Langbahn Team – Weltmeisterschaft

Talk:Brothers of Italy

On neo-fascism, again

@Autospark:, @Vacant0:, @Checco:, as no-one posted any disputing scholars, I’ll go ahead and share two:

"Brothers of Italy is not fascist. Looking at FdI's ideological core, we see that the party’s acceptance of democracy, and – especially – electoral legitimacy, is sincere. This means we cannot label the party, or its leader, either fascist or neo-fascist. FdI also supports programmatic proposals that contrast with the historical pillars of fascism. This includes, for example, embracing many cornerstones of neoliberalism. Neither does it seem useful to categorise FdI as post-fascist. Almost 30 years have passed since the birth of AN, and although the process of detachment from fascism presents several grey areas, a large part of FdI leadership has socialised into a party that renounces the fascist legacy. However, elements of nostalgia survive in party elites and sympathisers."

"We can better characterise FdI as a populist radical right-wing actor. Such actors do not frame their political project in the name of the authority of chosen elites. Nor are they concerned with restoring the alleged value of the ultra-nation. In contrast, although they don't want to abolish representative democracy, they are certainly sceptical about political and societal pluralism.”

”And conceptually overstretching the term fascism runs an additional risk. A misleadingly wide understanding would prevent us from identifying the authentic neo-fascist groups operating in the public sphere. In Italy, actors such as CasaPound and Forza Nuova have reclaimed their link with historical fascism. Such actors are also prepared to use violent persecution against discriminated minorities (e.g. migrants) and their political opponents. These groups might see in radical-right parties – and specifically in FdI – an institutional interlocutor. This is precisely why scholars and the media should focus on the relationships and structural ambiguity that radical-right parties maintain with fascist groupuscules.”

"Our plea to resist attaching post- or neo-fascist labels to the radical right is not because we underestimate the threat it poses. Quite the contrary. We suggest that rather than making vague, misplaced accusations of fascism, journalists and social scientists should carefully indicate the threats contemporary radical-right actors pose to the separation of powers, to individual rights, and to minority groups."

Gianluca Piccolino Postdoctoral Fellow, Istituto Politica, Diritto, Sviluppo (Dirpolis), Scuola Superiore Sant’Anna, Pisa. Leonardo Puleo, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, CEVIPOL Institut d'études européennes, Université libre de Bruxelles You can read the whole article in the attached link; [1] BastianMAT (talk) 22:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the party is not neo-fascist. In my view, it is not even far-right, but a mainstream conservative party with populist overtones. Of course, the party has post-fascist roots, but its present reality, also thanks to the influx of several Christian democrats, liberals and even former Socialists, has nothing to do with neo-fascism. --Checco (talk) 17:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@User:ZlatanSweden10: To answer your question, there is a weak consensus on having "neo-fascism" in the infobox (see above). Clearly, it is something so wrong that needs to be re-discussed and changed at some point. Until then, we need to respect consensus. --Checco (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. I only disputed it as I remember so many disputes and edits happening prior, during, and after the 2022 Italian general election. But could someone at least recover the "A" footnote? I feel that is vital in clarifying the party's stance and etc. ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure that the footnote A is part of the current consensus, probably not. --Checco (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've recovered it. I noticed the footnote already mentioned neo-fascism so is it really necessary to have it in the infobox when its already mentioned in the footnote? ZlatanSweden10 (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As long as "neo-fascism" is mentioned in the infobox, the footnote is redundant. Of course, I am in favour of re-discussing the issue of "neo-fascism" in the infobox, especially after User:BastianMAT's insights. To claim that FdI is neo-fascist is almost a joke and the above RfC closure is weak. --Checco (talk) 15:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, once again, in the above RfC there was only a weak consensus on adding "neo-fascism" among the party's ideologies in the infobox. Since then, other voices were raised against that (User:BastianMAT's and User:Holtz941's are just the latter two), as describing the party as neo-fascist seems a joke, give the big-tent nature of it and the countless number of members hailing from centrist parties. Surely, the party's has post-fascist roots, but now only minority factions have links to neo-fascism. This said, clearly neo-fascism is not the main ideology of the party, not even for those who proposed adding it in the RfC. Let's have it as third ideology, after national conservatism and right-wing populism. Hopefully, people will also soon realise that describing the party as neo-fascist is completely wrong, so that the above consensus can be changed for the better. In the meantime, consensus should be respected in full. --Checco (talk) 14:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neo-fascists are the majority of the party. We don't go by editors personal opinions. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 16:36, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Majority of the party? You are suggesting that at least 20% of the Italian electorate is neo-fascists. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 21:11, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This looks like a much better source. Has anyone actually read the current ones? "The Rise of the Far Right in Europe: Populist Shifts and 'Othering'" mentions FdI *once*. only to say that it's similar to Front National (which wikipedia does not consider neo-fascist). "The Routledge Companion to Italian Fascist Architecture: Reception and Legacy" mentions Rampelli to say that he's a member of a neo-fascist party, but does not make any analysis of the party. Likewise, "Mussolini and the Eclipse of Italian Fascism" mentions Fratelli d'Italia in a footnote out of 300 pages. I do not have access to the other 2, but I would suspect a similar thinness of argument. Riffraff (talk) 18:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, the term "fascist" is, for lack of a better word, incredibly vibes-based. Definitions vary for it immensely. Editors have to come to a consensus over whether we will use a "strict" definition of Fascism, including the dictatorships of Italy, Germany, Spain and little else, or a "broad" definition, which would include the populist right with anti-democratic undertones such as AfD, FdI, etc. Maxibonilz (talk) 19:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Checco has recently attempted to override the consensus of the RFC and whitewash the patty by emphasizing "national conservatism" and "right-wing populism" in the lead over "neo-fascism." This is despite a widespread consensus of editors that neo-fascism should be emphasized above. (See above.) ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 14:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I just wrote above, it is you who are misinterpreting the (weak) consensus that was reached. --Checco (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Probably moved by POV instincts, this new user has been harming the article with successive edits. Not good. --Checco (talk) 13:12, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, he has been harming the article with his edits. (Incidentally, I am now of the option that footnotes should not be used in this Infobox, or any Infobox ideally; the information listed should be in the lede, with reliable references to back it up.)-- Autospark (talk) 13:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If they're a neo-fascist organization than of course that takes preference over their other positions. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 15:56, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is precisely the point. FdI is not a neo-fascist party, but a conservative party with post-fascist roots. Most sources describe it as national-conservative and right-wing populist. Of course, several sources explain that the party has post-fascist or neo-fascist roots. There are almost no sources stating that FdI is primarily neo-fascist, let alone a full-fledged neo-fascist party. This said, the (weak) consensus achieved through the above RfC was to add "neo-fascism" among the ideologies in the infobox, not to describe the party primarily or solely as neo-fascist. While I oppose the current consensus, we should all adhere to it until a new consensus is formed. --Checco (talk) 17:10, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If anything its more post-fascist than neo-fascist, and even then that's a rough label. Truly, they are as "fascist" as the Republican Party, which is to say they aren't fascist, but the left-wing media will say that anyway. YT DomDaBomb20 (talk) 16:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We go by what quality citations state. There is a widespread agreement in the academic literature that Brothers of Italy is fascist. It's not up to editor's opinions.
Many historians do describe the Republicans as having fascist-related factions. So if anything that just bolsters my point. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 16:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As User:Riffraff and User:YT DomDaBomb20, as well as other users before, correctly pointed out, there is really no ground to objectively describe FdI as a neo-fascist party. The connection with fascism is that FdI's sixth precursor was the National Fascist Party, but then there was the Republican Fascist Party, the Italian Movement of Social Unity, the Italian Social Movement, National Alliance and even a merger with more centrist parties into The People of Freedom. This said, as far as consensus is not changed (as I hope it will), we have to leave "neo-fascism" in the infobox, but let me also point out that the achieved consensus does not mandate anything else, let alone describing the party as primarily neo-fascist. That is why I am going to fix the article, that was harmed by unilateral edits, not grounded in consensus. --Checco (talk) 07:00, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thumbs up from me. There was no reason to keep labeling Fratelli d'Italia as neo-fascist, it was a truly empty label made up by their opponents. Out of party membership, I can only think of one or two previously actual neo-fascist affiliated members, 99% of the party is more mainstream conservative. YT DomDaBomb20 (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After following this page for several months, reviewing each side with utmost sincerity; taking into account the argument that states the Fratelli d'Italia party as being neo-fascist in relation to some members having 'Fascist-roots' - I can without a doubt say that there is no sufficient evidence to conclude 'neo-fascism' as a core ideology of this party. The claim has been loosely presented with no real source used to substantiate it. That said, unless one was to bring some new revelation to the table, it would be impossible for me not to agree with Checco in his analysis: "FdI is not a neo-fascist party, but a conservative party with post-fascist roots. Most sources describe it as national-conservative and right-wing populist." 2A0E:CB01:27:E400:55DB:9F4A:9AD0:D19D (talk) 20:11, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's no evidence for that statement being the case. Neo-fascist should stay. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 16:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You could articulate better than this. There is no evidence of the opposite, actually. --Checco (talk) 16:38, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Check the citations. High quality sources consistently list the party as neo-fascist. English isn't my general, first language. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Plus, I see that you have little Wikipedia experience, but you have been already involved in much edit warring. You should stop doing this, respect consensus ("neo-fascism" mentioned in the infobox, not as first, main or only ideology) and avoid adding contentious contents. --Checco (talk) 16:44, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My editing experience has nothing to do about whether it should be mentioned.
The consensus from the RFC was to include neo-fascist. Just because you dislike what quality sources say doesn't mean you can albritary decide to exclude from lead. ShirtNShoesPls (talk) 16:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the RfC. It was on whether including "neo-fascism in the infobox (ideology parameter) and remove it from the footnote". That is our current consensus. There is no consensus on having neo-fascism as primary ideology and mentioning in the lead section. --Checco (talk) 19:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please also note that the lead section is articulate and includes also "neo-fascist" as one of the several classifications given to the party. As you can see, while I disagree on describing the party as neo-fascist, I am not changing anything that is supported by consensus, namely "neo-fascism" in the infobox and a broad description of the party in the lead section. Quite contrarily, you are totally misinterpreting the RfC's outcome and you are edit warring as usual. --Checco (talk) 19:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is absurd, the party is not neo fascist, do you guys even know what that word actually means? Norschweden (talk) 22:52, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with User:Norschweden and I hope we can soon achieve a new consensus on the matter. --Checco (talk) 05:30, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Braganza (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. 172.59.201.7 (talk) 00:05, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 21:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can we not just put
Factions:
Neo-fascism
as can be seen on Republican Party (United States), Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle and Workers' Party (Brazil). Although I don't see any factions under Brothers of Italy#Ideology and factions that can be described as neo-fascst, surely this would be an improvement as they are clearly not aligned with neo-fascist parties in Italy, or, if you're to be very cynical, not as overt. Alexanderkowal (talk) 22:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry but there is ZERO EVIDENCE provided that Brothers of Italy is a neo-fascist party. As an authoritarian ideology, they are expected to carry out the policies within that ideology, which they have not. They have instead shown conservative policies, but is it such to label them as neo-fascist? What is concrete evidence behind this claim? VosleCap (talk) 19:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@VosleCap I imagine it is multiple news articles outlining fascist sympathisers in FdI and that it could be cited heavily as a side note Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if there is that, is the presence of fascist sympathisers enough to label this as neo-fascist? I don't think and I don't recall active fascist activists being elected to senior posts in the party. They are an extremely small minority, and although there are not written rules, they are heavily sanctioned. VosleCap (talk) 19:50, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@VosleCap I agree, however it is worth a mention in the article Alexanderkowal (talk) 19:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right however inserting neo-fascism as a main ideology is just incorrect and misleading VosleCap (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@VosleCap if you want to contest it, ping the main contributors (go history, page statistics) and debunk the citations to neo-fascism in the third paragraph. My point would be that they don't refer to Meloni's tenure Alexanderkowal (talk) 20:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As this discussions (and previous discussions as well) show, there is (no longer) consensus for "neo-fascism" in the infobox. --Checco (talk) 06:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco I don’t think mine and Vosle’s scepticism is enough to remove it due to it being referenced in the third paragraph Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If my point about the references not referring to the Meloni era is valid, then perhaps this would be best in the info box.
Historically:
Neo-fascism
Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not just two, but several users have expressed their opposition to neo-fascism. And the party has never been neo-fascism. It was established in 2012 as a national-conservative party in the mould of its predecessor, national-conservative National Alliance. To be clear, while the article's body includes every possible information and view on the party, "neo-fascism" should not be mentioned any way in the infobox. --Checco (talk) 07:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco then you need to address the references for neo-fascism Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:35, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco I think my edit represented reality quite well and it was well cited. The party is a textbook example of Post-fascism Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AlexanderkowalAre you referring to post-fascism or Neo-fascism? Different concepts; one more a movement, the description of its roots, the other an ideology. Anyway, I agree with @Checco, while the article body should address the references to the party being described as neofascist by various sources, it’s not the primary ideology of the party and should not be in the Infobox.— Autospark (talk) 10:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Autospark please have a look at my edit, I think it was correct Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Autospark I would describe post-fascism as a movement of ideologies so I do think it belongs in the ideology section if it is applicable. The Italian article has post-fascism in the info box, not neo fascism Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just letting you know (sorry if this sounds pass-agro) if there's no response within like a week I'll reapply my edit. Obviously take your time to reply, I'm sure everyone's busy Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I oppose both "neo-fascism" and "post-fascism" in the infobox. The party is not neo-fascist and most sources do not support that claim: it is fine to have all the possible sources and descriptions in the article's body, particularly in the "ideology" section, but "neo-fascism" is not one of the party's main ideologies. Technically, the party is also not a post-fascist party: the MSI was a post-fascist (and arguably neo-fascist) party, but after that there has been AN and the PdL, while FdI is not the direct successor of a post-fascist (let alone neo-fascist) party. Moreover, "post-fascism" is not an ideology, but a movement or, better, a phase. It is time to adapt our consensus to reality. --Checco (talk) 04:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco ideology is quite a broad term, I do think post-fascism belongs in that section even if it is more of a movement. I agree neo-fascism shouldn’t be there. Can you please look at the citations I had for post-fascism in my edit. I think since the Italian page on this includes post-fascism on the ideology section, we should be inclined to as well because they are more likely to have much more sources/accurate sources. Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is OK to mention "post-fascism", as well as "neo-fascism", in the "ideology" section, while I oppose it in the infobox. --Checco (talk) 07:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco I do disagree as, for people just glancing at the page, I think it gives a very accurate representation of the party today and there are quite a lot of sources that back this up. Would I be allowed to add Italian language sources? Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco I think you’re going to struggle to convince other editors that there shouldn’t be a reference to fascism int he info box, and I think post fascism is a good compromise here. Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:40, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Post-fascism" is not an ideology in itself, but a political movement as such, and it is already in the article lede. No one is denying the party's roots in the MSI-DN/AN.-- Autospark (talk) 14:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Autospark everything in the info box is also in the lead.
From Gáspár Miklós Tamás:
’’I have coined the term post-fascism to describe a cluster of policies, practices, routines and ideologies which can be observed everywhere in the contemporary world.’’
I can’t find anything referring to it as a movement, it seems instead to be a cluster of ideologies and is therefore an ideology in itself (same as national conservatism), therefore I do think it belongs in the info box should there be enough citations supporting it.
Please let me know if this satisfies your point.
Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco the reason I edited was because I haven’t had a response and I felt my above post was quite watertight. I can't find any new sources that describe FdI as neo-fascist, especially since they've come into government. Please let me know what you take issue with. Alexanderkowal (talk) 09:35, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current consensus is to have "neo-fascism" in the infobox. That was the result of a RfC. Personally I oppose that consensus for the reasons explained above and several users have come out against "neo-fascism". That is good and I hope the we can soon settle on removing "neo-fascism" from the infobox. This said, there is no consensus on having "post-fascism", instead. You are the only one proposing that. While I think that "neo-fascism" is not an ideology that should be mentioned in the infobox, at least it is an ideology, while "post-fascism" is not even that. --Checco (talk) 13:29, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco my bad I didn’t realise there’d been an RfC. I won’t change it again. Do you have an idea for when there could be another RfC, as post-fascism wasn’t an option? Idk the convention. Would it be possible to do a quick vote, so it’s less time consuming? From looking at the RfC I do think it could’ve served as a good compromise, that maybe people weren’t aware of because it’s a bit more fringe.
Post-fascism is an ideology, my comment above has an extract from the creator of the term in which he explains it is a collection of ideologies and practices, much like national conservatism is. I haven’t found anything referring to it as anything else, it certainly isn’t a movement. https://autonomies.org/2018/11/gaspar-miklos-tamas-post-fascism/ Also the Italian page has it in the info box.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 13:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read the entire discussion, but I would only include National conservatism as ideology in the infobox. FdI is not a neo-fascist party, in my opinion there was no consensus in the second RFC to include it among the ideologies in the infobox and a third RFC would be necessary to clarify the situation.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:44, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Analysis of sources with regards to the political position of the party

hiiiii oki so currently the infobox says "right-wing to far-right", so I'd like to go over the sources to see what they all describe it as. Opinions/editorials wont be counted. Nor will sources that WP:RSPS considers 'no consensus', generally unreliable, or deprecated. Also because 'right-wing' can be used as an umbrella term encompassing centre-right, right-wing, and far-right, only it being used to be specifically the political position between centre-right and far-right is counted. Also, not including any more than one article from the same outlet, as what matters is what the outlet describes it as.

Sources describing it as far-right (31 sources): [2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]

Sources describing it as merely right-wing (3 sources): [33][34][35]

Considering how many more sources describe it as far-right, and how much more reliable the sources which do are, I don't see how it's at all WP:DUE to include right-wing in the infobox. A Socialist Trans Girl 03:56, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To consider this party far-right is quite a joke. Not all sources are the same, of course, and relevant sources describe the party as relatively mainstream. This said, if we consider Google, there are 70,800 hits for "Brothers of Italy" and "far-right", 7,600 hits for "Brothers of Italy" and "radical right", 13,300 hits for "Brothers of Italy" and "hard right", 60,800 for "Brothers of Italy" and "right-wing", 18,700 hits for "Brothers of Italy" and "centre-right" and 54,800 hits for "Brothers of Italy" and "moderate". That is trawling fishing, but, surely, the party is not primarily considered far-right by English-language sources. Of course, in Italian language, things are even more evident: 90,800 hits for "Fratelli d'Italia" and "estrema destra" (and a handful more for "estrema destra") and 985,000 hits for "Fratelli d'Italia" and "destra" (including the former istances). Unfortunately, most of the sources you picked are quite left-wing or do not describe the party as a whole as far-right. Usually, the most respected newspapers, from Corriere della Sera in Italy and The Economist in the UK do not describe the party as far-right. Same for books and studies, especially Italian-language ones. --Checco (talk) 19:51, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco well since right-wing can be used as an umbrella term including centre-right and far-right, thats perhaps not the best way to do with it. The right-wing can also be used in the page to describe the coalition, or another party, or something else. Thats why I don't like the method of the google sources. Additionally, many of the sources (for both of them) can be unreliable, and google doesnt account for this. It's much better to analyse specific news sources.
How exactly is it a joke when (at LEAST) 31 sources (compared to 3) describe it as far-right? Do you just think it's absurd because of your own opinion/perception of the party? If so, that doesnt matter for wikipedia. For the Economist, if it describes it as right-wing instead of far-right, please link an Economist article describing it as such so I can add it.
You claim most of the sources i listed are left-wing. This is not true. I will will sort them by political ideology.
Far-left:
Left-wing: [36]
Centre-left: [37][38][39][40][41][42][43]
Centre/no political affiliation: [44][45] [46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]
Unsure: [61][62][63]
Centre-right: [64]
Right-wing: [65]
Far-right:
As you can see, most of them are NOT left-wing. A Socialist Trans Girl 00:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who has categorised the position/ideology of those specific sources? Is that a unilateral decision by yourself as an editor?-- Autospark (talk) 15:23, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is indeed nonsense. However, one can find thousands of sources and they should be evaluated. Most sources do not describe the party as far-right, especially over the last years. Surely, the party has roots in neo-fascism, but has travelled a long way from it and it is even more mainstream that its precedessor National Alliance. Take a look to what "The Economist", usually not kind with Italy's centre-right, had recently to say: "Ms Meloni’s party has its roots in neo-fascism, but she has been intelligent enough to moderate its policies to the extent that few could plausibly claim that her government is unacceptable in a liberal state. The lure of power is a strong incentive to evolve." (source) There is a clear difference between FdI and, say, AfD. FdI's ideology and path are much more similar to those of Spain's PP. Additionally, this week FdI was welcomed into the International Democracy Union, the international gathering of mainstream conservative parties. --Checco (talk) 14:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2024

it says post-fascism and is wrong. Ignaciovnz (talk) 02:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:Ignaciovnz that "post-fascism" is inappropriate, but having it in the infobox is a compromise. I am open to rediscussing it, of course. --Checco (talk) 19:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco: I also agree with User:Ignaciovnz, it's not a precise definition. JacktheBrown (talk) 02:08, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would love to remove it, but we need a broad consensus, as "post-fascism" was added after a long discussion. --Checco (talk) 08:39, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco: why don't we start a new discussion about it? JacktheBrown (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My position is abundantly clear. As I explained multiple times in the past, neither "post-fascism" nor "neo-fascism" should be mentioned in the infobox. The majority of sources do not describe the party as neo-fascist, even though several of them state that it has neo-fascist roots. The party is thus not neo-fascist, but post-post-post-post-fascist (also its direct predecessors were not neo-fascist, indeed). However, post-fascism is not an ideology and should not be included in the infobox as such. This said, the current settlement of "ideology" in the infobox was reached through long disucssions, multiple RfCs and a broad consensus. In my view, the only thing you can do is to start a new RfC. Probably, the current consensus will not change a lot, though. I have nothing more to add, but, in case you start a new RfC, I will definitely participate. --Checco (talk) 18:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Checco: I'll think about it, usually my RFCs and title change requests go very well (except the ones lost at the start), but I don't want to be overconfident. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:38, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brothers_of_Italy