The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Should the "Controversies and incidents" section contain a section on Israel votes and media reports in connection to this which relate to more individuals than expected or individuals which would not usually have voted. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 16:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that as a prominent controversy is related to the Israel-Hamas war, it is subject to WP:ARBECR. Accordingly, accounts with fewer than 500 edits and 30 days' tenure may not participate. Any comment violating ARBECR may be removed by any editor, and edit warring will not be tolerated. Please keep the discussion respectful: comment on the matter in question, not on other editors. Thank you. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 17:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Include per the already above section Yoyo360 (talk) 16:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Include as it definitely impacted the results. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you prove that with reliable neutral verifiable sources? If not it can't be implied through wikivoice. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 18:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't mean to prove it or to have that exact wording in the article, but when there are neutral verifiable sources that many non-Eurovision fans voted, and the fact that every vote counts, it is extremely likely that that was the case. Again, not necessarily saying that should be in the article though Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do you or the publications for that matter know they are "non-Eurovision fans"? Additionally wikivoice cannot go on speculation re: "it is extremely likely that that was the case". It feels like journalistic license is being employed and potentially so crystal ball activities. It also feels like original though from the publications to come to the conclusions that they have. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are reliable and citing officials from the israeli government. All confirm without a doubt that a campaign for votes happened. This is not subjective. This is factual. The matter at hand here is to decide whether to mention this campaign in the article and a former discussion has already been made. Yoyo360 (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no way to know "All confirm without a doubt that a campaign for votes happened. This is not subjective. This is factual" That all falls under WP:Original Research as it has drawn a conclusion from them which is not necessarily one supported widely. It draws the reader to conclude the votes for Israel are some how tainted or that rules were broken. Which a non-neutral POV.

Nowhere is it stated any actual rules were broken, or that mass voting by bots happened or similar. It just seems people in other countries got messages about the Israel entry and decided to exercise a vote this year. It doesn't feel like anything more here, the claims additionally feel extremely tabloid. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, the matter at hand is whether or not israel had a voting campaign. And the answer is undoubtedly yes, the several sources provided in the former section confirm it, citing a government official. The impact on the voting is not the topic of our discussion. Yoyo360 (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issue I have is a misuse of wikivoice and the non neutral implications of the section. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, as long as we use the sources provided in the former section, the inclusion won't cause a problem as we will just be relaying a fact: Israel campaigned for votes. It is factual. The fact that you see non neutral implications behind this type of sentence is problematic because there is not. And if you think that there's an indirect implication that israel got their points from this campaign, read the sources and ponder one minute... because isn't that what our sources exactly imply already? Including the israeli source ynet. Yoyo360 (talk) 05:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If all of the RS support there being a campaign to mobilise votes for Israel for political reasons then I don't see how it's an issue to state it in Wikivoice. AlexandraAVX (talk) 13:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an explanation from a reliable source that it was just turnout, ability to vote multiple times without restrictions, and lots of other options.] Not some nefarious political campaign at the heart of why Israel polled well. Only having Israel is the big bad wolf style article belies the more benign and boring reasons set out in the article above. Also remember how in 2016 Eurovision changed to its current format of voting because it was all neighbours voting for each other. This is a storm in a teacup to claim that people voting en mass and multiple times is new. it also belies that mundane reasons exist as well as the nice sexy claims of the big bad Israel trying to rig the contest.

[1] PicturePerfect666 (talk) 14:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That RS doesn't say there was no campaign, it explains how low support in numbers for a contestant can still result in a unusually good result for them. If anything the source explains how the voting system and the nature of public votes could enable a campaign.

Second, we have to take into consideration 'motivated reasoning'. "We see this in politics when it comes to turnout in elections and turnout in referendums", explains Cunningham. "When we see turnout in referendums become very low we notice that the results become quite skewed. If turnout in a referendum gets lower than 35% the people who are more motivated, more interested, tend to influence the outcome a little bit more".
AlexandraAVX (talk) 14:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No source is going to say “there was no campaign” that is like asking for proof of a negative. What it shows is not all RS are singing the same hymn on Israel and there are plenty of other valid reasons for the televote results beyond the claims of what are essentially Israel rigged it. I think there is a potential blinding to stuff outside of the Israel contentiousness when boring and benign reasons also exist. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 14:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it is to be included the boring and benign reasons need the same weight on the section as the juicy and sensational claims. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thing is, once again, these are not claims. They're facts. Several sources, including some coming directly from Israel, cite an Israeli government official and diplomat who stated the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs campaigned. Some go as far as detailing they shot videos in at least ten languages demanding people to vote and the whole thing getting 14+ million views. Facts. Not claims. Yoyo360 (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Claims of “these are facts” are unhelpful as you don’t know that, no one here does. All anyone knows is what is reported so a better statement is “as reported in [sources]” not “these are facts” the latter implies infallibility of the sources. Additionally alternate reasons in an RS has been presented. Wikivoice cannot only give one side, as it currently seems to claim Israel votes were nefarious as opposed to the boring and benign reasons which are also a possibility for the televote results. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 14:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No one can know 100% and there are no infallible sources, but we still write statements of fact in Wikivoice. We don't keep repeating "According to Charles Darwin, humans evolved from apes" any time we talk about evolution, even if plenty of people pushing WP:FRINGE theories think it will be disproven any day now.

If there's RS reporting that there was a government-sanctioned campaign that didn't actually exist then there would be plenty of reason for other RS to report on how that isn't true or it was uncertain/unclear. If there was a significant disagreement on whether there was or wasn't a government-sanctioned campaign then we should be more careful about using wikivoice. In the absence of any reliable or significant claim that a campaign didn't exist I don't see why we can't state it in wikivoice. AlexandraAVX (talk) 18:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that the Irish source from a professor is a fringe theory. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 19:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thing is we are talking about a campaign for votes. Which according to numerous sources, definitely happened. Which is worth inclusion. We are not talking about how israel got their results, which would very much indeed necessitate all possibilities to be accounted for. We are talking specifically about whether or not to mention the campaign. Which, once again, did happen according to several sources. No matter its influence, the existence of this campaign has been established. So your Irish Independent reference is irrelevant in this specific context. Yoyo360 (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Include per others and the already-had discussions { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 20:34, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Include, obviously. We've already been over this. This is not a proper RfC. See WP:RFC, in particular WP:RFCBEFORE. RfCs are for getting broader community input to help resolve matters for which no consensus can be determined after extensive "local" discussion. But there is no failure to come to a consensus here. "One editor doesn't like the result" is not a consensus failure, and RfCs are not for "asking the other parent" in hopes of getting an answer one might like better. (Aside: RfCs are also for seeking broad community input, from the start, on a proposal that has site-wide implications, like changing a policy or introducing a new guideline. But that is of course not applicable to a minor discussion like this.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

include, as I have mentioned in older discussion. A confirmed vote campaign with government involvement taking place in a song contest with huge and international cultural impact is an incidence of major importance, and something uncommon for the ESC. Inclusion can be warranted, in my opinion. Piccco (talk) 16:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Include. The issue is not that participating countries advertise their contest entries. That's a no-brainer. The issue is that a government is involved with and admitted that there is a campaign by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs to vote for them. “The truth is that there was obviously an organized, dedicated effort by Israel supporters to give their votes to Golan… and it clearly drew votes from many who don’t otherwise tune into the Eurovision each year.”

Include per the previous discussion. Also, as SMcCandlish mentioned, I'm still confused about the need to open a RfC when consensus was already pretty clear. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 23:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Include: The exact wording to be added hasn't been fully discussed, but it is clear that there is support for including in the earlier discussion. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]