The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Helen Gibbins (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Contested prod, tag was removed with a WP:INHERITED reason, but notability isn't inherited. This entry doesn't meet WP:GNG / WP:BIO, there isn't one trivial mention on mainstream New Zealand news websites: ODT, NZ Herald, Stuff.co.nz. TVNZ has one mention but it is a different person. XLerate (talk) 05:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. —XLerate (talk) 05:46, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• I am amazed that she has not been noticed as Chief Guide in New Zealand, let alone the other position she holds. It seems to me that this is an article that needs rescue not deletion, but I will hold judgment for now. --Bduke (Discussion) 06:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I don't see any mention of her on the websites of either the Guides or NCWNZ. Wayback has three past NCWNZ presidents listed but not her[1]. XLerate (talk) 06:58, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• She seems to have a section in "New Zealand Activists: Nándor Tánczos, Vince Siemer, Brian Tamaki, Kerry Bolton, Jeanette Fitzsimons, Marilyn Waring, Tim Selwyn" see this amazon link. Can anyone in NZ find this book? --Bduke (Discussion) 07:18, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The excerpt on Vincent Siemer appears to be a copy of the Vince Siemer article. XLerate (talk) 07:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Seems like the sort of trivial article that is far too common in wiki. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 08:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. No reliable sources. The Helen Gibbins married to Michael Palin is more notable than this one, but neither deserve an article. Gregcaletta (talk) 11:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per rationale of Bduke.--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep She is the leader of a group comprised of 20,562 members, and also of another group representing women voters in that nation that has been around for more than a century. Both organizations get ample news coverage, and have their own Wikipedia articles. Dream Focus 01:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see her name on those sites, but I don't see the name of their current leaders either. Is this a hoax? Does that organization have someone who is a Chief Guide? I searched the site for that and found zero results. site:http://www.girlguidingnz.org.nz/ "chief guide" Dream Focus 01:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Until there are reliable sources mentioning her, there is no way to create an article involving her, or even know if the claims on her article are true. Gregcaletta (talk) 02:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete These two searches can't find anything on her, and Google Books doesn't recognise the volume Bduke linked above. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 07:11, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment That search is for "helen gibbens". Article is at "Helen Gibbins" (almost equally uneventful search)--ClubOranje^T 10:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Derp, don't know how I made that typo. Gomen. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 10:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• The link works for me. It gives the book title and a "Product description" that increases the list of names in the title to a much longer list that includes the name "Helen Gibbins". Could someone in NZ look for it in a library and not just rely on the internet? --Bduke (Discussion) 09:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I looked in 3 NZ library catalogs and didn't see it, do you see it available in any NZ library (list here)? XLerate (talk) 09:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)The link is fine; I was referencing Google Books, which is entirely distinct from Amazon. Also, FWIW, I'm unable to find either the book name or the publisher credited on the Wellington city library website. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 09:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. I reserved judgment above, but I am coming down for delete, as it just seems there are no sources to support an article on someone who it seems ought to have been noticed by many. If sources turn up in future, it can always be recreated. --Bduke (Discussion) 10:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete for failing verifiability. The claims, if true, may be notable, but there is no corroboration for any of this in reliable sources. -- Whpq (talk) 18:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Unverifiable claims, lack of reliable sources. SnottyWong ^talk 18:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{Rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong ^talk 18:47, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• CLARIFY: The article under discussion here was tagged for {{Rescue}} by User:Kintetsubuffalo in seeking assistance with its improvement. ---- 05:44, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I created the article. I have just added several credible references. BTW, My wife knows her from 'way back', and we have visited Helen Gibbins' home during a visit to New Zealand; however, I realise that is not "credible evidence".- Peter Ellis - Talk 03:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ScoutWiki is publicly editable, so it's not a reliable source per WP:SPS. Also, following the link to it, I can't find where *it* cites Helen Gibbins being Chief Guide to. --Andrensath (talk | contribs) 04:31, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That Scoutwiki article was originally copied from wikipedia, so I have removed that reference. The other reference to a group of teachers is not acceptable either. Peter Ellis may know that is the right Helen Gibbins, but we do not. In all the work I have done on Scouting pages here, I have never found the search for references as difficult as this one. --Bduke (Discussion) 07:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - no evidence of notability. Even if a reliable source could be found (and I'm yet to sight one that passes WP:RS) it would seem Gibbins fails WP:GNG. It shouldn't be this hard.--ClubOranje^T 05:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of flat out deletion, what about moving this to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Article incubator/Helen Gibbins until something can be found? Peter Ellis is clearly not a hoaxer and wrote the article in good faith. There are but 4 million New Zealanders, perhaps their Internet culture is such that they don't post such things, yet maybe something can be found in literature... just a thought.--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with that generalisation. Look at Peter Jackson for example - over 1,000 articles containing his name on the NZ Herald website. If anything being a smaller country makes it easier, not harder, to get your name in the newspaper. I also don't think there's enough content to worry about incubating. XLerate (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's a specious argument if ever there was one. The man made one of the most successful movie trilogies ever, was knighted, and is perhaps the best known New Zealander today. It's like comparing the police chief of Hermosillo to Robert Rodriguez.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You were trying to say perhaps famous people don't get much coverage on the Internet here, but that's simply not true, they get heaps. The issue isn't if notable people get coverage, but the notability of this person. XLerate (talk) 13:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.