We have a long standing discussion about whether is it relevant or irrelevant the background information about "the southernmost city in the world". Should the article include this information?. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 21:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In 1998 the Chilean-Argentine "comité de frontera", a bi-national commission derivated from the most important treaty between both countries since 1881 the Treaty of Peace and Friendship of 1984 between Chile and Argentina, agreed [1] that the southernmost city of the world title belong to Puerto Williams, on the south shore of the Beagle Channel.

Nonetheless, the tourism board of Ushuaia had promoted the city "as the southernmost city in the world" and google seems to favour Ushuaia. But that is not the question here.

The question is whether the reader has to be informed in the article, and not only in another article, that there was a agreement and that this agreement has been disavowed by the Argentine authorities

• [2] The Argentine senat deals with the issue
• [3] the tourism board denied the agreement

I think it is worthwhile for the reader to know how important is for the city of Ushuaia to be considered the the southernmost city of the world. The article Puerto Williams has the complete story of the agreement.

Moreover, WP:NPOV is very clear about this:

Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is non-negotiable and all editors and articles must follow it.

--Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 21:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why Keysanger has taken this to RfC already, as he has yet to answer the points raised above, and has misrepresented the incident. In short: of his three references, the first is an article in El Clarín reporting that the commission agreed to transfer the title from Ushuaia to Puerto Williams, but the second two references report official denials that the matter was even discussed. So despite Keysanger's claim, there was certainly no agreement on the title. The first reference represents false reporting by Clarín to try to derail the real negotiations that had taken place (attempting to set up new arrangements for the peaceful administration of the border between Argentina and Chile, among other things by arranging for peaceful military transport of Chilean forces across Tierra del Fuego see below). Keysanger is correct that this is correctly (if elliptically) described in the article Puerto Williams, and I have suggested that something similar be added to the Tourism section of Ushuaia, or perhaps preferably that it be removed to the article Southernmost settlements, which already has a section on the title "Southernmost City of the World" and is probably the right place to put this. -- Elphion (talk) 01:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an outside commentator - I would say that if the fact that it is the southern most city in the world is factually accurate and verifiable with sources (as appears above per Elphion's comment) - then it is definitely relevant to include it. Connolly15 (talk) 14:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Connolly,

the question here is not whether Puerto Williams or Ushuaia is scotw but the background of the agreement that some editor try to hide. If this agreement (or not-agreement) was worthwhile to be reported to the Argentine Senat, is it worthwhile to be reported by Wikipedia?. I think by WP:NPOV yes, it is important and is to be reported in the lede. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 16:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A few points:

(1) Keysanger asked on my talk page where I got the notion that military transport across Tierra del Fuego was discussed, and the answer is -- by misreading the article (ref 1). Even though security forces from both countries were present, there's no clear indication that the talks discussed military transport. The crossing of the channel from Puerto Almanza appears to have been aimed at the benefit of the economy of Puerto Williams and the convenience of its inhabitants.

(2) The possibility that the title SCOTW came up, as reported by El Clarín, is therefore higher; but the fact remains that in the other reports (refs 2 and 3 above) the commissioners present at the talks deny that any such agreement was reached, and I have seen nothing further from El Clarín (or any other source) denying the charge that their reporting was inaccurate.

(3) It doesn't strike me as odd that the commissioners should report to the Chamber of Deputies, especially given the press coverage from El Clarín. Note that the Deputies are not rejecting an agreement made by the commissioners; the commissioners are instead reporting that no such agreement occurred in the first place.

(4) So the summary of this in our article on Puerto Williams is correct: El Clarín reported an agreement, but this was denied by the commissioners present. I have no problem adding that to the Tourism section of the present article, though I think Southernmost settlements is a more appropriate spot, rather than repeating the information in several different places.

(5) I agree with Keysanger, against Connolly, that the fact of being SCOTW is not in fact factually verifiable, as the *long* discussion above adequately illustrates. It is sufficient to note that Ushuaia (among other places) claims the title.

-- Elphion (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are two separate matters. And both have been discussed previously. The first is Ushuaia's condition as the southernmost city in the world, reflected in the beginning of the article (with sources). Note that it has already been agreed that it may not be universally accepted that Puerto Williams is not a city, so the wording "commonly regarded" was used. The other is the controversy of whether Argentina handed over the slogan that has caracterised Ushuaia in favor of Puerto Williams. This is also mentioned in the article. What I consider irrelevant about the controversy is that, no matter what the outcome is, it won't magically make Puerto Williams known as the southernmost city. Otherwise, Wikipedia would be a propaganda organ.190.17.69.249 (talk) 14:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that Puerto Williams doesn't claim (any more) to be the scotw. I didn't find sources asserting that.

Puerto Williams, the southernmost town in the world (by a Chilean government website) seems to be the new slogan promoting Puerto Williams.

I would agree to change the content of the "Ushuaia" article for including these facts. The disvowed agreement remain as a short reference and can be referred as a "old claim" or "past discussion" or something like that. (Of course the assertion that "PW's as scotw is dubious" by a WP-editor is wrong in an article of the English Wikipedia and can't be sustained).

The inclusion of this new fact would release the tension of the wording and would push the disclaim into Argentine domestic policies.

That is my proposal to resolve the case. What do you think Elphion? IP-User?.--Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 12:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I just noticed that the SCOTW claim and some of its history it already included in this article (under Geography). In light of this, what specific changes to the current text do you think would be advisable? -- Elphion (talk) 16:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Include I agree with Elphion that the current text which describes the dispute appears to be proper weight. However, the lead should probably also have a few words, e.g. it can say, "... commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world (a title disputed by Puerto Williams)." LK (talk) 06:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Include - [RFCbot suggested I offer my uninvolved opinion.] Content in Geography gives this issue due weigh but needs work. For example, the sentence "As a center of population, commerce, and culture, and as a town of significant size and importance, Ushuaia however clearly qualifies as a city." appears to be OR and SYN but is in my opinion unnecessary. Ushuaia's status as a city has already been well established from the lead onwards. Brief neutral mention of scitw controversy in the lead, per Lawrencekhoo, is appropriate. Jojalozzo 15:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Include a mention of Ushuaia's claim but there is at least some controversy about it, which should be acknowledged. I suggest: Collect all the information about the controversy (including the purported agreement, whether Puerto Williams is a city, etc.) in one place, probably Southernmost settlements; then articles like this one would note that the claim is made but is disputed and include a wikilink to the article collecting all the details. JamesMLane t c 14:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Include I agree with JamesMLane and his diplomatic proposal.--Fox1942 (talk) 10:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• IncludePer what has been said above. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Include per JamesMLane's proposal. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Include in the manner suggested by Lane. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have enough feedback from the community and it is overwhelming for the inclusion of the background of the dispute in the lede. I support ...commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world (a title disputed by Puerto Williams). --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 12:09, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Just framing: Southernmost is an objective term, and "city" is where the subjectivity comes in causing the dispute. Therefore, "The largest of the southernmost settlements..." can avoid the contention over bragging rights and yet state the matter with objectivity.--cregil (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention-- I'm an uninvolved editor.--cregil (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal:

• It is commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world^[1][2] (a title long disputed by smaller Puerto Williams).

has been accepted. No objections. RfC closed. Thanks to all participants in the RfC for civility. --Best regards, Keysanger (what?) 09:52, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]