837" - again - Wad Kaltabu. Presenting a fake battle, as if two battles with the exact same details a month apart, took place in approximately the same place, is not OK and can not remain on Wikipedia. Pikavoom ^Talk 14:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge. It isn't "fake". The nominator has shown that it is a spelling variant or error. The solution is to merge, since the nom'd article is based on RS (Abir). Add a note to the Kaltabu article on Abir's anomalous spelling so it doesn't happen again. I doubt there is any dishonesty here, only editors confused by the sources. (The merged article should perhaps be retitled and repurposed as an article on the Egyptian–Ethiopian border conflict of 1837–1838, but that can be a separate discussion.) Srnec (talk) 15:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Srnec:, there is nothing much to merge that isn't fake, the fake portion being presenting this as two separate events in the lead which isn't supported by Abir. Regarding dishonesty, look at the revision deletions in the log. Regarding editors plural being confused, Battle of Wadkaltabu was created in January by ZemenfesKidus, while Battle of Kalnabu was created in May by BeteAmora who is in Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of ZemenfesKidus, per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ZemenfesKidus. ZemenfesKidus was blocked for problematic edits before the socking. There isn't any substantial editing, that isn't redacting copyrighted material, to either of the two articles by someone other than ZemenfesKidus&socks, the IP editors are also CU blocked. An editor, singular, editing as a sock after being blocked may have been confused or may have had a purpose to present two Ethiopian victories instead of one. Pikavoom ^Talk 16:10, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I am familiar with the high level of chicanery in Horn-related topics. Still, you didn't bring up the existence of the Kaltabu article until earlier today (less than 24 hours ago). You said in the nomination that "there aren't sources that cover this possible battle in depth". I think that is false. I think you have shown it to be false. No, there weren't two battles, but that doesn't mean we delete one title. Abir says Kalnabu and, right or wrong, we should keep a redirect from that term. (I am not interested, as some editors sometimes are, in whether or not the history of this article, and thus the contributions of a sockpuppet, gets scrubbed from Wikipedia.) Srnec (talk) 00:39, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I originally looked into nominating here based on original research in the article (the multiple battles), sparse sources, and the sock history here, this being a borderline G5, only maybe precluded from G5 by the copyright violations redactions which are substantial edits! My original nomination was based on searching for "Kalnabu"+1837, a term that is only used by Abir, and searching for it one finds very few sources. After discussion here, I much later figured out that Battle of Wadkaltabu which should be Battle of Wad Kaltabu is the same as Kalnabu and that Abir made a spelling error in 1967, partially corrected in 1968. The article, as nominated, had a single source covering it - Abir - the other source not covering any battle, just background. Searching the term used in the article, Kalnabu, led to Abir and a brief mention in a Polish book. The misnaming of "Wad Kaltabu" as "Wadkaltabu" obscured the naming issue on Wikipedia. I made a substantial effort in a WP:BEFORE for a normal AfD, not a G5, before nominating. I did not take in consideration when nominating that the article is based on a spelling error in one source in the title. @Srnec: maybe you should try to search for Kalnabu+1837, and you'll see just how sparse the results are. The location itself, also spelled correctly, doesn't appear on maps. Even the small settlement of Rashid is hard to find. This is a well known location with a spelling error that is obvious, but a placename whose almost sole use is the 1837 event that is misspelled in a reliable source. Pikavoom ^Talk 07:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I understand. Srnec (talk) 13:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Final say on this. Let's take Abir completley out of this equation. I mentioned the ‘‘French’’ sources because the details of the battle are referenced to them in page 452 of the journal. Let's see what the contemporary sources that are cited in the journal actually say, do they mention Kalnabu/Reshid/Walkalbtu or a Ethiopian/Egyptian border conflict? A few examples Robinson Nimr's Histoire sommaire d'Egypte (1838) is referenced to support the month of May 1837. Arnauld D'Abbadie's in Douze ans en Haute Ethiopie (1868) is referenced to support Kalnabu, near Reshid and some dialogue between Kenfu and Kurshid Pasha (not involved in the April Battle of Wadkaltabu) where Kenfu threatend with a sixty thousand army. While i have no reason to doubt your research into this at all, disregarding the sources that are actually referenced to for the actual battle details/report/figures of the conflict is not being thorough enough for me to support a deletion nomation, nor does it convince me conclusively that the battle of Wadkaltabu and battle of Kalnabu are the same, not when different persons (Kurshid Pasha) are involved. I suppport source verifcation of the sources that are actually referenced to for the dates and the name Kalnabu. In addition there are also still hard to acquire English sources that have material on this for example [3]. Still keep, and then source verification of the referenced sources, and take steps from there is my suggestion. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 22:00, 12 July 2022 (UTC) duplicate vote by editor who already voted, struck. Pikavoom ^Talk 10:23, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dawit S Gondaria:, did you verify these two sources yourself? Or are you trusting a banned sockpuppet's use of these unavailable 19th century sources in French? Pikavoom ^Talk 07:24, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And despite this WP:PROXYING for a banned editor whose citations you trust, I went the extra mile here. I managed to find Histoire sommaire de l'Égypte sous le gouvernement de Mohammed-Aly . My French is not great, but I did read pages 97 and 98. It does not say 1837, though it is implicit it is 1837 because it comes after an Arabian (Hejaz) campaign in 1837. I do not see anywhere where Mengin says May. I don't see Kalnbu or Reshid, Mengin refers to a "province de Kallabat" where this occured and how Campfou (or Kounfou, comment in source) governor of Gondar responded. Pikavoom ^Talk 07:43, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've also verified that Nimr, short citation form copied in article from Abir ("Robinson, "Nimr', I15"), the actual citation should be to NIMR, THE LAST KING OF SHENDI, E. A. Robinson has nothing on any specific battle in 1837. Nimr has a reoccupation of Gallabat in 1837 and a withdrawl after "The Powers protested at the invasion of Abyssinia and Khurshid Pasha returned to Wad Medani after ravaging the frontier. The force taken to the Sudan from Egypt by Abu Udan Pasha was replaced by an equal number of black troops".

As for Douze ans de séjour dans la Haute-Éthiopie d'Arnauld d'Abbadie, it is available online here. Abir cites page 312. Arnauld refers to the Ethiopian commander as Dedjadj Conefo (may be same as Dejazmatch Kenfu in article? and Dejazmatc Kinfu in Abir ?) as embarking on a campaign at the bottom of page 311. I don't see a date in Arnauld's diary, though he does speak of courage, valour, egalitarian spirit ("grand esprit d'egalite") vs. hierarchy and insolence, European discipline ("la discipline europeene"), and of battle after a very long multi page digression. I do not see how Arnauld supports "Kalnabu, near Reshid". Please provide a quote and exact page number and line for such support. Arnauld spells many names differently from other sources (e.g Dedjadj Conefo), it might be the French or as it is and old and archaic language in a diary. Pikavoom ^Talk 08:36, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As yet another example of spelling and dating issues here, this is a 1837 letter by Arthur Holroyd. in page 21, "When I returned to Kartoom* in May, I first learned the intelligence of the war against Abyssinia..." He tells of a "massacre of the Pacha's troops occurred during an eclipse of the moon on the 20th of April.", "having passed Kallabat, arrived at the Abyssinian frontier", and finally how "had driven them back across the frontier to Rasheb, and here the massacre took place." (*Kartoom=Khartoum or Khartum, unless we want a new city here?) Where does this silliness end? Do we make a third article, the Battle of Rasheb next describing the same demise of Ottoman expedition near Rashid (or Reshid in Abir 1967)? Pikavoom ^Talk 09:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pikavoom: This is the appropriate avenue, stay on this avenue, so stop harrasing my talkpage when we have a discussion about the subject here. Your found sources kudo's to you! But stop your baseless accusation of WP:PROXYING, i couldn't find those sources, but my intent was to search for them after your premature nomination had run it's course as i told earlier in the discussion. The sources you provided did confirm Kurshid Pasha, and guess what that's only two out of four sources in note 39, which leaves Ta’rikh Muluk 31 and The Royal Chronicles of Abyssinia by Herbert Weld Blundell (Cambridge 1922) left to verify. Remember the sock did not write the Jstor journal, Abir Mordechai did, Mordechai made references to those sources. Abir Mordechai is frequently cited in Horn of Africa related history. As for names, there's no agreed standard of romanizing Ethiopian languages(at least no standard for Amharic), hence spelling when romanized can differ significantly in sources, especially old ones. Campfou, Kounfo, Conefu and Kinfu, Kenfu are the same individual. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:40, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dawit S Gondaria: you are defending the hoax creation of a sock and making assertions without sources, and when you bring up sources they don't say what you say they say or say they potentially say. Please provide an actual citation that supports that this supposed battle of Kalnabu is a different battle from Battle of Wadkaltabu. A reliable source stating that two battles took place. I spent quite a bit of time verifying that the sources you brought up above, do not say what you said they possibly said. I have checked the sources you pointed out. I also brought up several sources that cite Abir,1967 that use Kaltabu. As an example, this PhD thesis cites Abir,1967 (Kalnabu) and Rubenson, 1966 (Kaltabu) to write "Däjjazmač Kenfu, Maru‟s nephew, fought against the Egyptians who raided and enslaved the border people as far as Wähni and scored a victory over them at Wad Kaltabu in 1837 in the Sudan". So that's an example that scholars regard Abir's Kalnabu as the same as Kaltabu by other scholars. Pikavoom ^Talk 10:15, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pikavoom: A very direct question, did you verify all the sources in Note 39, yes or no? As for two events being one. Where is for example Kurshid Pasha mentioned in relation to the Battle of Wadkaltabu, fair question right, if you are claiming Battle of Kalnabu is the same as Wad Kaltabu? Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 10:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I verified that every source you mentioned above, doesn't say what you say it potentially says. You have this backwards, if you want to retain this article, you are supposed to provide appropriate citations for your vote. So far you've been vaguely waving at citations, in French from the 19th century no less, that might support what you think might be possible. They do not. Are for Kurshid Pasha, the account in Hill, 1956 that is used extensively in Battle of Wadkaltabu has "Kenfu in secrecy raised an army to take revenge. Correct intelligence did not reach the governor of the Sudan, who thought that Kenfu's force was small. Khurshid Pasha sent 600 men with the commandant- of the 5th battalion, 400 Magharba:! cavalry and 200 Sha'iqiya4 horsemen. Counting the troops already in al-'Atish the total force amounted to 1,500 men, all under the command of Ahmad Kashif." In note6 on page 8: "* In reporting the defeat to Cairo, Khurshid wrote....". In note1 on page9: "Khurshid does not shield Ahmad Kashif in his report : "Ahmad Kashif .... with 400 regulars and 200 cavalry set out..." Kurshid was the commander of Kashif. Pikavoom ^Talk 11:05, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: We are pretty far from consensus here but I see more support for Keeping or Merging the article to another despite the nominator's insistence that there is nothing in the article that is worth merging. Perhaps another week will reconclie this stalemate.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I think Pikavoom has shown that no such battle existed and the content of this article is either a misunderstanding or a hoax. The only thing to merge from this article would be a brief reference to the alternative spelling of the name. Mccapra (talk) 23:55, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mccapra: If we assume @Pikavoom: is correct and has indeed verified as claimed, it would still be a merge for me because the article (least the Jstor journal in the article) gives additional information that can be merged with Battle of Wadkaltabu (barring Abir's presumed error with the date, that is if Pikavoom is correct that it's one single event not two). if they are indeed the same event, it's still not only a variation of mispelling of Wad Kaltabu. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The nominator is blocked for abuse of account. I was going to assume good faith and trust @Pikavoom: claims of having verified the sources since Pikavoom did provide some verifiable links to quite few of them. Wherever this afd nomination goes now, i'm going to try to verify the sources (Ta'rik Mulukh) and other sources for which Pikavoom didn't provide links just in case. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 18:13, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.