Archive 1

Archive 2

I have just reverted a large amount of text apparently copied from http://www.oromoliberationfront.org/OromiaBriefs.htm. This had happened on Dec. 2, 2005 as well, though from a different IP address. If I'm not mistaken the same text appeared in older versions of this article the Oromia article, so apparently we still need to keep an eye out. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

From what I've long heard, the Amharas and Oromos historically and currently haven't gotten along well and don't get along well, to say the very least. Gringo300 19:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Simply reason, which doesn't have to do with being an "outsider" or "insider", the Oromo were colonized in the last decades of the 19th century by Amarah/Tigray led conquest backed by western military support. Since their colonization the Oromos have been oppressed being treated as second class citizens because the Oromo are the majority population. The Ethiopian state from Thewodros through Haile Selaise and Meles Zenawi today feel that by abusing their power to oppress these people their are keeping the country under control, but in reality has further created a nationalist response in the form of the OLF which seeks freedom and liberation from Ethiopia. —preceding unsigned comment by 24.151.174.225 (talk • contribs) 06:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted edits saying the Oromos constitute 40% of the population. Although this is the claim by the CIA factbook, it is simply inaccurate. The 1994 census had oromos as around 32% of the population, Amharas as around 31%, and Tigrays as around 6%. According to the CIA, Oromo are 40% and Amhara [b]and[/b] Tigrays are 32%. This ethnic composition has been on the site for a number of years (the wayback machine only lets me look as far back as October 17, 2000, but I doubt the data has been changed since before 1994); coupled with the fact that the Amhara and Tigre groups haven't been separated into two separate statistics makes it very unlikely that the data has been updated all those years. Moreover, the CIA puts the "Shankella" at 6%, whereas Shanqella isn't actually an ethnic group, but an Agaw word refering to the black tribes on the Sudanese border (e.g. Anuak, Nuer, etc.). Altogether, the CIA factbook is a very suspect source in my eyes.

Yom 00:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, the World Almanac also shows Amhara/Tigray as a single (or grouped) ethnicity, but perhaps furthering your point, I would probably not have used it as a source. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Now that I actually got the book out and looked, I'm guessing the World Almanac got its figures from the CIA (since it's in the public domain). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Where does the CIA Factbook get its figures? From the Ethiopian CSA? NGOs in Ethiopia? Or from their own information-gathering sources? (Now I'm picturing spies in trenchcoats wandering the Ethiopian coutnryside performing census interviews ;) -- llywrch 00:33, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't really see much that would be disputed, so I removed that part of the tag; I haven't yet removed the POV tag, but I'm inclined too, as I really don't see much of a bias. It needs some more info wrt to any Oromo states that existed, though. Although I think the kingdom of Kaffa was Kaffa/Sidama, but someone should add some info about Jimma which was Oromo and other tribes.

Yom 21:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, what exactly is the citation style I should use for the nomenclature (which I'm about to add some info to)? Do I add the note at the very end of the quotation, and what about quotations through a middle man (i.e. a quotation of B, but you're really quoting A quoting B)? Thanks.

Yom 21:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Someone has added the "African Nomads" category to this page. I'm not sure if it's applicable, however. The only Oromo sub-group that is nomadic are the Bale in the far Southeast. All other divisions of the Oromo are sedentary and have an agrarian society. Given that the majority are not Nomads, I'm going to remove the category, but if we get an article on the Bale (not the province, but the people), then it should be added.

Yom 20:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This section mostly consists of red links. Any individual who is sufficiently notable to appear in this list should have his or her own Wikipedia article. I would suggest that anyone wanting to add a person to the list should first create an article (even a stub, at least to get started), and then add the person to the list (presumably, such an article can stand on its own merits regarding Wikipedia's notability guidelines). Furthermore I think descriptors such as "famous", "prominent", and "notable" are redundant (not to mention PoV), since anyone appearing in the list should be notable. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been a while since I mentioned the issue. I have gone ahead and deleted the red links. Some entries didn't contain links at all but I couldn't find any articles when I searched for those people. Some links included a title (e.g. "Lij", "Hon.") and when I tried searching without the titles (based on Wikipedia naming standards) I couldn't find those articles, either. Again, if someone merits inclusion in the list, he or she merits his or her own article. I suggest creating the article first and then adding it to the list. Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

143.127.131.4 (Talk) has removed some information regarding religion among Oromos. Though the removed information was uncited, it seems to me to be correct or at least reasonable.

Yom 00:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I wrote about the religion background in Oromo. I found the information through my friend who was born and raised in Oromo. The reason I was interested in the section was that I felt like something is missing, in the information. Also Oromo is one the biggest tribe, and the cover like 60 percent of Ethiopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiflemd (talk • contribs) 04:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

There is an Oromo proverb newcomers should keep in mind when discussing this article: Intalille daa haqa gorsite -- "The young girl wishes to give advice to her mother on childbirth."

Many Oromo separatists claim that Oromos have been colonized and oppressed by the Amhara beginning in the late 19th century, but this is simply not the case. Oromo integration into Ethiopia began in the mid 18th century with Emperor Iyoas I, during which time Oromigna/Oromifa/Afaan Ormo/Oromo language was the language of the court in Gondar. After a period of 20 years of effective rule by Mikael Sehul, rule of Ethiopia reverted back to the Oromo (specifically the Yejju dynasty), beginning with Ras Ali I in 1779 and continuing until Ras Ali II in 1855, when he was defeated by Tewodros II. The Oromo Yejju dynasty consisted of Regents to the Emperor who, at that time (Zemene Mesafint - the age of the princes), was just a figurehead appointed by those who were truly in power (i.e. the Yejju for most of the period).

Yom

Oromo is a distinct language as well, is it not?

From what I've heard, the Oromos have historically been oppressed by the Amharas. Beyond that, I've still a lot to learn about these people.

Yes, Oromo is a distinct language; it is related to Somali. See Oromo language.

The Oromos have historically been oppressed (enslaved, denigraded), basically for being 'outsiders', which has been one of the main reasons for politicizing their ethnicity since the second half of the twentieth century. — mark ✎ 15:03, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As part Oromo and Amhara I can truthfully say your view Mark is very one sided, Oromo seperatist sided. Suffice it to say there is nothing definitve, even in Oromo oral history as to how we came to be in Ethiopia. But even in our oral history we recognize the conquest and enslavement of the peoples we came in contact with. At first there was no conflict. But Oromo as pastoralists needed the land which the farming communities of those we came in contact with used. So it led to inevitable conflict. It would have stayed a see-saw of conflict and probably did for a while until the 16th century Turkish Imperialist expansion into Ethiopia. Vast swathes of territory were denuded, as Ethiopian Christians were killed or captured and shipped to Arabia and Turkey as slaves. The territories were depopulated in the very first acts of Genocide against the population that Turkey would later on would undertake against armenians.

So the Oromo expansion into these lands and further was natural, filling in a vacuum until it met a resurgent Abyssinian Emperor in Galawdeos. But the resurge was not punitive. Thankfully the Emperor wanted peaceful co-existence, and did not kill or displace even those Muslim communities that had prospered greatly from traffic in Christian slaves. In fact they continued to illicitly traffic in slaves until the practice was not only made illegal by Tewodros IV but was enforced by executions under the reign of Menelik II.

My own family the Oromo chief's daughter fell in love with a slave(Mogassa) Amhara who her father then wed her to. I am not unique in this regard as Sidamo, and really any area of Ethiopia conquered by the Oromo is amply peopled by people like me. So your assertion that the Oromo were dispossessed begs the question of where they got the "possesion" of a land they were not in to begin with. IT is an interesting story and one that can do without polemics. Those preaching the "entitlement" route, be they Oromo or Amhara are clearly seeking political ground that is counter-peace. Any claims by Oromo's as to renaming places, can easily bring counter claims by the Amahara to even older names. So let's not go down that slippery slope. Debre-Zeit may be Bishoftu to the Oromo's but it was Imperial Bukom to the Amhara's of Amde Siyon in the 13th Century well before any Oromo presence that far north.

As you can tell, I am quite well versed in ALL my Ethiopian history, be it the Oromo, Amhara, Tigrean or otherwise. Its existence is testimony to a higher wisdom of tolerance not polemics. Zabya (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:17, 2 January 2010 (UTC).

An anonymous editor had twice replaced the "History" section with copyrighted material, then following reverts, deleted the original text. However, this person is correct in disputing the verifiability of the section, although the section was already flagged as lacking references. I have updated the tag in that section. I also posted the following comments to the anonymous user's talk page. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Your edit summary said:

(It is falsification (Somalia paragraf) and NOT a neutral Point of View. Whoever posted it wanted it to use here--> http://www.medrekforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=190349&highlight=wikipedia+somalia#190349)

This is a valid concern, but note that the section was already flagged for not citing its sources. I have updated the tag to {{TotallyDisputed-section}} in order to indicate that the section is in dispute. But please do not copy and paste text from elsewhere, and please don't delete the existing content. Also, the text in question had been that way for a while, I doubt that the person who quoted it on your message board is the same person who added it to the article (which has been an ongoing collaboration between many people). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)"

I have moved the following comments from the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Previous editor wrote: "The Oromo developed as a distinct political and ethnic group some time in the 16th century in what is now southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya, after having migrated from present-day Somalia. They came to the wider notice of the world when they invaded, and nearly overthrew, the Abyssinian christian monarchy (Ethiopia) in the late 1500s."

Yet it is quite amusing how some might find it simple to entertain the idea that the most populous ethnic group in East Africa and one of the largest in the whole African continent can spring about so late in history from a group of "pastorialist/nomadic" people. Oromos are descendents of the Kushites as their language implies. See Kush for a broader understanding of these people and their origin which most certainly wasn't Kenya, Tanzania or Madagascar. They speak a language that belongs to the Kushitic subgroup language of the Afro-Asiatic language group. Recent genetic study sheds more light on their relationship with the people in the horn and their probable history and location of their origin which by no means was as recent as implied in this article.

All that is below here here is highly disputed and far from sound. There are virtually no sources cited, yet this article is circulated throughout many Ethiopian discussion forums with participants that often tend to lean towards jingoism: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.3.103.143 (talk • contribs) 08:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't know where the idea The Oromo people "migrated from Somalia," or that they were "Nomads" Came from but whoever collaborated these information better get their Facts straight. Because if anything Somalians have migrated and descended from The Oromo people. Being that I am Oromo. And if you really need hard evidence please feel free to contact me. I have learned to trust the information on this site to be helpful in all my researches in the past, I am really not so sure anymore. This idea really sounds, familiar to the Abyssinian mind control-game that was played with the arousing of the Anti-Oromo development, which was set to enslave the Oromo people, being that they were the majority at the time, and still are today. This took place somewhere in around mid or late seventeenth century, and later the term "Gala' came about, which literally means ignorant, or brainless as means of degrading the Oromo people. And all of sudden the Oromo people did not belong to their Native Land, They were nomads who had migrate from the Indian Subcontinent. But The Oromo people in truth are Indigenous To Oromia, Even before Christianity and Islam had become an issue. This whole idea that the Oromo's had migrated to Ethiopia is complete B.S. and just another way of the Ethiopian rule to degrade one group of people. And I have a whole bloodline of FAMILY HISTORY TO PROVE IT, DATING BACK TO 6TH CENTURY AND ORAL HISTORY. I am really grateful that you have decided to inform the world of the Oromo people and their history, but I would trully appreciate it if it were what the Oromo consider themselves and their history. thank you. —the preceding comment is by Samiakahmed - 01:56, 13 March 2006: Please sign your posts!

Samiakahmed, Greetings. Please do not be so angry. I too am Ethiopian (but not Oromo), but I am in no way trying to place an external origin of Oromos. It angers me when others try to say that Ethiopians came from Yemen when really the evidence disagrees with their claims. As to the homeland of the Oromo people, I am not really sure, but it is most likely from the South or Southeastern area of modern Ethiopia. The Oromo are very much Ethiopian. I do not believe the term "Galla" means brainless (the term for that in Amharic would be ras yelem or angol yelem), but what I have read (from a pro-Oromo separatist source - Being and Becoming Oromo: Historical and Anthropological Enquiries) says that it comes from the Somali word for foreigner or stranger (though another source says that it is the word for infidel). Either way, it most certainly does not mean "brainless," but it is nevertheless pejorative and insulting in today's world. As to your bloodline, I wouldn't trust anything that (unless on paper) goes back farther than a few centuries, and probably not anything during Axumite time. My grandmother is supposedly related to Abreha, the 6th century general who conquered Yemen, but I severely doubt it (I only have my genealogy going back to around the 17th century, I think). Oral history could possibly preserve it, but the farther you go back, the less likely.

Regarding the origins of the Somalis, the Somali people article does indeed point to a Northwestern (Southeastern Ethiopia) origin.

I am happy to change the source of the Oromo (probably Southeastern Ethiopia, but possibly elsewhere in South, South-Central, or South-(slightly)Western Ethiopia), but you would have to provide a source that would point to their origin. Regards.

Yom 05:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

It's funny, to me at least, that one of the writers goes to claim that because the Oromo speak a cushitic language they are therefore the Cushites history refers to. How about the many other ethnic group that make the Cushite universe. What about the Nubians, Somali, Afar, and the Amhara themselves. He may want to redefine Amhara and Tigreans as Semites ruling cushites, but since this has been widely discredited(we are not all settlers from Arabia, thank God) is this a redefinition Amharans and Tigreans wish to accept. Specifically what is an Amhara, not accoring to what the OLF or some other terror alliance says but according to what has gone into making up this unique group of people. The answer may shock the writer who may be more Amhara than he realized. The two groups, Oromo and Amhara have since the 16th Century advent of the Oromo into what is now the northern part of Ethiopia constantly intermarried. There is a very distinct small minority of pure Oromo or pure Amhara, but by an large the stock that identifies itself as Oromo or Amhara at any one time depends either on politics, geography, language, or fear of reprisal rather than bloodlines. Zabya (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC).

Someone (205.210.232.62, possibly DES ^(talk)) has removed the sentence about Oromos migrating from present day Somalia. Now, I don't know whether or not that information is correct, but the editor left no information showing the converse or any explanation at all. Does anyone know anything as to the matter. My hunch is that they originally dominated South-eastern or South-central Ethiopia, but I could be wrong. Taddesse Tamrat posits (very tentatively) that the "Galla Homeland" (his wording, not mine) could be in SNNPR south of Lake Abaya and east of the Omo River (which seems doubtful to me), but he never actually vocalizes the guess, simply putting "Galla Homeland?" in that area on one of his maps of Medieval Ethiopia.

Yom 20:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Yom, Sorry for responding four years later :) but yes they did, as a source see both Mohammed Hassen's the Oromo's and Yilma Deressa's(Minister of Education during the rule of Emperor Haile Selassie I) Ethiopian History. The frist is easily obtainable online the second I am afraid is out of print and in Amharic :). But in essence Yilma Deressa, from a prominent Oromo Family, cites in exacting detail the various pressures the Oromo's experienced causing them to migrate from a settlement in Somalia southward to Kenya to escape persecuting and in search of grass for their cattle.

Once in Kenya they followed the river Omo into Ethiopia(hence the name Oromo meaning "Were=people or children of" the Omo, similar to the Were'Babo, Were'imenu, Were'Ilu) Were Omo is a regional reference not one for the entire experience of that people we can only collectively(some claim pejoratively) refer to as the Galla(I am part Galla).

Clashes were mostly restricted as the Imperial Army and regional troops was rampant and able to check their advances at first. The renowned General Hamelmal commanded the elite Jan Amora corps in at least two actions against Oromo invasions but was ordered to swiftly move north to engage Gragn's forces. Both his engagements with the Oromo army resulted in heavy casualties on both sides though his were more costly as the Jan Amora were amongst the most highly trained and equipped unit in the Empire. After the decimation of the Imperial army(it largely became a guerilla force with the notable exception of 4 armies concentrated around Emperor Lebna Dengel, Empress Eleni, Bahr Negash Yishaq and Abeto(Crown Prince) Fiqtor who would later die in action in Dawaro, Shoa 7th April 1539.

From then the Imperial Army was confined to fighting the Turkish invasion force of Ahmed Ibn Mohammed(Gragn)while the Oromo's advance only with token resistance from the communities and Army units they encountered.

Additionally the areas they advanced into had been denuded of populations which had either been massacred or shipped off as slaves to Arabia and Turkey by Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim(Gragn). Zabya (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC).

Wikipedia is suppose to be a balance informative source of info (well sourced). Now as oppose to a fan page of "notable Oromo people" where is the reference to irecha in the religious section? Long time ago I put it there to a video talking about the history of the festival, yet it is gone.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Infobox Images for Ethnic Groups. Gyrofrog (talk) 18:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}}) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

An image of Haile Selassie I is in both the infobox of this article and the one of the article Amhara people. Was he Oromo or Amhara? John of Lancaster (talk) 04:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Note that there's currently a discussion about these infobox images; see following section. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

I strongly suggest deleting Haile Selassie I, it is deceptive and misleading to put him as Oromo because he was an Amhara (predominantly). You cannot put someone as the icon of Oromo who has traces of Oromo heritage. Because he would now be "famous" Amhara, Famous Gurage, come on now, it is incorrect.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:19, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The image should not have in Haile, I think we should remove him and put in someone else.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Halaqah (talk • contribs) 17:54, 29 July 2011

I agree. If he was predominately Oromo, that would be one thing, but it really should also be sourced. There was a lengthy discussion about ethnic group infobox images in general (now archived; see here), which as far as I can tell was inconclusive. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

It is very dubious with ethnicity. And that shopping list of Oromo people looks like a pet project with zero encyclopedic value. But the image was a major violation for me because it is false info.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how Haile Selassie was not at least partially of Oromo ancestry when both his paternal and maternal grandfathers were apparently Oromo. Only his father's mother was Amhara; his maternal grandmother was Gurage. Thus, both of his parents were half-Oromo, making him as well mostly of Oromo extraction [1]: "To take one striking example: Emperor Haile Selassie's father's father was Oromo; his father's mother was Amhara: his mother's father was Oromo; and his mother's mother was Gurage" (also see [2]). Given this, perhaps, then, the image featuring Haile Selassie should be restored; albeit, with a paraphrase of the following qualification somewhere in the article [3]: "In a patrilineal society he would have been classed as Oromo, in a matrilineal one as Gurage; but to all intents and purposes he was Amhara, and it was his descent from his father's mother, a member of the Shoan royal house, that provided the genealogical basis for his claim to the Imperial throne." Middayexpress (talk) 00:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think this info and attribution belongs in the article, if it isn't already. As for the infobox images, I'm inclined toward keeping it simple and uncluttered; Middayexpress probably recalls me going on about this elsewhere (and see archived discussion to which I linked). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. That seems the most reasonable solution on both counts. Middayexpress (talk) 20:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

The issue with "mix heritage" as I hope you can see, . It can cause confusion.(hence why I see why you say add a note) because everyone is claiming him. Notable Amhara will have him, Notable Gurage will have him, Where does it end? I for one prefer people who are clearly Oromo. And in 100 years from now that might be no one but a few people in Arsi Negele.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 16:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Valid point. The problem with it, though, is that Haile Selassie was already included in the Amhara article's infobox as well; only he hasn't been removed from that page like he has been from this one. It's odd since, given his pedigree, the gentleman actually appears to be primarily of Oromo descent. The most logical and equitable solution therefore seems to be the one that I've proposed above. That is, to include him on all the relevant articles, with an explanatory note on his mixed ancestry and the genealogical line through which he was able to ascend to the Imperial throne. Middayexpress (talk) 20:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think if we have a note and multi references to his genology then it will be fine. (with the picture).--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Middayexpress (talk) 08:21, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Per the above, I've adjusted the infobox & added a note on Haile Selassie's mixed genealogical background. Middayexpress (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Note, I think I removed Haile because that was a non-free image. That image is here not critical, it is used an example of a person from the Oromo people (whether it is correct or not I'll leave as a beside) - if there are, and there are, free images available, then the non-free image is replaceable, and hence should not be used here. One could even argue that free images of Haile can be created, which means that those images then should be used. Please keep this in consideration as well, I hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The image of Haile Selassie that we're talking about is this public domain file [4], which was a part of a larger collage. Middayexpress (talk) 10:39, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I removed another one out of the list. Sorry for the confusion. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 10:39, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

No prob. Middayexpress (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Just an idea but I think we need a reference or a note so that people see the caveat regarding his ancestry. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 09:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

We can perhaps add a footnote beside his name in the infobox that links to a brief explanation of his mixed heritage. How does that sound? Middayexpress (talk) 09:37, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 09:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Great. Middayexpress (talk) 09:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. Middayexpress (talk) 09:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The subgroups section is unwieldy (by which I mean that it takes a couple of screens to scroll down the entire list), and has been tagged as such since March 2011. There are very few blue links among these items, and no sources for any of it. I propose paring down this list, in similar fashion to how we have handled this with articles in Category:Somali clans. However, I'm not sure what the threshold for inclusion should be. We faced a similar matter with those articles; you may view the relevant discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Somalia#Clan lineage, Category talk:Somali clans#RFC. Thank you. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I stumbled upon this article Oromo_Clan_Families which seems like it shares a lot of overlap I started looking at writing that out nicely, you might want to try this as a starting point? leaving the table collapse as a starting point making the page shorter, or change expand=true if you want it showing all the time. EdwardLane (talk) 11:49, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

That page you found, EdwardLane, appears to be intended as a fork of the clan/section list in this page. Someone is obviously upset that Wikipedia isn't covering the subdivisions of the Oromo people in sufficient detail -- yet beyond a certain degree of scale, groups are either not (currently) verifiable or not notable -- some groups are little more than families. I'm going to delete that article if no one hear speaks up. -- llywrch (talk) 18:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with llywrch. In a word, WP:CONTENTFORK. Perhaps even WP:POVFORK: they kept the infobox and census references from this article, but changed the actual population figures. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:17, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I didn't notice that, which is a typical stunt that I've seen countless times. :-( I guess the moment I saw that citation to forced migration online, I knew it was a cut-n-paste job & didn't need to look further. -- llywrch (talk) 22:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Well that's all cool - the only reason I stumbled upon the page was the Nabro eruption reported deaths in the Bidu (woreda) and searching for bidu brought up that page. EdwardLane (talk) 09:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

August 2011 update

I have merged Oromo Clan Families to this article. The content in that list that did not overlap with Oromo people#Sub groups was unsourced, and so in a practical sense, there was actually very little content to merge. The list in this article still needs some serious pruning (and sourcing). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Is the list of famous Oromo not getting out of hand? For one it should be reduced to people who have a wikipedia page. i.e. notable enuff to have a wiki page. It cannot go on forever else 50% of Ethiopia will end up on the list.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I had tagged it with {{Cleanup-laundry}}. Someone (as you noticed) had added Teddy Afro, whose article does not mention his ethnicity, much less specify that he is Oromo. If we're going to have such a list at all, then we need to indicate that people actually belong in the list. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I think we should clean it down. I guess I didnt check but I just shouted to my wife "Is teddy Oromo?" and she said "yes", so I added the link to the previous user addition. Is that a reliable source LOL.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 18:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Are we sure this is what the Oromo do in Ethiopia. I know some Surma people do it, not sure Oromo do this. And 100% in Bruce Parry film it was not Oromo running over the back of bulls.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 07:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a collapsible thing we can use? It would serve this section well. I mean people need to scroll through all of that list???? It is structurally a problem for a article making it long for no good reason. I will see about a collapsible spree type do flicky. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 07:45, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, there are the {{hidden begin}} and {{hidden end}} templates, for example. However, this doesn't address the issue of what to include in the list. It sweeps it under the rug, so to speak. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I kind of like the "Sweep it under the rug" for the time being idea. I am not a fan of shopping list. and this one spoils the article. I like the show hide thing where you click and it behaves like a spry accordian. But I think that requires a lot of work [5] where we just dump all the content in it and close it. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 18:00, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I included the two most important points from the EB1911 entry—the previously ubiquitous English use of the Amharic exonyms "Galla" and "Galla-land". I know Ethiopian ethnicity is a fraught issue, but kindly don't remove prominent mention of them, given that period sources invariably used those names.

There's more at the article to add (the traditional religion, customs, &c.), although obviously be careful with the dated or even bigoted ("Negro blood") bits. — LlywelynII 04:37, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Someone had removed "(pejoratively termed Galla)" from the introductory sentence, I'm guessing because the name is, indeed, pejorative. I think it should still be included in the article - to this date there are still a lot references that use the term (hopefully out of ignorance) and because of this, many readers might not realize that the term is now considered offensive. Unfortunately, now that I've explained the name in slightly more detail in the article, it accounts for at least half of the text in the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 6 July 2005 01:24 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing that the word "Galla" to refer to Oromos is a very pejorative term which I can say is similar to saying "Negro", although not the same in meaning. I do come from the Oromo ethinic group and would like to thank you for putting the truth out there.

Oromo

I thought the term "Galla" was derived from the fact that the Oromo people are traditionally (and many still are) camel herders. "Galla", at least in Boran/Gabbra is the word for camel. Some people from other tribal groups looked down on pastoralists as a lower class, hence this being used as a pejorative term. Perhaps the "nomenclature" section of the article needs to be changed, or am I incorrect? Whitelab (talk) 13:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The term for camel in Borana-Oromo is "gala" and not "galla". Lengthening of a consonant is an important feature in that language. And, there are only some areas where Oromo keep camels: in the eastern lowlands around Mieso, in eastern Bale and Arsi, in the area of upper Awash, and in Wello (but they only buy them from Afars there).Driss (talk) 11:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

well Galla mean in somali non-muslim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.134.67 (talk) 00:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Galla is not pejorative.

The term has its origin in the answer the Oromo invasion force gave to the Turkish General Ahmed Grqagn when he asked them to aid his efforts. The Messenger he sent in response to Genreal's question "Ga' Le ?" "What say they ?" responded, "Ga 'La", "They said NO". Theron the Oromo referred to themselves as "Ga 'La" i.e. the one's who refused. It was a key reason why after his defeat of their invasion forces Ethiopian Emperor Galawdeos in the 16th century allowed them to settle rather than wholesale massacre enslavement, which is what they had done to the people they had conquered before them. Though they did not ally with Gragn they did enslave and sell their prisoners to the Somali's and to Gragn who in turn used the proceeds from slave sales to fiund his purchase of more cannons and firearms. They were forgiven their actions by a noteworthy gracious emperor and allowed to settle in LANDS THAT WERE NOT OURS. So we can not claim in later years to having been "dispossed" of territory that was never ours or claim to be insulted of a name we gave ourselves. This is a political ploy to create an issue out of nothing, and in fact out of a history that is so injurious to Christians reminding them of how they lost roughly 1/3 of their population to enslavement. Zabya (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:16, 2 January 2010 (UTC).

I think it is better if you keep your myth to yourself instead of posting on Wikipedia. It is disgraceful when people join Wikipedia to write hatred and fabricated stories. But that is the true nature Abesha people. Tumsaa (talk) 10:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The most senseless thing is putting H/sillasie as an Oromo. He never considered himself an Oromo for a single day, and he assumed power as an Amhara. He constantly drafted proclamations that oppressed the Oromo people including not to use their language in any public place (churuch, court, school, etc). He closed the only Oromo civic organization Mecha and Tulama and killed and imprisoned its leaders. He considered himself a member of Solomonic dynasty which has been propagated by church for thousands of years. And obviously, the Oromo has nothing to do with that. Please, I kindly request to change the picture. Also I see that most of the people in the picture are government officials except Tilahun Gessese. Why don't you include people from other professions like athlets, scientists (there are few like Dr Gebisa), religious leaders, freedom fighters, etc. Diversify the picture. Tumsaa (talk) 16:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Please see here. Middayexpress (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you think it is reasonable to include his picture in an article about people he didn't associate himself with at all? Can't we put pictures of people who are not contentious regarding their ethnic background? This is like including Hitler's picture in an article about Jews (not to that degree but it is similar). Can you tell me why Ras Makonnen (Haila Silassie's father) is included here instead of the famous Abebe Bikila or Lij Iyasu or Kenenisa Bekele for example? Tumsaa (talk) 05:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not at all the same because both of Haile Selassie's paternal and maternal grandfathers were Oromo, and he sure associated with his family. At any rate, I've put Lij Iyasu and Sophia Bekele as well. Middayexpress (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Good move but not enough. My first argument is, the pictures in the infobox should show persons the Oromo consider as their icon as far as I understand. But, if you talk to any Oromo, no one will ever mention Haile Silassie or Ras Mekonnen as an Oromo icon. Instead, they are the peoples Oromo consider as its oppressors and colonizers. Putting the very people Oromo see as its oppressors/colonizer as Oromo's icon is a contradiction. If you ask me who are the people considered as Oromo icon by the Oromo: Abebe Bikila, Tadesse Birru, king Abba Jifar, Kenenisa Bekele, Ali Birra, Derartu Tulu, Tirunesh Dibaba, Onesimos Nesib, Bakri Sapalo, Waqo Gutu, the list goes on. Besides, including Ras Mekonnen (H/Silassie's father) and Haile silassie makes it look like a family article instead of an ethnic group consisting more than 25 million population. I suggest putting Negasso Gidada, former Ethiopian president, instead if you are looking for high ranking government officials. Regarding Sophia Bekele too, I have doubts. Do you have any information that she is an Oromo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tumsaa (talk • contribs) 08:55, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Most of those personalities don't have available copyright free images. Even if they did, that wouldn't make Emperor Haile Selassie or his father, Ras Makonnen, Governor of Showa, any less ethnically Oromo. I realize that some individual Oromos may take exception to his reign, but many others don't. Haile Selassie was obviously also well aware of his Oromo ancestry. His wife was Oromo and he spoke Oromiffa in private [6]. I believe Sophia Bekele Eshete is Oromo as well; she has the same last name as Alemayehu Eshete, who is from Jimma. If not, there's always Empress Menen Asfaw. Middayexpress (talk) 19:49, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Few corrections: Ras Mekonnen was a governor of Harar, not Shoa. Secondly, according to the information I have, Alemayehu Eshete was born in Wollo, not in Jimma. his family then moved to Addis Ababa where he grew up. Alemayehu Eshete is not an Oromo. I also have no information indicatiing the Sophia Bekele is an Oromo or if she is related to Alemayehu Eshete. Regardin Haile Sillasie, it is true that he speaks Oromiffa because he grew up in Harar living among the Oromos because his father was governor of Harar. But saying he speaks Oromiffa at home looks absurd. How can a man who speaks Oromiffa at home drafts a law to prevent the use of the language at any public places? Read one of the law here. Speaking the language does not make you member of that ethnic group (e.g. I speak English, but I am not British). The book whose link you put above looks like an apologist for crimes commited in Ethiopia by ruling Amharas for a century. Such books couldn't be a good source of objective information. Read Ras Mekonnen's (H/sillasie's father) article to understand that he is from Amhara ethnic group. Of people's I listed above, there are some who have public domain pictures like Tadesse Birru, Abebe Bikila, Derartu Tulu, Kenenisa Bekele, Tirunesh Dibaba, and Mikael of Wollo. Empress Menen Asfaw is ok I guess. Tumsaa (talk) 12:19, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I meant to say Governor of Harar; it was Ras Makonnen's mentor Menelik that was initially Governor of Showa. That said, Haile Selassie was not Oromo merely because he spoke the language in private. He was Oromo because most of his ancestors were ethnically Oromo, obviously. That opinion piece above cannot change this, nor does it mention Haile Selassie. At any rate, since Sophia Bekele's ethnic background is uncertain, I've replaced her with the Oromo Empress Menen Asfaw. Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:00, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I can't understand why you are simply trying to impose. I have tried to reason out that Haile Silassie was and is never considered as an Oromo icon by a single Oromo, rather the opposite. If the people themselves don't see it as such, why you are insisting? Also, the list is entirely made up of ruling classes with exception of Tilahun. For example, why is Abebe Bikila not included? Do you think people know Ras Mekonnen better than Abebe Bikila or Kenenisa Bekele or Derartu Tulu? Tumsaa (talk) 13:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with Kenenisa Bekele. He's already in the body alongside Maryam Yusuf Jamal; two Oromo athletes, one of each gender, is sufficient I think. I'm also already aware of how you feel on Haile Selassie. However, that doesn't change the fact that he was ethnically Oromo, spoke Oromo in private, had Oromo in-laws, and is acknowledged as an important figure by many Oromos today. Ras Makonnen was likewise a historically important Oromo and Ethiopian figure. He was also a Governor, not an Emperor like Lij Isayu and Haile Selassie. Middayexpress (talk) 20:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

"He acknowledged as an important figure by many Oromos today". Do you have Oromo friends or are you Oromo yourself? Give me the source for this statement. The other thing, if you believe two athletes are more than enough, why is five of the six photos is of governers and you believe it is not a problem? Forget about my feelings, we are not discussing personal feelings here. I am simply trying to shape the article about Oromo people into one that portrays them in the right perspective, which it currently is not (looking at the pictures foremost). Tumsaa (talk) 15:54, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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A discussion thread about the reliability and notability of this author and his pages is taking place at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Owen 'Alik Shahadah, please comment there so we can get a final consensus. Rupert Loup (talk) 12:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: You need to be much more specific and not discuss other articles, just this one. As you seem to think a travel guide is a good source, I think you may need to read WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. Deleting the material on history/origins seems to be a violation of WP:NPOV, how do you justify the deletion? And please don't discuss other articles, if you think they need fixing go to them and fix them. Meanwhile you've now had a 3rd opinion and should leave things as they are until you can get consenses. As an Arbitrator myself I can say that this isn't the sort of case we would take, we don't deal with content disputes. Doug Weller talk 09:44, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The url for that didn't work for me but in any case the site is a travel site and my guess is that it keeps a copy of an article in violation of copyright. @EthiopianHabesha:, did you actually read the source. I really want an answer to this question.

But that's not the biggest problem, the real problem is the article itself, which needs updating. See this] by an acknowledged expert in the field. Doug Weller talk 09:48, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, the thing is she added a lot of information in which I have disagreement and that travel site is not one of them. I have no opposition if she can remove the source and the content added based on that source. Of the many issues I have with her edit I begun with the importance of information added that has got to do with stereotypes associated with ethnic name. I do have many specific issues but not to complicate the discussion I preferred to settle with this issues first before I proceed with the other specific issues I have with the content she added, modified and deleted. The response I wanted from her is either to say NO or Yes it is important to mention how ethnic groups are perceived by their neighbours or by past European writers for X and Y reason so that we have a very transparent discussion and reach consensus on the matter, and if that is not possible then probably invite more editors to give opinions as to her reasoning for supporting the inclusion of such kind of information on ethnic group pages. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:15, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: This is the wrong section, this is about the calendar. I still have no idea what you are trying to say because you aren't specific enough. Start a new section, place the material you dispute in the new section and specific reasons based on our policies why you don't like it. Doug Weller talk 14:32, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I was responding to the question i.e. not related to Borana calendar you asked me in this section. I have explained my issues above in detail on why I am reverting Ms Sarahs edit with several posts by giving examples. The issue in a nutshell is that Ms Sarah added stereotypes such as Pagan, Heathen, Barbarian in this article (you may search these words in the article) and my question for her is what is the importance of adding such kind of stereotypes that were also associated to all African tribes by past European writers here in this and other African tribes article. That is my issue for now, it is very simple question and perhaps you can give me your 3rd opinion by saying No or Yes it is important to add them here for X and Y reason. And from that we can begin a transparent discussion. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:58, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

This section is about the calendar only. Doug Weller talk 16:27, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

I think this needs a bit more than the cursory mention. Hassen discusses it in some detail.[7] Doug Weller talk 15:55, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:08, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

(copied from my talk page, so everyone can participate for collaboration - MSW)

Hi, I want to discuss about your recent edit on Oromo people. Many of the sources you used are from Oromo nationalist writers. I am a citizen of Ethiopia with 100 million people (with over 25% of the population fit for fighting to any local/intl ideology) and with over 80 ethnic-groups/languages as well as diverse religions (40% Orthodox, 33% Islam (With some Salafi/Wahabi followers), 20% Protestant), and for these reasons am very much concerned with peace in my home country and in the region as a whole. The tone you used to add content is based on nationalists who paraphrase out of context and who do not use impartial/balanced tone to write their books. Personally, I avoid all writers from the region (be it Amhara, Oromo, Tigray, Somali etc) and rely on writers who donot have political interest in the region but write books only to share knowledge by taking all historical documents fairly without prejudice. To show you how the regions writers paraphrase out of context please see the Eritrea wikiedia page [3] in which one writer with PHD degree named Yohanis Okbazghi paraphrasing out of context of James Bruce statment. While James Bruce in his own book published in 1805 said Medri Bahri/Bahrenegash (Highlands of presentday Eritrea) was part of Tigre province of Abyssinia Okbazghi said Medri Bahri was independent which fought with Abyssinia constantly, and he did this intentionally to promote Eritrean independence from Ethiopia. See this is how the regions nationalists manipulate history for their own agenda (to create resentment/hate between people and for their secessionist agenda). Please note that all African tribes were in hostile relation before 19th century and if we want to see a distablised African continent (with over 2,000 languages spoken and to create 2,000 ethnic countries) then we could write in every tribes wikipedia page saying your neighbouring tribes used to call you this and that, they have this and that stereotypes on you, you used to fight with them and they used to sell you into slave markets etc etc. Please note that it is those kind of sterotypes that led into Rwanda Genocide. Also note that there are Portugese eye witnesses, like Jao Bermudes, who came to help the Christians against Gragn Mohamed in 16th centuary who also fought with the Oromo expansionist and I don't see the importance of telling his graphic description of the Oromo warfare system in all the affected tribes of Horn of Africa in their Wikipedia page. It is for these reasons I am reverting your edit. Thank you —EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I appreciate your concerns. However, as you know, wikipedia is not a place to accuse professors based in the USA or Europe or Africa or elsewhere, or peer reviewed articles by scholars of being "nationalist writers". We also can't accept unsourced/OR-filled articles, like the way this article has been (even if under your watch). Content that was cited, I have checked and where appropriate, I removed WP:Copyvio and reworded to better match what the source is actually stating. We must seek balance per WP:NPOV, for all sides. You mention Eritrea wikipedia page above, to explain your concerns, but frankly that is not relevant here. If you point out specific scholarly sources I have added, and then express your concerns, I will work with you to collaboratively improve this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

(ps) To help our discussion, I will list some of the numerous sources I added. What is your concern with these scholarly publications: [1] Encyclopedia of Africa. Oxford University Press; [2] The Political Economy of an African Society in Transformation. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag; [3] Peoples of South-west Ethiopia and its Borderland, International African Institute, Routledge; [4] The Origins of the Galla and Somali, The Journal of African History; [5] A History of Ethiopia: Volume II (Routledge Revivals): Nubia and Abyssinia, Routledge; [6] Some records of Ethiopia, 1593-1646, being extracts from the history of High Ethiopia or Abassia (Series: Oromo Peuple d'Afrique), Kraus Nendeln; [7] Being and Becoming Oromo: Historical and Anthropological Enquiries, Nordic Africa Institute; [8] Greater Ethiopia: The Evolution of a Multiethnic Society, University of Chicago Press; etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:03, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, my issue is with the importance of information added. For instance there are so many reliable sources written by past European scholars calling all African tribes using very deamning and derogatory terms telling how African tribes were heathen, savage & barbarians. I have seen many European reliable documents which can be used to add content here in wikipedia saying all Ethiopians including Chrstians as barbarian & savage people who needs to be civilised. I don't see the importance of adding those information in all African tribes wikipedia page. If we go to Zulu tribe wikipedia page we don't see content saying Europeans used to refer Zulu people as heathen and savage people or if you go to Amhara page you also don't see content saying a book writen by X European writer referring Amhara people as barbarian & savage people (though there is reliable document written by Euoropeans saying Amharas including their priests are barbarians). Ms Sarah, my question for you is what is the importance of adding such kind of information? and if such kind of information should be added here then why should we not add similar information in all over 2,000 African tribes wikipedia page i.e. we should also add content saying "Zulu, Xhosa, Kikuyu, Masay, Nubian, Ashanti, Amhara, Oromo, Somali, Hutu, Tutsi etc tribes were heathen, barbarian & savage human species according to X European writer published before 1950s"? In regards to relation between African tribes you go everywhere and there is positive and negative stereotypes and what is the importance of adding those stereotypes in wikipedia pages? Why shouldnt we just write about the government systems i.e. if there is any system that discriminated people from government bureaucracy then we should focus on that. For instance, Aparthide is a government system that discriminated people based on their biology and this topic might be important information to add on Zulu people wikipedia page while not adding the stereotypes white people have on Zulu black people like how they used to OR are still calling them heathen, barbarian & savage people in public or in secret in their house. In Ethiopia there was no government system that discriminated people based on their biology as there were people with Oromo blood (Ras Ali, Ras Gugsa, Emperor Haileselase....) who effectively ruled Amhara & the rest of Ethiopian people. There are also people with slave background (like Habtegyorgis Dinagde who doesnot have any Amhara blood) who was appointed by Menelik as acting primeminister & warminister whom later became the king maker after Menelik's death and who allowed Haileselase to be the next king. Menelik's mother is also a slave and also Mengistu Hailemariam's father was a slave from Nilotic (Shankella) people and no government system prevented them from ruling Ethiopian people (including Amhara people) unlike the Aparthide system where a person with one black ancestry was not allowed to rule the black majority country (South Africa) and black people were not allowed to marry/date white people by law/government system. For your info I don't belong to Amhara or Tigray ethnic-group but just concerned about peace in my home country. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:47, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: So you do not have issue with reliability of the sources I have added, and you have identified no specific issues. Instead you mention "Aparthide [sic] is a government system that..." etc. Please see WP:COMPREHENSIVE and WP:TALK. The quality of other wikipedia articles is not relevant here (fwiw, other Africa and non-Africa related wiki articles do summarize these issues, see Kongo people, Beti people, Apartheid, Armenians etc). The old version you have reverted to grossly misrepresents Oromo people, their origins, their society etc and violates wikipedia content guidelines/policies. The old version is POV-y and OR. It uses sources such as Lonely Planet Tourist guide for history/origins, then misrepresents even that Lonely Planet source. The old version does not summarize the reliable sources. It has claims that flatly misrepresent what WP:RS state, such as Oromo origins in the southern tip of Ethiopia and migrated into their current locations because of "great trade". You have removed scholarly sources and returned blogs/websites as source or OR for Gadda/Religions/Calendar section. Please don't do this. If you read this revised version which you keep removing carefully, and the sources I have added, you will see that I have made effort to keep the balance for Oromo and non-Oromo sides. If you identify WP:RS that other editors and I have not considered, you can (or I can help you) add a summary from them to improve the article further. Since you are edit warring, I will request one or two admins who watch Africa-space articles to intervene/guide us here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:52, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, my issues is regarding to the reliablity of the sources you used as well the importance of information added. I have many specific issues on the content you added but the issue is you have edited so much that my opinion is we discuss issues paragraph by paragraph before you edit. I have seen one administrator recommending for edit warring editors "first discuss then edit". As per wiki rule BRD please we discuss first then we add those ones we both agree with and in those areas we have disagreement then we can request 3rd opinion, rfc request, dispute resolution and then may be finally take it to arbitration. Wikipedia is edited by consensus and by collaboration and that if any editor opposes other editors work then he can go into all these dispute resolution process. Based on wiki rule which state that even if a content is sourced by reliable sources their importance can be questioned and discussed to reach consensus and that the sources used can also be discussed if they qualify WP:QS and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Among several issues I have (most I have not explained them yet so that we solve one issue at a time) with your edit I have discussed one of them above in detail i.e. your use of stereotypes regarding how the people are perceived by their neighbours and I have given example above if it is appropriate to add past European writers (those writers before 1920s) writing with their stereotype on African tribes being pagan, heathen, barbarian & savage people. Ms Sarah, you have added such stereotypes (pagan, heathen, barbarian, bad people) in this article and you have not answered my question above I forwarded to you as to weather you think it is appropriate to add such kind of stereotypes. If you think it is appropriate then why should we not add such negative stereotypes used by Europeans in the past on Zulu, Masay, Nubian, Amhara, Hutu, Tutsi, Muslims.... in every pages of tribes of Africa because it can be supported by reliable published sources (if requested I can bring those old books here)?? Once we solve this issue I can proceed to the other issues I have with your edit. Thank you — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 07:19, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: We must discuss their name Galla because [1] Galla is the predominant term in the early and pre-20th century literature, [2] the first known use of word Oromo to refer to these people is in 1893 (even then the Oromo word remained infrequent for many decades, only slowly did it gain wider acceptance), [3] we can't pretend that Oromo people did not exist or were not written about before, [4] Galla is discussed in numerous reliable scholarly secondary and tertiary sources on Oromo people. According to WP:NPOV, "neutrality means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". The problems of our world do not go away by censorship. Please read and reflect on WP:CENSOR. If you study the sources I have cited you will see there is lot more on Galla and the historic demeaning/persecution of the Oromo people, and I have already toned it down to the essentials while respecting "use plain language" and "what is directly verifiable in the reliable sources" guideline. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:04, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, you could just say previously they are referred by X name on past literatures written before 1970s, however, what is the importance of adding stereotypes associated with ethnic name here? There are negative stereotypes and perceptions associated with the name Amhara, Gurage, Tigray, Zulu, Masay, Hutu and all other African tribes by Europeans or by their neighbouring tribes and what is the point of adding them in wikipedia pages? Instead, why not just focus on government sponsored segregation/discrimination system if there is any? In Somalia Bantu-Somalis were not allowed to be clan lords/leaders of the majority cushitic Somalis and not allowed to marry/integrate with the cushitic Somalis and this is some form of state & social sponsored discrimination & segregation and probably this might be mentioned with in their respective pages while leaving the stereotypes and negative perceptions held by the cushitic Somalis on Bantu-Somalis. Aparthide might also be mentioned in SA black tribes because it is a state sponsored discrimination/segregation in which black people were not allowed to lead the black majority nation & not allowed to marry/date/integrate with whites by law/system. On the other hand there is no such similar law/system in Ethiopia and infact the Oromo lords like Ras Ali, Ras Gugsa, Emperor Haileselase & his wife Empress Menen, Negus Mikael Ali, Habtegyorgis were lords of Amhara & the rest of Ethiopians who also were on top of the government & social system of Ethiopia, moreover in the old literatures these lords are refereed by their old name as can be seen here [8]. In this source here [9] Henry Salt (Egyptologist) (A European who travelled in the region by 1809) said that the Amhara division of Abyssinia (i.e. Gondar, Gojam, Wallo) was entirely in the possession of the Galla, and he is talking about the Yejju Oromo tribe whom their dynasty began by an Oromo chief called Abba Seru Gwangul whom his descendants continued to be lords of Amhara people upto 1850s and after death of Tewodros Yohanis, Menelik & Haileselse allowed descendants of the Yejju Oromo tribe to be lords of Gondar Amhara Province even after 1930s. As I said earlier before 19th centuary all African tribes were in continuous clan wars for resource competition and every tribe will raid his neighbours (even if they speak same language & same religion) to acquire cattle, slaves, for ritual requirement and Donald Levine concludes here as to how the region was before 19th centuary — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: The sources you just provided merely confirm what I noted above. No, we can't just leave it as "previously they are referred by X name on past literatures written before 1970s" that you suggest. The obvious question in the reader's mind is why Galla name for a long time, why Oromo name now, why the change? Reliable sources discuss this. So must this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: This is not a case WP:IMPARTIAL or WP:ADVOCACY as you allege in this latest edit comment, because the summary is accurate and NPOV as explained above. I have met the WP:ONUS / WP:DUE guideline because the article must present "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." The "Galla" and "Oromo" discussion is prominent in numerous WP:RS, and a summary belongs in this article. If you can't understand these wikipedia guidelines, you should seek help at WP:TEAHOUSE and avoid editing / warring in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Welch is correct, we should deal with the issue of the name change. The article doesn't use the word barbarian by the way.

The quote messaging savage is from a book by Mohammed Hassen[10] who was quoting another writer:"Gadaa Melbaa has noted that 'the Abyssinians attach a derogatory connotation to the Galla, namely "pagan, savage, uncivilized, uncultured, enemy, slave or inherently inferior"' Although Melbaa is a pseudoynm, Melbaa's book and Hassen's comments are discussed here by Oromo specialist Professor Asafa Jalata [11]. These are reliable sources by our criteria.

I'd like a source for the quote using the word "heathen", which seems in this context to mean non-Muslim. Doug Weller talk

@Doug Weller: Indeed, will do. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, When choosing sources you have to be carefull because there are also writers who write for their own agenda such as for ethnic nationalism, secionism, advocacy, propaganda, divide and rule etc and the source you use must not be questionable and exceptional for exceptional claim as per wiki rule WP:QS, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:ONUS and WP:IMPARTIAL. Why would I take one source saying people with Oromo blood didnot have any place in Ethiopian government when the fact is the Oromos were on top of the system, when they also conquered Amhara people, taxed Amhara peasants/serfs and when they were actually lords of Amhara people. Since articles need to be neutral (not advocating for ethnic nationalists) there are also reliable sources saying Oromos being lords of Amhara people and what should we do about these sources? not include them? You have removed the content which says "The grand son of the Tigrayan Emperor Yohanis kissing the feet of the Oromo Lij Eyasu Mikael Ali Aba Bula before arresting him" and based on wiki rule NPOV then this information is also important, why do you delete it? Why do you want people to get only what ethnic nationalists are saying i.e. Oromos inferior when they were also masters of Amhara & Tigrayan people as recorded by history which is also another fact Oromo children should know? By the way Which specific source and page number did you use to add the ethnic stereotypes? I may need that source to be reviewd by other editors if it i qualifies under WP:QS and WP:EXCEPTIONAL. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Instead of these lectures, identify additional specific reliable source(s) on "Galla and Oromo" whose summary would improve this article. I would welcome that. On the rest, don't accuse me or any other wiki editor about doing something without edit-diffs. That "kissing the feet" etc part is still in the article, see the last line for example, of this tagged section. We can discuss that in a separate talk page section. Let us focus on Galla and Oromo nomenclature here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: No, sources do not have to be neutral. It appears that you don't understand NPOV or WP:RS, or perhaps any of the links. And it isn't up to editors to decide who is an ethnic nationalist. Question - which sources do you think fail WP:QS? We are really getting nowhere here. Doug Weller talk 19:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, I was giving you alternative information, written by writers whom I believe are neutrals, that contradict with your view (because your view does influnce on how you edit) as per Wiki rules urging editors to reach consensus and collaborate to edit wikipedia articles. This is why I am bringing all these examples & sources and I am not trying to lecture anyone, please discuss with respect. As for the "kiss the feet" it is because you mentioned about it in the edit summary here [12] saying "we need to focus on Oromo people not "kissed X's feet before arresting him"" meaning you want that phrase be excluded while you support the addition of ethnic stereotypes i.e. how the people were perceived by neighbours or Europeans in the past and in present instead of making the article focus on social & government sponsored systems if there is any applied on people with Oromo ancestry in general (like Apartheid & Indian Caste social system with the untouchables in the bottom of the caste system who still today exist) that discriminated people by their tribe and class background from equally participating in the economy & political leadership of a nation. The sources I provided above shows clearly people with Oromo blood being on top the government, economy, military & social system of the nation. It is upto to you to accept or deny these facts but that is what the history book is saying. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:15, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I checked the sources placed next to the phrase containing ethnic stereotypes and not Sure which specific source Ms Sarah used to add them, asked her above from which specific source & page number it is found and am waitin for her response. I went though the links found in the sources and did not find them there. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:27, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: The specific sources are cited in Origins section (reference [5] and [11]-[24]), with specific page numbers, in this version of this article. If you can't locate or understand them, please get help from WP:RX and WP:TEAHOUSE. On rest, please stop being vague and disruptive with your tendentious arguments. You have alleged WP:QS. You have been asked to support your allegation by providing specifics, yet you don't. Please identify the specific source or page number(s) you have issues on "Galla and Oromo" related content. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:20, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, instead of personal attack why don't you just address the issues I raised? And Pls don't remind me to join Tea house on your every post because I know how wikipedia works. My issue is very simple to understand which has got to do with the importance of information added that needs to get consensus as per wiki rule WP:ONUS which states that verifiablity does not guarantee inclusion, and as per wiki rule WP:BRD which states that editors need to collaborate & discuss before editing how is it difficult to wait for our discussion to be over and wait for other editors from wikipedia Africa project & TAD give their opinion? You cannot force as to accept only your edit & say you cannot modify my edit and keep on resisting to accept others opinion and contributions because that would be against what Wikipedia stands for. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:05, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I can't address your vague issues and confusion. Neither WP:QS nor WP:ONUS applies here. For reasons, please see @Doug Weller's comment above on Galla and Oromo. Go ahead try WP:ANI or Project Africa etc. Meanwhile, you misunderstand WP:BRD. It does not imply a right for you to edit war with multiple editors to revert any wikipedia article to a version that is unsourced or travel guide etc sourced content because it matches your personal opinions / prejudices / wisdoms. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Reason why I keep on reverting was explained above in detail even by providing examples and has got to do with the content you added and it is not to restore the content you said is sourced by a travel site. Even if you have issues with the source used you could have tagged it citation needed and or better source is needed, and if your issues is with the content then you could have said I don't agree with it because of X & Y reason then probably I might search better sources and try to improve the article by discussion & consensus instead of you keep on insisting to apply only your version. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, there is this better source defining the ethnic name in detail with 35 books mentioning the work in Google books [13] and quoted in google search 564 times [14]. I read the research paper and the way the writer presented his research is in a balanced tone and included various researchers view. Here are some quotations extracted from the research:

1) Dr. Ludwig Krapf states that this word (Galla) means "to go home," and Miss A. Wernher has recently suggested the Galla words of farewell Agum ngalla corroborates this statement.

2) Abyssinians however derive the Galla from an Abyssinian lady of rank who was given in marriage to a slave from Gurague to whom she bore seven sons who became dreaded robbers and the founders of tribes inhabiting the country about the river Galla whence they took their name.

3) Moslem tradition has it that Galla are Meccan Arabs who settled on the East Coast of Africa during the Wakt-el-Jahiliveh, or Time of Ignorance, and that their name is derived from the reply of Ullabu, their Chief, to the summons of the Phophet calling on the tribe to accept Al-Islam, the messenger returning stated " He said ' No ' " (Gha la) — an example of the Moslem love of philological analogy.

4) It is interesting, however, to note the similarity between the Galla word for both God and Sky, Wak, and the idol Wak of the pre-islamic pantheon at Mecca, of which the Kaaba alone survives; and again the Galla legend of a Kitab or Holy Book, to the loss of which they ascribe the fallen fortunes of their race. The Galla themselves aver that in the beginning of their history they crossed a great sea or lake, the Bed Sea. A story of kingship and a coronation feast is told, and women, as in the early history of Arabia, have held princely rank.

5) Probably those Galla whose southward route lay near the East Coast of Africa and who are now found along the Tana Eiver and in the neighbourhood of Witu are correctly described by Dr. Krapf as " more primitive " than those of Abyssinia whom he met during his activities there between 1838 and 1842, in that they are the relicts of the early migrants and had little contact with the races of Abyssinia. Incidentally Dr. Krapf, himself a German, described the Galla as the '- Germans of Africa."

The whole of the reserch can be seen here [15]

Therfore, as can be seen above and as researched by a neutral researcher named Barton,C. Juxon the meaning of Galla have different meanings and if we must discuss the meaning in this article then we need to include all these meanings as per wiki rule NPOV, and if we cannot include them all may be just leave all definitions all together and say simply "the name Galla has different definitions and that after 1970s it was no more used because it was a name applied on Oromos by neighbouring people". — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Barton's paper is from September 1924, which is dated to be WP:HISTRS. Any way, I have summarized it as well for now. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:56, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: As you state that Barton is a neutral researcher, you must know his biographical details. Could you please share them with us? Thanks. Doug Weller talk 12:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, firstly I have seen his work and the way he presented his research is to just share knowledge and not to make one tribe victim & innocent and demonise other tribes as some writers write with political agenda. Secondly, his name shows that he is not from the Horn region. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, we need consensus as to which source we should take for the translation of the term 'Galla', Barton,C. Juxon or Mohamed Hassan as per WP:ONUS? Mohamed Hassan for the translation of the name is quoting a writer called Kesete Tesema Berhan in his book page 3 and my search for this writer under google book & google search is as follows [16][17] which shows that the quoted work is not notable. We have to choose between notable work i.e. of Barton,C. Juxon against a research that is not notable and not quoted by well known historians. Note that the way you added the content is by saying "the name Galla is translated....." therefore Barton,C. Juxon was focusing on the translation of the term Galla while Mohamed Hassan & the other writers he quoted were focusing on stereotypes associated with ethnic name. To translate let say the term India we say India is a term that was used by Greeks after modifying the word Hindu and Hindu is a Persian word derived from the Sanskrit word Sindhu used to refer Indus river[18] but you can not translate the term India by the negative stereotypes associated with Indian people by past Greek writers or other Europeans. I hope you got my point! — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Mohamed Hassan's publication is RS, his review of other's people's work makes Galla-Oromo nomenclature discussion notable. That suffices, yet, I have added two more peer reviewed scholarly sources. Please don't evade @Doug Weller's question. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, didn't you see the rule WP:ONUS? It says source being RS does not guarantee inclusion and there should be consensus and we could invite more editors from the Africa project & TAD and they will decide if we can not be able to get consensus. The additional sources you added also are defining a term with a stereotype, and let me ask you do you think stereotypes can be used to define an ethnic name? Pls respond Yes or No. As I said above the term India is Greek (not an Indian language) word in which Indians didnot identify themselves with it before 500 years and also Hindu is Persian language, now when you define the term Galla first you have to indicate what languages is it derived from? is it Arabic? Somali? Amharic? then what was it used to refer initially is it to refer river like Sindhu was initially used to refer Indus river? However, what you did was use stereotypes to define a term. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I have already answered your puzzling claims to WP:ONUS, above. Your replies do not make sense, see WP:TALK and WP:CENSOR. If Oromo-Galla name change was because of historic persecution and stereotyping of the Oromo people, and this is discussed by numerous reliable sources (as it is), then this article is better if it includes that summary. This talk is not a place for your prejudices/wisdoms/opinions on other wiki articles. Given @Doug Weller's comments so far on this talk page, the plurality of view is to keep the Galla-Oromo discussion and sources. I suggest you try WP:ANI, as Project Africa and WP:TAD are not the appropriate venue. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, I used examples so that the issue I raised is understood clearly. By the way none of the sources you used says "the term Galla is derived from X language which initially means Y and later used to refer Z people" similar to any of wikipedia past & present ethnic names are defined. If there is one source you believed has defined the term like this precisely pls bring the quotation below for discussion. As for Mohamed Hassan quoting Kesete Tesema Berhan then we need to see the original quoted work to see if his statement is not paraphrased out of context. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: You are mistaken in more ways than one. Read the language in the article and supporting multiple sources carefully. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Barton is indeed not from the Horn region. He was British civil servant in Kenya. When he transferred to Fiji, he was described as ", a man with pronounced racialist attitudes who was opposed to even the leading Fijian chiefs fraternising with Europeans in Suva clubs." As for "Mohamed Hassan", he's the source we need to decide about, not his own sources. Not the dictionary, although I can find a number of sources for the dictionary. You've made the mistake of assuming that there was only one spelling for his name. See[19] for one spelling. Doug Weller talk 16:58, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I'll add that this is getting tiring, heading towards disruptive. And repeat that we do not need to see the dictionary. But by all means, if you are going to continue to argue this, go to WP:RSN. Doug Weller talk 16:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, could you share with us the source you used to describe Burton's atitude. It is hard to beleive a racist man writing a book picturing African tribes by saying they are like Europeans. You may see his research saying that "the Oromos are like Germans of Africa". I am not here for disrupting and am only here so that we have an article that makes sense and with equal standard with other similar wikipedia articles. In addition to the quality of the articles I am arguing for the sake of peace in my home country & the region as a whole. Just imagine what will happen to minority Tutsis & White South Africans if we have wikipedia article saying these minorities did OR are still picturing (stereotype) the majority Hutus and black South Africans as barbarian & savage people. In another example imagine adding a statement saying Muslim Americans picture (sterotype) Americans as heathen or infidel people by quoating a reliable source. You don't find such kind of stereotypes in those articles not because there is lack of reliable sources but it is avoided as per wiki rule WP:ONUS. If Ms Sarah Welch beleives that such kind of sterotypes are aproporiate to add in wiki articles why is she not adding them up also in Zulu people, Hutu people and Islam in America article when there are numerous reliable sources available, why only here? Note that no one saved the Tutsis and also the white Zumababwans so do Ethiopians if there is any destablisation in the region. Once again I am using examples related to this topic i.e. are such kind of stereotypes are aproporiate or not based wiki rule WP:ONUS which state that verfiablity doesnot guarantee inclusion and which further says The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Thank you. - EthiopianHabesha (talk)

My source is this. Please stop talking about other articles. Go edit them if you wish but they aren't relevant here. On the other hand, responding to what I write might be useful. The dictionary quote seems a reliable source, if you don't think it is, go to WP:RSN. I have no idea what "Probably those Galla whose southward route lay near the East Coast of Africa and who are now found along the Tana Eiver and in the neighbourhood of Witu are correctly described by Dr. Krapf as " more primitive " than those of Abyssinia whom he met during his activities there between 1838 and 1842, in that they are the relicts of the early migrants and had little contact with the races of Abyssinia. Incidentally Dr. Krapf, himself a German, described the Galla as the '- Germans of Africa." Of course that doesn't help us understand what he meant at all, so it's pretty useless. Doug Weller talk 17:08, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, thanks for providing the source. However, Barton's research is peer reviewed and published by Journal of The East Africa and Uganda Natural History Society and this research of him is notable while the book quoted by Mohamed Hassan is not notable. Searching kesete Berhan Tesema in google books, web result and article archivers does not mention his name and even his work. Moreover no other historian, who published their work in English, quotes Kesete's work except Mohamed Hassan as the google book result shows while the research published in the scientific journal is quoted by 33 books and web result brings 554 results.[20][21] Besides, if we study the personal background of past European writers almost all have racist attitudes and if we exclude sources based on writers personal attitude then the world would not have a history to tell. As for the other articles I don't want to add such kind of stereotypes in any other articles and what am saying is if Ms Sarah Welch strongly believes they are appropriate then why is she not adding them there by saying X & Y tribe name were in the past associated by similar streotypes but those tribes still continued to use the name though? Wikipedia urges editors to be impartial and avoid undue weight i.e. to say it is appropriate to add such kind of stereotypes in this article while adding them in the other article is not appropriate. I see these kind of stereotypes in propaganda leaflets to provoke ethnic violence and I personally believe in telling history by saying there is this X & Y government or Social system/law that discriminated/segregated or promoted people fairly & unfairly if there is any to tell as the history of the people. Thank you — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha:Please read what I write more carefully. I told you that you were making a mistake in searching for the author of the Amharic dictionary. You are assuming that there is only one spelling for his name, and that's just wrong. I gave this link to you above, even just kesete} turns up sources using his dictionary. "Notable" isn't a word we use in conjunction with sources, by the way. You've got another problem. You say that [https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Origins+of+the+Galla+and+Somali+tribes&oq=The+Origins+of+the+Galla+and+Somali+tribes&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64l2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=%22The+Origins+of+the+Galla+and+Somali+tribes%22 this link produces 554 results. Well, when I do it I see the figure 551. When I actually to look at them by going to page 2 I find only 15. Two of those are Facebook pages. One is the Oromo article and there are copies of that included in the 15. Doug Weller talk 13:20, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Here is a scholarly review of Hassan's book cited in this article. The review writer, Guluma Gemeda, states, "Mohammed Hassen's The Oromo of Ethiopia is a very timely and significant contribution....". That a journal published a review, and that Hassen's 1990 book has been published by Cambridge University Press, makes that 1990 source notable and RS for this article (regardless of what your personal feelings/prejudices/wisdoms may be). Beside Hassan, there are numerous other WP:RS which are saying the same thing, of which I have cited two. For the rest of your tiresome repetitions and misunderstandings, see the replies by @Doug Weller and I above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:22, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, thanks for the links provided. However, the links say the dictionary is published in 1958 while Hassan said 1970. By the way if you see Mohamed Hassan's book he said he quoted the definition from another source indicated in the footnotes at the same page. Therofore, Mohamed Hassan is telling us that he did not see the dictionary himself but quoted another writer by the name Toleeraa Tasmaa whose document is published in "pberna printing", and searching this reviewer or printing organisation in google web result brings no result [22] also searching google books if any book quoted a research work published by this printing organisation brings also only 1 result which is that of Hassan's work [23]. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:31, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, with respect why don't you concentrate on issues presented instead of proving your points by attacking editors by repeatedly saying they have prejudices & low wisdom. I beleive it is you who have prejudices because you don't want to include such kind of stereotypes, inspite of numerous available RS found in Google books, written on Zulu people of SA for instance? You want to protect the White & Indian minorities found there but you don't care on the minorities found in Oromo dominated territories. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Take Hassan's book to WP:RSN if you wish. Right now you're also attacking an editor and without grounds. Where does she say she wants to protect White and Indian minorities? Doug Weller talk —Preceding undated comment added 14:58, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, firstly I appreciate you trying to help in solving my issues with Ms Sarah. Usually in talk pages I avoid teasing editors and only criticise & question the content & sources presented. However, if you have seen Ms Sarah's comment she avoids dealing with the issues presented and rather continued to tease me by saying I have prejudices (still did not explain why she said that), low wisdom and even keep on urging that I should take orientation in tea house because she thinks I don't know how wikipedia works. And in response to her claim that I have prejudice (while claiming she has no prejudice) I brought that topic so that she proves her good faith editing as per wiki rule WP:GOODFAITH. I was simply asking her a question why she want such kind of stereotypes in here but not in Zulu people? She could say "I did not put it there because X & Y reason but it is appropriate to add them here for this and that reasons" instead of personal attack. To summarise this topic, what I was arguing about is somehow similar to the topic should we add the phrase: "Muslims view Americans as heathen or infidel people" on United States article by quoting a RS who is quoting extremist's publication? I mean yes it is true there are some muslim Americans who have these kind of view but should we add it anyways? We were discussing them as per WP:ONUS and if we cannot reach consensus then may be I will try WP:RSN. Thanks for the help anyways — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

{{re|EthiopianHabesha]] Those are inappropriate questions. Please don't discuss other articles here. The article makes it clear that "heathen" was used to mean "non-Muslim". This isn't a stereo-type. Doug Weller talk 15:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I used related examples to make the issue more clear. Heathen is only one of them, what about the other outdated stereotypes? Hassan book is published by Cambridge university? Where did Ms Sarah Welch got that information? The book is published by Boydell & Brewer publishers [24] — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:50, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Books get republished. It was originally a CUP book.[25] 'Heathen' is not being used as a stereotype. Doug Weller talk 17:09, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, ok then but we can agree that Hassan quoted another writer's work which is published in unknown organisation for his statement "Kesete Berhan dictionary translated...." (in which Ms Sarah Welch relied to add content here saying "...is translated...."). Ms Sarah in DRN is suggesting Hassan did check the dictionary while he himself stated he quoted that phrase from Toleeraa Tasmaa whose work is published in Pberna printing as can be seen here [26]. If he has checked the dictioanry then why not list Kesete's work in the footnote? This is obviously poor reputation for fact checking on both the writer and the editors part which would be against WP:QUESTIONABLE WP:GOODFAITH. Anyways, considering 1,000s of literatures using the term Galla and wikipedia being an encyclopedia where people come here to answer their question of what is the term 'Galla' then my opinion is we find another source which properly defines the term by saying "it is derived from X language which initially used to refer Y" as per WP:EXTRAORDINARY which states any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources (multiple mainstream sources). My opinion is exclude the disputed content until we define the term while leaving stereotypes associated with people (Note: all the 2,000 ethnic-groups of people in Africa have stereotypes applied on them by all their neighbors and Wikipedia being a collaborative enterprise it will be upto wikipedia editors to decide on weather including them in the article improves the article or not as per WP:ONUS. Doug Weller, please provide your recommendation or proposal. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 10:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: If you don't think Hassan's book is a reliable source take it to WP:RSN. He's not questionable or self-published source and "good faith" doesn't apply to sources. WP:Extraordinary doesn't apply here either. Our sources do not stereotype anyone, they say the name "has been translated by other ethnic groups as "pagan, savage, inferior, enemy",[19][20][21] and "heathen, that is non-Muslim"." That's a huge difference. The article is not sterotyping anyone. And why are you here while the dispute resolution process is going on? Doug Weller talk 11:43, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller, I came back here after Robert McClenon advise stating "Wikipedia is a collaborative enterprise" where articles are edited by discussion & consensus i.e. by carefully analyzing contents even if they are RS (based on WP:GOODFAITH, WP:ONUS and WP:DUE rules), by bringing many quotations from multiple sources here in this talkpage from various writers for discussion instead of relying only on one writer, then finally everyone comes up with precise proposals/recommendations and incase of disagreement invite more editors who specializes with ethnic-group articles to have their say. Instead of following these procedures Ms Sarah was pushing for her version only by attacking an editor, manipulating the issues I raised & not willing to respond/engage to them and accusing with prejudice. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:11, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

User:EthiopianHabesha - I haven't reviewed the history in enough detail to be certain, but if User:Doug Weller cautions you, I would take his caution seriously. In my own experience, User:Ms Sarah Welch has been a reasonable editor. In any case, if you have been cautioned about disruptive editing or consensus, listen. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:23, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, thanks for the comment. Actually, I have stooped reverting after Doug Weller intervened and after that I tried to solve the issue by discussion here in this talk page and I don't know why he said disruptive. I was bringing related examples so that raised issue is much more clear but not to discuss on what should be done on the other articles. Besides, I have been accused by User:Ms Sarah Welch of prejudice for reason not explained to me so far, instead why not proof she has no prejudice by treating all wikipedia articles equally i.e. if she strongly believes adding those terms are appropriate here then why is she not adding them on the other related articles when they can be supported with much more high quality sources & in great numbers? Thank you — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:19, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: once again, please do not cast aspersions and allege "she or he or someone accused me of this or that", without edit-diffs. Using an article's talk page as a forum, with walls of irrelevant posts about other articles etc, as abundantly and repeatedly evidenced above, is also a form of disruption of wikipedia. Frankly, you already have the attention and the patience of @Doug Weller and @Robert McClenon, two of the more seasoned and balanced contributors to the wikipedia project. Please listen to them. I am. Let us focus on this article please. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:42, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha, please stop commenting on other editors, and in particular stop telling Ms Welch to edit other articles. I can't see how anyone can add "has been translated by other ethnic groups as "pagan, savage, inferior, enemy" to other articles (as an example). You are not showing good faith, you started the dispute resolution process and abandoned it, wasting everyone's time. And that is not stereotyping anyone. You can't avoid teh reality of how different groups of people react to each other. Doug Weller talk 13:11, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

User:EthiopianHabesha - I think that I am finished responding to you (and that isn't good). I see that your comments are not constructive and show ethnic or nationalistic anger. I expect to ignore any more comments on your part, and will let User:Doug Weller or an uninvolved administrator save the rest of us time by blocking you when they decide that your comments are disruptive. It doesn't appear that you have anything useful to say, and I will leave the useless comments alone. If you have having a problem posting in English, consider contributing to the Amharic Wikipedia, but I haven't looked up all of the linguistic details. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:16, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, well I have clearly stated above on why I have been arguing i.e. for the quality of articles and for peace in the Horn of Africa and if someone considers this as a nationalistic anger then that is their opinion. I very much appreciate Doug Weller giving more time and attention to this issue than MS Sarah to solve them by discussion and consensus. I tried as much as possible to let know my opinion by explaining precisely & with examples as well as with respect while not offending any editors but rather concentrating on the content presented, and if there is any wrongdoing on my side I will very much appreciate it if I was told precisely on how I violated wiki rules. Thank you. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

If there is agreement to include the name discussion then I have come up with the following proposal after considering Ms Sarah's contribution and also by adding more content from several sources:

Before 1970s the name Galla was used and it’s definition is uncertain as different writers interpret the term differently. According to Barton the word means “to go home” and he states that based on Abyssinian tradition the term Galla is derived from an Abyssinian lady of rank who was given in marriage to a Gurage slave whom she bore seven sons who later became the founders of tribes inhabiting near the river Galla. Another speculated origin, states Barton, for their historic name is from the Muslim tradition, which states that when Muhammad asked them to accept Islam, the chief of this ethnic group said "Gha la" or "no", thus their name "Galla".[27] According to Walter and Steffen 'Galla' appears to be a political term more than an ethnic one which is applied to non united groups including Afars and which could include cushitic-speaking groups.[28] Another writer, Mohammed Hassan, states that the label Galla for them is a stereotype and has been translated by other ethnic groups to mean "heathen, that is non-Muslim" and the name is also attached to derogatory stereotypes.[29] On the other hand, Fargher states that before the revolution "Galla" was used by Europeans without any derogatory connotations.[30] However, the term is considered pejorative and Oromos resist it’s use. The Oromo do not identify themselves as Galla and they traditionally identified themselves by one of their clans (gosas), and in contemporary times have used the common umbrella term of Oromo which connotes "Sons of men".[31]

I came up with the above proposal based on wiki rule WP:IMPARTIAL stating that content should be presented in an impartial tone and not in a way to advocate and also based on these rules: WP:GOODFAITH, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:ONUS and WP:DUE. If Doug Weller and Ms Sarah Welch have opinions or suggestions on the content presented please kindly do so. Thank you — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:39, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Your wording is inconsistent with the sources (e.g. "now considered pejorative" implies it wasn't in the past), and unclear. I have checked your sources, and added two sentences: one based on Didier Morin, and other based on Brian Fargher. We need to keep the second sources, given the relevance and importance of "Galla versus Oromo" nomenclature to Oromo people, per reliable sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:09, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: You reverted the following addition, which tried to collaboratively include two sources from your proposal above:

According to Didier Morin, the word Galla may have been a political term and derived from Galli, which means both "foreigners" and carries derogatory connotation "ordinary, commoner" as opposed to moddai or "high descent".^[1] The term Galla was also used by European missionaries before the 1974 revolution without any derogatory connotations.^[2]

Comments? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, please wait until the discussion is over before you make edit and let's try to work together, and if we cannot be able to reach consensus then we request RFC so that various uninvolved editors with various views have their say. If we are here to edit articles without prejudice then discussion before edit will not hurt anyone. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Instead of repeating the same "discuss this" message, every half hour, can you please discuss? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch We can change "now pejorative" to just "pejorative", I wrote that to show it is still pejorative. Any other issues with the proposal? As for Didier Morin, why do you oppose the term being used on cushitic people in general that also includes Afar as the source said it here [32]? You took ....political term... from this phrase and joined it with one of the various definitions the writer proposed which I left them because they are already addressed by the other writers and dont want to repeat them. My idea is to present the various views by mentioning all writers name as per impartial tone and no Advocacy — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: You misunderstand WP:ONUS, WP:ADVOCACY etc guidelines, and these do not give you (or me) a right to be convinced, or for you to label reliable sources you don't like, and summary from reliable sources you don't like, as advocacy, etc. Your proposed version is unclear, do not properly and adequately reflect the sources. I suggest we just add the two sentences above. Do you have any specific concerns with those two sentences? Yes, we can add a bit more from the Didier Morin chapter including the politics in the history section, which is where more summary from Morin belongs. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, regarding the two sentences:

Here is the exact wording of Didier Morin's conclusion on the term as published on a book written by Walter and Steffen without modification:

In other cases, especially when dealing with the collective origin of the former inhabitants, 'Galla' appears to be a political term more than an ethnic one, applied to non united groups (including Afars, as in Gallamir!). It could include Cushitic-speaking groups......[33]

Now that is what is exactly found in the book and I don't think there is any concern on this part from you, if so we can discuss them.

Here is your summary:

According to Didier Morin, the word Galla may have been a political term and derived from Galli, which means both "foreigners" and carries derogatory connotation "ordinary, commoner" as opposed to moddai or "high descent".

And here is my summary:

According to Walter and Steffen 'Galla' appears to be a political term more than an ethnic one which is applied to non united groups including Afars and which could include cushitic-speaking groups.

I preferred to summerise the writers conclusion on the term instead of all the data presented prior i.e. the term Galli's various definitions used for analysis and used by the writer to come to conclusion of on what is the term Galla. When presenting scientific research we present only the conclusion of the research made by the researcher but not go into datas and summerize our-self while ignoring the researcher's conclusion. Note that Morin concluded that the term Galla is not equal to Oromo and the writer used Political term for the former inhabitants.

Here are specific concerns:

1) Why do you exclude Morin's conclusion (in which the word 'political' is associated with) as to mean cushitic people that also includes Afar, and instead include the Galli definition (Afars definition of the term Galli)?

2) For the second sentence why add "missionaries" and say "European missionaries" when the source says "before the Revolution "Galla" was used by Europeans without any derogatory connotations." [34]

3) As for the proposal do you have any other specific issues? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Sections need to be coherent to the reader. In the nomenclature section, we are trying to coherently summarize the information on Galla being the common name/reference for the Oromo people over most of their known history, what it meant according to different sources and what led to the name change to Oromo. Please reread the Didier Morin's book's page 432. There, on the first half of that page, lines 2 to 21 (2a-b, 2c), you will find the nomenclature-relevant information and direct support for my summary. Similarly, read the sentences and pages that precede that footnote, providing the context in Brian Fargher's The Origins of the New Churches Movement in Southern Ethiopia book. It is not about all Europeans, it is about European missionaries and their effort to establish churches. Footnotes always must be read and summarized without losing their context. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:35, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

ps: fwiw, we have already summarized the 'political term' part as.... "According to Didier Morin, the word Galla may have been a political term (...)" Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:08, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, as section name nomenclature indicates and based on the suggestion that the term 'Galla' must be discussed (though, initially I opposed since 1,000s of writers used it for different purpose and it's definition is determined by the writer and for what purpose the writer is using it) then we have to define the term properly and if intially the term was used to refer a name of a river then that should be discussed and also initially if it was used to refer the Afar people or Agaw people while not Oromo then that also must be mentioned. Wikipedia being an encyclopedia where people come to define terms after they encounter it in any books then we have to be carefull when defining the term so that the reader does not take the book writer's view out of context. As for Morin I was not saying your summary is not found in the book but what I was saying is we should instead take the writer's conclusion on what the term is. You have taken the writers use of "political term" to conclude on the Galla definition and joined it with definitions of the term 'Galli' as defined by Afar people, doing that is against WP:SYNTH rule saying "Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source." As for "European missionaries" I read the whole page before & after the footnote and I didnot get that, besides if that is what it means then why not the writer precisely say "by European missionaries" instead of saying simply "by Europeans"? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:49, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Sorry, I don't understand you. Let us focus on Morin first. The article currently states,

Quote: According to Didier Morin, the word Galla may have been a political term and derived from Galli, which means both "foreigners" and carries derogatory connotation "ordinary, commoner" as opposed to moddai or "high descent".

What is the new synth conclusion reached or implied in this summary, that is not stated in the Morin source? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, firstly as per this we need to agree that the definitions you have added is based on only on the Afar society and their definition of the term 'galli'. This is not mentioned in your summary. Furthermore, Morin is just presenting here (in the first paragraph/section) how the term is defined among Afar people and in that paragraph there is no conclusion from Morin and it is just how the Afars defined the term. However, on the second paragrah you have Morin's conclusion explaining clearly why she said "it appears a political term" and instead of presenting this conclusion you ignored writers reasoning and preferred to just emphasis on one of Afars definition of the term which they defined it is "ordinary people". Now this is why I said WP:SYNTH which says "Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.". Are you saying that is not Synthesis? When you could have summerised it in WP:Goodfaith by saying "Afar people defined the term as ……" and in separate sentence "The writer Morin, after going through various sources & explaining how different communities defined the term, concluded that the term appears to be political term……".

In regards to Morin’s statement saying:

In other cases, especially when dealing with the collective origin of the former inhabitants, 'Galla' appears to be a political term more than an ethnic one, applied to non united groups (including Afars, as in Gallamir!). It could include Cushitic-speaking groups......

Could you let me know why you opposed the inclusion of summary made from the above conclusion of Morin? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 10:58, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I have already explained the reasons for my opposition above. Do you wish we acknowledge Didier Morin's context is the Afar language? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:39, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, that means you want to include your conclusion of the whole research and exclude the summary of the writer's own conclusion, you may correct me if I am wrong but that is what am getting for the reason of your opposition. If so the question is which conclusion we take the book writer or wikipedia editor? By the way what is the issue on Morin's conclusion found in the second paragraph here? Why that should not be summerised and be included in the article? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Morin's conclusion is that Galla may have been a "political term" in parts of Ethiopia, which is what the article is saying. I therefore do not understand your concern. If you want the acknowledgment of Afar language, we can word that in. If you want the acknowledgment of "in Afar, it could have been general Cushitic groups", we can word that in. We just need to be careful in not over-emphasizing Afar language perspective here because it is very similar to Saho-language, with roots closer to Djibouti and Eritrea, which is far from southern regions where Oromo origins and history have been. Please read the whole chapter of Morin on all of this, or look at the demographic maps here and here. Frankly, we are not making progress because you are evading my questions and repeating yourself in ways that neither reflects this article nor the source we are discussing. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, my concern is why censor on Morin's statment saying the term Galla was used to refer Afar people (generally, used to refer all high & low social classes of Afar people) as well as Cushitic speaking groups? Morin mentioned "political term" to explain how the term was used in Amda Seyon chronicle, and the word 'political' is not associated with the three definitions defined by the Afar people as 1)crowd (ignored in your summary), 2)foreign and 3)Ordinary people (emphasized in your summary). Therfore, when including 'political' in your summary it should be included based on what the writer is exactly implying and if not it is considered Synthesis. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:59, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: you keep repeating WP:Synthesis, but evade answering what "new synth conclusion" is made or implied in the article. Are you suggesting that we add "crowd" as additional definition, or add "Cushitic group"-related wording, or both? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:19, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, all my explanations above was to show and answer your question that what you added in the article as Morin's statment is indeed Synthesis, I mean your summary is not what Morin is implying. What am suggesting is to make a summary on what Morin was exactly saying. Could you propose another summary here for discussion if you donot agree with the following proposed summary:

According to Didier Morin 'Galla' appears to be a political term more than an ethnic one which is applied to non united groups including Afars and which could include cushitic-speaking groups.

Plan is we discuss and add what we agree on and on those we have disagreement I was hoping to request RFC or invite other editors who specialize in ethnic-group articles or in African history and have their say since wikipedia is a collaborative enterprise. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 08:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, those two sentences have been discussed in great length, can we please proceed with other specific issues, if you have other ones, regarding to the proposal found on top of this section. I just want to summerise our discussion and forward it to other editors (RFC) to give their suggestions on those ones we have disagreement. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:04, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: If you state something new, I will respond. Else, I will ignore you, as there is no need for me to repeat. Your walls of text with misunderstanding of wikipedia content guidelines, your evading my questions, followed by absurd allegations of WP:Synthesis, WP:Proveit etc, is neither helpful to our discussion nor in improving this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, I have one question, of all the three definitions defined by the Afar people why only one of them ("ordinary people") is emphasised? I beleive all the neighouring people have different definitions for the term and if we begin to include them all the article will bloat, instead why not focus on the ones most literatures use as their sources such Arabic-Islamic, Christian & European literatures and the definitions they apply on the term? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 13:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: Unbelievable comment again. We now have all the definitions you have asked for including crowd etc (2-a-b). Please read 2-c on the cited page Morin's source, which reads: "ordinary people, commoners' (with the derogatory meaning of Galla vs Oromo) as opposed to moddai 'of high descent'."? I will now stop answering absurd questions of yours that misrepresent sources or don't make any sense. We have had enough of walls of post and repetition. Please listen to admin @Robert McClenon's advice; if you have problem with English, please consider contributing to the Amharic Wikipedia. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:34, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, Why this very simple & clear question: "of all the three definitions by Afars why emphasis in one of them?" is being responded by personal attack? Note that I didnot say the other definitions are not included, because that is how you are trying to present my question. What I said is "emphasis" not "not included", I mean instead of presenting simply as Afars defined it as 'crowd', 'foreigner' and 'ordinary people' why pick one of them and explain in detail while the others are not? I asked that question because Wikiepdia says the importance of content added or emphasised should be discussed so that it is according to WP:DUE, and if you don't want to answer that very simply question then you could have ignored it instead of trying to convince your POV by bullying (short cut) the editor. And please know that in Ethiopia there are 80 languages (and I am fluent in 3 of them) spoken, just incase if you do not have any clue about that before suggesting Amharic. Please be WP:CIVIL and discuss the content only & not the editor. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:03, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, per your request above, here are new contents to be added in the article:

1) As discussed above the term is interpreted differently so add this in the article: "it’s definition is uncertain as different writers interpret the term differently."

2) In regards to info quoated from Barton, adjust & add more content from his definitions: "According to Barton the word means “to go home” and he states that based on Abyssinian tradition the term Galla is derived from an Abyssinian lady of rank who was given in marriage to a Gurage slave whom she bore seven sons who later became the founders of tribes inhabiting near the river Galla."

3) Since writer's name for all different interpretions are mentioned then also add Mohamed Hassan

4) Summerise all the listed stereotypes as "the name is also attached to derogatory stereotypes". This is based on the rule WP:IMPARTIAL stating that content should be presented in an impartial tone and not in a way to advocate. Also based on WP:ONUS

5) Most sources define the term 'Oromo' as to mean 'Sons of men' (Ilma Orma (ilm orma)), so also add this.

If you have opinions on the content presented let's discuss about them. Thank you — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: (1) The article already states "word Galla has been variously interpreted", that is sufficient. (2) read Barton again, it also calls the Oromo people to be from seven tribes of robbers born from that lady and slave etc, but the relevant part there is "named after river Galla" which the article already states. If you feel it is important to include the "lady of rank and tribes of robbers" story, we can word it in somewhere in this article. (3) No need to state Hassan because numerous sources are cited there, and not just Hassan states that. I ignore (4) and (5) for reasons explained above. I suggest we remove Barton as it is not WP:HISTRS and per concerns of @Doug Weller. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:07, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, thanks for the above opinions, responding by just dealing with the content presented. I would very much appreciate it if we just continue with a civilised discussion like that. 1) Any problem with adding 'uncertain'? If you don't want to answer that ignore it, I don't want similar response you gave above (like responding "how dare you ask such kind of questions") 2) Ok then we can skip the story & just make it "According to Abyssinian tradition it is a reference to a river named Galla" 3) The issue is it is only Hassan's source that says "translated" while the others didnot say it is translated but clearly said the name is "associated". Therfore, because there is a great difference between the word 'translated' & 'associated', that sentence with with 'translated' should be attributed as "according to Mohamed Hassan". Ok for 4 & 5 no consensus meaning this one will be taken to other editors or RFC to have their say. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The term Gala is used by Amharas against the Oromo people, no need to sugar coat it. Create another article about the etymology of Galla, this is the Oromo peoples article. Duqsene (talk) 01:24, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@Duqsene: Welcome to wikipedia. I agree with this edit of yours, because @EthiopianHabesha's edit made the sentence quite muddled. Let me think about your "not mainstream" comment. @EthiopianHabesha: Nope, multiple sources do state the translation part. The "uncertain" qualifier is not what the numerous reliable sources are stating. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. The overwhelming number of sources point to Gala as the pejorative former name of the Oromo. Encyclopedia Britannica writes Gala as an alternative name for Oromo. I couldnt find any sources relating to Gala used to denote Afar people or other Cushitic tribes therefore Morin's view is a minority. This is my opinion. Duqsene (talk) 08:21, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I reverted you because a check on Gbooks suggests that he's a reliable source by our criteria and the statemoment was clearly attributed. If we can be sure he's not just a minority but the only such source than perhaps it should go. Doug Weller talk 10:12, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, can you please bring the link containing the word 'translated' with pg # and section in sources other than Mohamed's? I have checked the other sources found in the article and all say 'associated'. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Translated as, means, defined as, etc are equivalent. Please see 1 (pages 205-206 with footnotes), 2 (page 139), 3 (pages 178, 16-18), 4 (page 183), etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:27, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, ok then don't mention Hassan. I like the 3 sources you brought above which defined the term with an impartial tone & would have been great if it was also presented like that here in Wikipedia, and that is just an opinion. As for definition of the term 'Oromo' there are reliable sources that say it means "sons of men" while in the article it is different. How do we deal with this issue? Shoudnt we add both? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:01, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: I am fine with adding "Ilma Orma" means "sons of Oromo" or "children of Oromo" (the latter is in Hassan for example, on page 110). Let us not write, 'the word Oromo means "sons of Oromo"...'. It will be confusing to readers because it is a reversion (as in "sons of [sons of [infinite loop]"). Thats careless writing, and no definition, in other words. Please go ahead with Ilma Orma, with reliable source(s). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Copied from my user talk page, for context:

Ms Sarah, the Map you put in Oromo people article is saying "1908 Map" which contradicts with another map from the United States Library of Congress's Geography & Map Division prepared by Edward Hertslet before he died in 1902. Compare the maps you put [35] with the replaced one [36][37]. When you oppose the replacement are you saying the map found in Library of congress is inaccurate? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:54, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: The Library of Congress is a library with zillion maps and more. The image(s) we select for this article should strive to the goals explained at MOS:IMAGES, in terms of "significance, relevance to the topic's context, not primarily decorative, illustrative aid to understanding the section/article". A good image is easy to see, read, understand. Both maps are historic, both show Galla according to two different authors. The 1908 is clearer and offers easier to see Galla-land depiction. The 1902 map doesn't. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:14, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

@EthiopianHabesha: So you know, I considered showing both images side by side, 1908 and LoC one. But the LoC map is very difficult to read. If you find another clearer, easier to read map that shows Galla regions, we can add a double image template. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:20, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, you have to acknowledge the map you put saying 1908 contradicts with map found in Library of Congress, I mean have you noticed the Eritrean, Djibouti and Kenyan borders by 1908? Do you think this border is correct? If so then it would be against to this one that is found in a respected library in the world and prepared by a respected scholar Edward Hertslet before he died in 1902. If you think the border of 1908 in your map is correct please confirm and the topic of this section would be about that and for the sake of the quality of this article then we will try to confirm the borders by bringing sources from various sources. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:14, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha, the map you added has nothing to do with Oromo people as they were not in the region in 1420. Sarah's map is relevant to the topic of this page. Duqsene (talk) 22:40, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@Duqsene:, others: Would you have time to expand the "Society and culture" section? It is weak, and there are so many interesting and beautiful historic parts to Oromo people culture and society that we can and should be summarizing from sources. For example, Ayyaana and the related religious-philosophical tradition of the Oromo people, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)