Langbahn Team – Weltmeisterschaft

Talk:Miladinov brothers

The substitution of the term Bulgarian in this article with the term Macedonian is POV

Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th,[1][2][3] up until the early 20th century.[4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later.[5][6][7][8][9][10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.[11][12][13][14][15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed.[16][17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed.[18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness.[19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population.[20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation.[21] Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 16:56, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 19-20.
  2. ^ Средновековни градови и тврдини во Македонија, Иван Микулчиќ, Македонска академија на науките и уметностите — Скопје, 1996, стр. 72.
  3. ^ Formation of the Bulgarian nation: its development in the Middle Ages (9th-14th c.) Academician Dimitŭr Simeonov Angelov, Summary, Sofia-Press, 1978, pp. 413-415.
  4. ^ Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe, Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) - "Macedonians of Bulgaria", p. 14.
  5. ^ Krste Misirkov, On the Macedonian Matters (Za Makedonckite Raboti), Sofia, 1903: "And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"
  6. ^ Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-7190-6605-4. Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
  7. ^ Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5. On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
  8. ^ Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6. The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
  9. ^ Rae, Heather (2002). State identities and the homogenisation of peoples. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 278. ISBN 0-521-79708-X. Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
  10. ^ Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6. Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
  11. ^ Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65, ISBN 0691043566
  12. ^ Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, Connecticut Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200
  13. ^ The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.
  14. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  15. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  16. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  17. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  18. ^ The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566, pp. 65-66.
  19. ^ Europe since 1945. Encyclopedia by Bernard Anthony Cook. ISBN 0815340583, pg. 808.[1]
  20. ^ Djokić, Dejan (2003). Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. pp. 122 .
  21. ^ Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89.

Their language

An article about the Miladinov brothers does not need to be written from the POV of the Miladinov brothers themselves. --WavesSaid (talk) 13:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by this? --Laveol T 13:35, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Strumica and Prilep-Bitola dialect are "Macedonian". --WavesSaid (talk) 14:58, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

However, this people used in their official correspondence initially Greek and later Bulgarian language (based on eastern dialects). They called themselves Bulgarians and their language Bulgarian (including the local speaches). A lot of secondary, academic sources confirm this point of view. Nevetrtheless, in this article is mentioned, that in the Republic of Macedonia they are thought to have laid the foundation of the Macedonian literary traditions. Any questions? Jingiby (talk) 15:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree with those points, and I don't doubt that they identified themselves or their language as "Bulgarian". The Miladinov brothers, however, were not linguists, and we need to exercise caution in our use of primary sources and try to avoid original research. Their personal views are exactly that and should be treated as "statements of opinion". --WavesSaid (talk) 00:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, so what other source do you suppose to use as a source of their self-consciousnesses? It would be a "statement of opinion" were it somebody else's view, not their own. This won't work, sorry.--Laveol T 02:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about their language (notice the section title?). Not being linguists, their claims are statements of opinion. Their self-identification, on the other hand, cannot be disputed. --WavesSaid (talk) 03:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Other issues aside, does higher education in philology classify one as a linguist? I am just curious (and amused by the way one can try and get around facts). --Laveol T 03:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, a degree in physics doesn't necessarily qualify one as a mathematical statistician. So no. The fact is that their language is Macedonian. Should you chose to challenge this, you will need to find a reliable source that states otherwise. --WavesSaid (talk) 03:41, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are already reliable sources in the actual article. Where are your reliable sources? I mean besides your own opinion, which you seem to regard as more than reliable and relevant. --Laveol T 03:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not being a linguist, it's not my opinion that those dialects are Macedonian. I'm not qualified to make such claims, that's why I trust the authorities in that field. Which source classifies those dialects as something other than Macedonian? --WavesSaid (talk) 04:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not "these dialects" but the language they wrote in. The source is indicated in the actual article. --Laveol T 04:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The bulk of the folk songs they collected are in a Macedonian dialect. --WavesSaid (talk) 04:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which one? Or are they collection of folk songs from the whole region? And what source do you have for this claim (again). --Laveol T 04:19, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Miladinov Brothers were born in Struga, Republic of Macedonia

A bit of housekeeping, good to start with the fact that Miladinov Brothers were born in Struga, Republic of Macedonia instead of writing twice later.

Macedonian POV is that Miladinov Brothers managed to bypass the strong Austrian pro-Bulgarian propaganda in the mid XIX century to covertly forward some Macedonian national ideas. The Miladinov collection of folk songs was published in Croatia, under Austrian supervision (to show Bulgarian territorial pretensions or Austrian Balkan interests). That is why Sofia is included with the other Macedonian cities. To make this very visible they put Bulgarian in the title and have a preface that emphasizes Bulgarian Slavs in the acknowledgement to the publisher, with a covert explanation that the language, writing and wording is a bit different. If you start reading the book from the foreword, there is nothing strikingly Bulgarian after that. Furthermore, Miladinov brothers were smart to insert several pro Macedonian hints. In the Miladinov collection there are legends about tzar Alexander (Alexander the Great) and that the Macedonians buried their kings in Voden. Why these so-called "Bulgarians" kept legends about ancient Macedonians kings? Why the legends of ancient Macedonians are in this book of "Bulgarian" folk songs? This could be interesting question for Bulgarian historians to answer. Toci (talk) 22:49, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Republic of Macedonia was created in 1991 and Miladinov brothers died in 1862. They were born and died in the Ottoman empire. Please, provide reliable sources in support of your claims. Thanks.Jingiby (talk) 06:17, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a link in Britanica (https://www.britannica.com/art/Macedonian-literature) that states that "in the 19th century there appeared original lyric poetry written by Konstantin Miladinov, who, with his brother Dimitrije, compiled a notable collection of legends and folk songs that contributed to the development of a nascent Macedonian literature". Macedonian language and literature is not invented dear Jingiby. Britanica is not fringe theory. Macedonian language was always there and different from Bulgarian, just the historical conditions and pro-Bulgarian or pro-Greek propaganda would aggressively fight it. That is case even today with Bulgarian Wikipedia editors, who do not see facts from within their narrow POV. Toci (talk) 06:33, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No problems. That is mentioned in the article: they are also thought to have laid the foundation of the Macedonian literary tradition. That does not mean neither they identified themselves as ethnic Macedonians, neither they were born in Republic of Macedonia, nor they classified their language as Macedonian. On a contrary: they identified as Bulgarians, called their country Lower Bulgaria and classified their language as Bulgarian. By the way Britannic is a tertiary source and Wikipedia prefers secondary ones. There are used a lot of such in this article. Just read them. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 06:47, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong that Macedonia was ever Lower Bulgaria. This is a nationalistic fantasy of San Stefano (Greater) Bulgaria. Macedonia is Macedonia. Bulgaria is Bulgaria (medieval continuation of ancient Trace). Today's reality is different from the XIX century reality on the Balkans. Macedonians were regarded as Bulgarian or Greeks. Norwegian and Finish were Swedish then. But not today. Wikipedia should be neutral. Try to state the facts (date of birth, place, works, etc.) in the articles and if you want to add controversy, better to write in talks. Wikipedia should be like Encyclopedia Britannica. If they are different Wikipedia is wrong, since Encyclopedia Britannica is peer reviewed. Your interpretation of secondary sources is not peer reviewed and you should not produce original research. Toci (talk) 07:13, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The name Macedonia derives from the Greek term Makedonía. Between 10th and 15th century Macedonia was called today Eastern Thrace, i.e. parts from Bulgaria, Turkey and Greece. With the conquest of the Balkans by the Ottomans in the late 14th century, the name of Macedonia disappeared as a geographical designation for several centuries. The name was revived just during the early 19th century, after the foundation of the modern Greek state. As result of the rise of nationalism in the Ottoman Empire, massive Greek propaganda occurred, and in this way, the name Macedonians was applied to the local Slavs, aiming to link both sides to the ancient Macedonians, as a counteract against the growing Bulgarian cultural influence into the region. Until then the Greeks called the Slavs in Macedonia "Bulgarians", and regarded them as Orthodox brethren, but the rise of Bulgarian nationalism changed the Greek position. As result a massive Greek religious and school propaganda was brought in the area, and kind of Macedonization occurred among Slavic-speaking population there. Since 1850s some Slavic intellectuals from the area, adopted the designation Macedonian as a regional identity, and it began to gain a popularity. Ultimately the designation Macedonian, changed its status after WWII and went from being predominantly a regional, ethnographic denomination, to a national one. Both brothers used in their writings as Gorna Bulgaria, i.e. Upper Bulgaria, as well as the three terms: Dolna Bulgaria, aca Lower Bulgaria, Macedonian Bulgaria and Macedonia as interchangeable. They called their Slavic language Bulgarian and regarded themselves Bulgarians. They declared themselves Bulgarian, and they were active in the Bulgarian public life. Jingiby (talk) 09:54, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, just a note about the online version of Britannica. It is not peer-reviewed. In fact, it is open for edits and this particular article is written by Gordana P. Crnkovic. You can go ahead and edit it yourself, just like Wikipedia. --Laveol T 12:37, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded the Controversy section in an attempt to explain from NPOV the Macedonian position and backed this explanation with reliable sources. Jingiby (talk) 05:55, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How to arrive to a neutral point of view

This article is slanted toward the Bulgarian point of view. This is an encyclopedia and we need to arrive to neutral formulations, supported by English language sources. I propose we use this: "Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia"[1] by Dimitar Bechev[2] Let's start with the first paragraph. I propose we change it to read like this:

"The Miladinov brothers (Bulgarian: Братя Миладинови, Bratya Miladinovi, Macedonian: Браќа Миладиновци, Brakja Miladinovci), Dimitar Miladinov (1810–1862) and Konstantin Miladinov (1830–1862), were famous educators, writers and ethnographers from the Struga, Macedonia. They are considered a pioneering figures of the national awakening in both Macedonia and Bulgaria." GStojanov (talk) 19:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we can drop some parts from pro-Bulgarian emphasis in the the first paragraph. However per Bechev himself, Miladinovs became iconic figures for the Bulgarian nationalist movement in Macedonia, while in the phrase they are considered pioneering figures of the "national awakening" in Macedonia - "national awakening" is in quotes. Per this context, from modern-day perspective the phrase "they are considered" describes the projection of the modern Macedonian ethnic distinctions onto the past, while de facto they were activists of the Bulgarian nationalist movement. More, they identified themselves as Bulgarians, called their language Bulgarian and they thought of their country as Western Bulgaria, i.e. we must distinguish the reality during their own time from the present-day Macedonian national perspective. Jingiby (talk) 05:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
PS. Please, do not forget also that references in the originals of the Miladinovs to Bulgaria, Bulgarian or Bulgarians are removed, replaced or cut off in North Macedonia. Museums there, even refuse to display some the original works by the two brothers. Jingiby (talk) 06:41, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not saying that Bechev's article is perfect, but he made a sincere and largely successful attempt to write WP:NPV article about this divisive and very sensitive topic. We do have two diametrically opposed views that exist in Macedonia and Bulgaria, and this article, as it is now, does not reflect that. Let us re-read the WP:NPV and think how can we make this article better. GStojanov (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Per Michael R. Palairet in the three-way dispute about Macedonia, the Bulgarian view is closest to the objective reality of history, but the Macedonian historiographic version violates common sense and the historical record much more than either the Greek or Bulgarian ones. And I know the Macedonian POV: the original version of the "Bulgarian Folk Songs" is hidden from the general public; every references to Bulgaria and Bulgarians in Brothers' works are replaced with Macedonian and Macedonians; the upper part of the cover showing "Bulgarian" has been cut off, the national museum of North Macedonia refuses to display Miladinov's originals, claims such as the “Bulgarian" designation appeared shortly prior to the book’s publication after manipulation, while its authors were forced to use the designation Bulgarian, etc. Jingiby (talk) 06:12, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Macedonian POV is that Miladiov brothers were born in Macedonia, used Macedonian dialect in their work and contributed to its development and later codification. They are very important for the Macedonian Revival, their poems are studied at primary and secondary schools, and you would be hard pressed to find a Macedonian unable to recite Konstantin's poem T'ga za jug. We need to reflect that in this article. GStojanov (talk) 13:18, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. By the time they were born, the name Macedonia was not used by the local people. Local dialects were not called Macedonian. And the brothers, as Bulgarian national activists were opposinng the very name Macedonia, as it became popular as a result of the Greek nationalist influence in the region, i.e. around the mid-19th century. Jingiby (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Name Macedonia was certainly used. There are several newspapers named Macedonia that were printed specifically to spread the revival in Macedonia, because the name Macedonia was popular both among the intelligentsia and the common people. Miladinov Brothers did oppose that name at one point, fearing that it gives Greeks too much power over Macedonians. That is the reason why they published the collection of songs as "Bulgarian Folk Songs" and not as "Macedonian Folk Songs". But we can't judge the book by its cover. Almost all of the material in it is collected from and written in Macedonian (Struga, Ohrid, Prilep, Kukush, etc...). There are few songs from Panagjuriste, a border town between Macedonia, Bulgaria and Thrace, so their work is significant for the Bulgarian revival too. Now let's think how we can make this article neutral to both the Macedonian and Bulgarian POV. GStojanov (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
May you provide a single source that can confirm your claim, during the life-time of Miladinovs was issued a newspapers named Macedonia to spread the Macedonian revival there? Jingiby (talk) 15:28, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is: [2]. It wasn't published by them, I didn't say that. But it confirms that the name Macedonia was used and was actually very popular. GStojanov (talk) 16:24, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The first issue of this newspaper was published several years after the death of both brothers by a Bulgarian who claimed that Macedonism is inspited by the Greek propagandists issue. Petko Slaveykov mentioned Greek (but also Serbian) propaganda activity, and his journal Makedonia fought back against them. More, he presented Bulgarian history as a continuation of the history of Alexander the Great who was a Slav, etc. Nonsenses which resemble modern-day pseudo-history called antiquisation, popularized in Nort Macedonia. Jingiby (talk) 17:40, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are moving in the opposite direction now with the edits of the article. :) GStojanov (talk) 21:45, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ilGfCIF4Ao4C&pg=PA148#v=onepage&q=Miladinov&f=false
  2. ^ https://ces.fas.harvard.edu/people/002283-dimitar-bechev
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Miladinov_Brothers