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Why there is no sunda word mention in this page? There are some people in malaysia that claimed themselves as a descendant of sunda people. 2404:8000:1027:85F6:3439:D988:E74:C454 (talk) 16:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@AlhyarJy and MrCattttt: The current edit war surrounding the infobox parameter |population= is textbook poor editing (which both of you are notoriously best at). Read MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE first. Nothing should be in the infobox that is mot mentioned in the main text.

So first of all, create a section "Population estimates" that discusses this controversial question. Second, consider the quality of sources. Okezone is a news site, and the page (which btw is a dead link as of now) only cites a claim by Idris Haron. We can mention this claim with attribution, but without an apparent source for Idris Haron's statement, we can only consider this guesswork. The same holds for the kompas.com figure of 80%, which is not even attributed to any source, but stated as fact. Kompas is a reliable source for news, but statements about history etc. should only be used with care or ideally replaced with peer-reviewed scholarly sources.

The academic paper T. Shamsul Bahrin in Bijdragen tot de taal-, land- en volkenkunde is certainly a reliable source, but also should be used with care. It is an estimate based on extrapolation. The author himself mentions other estimates (like the one C.A. Vlieland who wrote in 1934 that "less than 60 per cent of the present Malay population is over 40 years standing in the peninsula"). Also, T. Shamsul Bahrin only talks about the percentage of people that could be counted as immigrants in their time, i.e. people born outside of Malaya, Sabah and Sarawak. It does not include assimilated descendants, which is the topic of this article. If you include people with full or partial ancestry from Indonesia (or the earlier Dutch East Indies), higher figures are quite probable. The only things is, we need better sources than Okezone and Kompas before we can turn it into infobox matter. Austronesier (talk) 11:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Beg to differ, the academic paper by T. Shamsul Bahrin is not an estimation, it is purely based on Malayan census done by British from the 19th century and 20th century. Coincidently, these were the period when the immigrants from Indonesia came en masse due to strong Economic growth. However, lets not forget that there are Malay natives in Malay peninsula before these immigrants came. They were mostly concentrated in the North and Eastern States of the peninsula (Kelantanese, Kedahan, Terengganuans, Pahang, Perakian). The only known significant migration before Brtish era, was only two, the waves of Minangkabau migration to Negeri Sembilan, and Bugis migration to Selangor. Even if you want to consider these people as "Indonesians" that have assimilated, their numbers based on the Malay population of Negeri Sembilan and Selangor in the academic paper (if you assume all of them are descendants of those immigrants, which is highly unlikely) are still numerically inferior to those Malays of the Northern and Eastern States. Thus to say that 50%-80% Malaysian Malays as "Indonesian desdendants" is plain ridiculous.(Etugrulghazi (talk) 07:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC))[reply]

What is the conclusion of this discussion? i can see nobody interested to prove their points here, still want to go hiding behind their garbage sources instead of the actual Malayan census record. I will proceed this if no one interested to dispute the census source Bodoindon (talk) 08:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Malaysian census does not record people of Indonesian descent. It records people that were born outside of Malaysia (or predecessor states/colonies). Once they're naturalized, their offspring will be recorded as Malays, which is of course formally correct since they will generally use Malay as their first language and primarily identify as Malay, and secondarily by the heritage ethnicity. So there is no other way than to do estimates, as long there are no surveys that explicitly and systematically ask respondents about their "identity" or non-autochthonous "descent". Note that intermarriage will increase the number of people with partial non-autochthonous ancestry, who may or may not consider this ancestry as essential for self-identifying. In some cases, such ancestry can be considered prestigeous (e.g. Bugis descent, especially if claims of aristocratic descent come into play), so people will tend to emphasize it; in other cases, it doesn't matter and becomes irrelevant after a one or two generations. To sum up: since the article title is "Malaysians of Indonesian descent", there is no sharply measurable population figure associated with it.

That said, the edit-warring editor that insisted on using inadequate sources (like web news sites) for the quite unmeasurable population has been blocked (and has not resurged as a sock—yet). The other edit-warring party has disappeared into inactivity. I will simply remove the population figure until somebody brings up a reliable source that actually talks about the topic of this article and contains explicit and up-to-date figures. –Austronesier (talk) 12:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The census was indeed recorded the Indonesians in Malaya/Malaysia. The so called naturalisation as you claimed is a more recent phenomenon, and did not occur significantly to Non-Malay populations prior to the formation of Malaysia. Nevertheless, its good that the incorrect information already been removed. Etugrulghazi (talk) 17:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think by "naturalisation" you mean cultural assimilation, which indeed was less marked in colonial times and the early statehood years. I meant naturalisation strictly in a legal sense. Obtaining status as resident of British Malaya or citizen of Malaysia has been possible for immigrants from Indonesia (or the Dutch East Indies) not only in recent times. –Austronesier (talk) 17:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes obtaining citizenship was possible, however doesnt necessarily they can became Malays as you mentioned. Colonial census enumerated different ethnicities of the archipelago separately from Malays until 1957, thus the data is still accurate Etugrulghazi (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In Malaysia. The word Malaysians of Indonesian descent refers to the descendants who came in the year 2000/21st century. If the lineage is like Tunku Abdul Rahman, Tunku Abdul Razak or already the third generation before the establishment of Malaysia, it is called Bumiputera, not Malaysian Indonesian descent. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 09:40, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Malaysia already set words and terms. In the ancient times there was no country but there was land and kingdom in 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. The people who came to Malaya before the existence of Malaysia/Indonesia are called Bumiputera/"Pribumi people.

Indonesians came when the country of Malaysia was established and after independence in the years 80, 90 and 2000 are called Indonesian Malaysians (Orang Indonesia Malaysia). After that they gave birth Malaysians of Indonesian descent (Orang Malaysia keturunan orang Indonesia).

Indonesians who come to work in Malaysia are called (Indonesian citizen in Malaysia) Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 05:17, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysians of Nusantara, Malay Archipelago and Southeast Asia ancestry, this word is more correct.

Malaysia has designated the term Nusantara and Malay Archipelago as the majority of Southeast Asia.Malaysia has designated the term Nusantara and Malay Archipelago as the majority of Southeast Asia.

Malaysia defines the word "Nusantara" as (between the islands), that is between the islands and the land. Malay Peninsula (Southern Thai, Southern Burma & Malaya), Champa (Vietnam, Cambodia & Laos), Singapore, Philippine, Sumatra, Java, Bali, Borneo, Sulawesi, Maluku, Timore (Nusa Tenggara & Timor Leste), & Southwest Papua.

But the point of view of Indonesians is far different, saying that the Nusantara only belongs to Indonesia Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 03:55, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Bunnypranav and Ahmad Shazlan: please use this as a discussion venue. Ahmad, please refrain from making further changes to these articles. They are far-reaching and disruptive. I'm trying to restore the original versions as best I can per WP:BRD. Iseult ^Δx talk to me 06:57, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Iseult I had only reverted Ahmad twice, and refrained from further reverts despite them popping up on my watchlist. I have asked them to use the talk page in my second edit summary, and did not do any more moves or reverts from then. Also, my reverts/moves were restoring last stable versions of the page, not trying to implement any further changes. I have followed WP:BRD to the best of my knowledge. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 07:01, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Bunnypranav: I understand. I'm just now beginning to get a handle on this. I'm not coming at you. If you look into the page move history, this is by no means the third attempted move made by Ahmad. @Ahmad Shazlan: please explain why you have repeatedly made undiscussed moves. A comment without reply is not discussion. You have made a series of highly disruptive edits and moves. Iseult ^Δx talk to me 07:03, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I already explained in the discussion section. Malaysians of Indonesian descent & Indonesian Malaysians this title is wrong. The correct title is Malaysians of Nusantara, Malay Archipelago and Southeast Asian descent because it is more comprehensive. Malaysian figure of nationalism were born in Malaysia and their parents were born in Malaysia. There is no record of them being born in Indonesia. If you want to tell the story of the people of Minang & Java who came before the era of the Malacca Sultanate & Johor-Riau Sultanate at that time there was no name of Indonesia. They have been married for centuries and live in Malaya. Now Malaya is in Malaysia not Indonesia. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 09:09, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Ahmad Shazlan I believe this page encompasses histories from multiple generations prior, not the parents/grandparents of the people listed. Descent also means ancestry iirc. Perhaps you should a read of WP:CONCISE and WP:AT before talking about the correctness of article titles. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 09:25, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why still do not understand the use of the wrong word?

I want to ask you, do Malaysian Javanese come from Indonesia? Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 10:00, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Ahmad Shazlan From what I can see in this article, yes. They are not necessarily born in Malaysia or Java, but have ancestry from Java. See Javanese Malaysians, also linked as the main article under Javanese section in this page. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 12:47, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It clearly says Javanese Malaysians not Javanese Indonesians. In the past, Javanese migrated from the island of Java to Sumatra, Malaya and Borneo. In the past there was no such thing as Malaysia or Indonesia. The title should be Malaysians of Nusantara, Malay Archipelago and Southeast Asian descent, it should be clearer. (Malaysians of Indonesian descent) means Malaysians who have an Indonesian mother or father (Indonesian Malaysians) Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 15:20, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Malaysians with descent from Java are descended from people from the Indonesian archipelago, ergo Indonesia. This practice is common; see the interchangeable use of Italy and the Italian peninsula in literature, despite Italy not existing until the late 1800s. Your use of "Malay Archipelago" is curious in particular; I see here and in other spots that the term overlaps with Nusantara, which is not a particularly common English term.

You have also, yet again, moved the pages in question while we are currently discussing it; this is edit-warring. I have restored the original state. Please observe the process of discussion per WP:BRD and do not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Iseult ^Δx talk to me 16:42, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you are already stuck with Indonesianization. The definition of Nusantara in Malaysia is not the same as in Indonesia. Indonesia claims that the Nusantara is only Indonesia. Different in Malaysia include Malay Peninsular (Southern Thai, Southern Burma and Malaya), Khmer/Champ (Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos) Singapore, Borneo, Sumatra, Java, Bali, Sulawesi, Maluku, Timor and Southwest Papua. Indonesian Archipelago is news created. The old name was Indian Archipelago. In the beginning there was the Malay Archipelago then developed into Nusantara, Insulindia, Indian Archipelago and East India (Southeast Asia) Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 17:21, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accept you saying Javanese Malaysians come from Indonesia. Our ancestry comes from the island of Java, not Indonesia! I am Javanese Malaysian, my parents and grandparents are Malaysian. But my nephew (Indonesian Malaysians/Malaysians of Indonesian descent) because my sister married an Indonesian man. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 17:34, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for engaging with me here and on my talk; let's discuss the dispute here. This is how we on Wikipedia work best: through constructive dialogue seeking a consensus. It may not be a happy consensus, but the consensus is what we live by. Now that you're aware of the 3RR policy, please take care not to engage in edit wars of any kind, even slow-motion ones.

I had a hard time understanding your message on my talk, which appears to be the same as the message in the section below, so I'll ignore it; in any case, the general gist of it seems to be the same as your replies above. I'll summarize those to make sure we're all on the same page:

You, as a proud Malaysian, hold that you and your people descend not from Indonesia (the country) but from the island of Java. Java exists within the Malay and Indonesian archipelagos, also known, not in English, as Nusantara. The Malaysian definition of Nusantara is more expansive than the Indonesian definition, referring to the Malay as opposed to the Indonesian archipelago.

You hold that the order of term creation is as follows: Malay archipelago, then various names such as Nusantara and Indian archipelago, then Indonesian archipelago.

To this I say: I appreciate that this is a sensitive subject, with nationalism and international conflict at hand. But per WP:COMMONNAME, we must hew to the most common usage of the subject in English-language sources, not Indonesian or Malaysian sources. So Nusantara, being uncommon in English-language sources, is right out. Then, with regards to the placement of Java within both the Malay and Indonesian archipelagos, it's a question of common treatment, again, in reliable English-language sources. Are there such sources to support a move? Also, Southeast Asia is by far too general for this article subject.

As an aside, I don't believe the term "Indian archipelago" was common usage for this region; I believe it's "East Indies". In any case, we privilege contemporary over dated sources and thus term use.

@Bunnypranav: I'd love to get your thoughts on this matter, as well as whether you have suggestions regarding editors and WikiProjects relevant to this with more expertise. I'd like to avoid getting twenty editors in this thread, though; this makes a potential RfC or 3O down the line difficult to get started. Iseult ^Δx talk to me 19:55, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this detailed description of policies, and a summary of the dispute at hand Iseult, you have put this better than I could. From my understanding, Malaysians with descent from Java are descended from people from the Indonesian archipelago, ergo Indonesia. is a particular line of yours that I would like to stress on for Ahmad Shazlan, as well as , taking into account the usage of terms in English language sources. Regarding the page title, WP:CONCISE is also something we need to keep in mind.

For WikiProjects that may be able to comment on this, I see the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Malaysia as the first obvious venues, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southeast Asia since we Ahmed mentions inclusion of Southeast Asia in the title. As we are discussing about Javanese Malaysians, it may be worth informing Talk:Javanese Malaysians, since any change should also affect that page. I'll leave the notifying of these venues to you Iseult, since you mentioned about avoiding too many editors right now. ~/Bunnypranav:<ping> 07:04, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This happened in 1980, 1990, 2000 and above: Malaysian Indonesians (Orang Malaysia Indonesia/Malindo)

• One of the parents has an Indonesian identity card and lives in Indonesia.
• Also one of his parents is Malaysian.
• His children also have Indonesian identity cards.

Indonesian Malaysians (Orang Indonesia Malaysia/Indo Malaysia)

• One of them parents has an Malaysian identiti card and lives in Malaysia.
• Also one of his parents is Indonesian.
• His children also have Malaysian identity cards.

Indonesians of Malaysian descent (Orang Indonesia keturunan Malaysia)

• The children of Malaysian Indonesians. They live in Indonesia.

Malaysians of Indonesian descent (Orang Malaysia keturunan Indonesia)

• The children of Indonesian Malaysians. They live in Malaysia.

This happened 1980 and centuries ago: Malaysians of Malay Archipelago, Nusantara and Southeast Asia descent (Orang Malaysia Keturunan Kepulauan Melayu, Nusantara dan Asia Tenggara).

• This lineage existed before the 20th century. So when Malaysia was established, they were indeed Malaysian citizens, not Indonesians. Because they were born in Malaysia.
• Javanese Malaysians
• Bugis Malaysians
• Siamese Malaysians
• Cambodian Malaysians
• Minang Malaysians
• Banjarese Malaysians

Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 08:40, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]