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The Alpin Lake of Gramos is located at an altitude of 2,375 m, on the Albanian side of the Gramos mountain.Ilirio'starja (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lake Drakolimni or Gistova is located in Greece as all the international maps indicate. The sun rises from the East and sets from the West. Geographical Revisionism is not accepted. Changing the border pyramids it wont change the borders. As we talking Google map has already being informed of what has happened. Facts are sacred comments are free.

1) https://wego.here.com/?map=40.36458,20.79138,17.96

2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/40.36486/20.77759&layers=P

3)https://earth.google.com/web/@40.24867303,20.72206932,1587.12013806a,430.59951344d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=CgRCAggBOgMKATBCAggASg0I____________ARAA Aetolia (talk) 18:12, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know if online maps are enough to support this according to WP standards, we do have Template:Cite Google Maps. It would be best if it was mentioned in some sort of border treaty or by an Albanian government institution. Lots of low quality sources say it's Greek, haven't seen any claiming it's Albanian.

P.S. Just checked, Google Maps has it on both sides with the border running straight through it. Seems like shared control is the most likely truth.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 22:37, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, international boundaries, since 1914 all maps and all resources available in the world place the borders as they are today in the Balkan region between Greece and Albania. Albanian revisionism is something that has started in the area after 2000. They even claim that Alexander the great was Albanian. More precisely Lake Gistova is called as well as Drakolimni but has no Albanian name as it is currently written and claimed. Above all to prove what I claim about the name Drakolimni it is in Wikipedia as an article well. (1) Therefore we have two articles with the same subject.

In addition the borders between Greece and Albania as we talk are marked with small movable pyramids that have been moved lately towards Greece. The changes were report to google map and slowly from Albanian lake it has moved to half and half curently Athens is in consultation o the issue with google map. All what I am describing is in the Hellenic media news as well.(2) Therefore you have to be critical with claims without substantiation from the Albanian revisionist side/sources and Wikipedia has to create a security apparatus with viable English sources/links that checks claims with legit references. Thank you for your attention.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakolimni

2) https://epirusgate.gr/i-google-metetrepse-ti-drakolimni-tou-grammou-gkistova-se-alvaniki/ See also,https://primenews.press/i-alvania-fainetai-na-ekmetallevetai-mia-sovari-koutoprovokatsia-me-stocho-na-diekdikisei-elliniko-edafos/ Aetolia (talk) 14:27, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is important to know we cannot cite Wikipedia on wikipedia. The Drakolimni page also isn't very good with only one source on the lakes (and one on the biodiversity) and I wouldn't call it a high quality source. It's also important Lake Gristova isn't called Drakolimni, since that's a collective name for a bunch of lakes, of which Gristova is one, so we don't have a duplicate page. However I do think it might be possible to merge all Dracolimni lakes into one article. Those other two sources are quite interesting, I think it is best to wait for google to respond and see what they have to say, or see some reporting on the issue outside of Albania and Greece.

I could perhaps try to look into it more myself, but I'm already busy with another politically controversial project so I don't have too much energy right now. I would ask for help in the Wikiprojects Greece and Albania. (I don't think Wikiproject lakes would be very interested, but who knows.)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 14:42, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How many pictures or international sites non Greek or international agreements I have to document to prove that Lake Gistova or Drakolimni is the same thing and that lake Guistova drakolimniis located in Greece? If I start claiming that I, as a person I am you are you going to believe it? I personally think so that this is becoming a little funny when it comes of not believing international magazines sources and maps and European and international agreements.

Facts are Sacred Comments are Free

https://stock.adobe.com/search?k=drakolimni

https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

https://www.shutterstock.com/pl/editorial/image-editorial/panoramic-aerial-view-drone-drakolimni-lake-tymfi-11855634a

https://powertraveller.com/papigko-2-day-drakolimni-and-voidomatis-springs-hiking-tour/ Aetolia (talk) 14:59, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:RS on reliable sources and WP:OR on original research. Drawing conclusions from pictures is called original research. I'm not here to take a stand in any political conflict, I'm just here to keep editors following the rules of wikipedia.

If you have a link to those international agreements than things could be solved very quickly.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 15:22, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

Official website of the Greek National Tourism Organisation More official than that it cannot be done. Aetolia (talk) 16:19, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, more official can be done... Like an official border treaty ratified by both countries. Like it seems Albania and Greece have a border conflict, so the Greek government would of course state their position.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 16:22, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

https://shop.geospatial.com/Your authoritative source for global mapping, geospatial data and GIS services That is more official than google map...

Next:Something that Defense and Intel services use...not Wikipedia O guess?

https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/8S7S7J39TQXX4QADMPWT4Q9CC4/Greece-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps Aetolia (talk) 17:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm no expert on the use of maps for sources, for these things I would highly recommend getting editors who are more experienced involved in this. I guess English isn't your first language, so sometimes it is difficult to understand what you exactly want from me. I highly advice you to ask someone on wikiproject greece and/or albania for help on this. Else try asking at the Teahouse.

Since this does seem to be getting some news attention outside of Greece, for example here is an Albanian Voxnews article, it shouldn't be hard to find people who would be interested in it.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 17:39, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

English is my first language. Sometime now I am giving you the facts as they are and you cannot read them correctly. As you previously said you cannot read/comprehend maps and what they mean, yet you can read the articles that have been written by non Greek writers. Also, I forwarded the Greek Ministry of tourism site. Their info is in English and also Greece belongs to the EU. I don't know what else to tell you or do if you are not an expert on reading articles or lacking skills reading maps.

Nevertheless, I have already forwarded Maps, Intel sources with maps (official ones) and tourist Sites that have been for there for years. Aetolia (talk) 18:27, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not denying any facts or sources. The fact you are not getting that is what is making me doubt that English is your first language. I am saying that I don't know the precise details of how to use these sources and how to go around the problems of bias in these situations. The problem is not what the sources say, it is whether they are admissible on wikipedia or if they are admissible on wikipedia without the other side of the argument. (I.E. ignoring a dispute and only presenting one side of the argument)

Therefor once again: I advice you to talk with people from wikiproject Greece, Albania or maybe even lakes and ask them if they know someone who is experienced with a situation like this.

I cannot help you much right now, I don't even know what you want. There seems to be an international conflict going on of which I do not know enough context to make bold edits.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 19:39, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I want nothing from you or wikipedia, but just to make clear that prior to changing the article that dealt with Lake Gistova that someone was using revisionist policies and claiming that lake Gistova is in Albania. I am a security analyst and that's why I can find info on the matter at any given moment. I present facts not claims. All the info is admissible to Wikipedia if you know about maps and geography and history. They are old and new, and above all accepted in the International arena.

The sun rises from the east and sets from the West. In addition the Albanian lakename (Liqeni i Gramozit) never existed in history but suddenly appeared on this site claiming areas that don't belong to Albania. Yes, I have more sources and more live Intel maps on this issue if needed. Facts are Sacred and Comments are Free. Thank you for your attention. Aetolia (talk) 20:56, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Google map has made a mistake and from Albanian lake moved to half and half but it is on the Greek side. The foreign ministryis working on this issue with google map. Facts are sacred comments are free. There is an article of Drakolimni in Wikipedia which is lake Gistova ...The same thing

1) https://wego.here.com/?map=40.36458,20.79138,17.96

2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/40.36486/20.77759&layers=P

3)https://earth.google.com/web/@40.24867303,20.72206932,1587.12013806a,430.59951344d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=CgRCAggBOgM Aetolia (talk) 14:30, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

Official website of the Greek National Tourism Organisation More official than that it cannot be done Aetolia (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lake Gistova or Drakolimni (Greek: Λίμνη Γκιστόβα) is an alpine lake in the Kastoria regional unit[1], northwestern Greece.[2] [3] It is located at an elevation of about 2,350 metres (7,710 ft), on the Gramos mountain.[4] The nearest village is Gramos in Greece. The last years the lake through social media and websites took more attention and more people come to visit it.[5]

References 1 "Αλπικές Λίμνες Γκιστόβα και Μουτσάλια". Digital Kastoria (in Greek). 2021-06-06. Retrieved 2025-02-24.See also:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakolimni, See also:https://www.travel.gr/en/experiences-ee/unknown-greece/smolikas-drakolimni-sub-alpine-lake-with-wild-orchids-on-greeces-second-tallest-mountain/ see also:https://elxis.com/have-you-heard-of-greeces-dragon-lake/ see also:https://lifessmallworldsbig.com/hiking-the-dragon-lake-drakolimni-greece/ see also:https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/drakolimni see also: https://www.easyreserve.com/travel-ideas/2019/greece/activities/hiking/drakolimni see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42mbOMLRJos see also: https://olympusmountaineering.com/2017/08/23/mount-tymfi-pindos-thru-hike-part-2-dragon-lake-drakolimni/ see also: https://www.tripadvisor.com/AttractionProductReview-g970274-d25437232-Dragon_lake_Trekking_from_Mikro_Papigko_to_Drakolimni-Papigko_Zagorohoria_Ioannina.html 2 Bledzki, Leszek (2016). Freshwater Crustacean Zooplankton of Europe: Cladocera & Copepoda (Calanoida, Cyclopoida) Key to species identification, with notes on ecology, distribution, methods and introduction to data analysis. Springer. p. 886.

3"Mastorochoria: The Ultimate Greek Winter Getaway". athens-express.gr. 2020-11-25. Retrieved 2022-03-19.

4 "Δρακόλιμνη Γράμμου (Γκιστόβα) (2350μ)". www.konitsa.gr (in Greek). Retrieved 2022-01-09. 5 "Η ΔΡΑΚΟΛΙΜΝΗ ΤΟΥ ΓΡΑΜΜΟΥ (ΓΚΙΣΤΟΒΑ) ΣΤΑ 2.350 ΜΕΤΡΑ". OlaDeka (in Greek). 2018-06-11. Retrieved 2022-03-19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aetolia (talk • contribs) 17:16, 24 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]