The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ShamanDhia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Shameless self-promotion by a digital media artist. Is she notable? -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 02:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NOT TRUE! I am SO ashamed for making these mistakes! :) Please don't ban this page address if someone else wants to write about me later. I responded to the notability issue here:(talk)

the Hitochi Princess (talk) 19:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia http://supervert.com/essays/technology/interactive_show - about "The Interactive Show"[reply]

other sources are hyperlinked from my school site: http://dm3519.aisites.com So, for example, the link goes back to me, but the link will display the newspaper article from the Buffalo Evening News. (which I bet I'm not supposed to scan and publish again) I am a "first generation" digital media artist, meaning I started exhibiting in 1992 (very early on - especially for females) and all my stuff is written and published on free sites, because it is in line with my philosophy of digital media art - so if yahoo! is not a reliable source because my Earthwork Artwork is housed there, I'll ignore it or delete it from my page. (?) I think I am a sort of special case, because I am working exclusively on the internet, and ecommerce is an element in my digital media creations, so everything has a donate button on it, it doesn't mean its commercial. I've never received payments from anyone on my so-called commercial sites, and they get very few hits.

http://www.geocities.com/shamandhia/fol.htm
People who mention me do it on blogs, like PIMAtalk (yahoo! group) I am not trying to advertise myself or my projects - I just want to get a legal page up about myself, because I am familiar with the content, and I can provide the information in the correct format when I know what it is.
(and your comments here have helped me understand a lot and have been very helpful so far.)
the Hitochi Princess (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

US Copyright info for Golem: (GOLEM_lives_783k.jpg)

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PAGE=First

Golem.

Type of Work: Visual Material Registration Number / Date: VAu000699904 / 2006-03-02 Title: Golem. Copyright Claimant: Denise Mortillaro, 1969- (Shaman Dhia, pseud.) Date of Creation: 2006 Previous Registration: Appl. describes preexisting material. Basis of Claim: New Matter: adaptation of design & additional artistic work. Copyright Note: Cataloged from appl. only.

Names: Mortillaro, Denise, 1969- Dhia, Shaman, pseud.

161.38.223.246 (talk) 15:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

• Strong Delete per WP:COI, WP:AUTO and WP:N. Neutral The autobiography part is fixed, and I see an assertion of notability, but I can't find too many things concerning her and it still sounds a bit biased.-=Elfin=-³⁴¹ 02:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above below. OlenWhitaker • ^{talk to me} or _don't • ♣ ♥ ♠ ♦ 02:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC) 02:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been watching this debate for the past five days since I made my initial recommendation on this matter and after reading through everything that has been written from all sides I now feel that I should like to weigh in once more. As I see it, this article, as it stands today, sits right smack on the line of the notability, referencing, and verifiability criteria upon which the proposed deletion largely hangs. The arguement for notability could be made, but would hang only by the slimmest of threads as there is still no independent, secondary source coverage that meets WP:RS standards. A mere breath in either direction could make it a clear keep or delete, but as it stands, the decision as to whether or not this article is up to standards seems to hinge on subjective definitions and semantic hairsplitting. However, Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, so we can, in some cases, sidestep the "rules" or indeed dispense with them altogether. In such marginal cases where policy alone does not give us a satisfactory answer, I think it is incumbent upon us to use more abstract methods of arriving at a descision including the consideration of other criteria not normally considered criteria for deletion. I would therefore suggest that the following be considered:

• This article could hardly represent a more clear-cut case of conflict of interest with the author of and only major contributor to this article being the subject of the same.
• Wikipedia is already deluged with similar articles in which an individual writes an article about themselves or their own band, company, product, or thing they just made up at work/school.
• The deleting of the non-notable or unsalvageable examples of such occupies a significant fraction of the overall deletion process at all levels (speedy, prod, AfD.)
• The author/subject of this article has stated that she feels that she is "clearly worth a 1 in 2.4 million exception." This statement--which is hard to interpret as anything but conceit and arrogance--would undoubtedly be echoed by all the other author/subjects of the aforementioned articles about themselves, their bands, companies, etc. which are so often (and rightly) deleted.

Therefore, I believe that (lacking a clear direction from policy,) I must still vote for deletion for the simple reason that, in my estimation, Wikipedia is simply better off without it than with it. To allow this inclusion only serves to further encourage any of the millions of people with a marginally notable accomplishment or two, a few free hours, and a healthy dose of self-importance to flood the site with an equal number of self-congratulatory autobiographies and advertisements. I realize that this alone is not sufficient to merit deletion, I simply offer it as a straw that broke the camel's back in addition to the very marginal notability, etc. To that I wish only to add that none of the above is intended as a judgement on the individual who is the subject of the article, only this particular article's fitness for inclusion. OlenWhitaker • ^{talk to me} or _don't • ♣ ♥ ♠ ♦ 22:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC) 22:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Neutral only hits on Copernic is self published.Coffeepusher (talk) 03:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Right now the whole page reads like a reseme. In fact it could be used as the header for one. The only activity mentioned that may have any notablility is Golem, and there are no secondary sources linking Denise/Shaman Dhia to the project, only primary. With the lack of any public coverage other than that which is drummed up by the creators themselves (including this article), this article dosn't have the notablility to remain in Wikipedia.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:51, 12 March 2008 ::)
  

Take a look at these, please:

EXHIBITS AND PROJECTS

Mar-92 Leading Edge Humanism - Buffalo, NY (Buffalo News; Wednesday, March 18, 1992 p.B9)

Nov-92 The Interactive Show - SoHo NYC (Artforum; November 1992 p.108)

Jul-96 Stations of The Underground Railroad - Lewiston, NY (GUSTO Buffalo Evening News; Friday, July 19, 1996 p.19)

Thank you for below ;) I very much appreciate your comments and guidance.

I would like to try to keep working on this until it reads - the "resume" style was an uninformed attempt to document "notability." This is my first experience creating on wiki, and though I understand the resistance to autobio's, I only learn by doing, and I can only do this page because I am familiar with the content. I will re-write, but I have class now 'till 5

the Hitochi Princess (talk) 16:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

Question do you have links for those articles?Coffeepusher

http://dm3519.aisites.com/DMORTarts.htm (all links/articles are outlined here)

There is a GoogleEarth entry for the UGRR project with 117 downloads.

http://dm3519.aisites.com/gusto.jpg <-- notes The Castellani Museum was at that time the first web site for a museum in western new york and cites me, "Dhia

Mortillaro."
the Hitochi Princess (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

161.38.223.246 (talk) 16:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia (talk) 16:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However she does sound like a good teacher, from the few comments I did findCoffeepusher (talk) 15:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete as per Elfin. Neutral - I am interested in seeing how this article develops before taking a stance. --Kristjan Wager (talk) 08:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: Aside from showing the nadis, this is self-promotion, and Wikipedia does not advertise even the most worthy of persons or products. Utgard Loki (talk) 17:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ShamanDhia (I responded to some stuff here, as well)the Hitochi Princess (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

http://chsn87.wikidot.com/graduates <-- fact check about HS. Is this a secondary source?

161.38.223.246 (talk) 20:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

• Comment The page was created by a newcomer on wikipedia, and although it did violate WP:COI and WP:AUTO, I believe that was more a newbie mistake rather than for the wrong reasons. Im going to ignore all rules in saying, can we actually save this article and turn it into a valuble contribution to wikipedia? I would like to use the AFD to improve an article for once, rather than mesuring its heart to the feather of the law. its just a thought.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Coffeepusher, for the vote of confidence  :) I re-wrote part of the page as a narrative, and I'm looking into the format for citing the statements - thanks for the welcome message with all the info - VERY HELPFUL!! I'll be uploading a photo soon, then I'm just going to wait for a verdict about this page.

161.38.223.246 (talk) 22:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletions. – David Eppstein (talk) 06:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, I sent the permission letter for my portrait today: forthcoming; also thanks for the listing, David. Do I change the tag at the top of the page for speedy delete or leave it alone (I'm a total newbie in wiki). the Hitochi Princess (talk) 14:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

• Delete per WP:COI, WP:AUTO and WP:N, still reads like a resume & still question AUTO & N. SkierRMH (talk) 20:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From my talk page "I am trying to give away Art through Wiki, which is what it is all about, I think." IMHO shows that there is still a grave lack of understanding about what is required to address the concerns that have been voiced herein. SkierRMH (talk) 00:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: [Ticket#2008031310018777] Permission for Denise Mortillaro portrait from photographer Catrina Genovese

Just got confirmation for my photo. The "resume read" has improved, but needs work still, I am requesting time to work on this as I am new to wiki and even though the page might be deleted regarding coi and auto, because I am familiar with my own work, I can more easily navigate the formatting in wiki and learn about the permissions and references - there's no way I could have done this much on an article that I know little about. I believe CoffeePusher understands correctly my issues qualifying me as a "special case." Other editors are not reading the comments, and take offense to my "crude edits" which are newbie mistakes - like answering in-line to the posts to which I am responding. i would clean up the page and fix it, but I really want to stay with one page at a time, and my time is running out for "ShamanDhia." Honestly, even the mean editors are helping me a lot with this (as did the "bots.")

From RHayworth's talk page

It is still shameless self-promotion. Have some modesty, woman. As I have already said more than once on this page: wait. When you become notable someone will write your bio for you. You have also done very crude edits to the AfD discussion, moving my signature to the end of stuff I did not write. -- RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 16:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I was responding in-line to the comments because I was late getting the welcome message, and this is my first experience editing on wiki. Others have neutralized their opinion based on my edits. Thanks for the feedback, and I will try not to be so crude in the future.161.38.223.246 (talk) 18:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia 161.38.223.246 (talk) 22:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

I think RHayworth is dead wrong, and no matter what I say that is always going to be her answer to me, and skimming content returns that attitude...but there are intelligent people reading and watching... I know for sure because some of my students at school reported what they read about me here, and were very involved in the discussions and also concerned about how I felt about being so "attacked." I explained that the yelling was mostly from auto-responders, not the people. (They see the ! and the colors and they get upset...they don't really read the messages.) They saw the comments and asked what I thought about the whole thing - the experience...they are taught in school that wiki is not a good source of info. They also told me anyone can post anything they want. We had a pretty long dialog about wiki and I don't mind speaking up for this system in college lectures.

ok - here's one for you. I did a website for an artist in 1996 that was hosted on hisname.com. Now another guy with the same name has that domain. I have the code, still. It was published on hisname.com, with a credit in the source code to me. If I put it on my site at work (college), It is considered self-published, or self-referencing...but it would be considered differently if it were hosted or linked differently, and the actual thing is a website. It's sort of the first one I made. http://dm3519.aisites.com/default.htm Check it out - its pretty cool. If I say published on hisname.com in 1996, and people go to hisname.com, they see his name, but that guy is not the guy who owned the site in 1996, and he doesn't know me.

ok - another one - then I want to include my EarthWork, but its sitting on geocities. I really made something out of the Earth elements, and its in NYC. http://www.geocities.com/shamandhia/fol.htm It was posted on a bunch of usergroups newsgroups.. yahoo ones I think PIMAtalk. How would I cite these if I were to include them in my page? How can they be wikiproofed? oh, yeah...someone did write my bio: (you have to look for my realspace data, not the cyberspace stuff) by that I meant you have to use my name, not my nick/id. http://www.artinstitutes.edu/newyork/experts_sec.asp?catid=305 does that count for anything with wiki? Its not on my faculty page.

I'm personally all about free speech and free art, and in the tradition of artists being a little different, and in the spirit of the wiki revolution, I think that at least one auto-bio by a conceptual digital media artist should be tolerated, watched, and formally accepted by the wiki community...because it will be a long time before anyone not in the digital media art realm will be able to understand my work enough to write about it. By deleting this page you are actually censoring progressive work that should be discussed and shared in a reputable cyber-community - that's not the purpose of wiki - ...yes, here I am being shameless again...

I'm only talking about the site I made in 1996 this month, because when I made it, no one knew what the hell computers were, let alone the internet, and art has always been a fringe culture in the US, so I never showed stuff or talked about it, because nobody knew what it was - also the technology available today (and storage space, and video, etc.) makes it possible to share it now...people can understand it and talk about it - but they couldn't do that in 1996. The people who did try to write about my stuff early on got most of the vocabulary and terms wrong, anyway...even Elizabeth merged my nick with my realname -"Dhia Mortillaro." A lot of people do that.

And the underground railroad stations project is huge, even 12 years later...and constantly growing, I put the googleEarth tour of the stations online in 2006, i think - not very many people understand the contributions of the Native American Indians - helping people navigate through the landscape from one station to the next - all the way to Canada. The map I made was a render from a topographical download from NASA and photoshoped to look like niagara falls... that screen became the GoogleEarth tour in 10 years. That's so cool.

Wiki is a kind of Plexus linking ideas and thoughts and threads. If you weave in my thread you're voting to remain progressive and adaptable. If you delete this page you are falling into lock and key karma power struggle stuff. You guys can understand that, but my waiting to be noticed by regular people to earn the honor of being "notable" beyond what I already am is crazy from my perspective because of the kind of artist I am. I can only truly be notable in cyber-communities, which are mostly friends and fans. Not always "reliable."

I'm long winded and sel-reflective tonight because I know I have to fix my bio tomorrow if there is any chance at all to save my page... oh yeah, and I have to figure out the footnote thing still. Thanks for reading, and thanks for the crash course in wiki publishing this week! I really had a lot of fun; and, I know the experience will influence how I approach my work in the future.

24.188.143.21 (talk) 06:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

I guess the blog-like entry above should go on the discussion page? A few questions in closing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:ShamanDhia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.38.223.246 (talk) 16:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Article is still an artist resume. Intro does not state clearly why this person is notable. This is a notable artist?, art instructor?, psychic medium? References and links show the normal self promotion a working artists does, that is not notability, that is an artist's directory listing. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete no sign of meeting WP:BIO criteria. Johnbod (talk) 04:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong DELETE Vanity/ CV page, fails WP:BIO, WP:COI, WP:N, etc.... I would list for speedy if not for the references and how detailed it is. Mister Senseless™ (Speak - Contributions) 17:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Updated since above 3 delete votes, msgs left on talk pagesthe Hitochi Princess (talk) 21:14, 15 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

• Delete The self-promotion is understandable but this artist is not yet notable. User:ShamanDhia should examine Wikipedia:Autobiography. Aramgar (talk) 23:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Strong Delete "...my waiting to be noticed by regular people to earn the honor of being notable beyond what I am is crazy from my perspective..." Thus does ShamanDhia continue to blithely demonstrate to us regular people that she considers her exceptional self absolutely worthy of a 1-in-2.4 million exception. And to claim "skimming content" as a basis for our failure to accommodate and consequent philistine intransigence is a bit rich coming from one who has so far given every indication of failing to acquaint herself with the WP that covers requirements for articles. Despite the efforts made to help and Coffeepusher's generous view of your newbie status. Please try to give us something to verifiably source your WP:N - so we can seriously consider your article - before any more self-regarding and frankly getting-on-forWP:BOLLOCKS essays. Plutonium27 (talk) 06:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am clearly worth a 1 in 2.4 million exception. How exectly do I need to prove it to you? Notability is not the same as poularity. My sources span 15 years and include the us copyright office, Buffalo Evening News, Art Forum Magazine, and the Castellani Museum Newsletter. What cuts it from your perspective? This is not an all inclusive list, just the basics to frame the article and provide evidence of notability, which is not the same as popularity. The issue isn't if I am full of myself or not. The issue is that AdF might be used in some instances to improve an article and keep it as a valuable contribution to wiki. Those able to respond to that idea, are the ones I can work with. Flippant and sarcastic judgements that discourage attempts to improve article quality should be tempered.the Hitochi Princess (talk) 13:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia The edit history shows evidence that I am continually becoming aware of all of your formating and standards. Are there questions as to my N because the sources I submitted are not accepted, or is it that I need more of them, or different kinds of them? Maybe revert if this version reads worse than the earlier one. I haven't even been here a week yet (6th day). I'm not trying to insult anybody. If this version is Bullocks to you, read an earlier version and say if it made progess or not. I know the AUTO is always a valid arguement from your end.the Hitochi Princess (talk) 15:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia "..but always remained focused on the idea of creating income throgh the internet instead of with regular jobs." I said it again in the page "regular" refering to out of the internet. Sorry, I feel badly that I was crude again after I said I would try not to be in the future. the Hitochi Princess (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.