Langbahn Team – Weltmeisterschaft

Talk:Draža Mihailović: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added
Tiblocco (talk | contribs)
Tiblocco (talk | contribs)
Line 263: Line 263:


So getting back on subject, Fkp, how would you cover the collaboration of Draža Mihailović in the lead? What is your proposal? But please keep the facts and sources in mind, and please lets focus on covering the collaboration itself, we can deal with the mitigating circumstances later. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">[[User:DIREKTOR|<font color="DimGray">DIREKTOR</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<font color="Gray">TALK</font>]])</sup></font> 05:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
So getting back on subject, Fkp, how would you cover the collaboration of Draža Mihailović in the lead? What is your proposal? But please keep the facts and sources in mind, and please lets focus on covering the collaboration itself, we can deal with the mitigating circumstances later. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">[[User:DIREKTOR|<font color="DimGray">DIREKTOR</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<font color="Gray">TALK</font>]])</sup></font> 05:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

present introduction or lead paragraph is well made: on alternative I agree rewritten by FkpCascais--[[User:Tiblocco|Tiblocco]] ([[User talk:Tiblocco|talk]]) 07:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
present introduction or lead paragraph is well made: on alternative I agree rewritten by FkpCascais--[[User:Tiblocco|Tiblocco]] ([[User talk:Tiblocco|talk]]) 07:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:04, 10 June 2011

Template:Mediation

"Soviet invasion"?

Serbian President Boris Tadić with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during the celebrations for the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Belgrade (primarily) by the Soviet military.
According to entire sections of this article Tadić is supposedly thanking Medvedev for the (quote) "Soviet invasion of Serbia".

The article has been rewritten in a highly biased tone, without any connection to actual history.

The political situation of Yugoslavia at the time (September 1944) was as follows. The following was the state of affairs agreed-upon, accepted and recognized by the King of Yugoslavia, his government-in-exile, and the entirety of the Allied Powers. If anyone wishes to challenge any of these facts, please let me know, mountains sources can be provided in the blink of an eye.

  • The country was named "Democratic Federal Yugoslavia", as agreed-upon by the King/his government and the AVNOJ, i.e. the Partisans, by the Tito-Šubašić Agreement
  • The Partisans (by that time numbering some half-a-million men) were recognized universally, both by the king and all of the Allies, as the official military of Yugoslavia.
  • The Prime Minister of Yugoslavia was Josip Broz Tito, also recognized universally as such.
  • Yugoslavia was at all times during the war (1941-1945) allied with the Soviet Union.

As the Red Army approached the borders of Yugoslavia, Yugoslav Prime Minister Josip Broz Tito met with Stalin to negotiate for Red Army assistance in capturing Belgrade, as the Partisan guerrillas were neither trained, nor equipped, nor experienced in urban warfare (as opposed to the 3rd Ukranian Front). The Soviet military was allowed to enter into northern Yugoslavia to assist in the liberation of Belgrade from Nazi Germany. After they did so, they entered into the city jointly with the Partisans, held a victory parade amidst cheering Yugoslav crowds, and left peacefully off to Hungary (this of course was strange and rather unique: no rape, no pillage, and the Red Army simply walks away).

I cannot express how apalled I am that this absurd gibberish, without any connection to reality whatsoever, stands in a Wikipedia article. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You were involved in previous edit wars: may you to wait 3 or 4 weeks for any discussion? I would like to rewrite all sections with related sources!--Tiblocco (talk) 15:24, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot understand your English. Molimte reci na našem. (Please say it in our language, I'll translate for everyone else.) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:50, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Direktor, instead of trying to drive the other user to speak in other language, I am offering myself to translate you what you don´t understand, so feel welcome and tell me what is that you missunderstood in Tiblocco´s words? FkpCascais (talk) 16:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please note here the hostile, combative tone of User:FkpCascais' post: completely without grounds, he accuses me of trying to "drive" the user into using his own language. As is typical of User:FkpCascais's posts, the user percieves an imaginary "evil scheme" on my part and responds to my posts with hostility. His manner constitutes the most extreme example of assuming bad faith.
@User:FkpCascais. Well you can't really "translate" rather bad English into English, or Serbian into Croatian, can you? Though I would appreciate it if you clarified the first sentence of Tiblocco's post for me. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will someone please give me an explanation for the "Soviet invasion of Yugoslavia"? In Serbian, Croatian, English, I don't care :D. The whole section is simply someone's made-up history, a disgrace for the whole of Wikipedia's WWII coverage, and should be removed outright. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

first of all, congratulations for your Mensa IQ and best wishes: you are a genius! Again, I assure: I am Italian-sono italiano, nato e cresciuto in Italia! You are most intelligent here but you didn't check article's history: I didn't edit section "Soviet invasion of Yugoslavia"! Now in my own language I confirm: considerando che la propaganda titoista accusò Draza di accordasrsi con invasori italiani e tedeschi, le fonti bibliografiche di questi accordi dovrebbero stare in Italia e Germania ma sinora neanche una sola fonte ho trovato! There is not a real single proof of Draza invented collaborating in Italian bibliographic sources!--Tiblocco (talk) 09:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well I can only say I probably owe my smarts to the fact that I'm Italian by ancestry, two generations ago my family spoke Italian. ;D Sry for suggesting you hail from this Balkans backwater, Tiblocco. :) Please forgive my bad Italian, I'm very rusty.
I did not suggest you wrote the "Soviet invasion of Yugoslavia" dribble, and I don't know who did. All I know is it has to go
@"There is not a real single proof of Draza invented collaborating in Italian bibliographic sources!"
Yes, there is. There are numerous, numerous sources of the highest quality, and direct evidence as well. (C'è. Ci sono numerose, numerose fonti di altissima qualità, e ci sono prove dirette.)
Communist propaganda was very harsh towards Draža Draža Mihailović. (Propaganda comunista ha attaccato Draža, questo è vero.) But what you must understand is that they were not completely wrong. (Ma quello che deve capire, è che essi non erano completamente errate.) Draža Mihailović did, in fact, commit several acts of collaboration. (Draza Mihailovic, infatti, ha commesso vari atti di collaborazione.)
  • L'11 gennaio 1942, l'accordo principale cetnici-italiano di collaborazione è stato firmato, tra il rappresentante della 2a Armata, il capitano Angelo De Matteis, e del rappresentante cetnici Mutimir Petković. Draza Mihailović ordinò al suo rappresentante personale di ratificare l'accordo. Draza Mihailović era a conoscenza della collaborazione cetnici-Italiano, e sostenuto questa collaborazione. Più tardi, ha personalmente controllato circa 13.000 soldati cetnici nella offensiva dell'Asse (Fall Weiss). Tutto questo è solo un esempio, è possibile leggere il resto qui sotto.
  • On 11 January 1942, the main Chetnik-Italian agreement of collaboration was signed, between the representative of the 2a Army, Captain Angelo De Matteis, and the Chetnik representative Mutimir Petković.Draža Mihailović ordered his personal representative to ratify the agreement. Draža Mihailović was aware of Chetnik-Italian collaboration, and supported this collaboration. Later, he personally controlled some 13,000 Chetnik troops in the Axis offensive (Fall Weiss). All this is just an example, you can some more on this issue just below.
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:11, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Language

This entire article needs to be re-written/re-edited by a specialist who is a native English speaker. #### — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.148.174 (talk) 17:41, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This entire article is currently under mediation, and soon it will be replaced by a more neutral version and with correct English grammar. FkpCascais (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraph on collaboration

WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points — including any prominent controversies.

Time to "take the bull by the horns", and discuss the main issue of this article: the composition of the paragraph on collaboration that should be included in the lead. The lead is quite short, and can easily take another paragraph. The following are the main instances of collaboration between Draža Mihailović and the enemies of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and King Peter II. Draža Mihailović, among other things:

  • offered to "place himself at the disposal" of the German occupation (28 September 1941)

The Chetnik command had already dispatched to Belgrade Colonel Branislav Pantić and Captain Nenad Mitrović, two of Mihailović's aides, where they contacted German intelligence officer Captain Josef Matl on October 28. They informed the Abwehr that they have been empowered by Colonel Mihailović to establish contact with Prime Minister Milan Nedić and the appropriate Wehrmacht command posts to inform them that the Colonel was willing to "place himself and his men at their disposal for fighting communism". The two representatives further gave the Germans their commander's guarantee for the "definitive clearing of communist bands in Serbian territory" and requested aid from the occupation forces in the form of "about 5,000 rifles, 350 machine guns, and 20 heavy machine guns"

— Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume II: Occupation and Collaboration
  • dispatched personal representatives to authorize the main collaboration agreements between the Chetniks and Fascist Italy (Major Boško Todorović, 11 January 1942),

Mihailović was aware of and condoned the collaborationist agreements [with the Italians] into which Jevđević and Trifunović-Birčanin entered.

— Ramet, The Three Yugoslavias p.148

An agreement was concluded on 11 January 1942 between the representative of the Italian 2nd Army, Captain Angelo De Matteis and the Chetnik representative for southeastern Bosnia, Mutimir Petković, and was later signed by Draža Mihailović's chief delegate in Bosnia, Major Boško Todorović.

— Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: The Chetniks
  • personally commanded some 12,000 to 15,000 Chetnik troops in a joint military operation with German, Italian, and Croatian quisling forces (January – April 1943),

In the final phase, the Battle of the Neretva River, the total number of Chetnik auxiliaries and other Chetnik formations closely working together with the Italians was between 12,000 and 15,000 men.

— Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: The Chetniks p.236

Apparently to make sure that the crucial operation on the Neretva would be carried out successfully, and also to be present at the scene of the kill, Mihailović himself moved from Montenegro to Kalinovik where he joined Ostojić, who had up to this point been in command of operations in Herzegovina. On March 9 Mihailović wrote to Colonel Stanišić: "I manage the whole operation through Branko [i.e. Ostojić, Mihailović's Chief of Operations]. No action is ordered without my approval. Branko is keeeping me informed of even the smallest details. All his proposals are reviewed, studied, approved or corrected..." Note 122: But at his trial Mihailović stated that "there the operations were led by Ostojić, because I had no time to occupy myself with these matters, since I had really come to visit my troops and get acquainted with the real state of affairs."

— Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: The Chetniks p.241
  • ordered his subordinates to "cooperate with the German forces" (20 November 1944), adding that he himself "cannot go along because of public opinion",

On November 20 1944 the Germans intercepted a radio message from Mihailović to Vojvoda ["duke"] Đujić, his commander in northern Dalmatia, instructing him to cooperate with the German forces. He himself, he says, "cannot go along because of public opinion". Microcopy No. T-311, Roll 196, Frame 225. This refusal to have any personal dealings with the enemy is a policy that Mihailović departed from only on five occasions: the Divci conference in mid-November 1941, two conferences with Envoy Neuerbach's representative [Hermann Neubacher, chief envoy of Nazi Germany in the Balkans], Rudolf Stärker, in the autumn of 1944, and again with Stärker on Vučjak Mountain in 1945.

— Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: The Chetniks p.329
  • and conferred personally with the german authorities "on five different occasions: the Divci conference in mid-November 1941, two conferences with Envoy Neuerbach's representative [Hermann Neubacher, chief envoy of Nazi Germany in the Balkans], Rudolf Stärker, in the autumn of 1944, and again with Stärker on Vučjak Mountain in 1945." (Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: The Chetniks p.329)

These are the main acts of collaboration commited by Draža Mihailović (needless to say, each one alone constitutes treason during wartime in accordance with the laws of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and can be punished with execution). Hence the lead paragraph, in order to include the more prominent points of this subject should sound something like:



  1. ^ Ramet, Sabrina (2006). The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005. New York: Indiana University Press. pp. 145–155. ISBN 0253346568. Retrieved June 2 2011. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
    p. 145: "Both the Chetniks' political program and the extent of their collaboration have been amply, even voluminously, documented; it is more than a bit disappointing, thus, that people can still be found who believe that the Chetniks were doing anything besides attempting to realize a vision of an ethnically homogenous Greater Serbian state, which they intended to advance, in the short run, by a policy of collaboration with the Axis forces. The Chetniks collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces until the Italian capitulation in September 1943, and beginning in 1944, portions of the Chetnik movement of Draža Mihailović collaborated openly with the Germans and Ustaša forces in Serbia and Croatia."
  2. ^ Tomasevich, Jozo (1975). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: The Chetniks. San Francisco: Stanford University Press. p. 246. ISBN 0804708576.
    On p.246, a general statememt on Chetnik collaboration describes it as "systematic and enduring":
    "..the systematic and enduring Chetnik collaboration described in this study".
  3. ^ Tomasevich, Jozo (1975). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: Chetniks. San Francisco: Stanford University Press. pp. 213-235 (Chapter 7). ISBN 0804736154.
    "The Chetnik command had already dispatched to Belgrade Colonel Branislav Pantić and Captain Nenad Mitrović, two of Mihailović's aides, where they contacted German intelligence officer Captain Josef Matl on October 28. They informed the Abwehr that they have been empowered by Colonel Mihailović to establish contact with Prime Minister Milan Nedić and the appropriate Wehrmacht command posts to inform them that the Colonel was willing to 'place himself and his men at their disposal for fighting communism'. The two representatives further gave the Germans their commander's guarantee for the 'definitive clearing of communist bands in Serbian territory' and requested aid from the occupation forces in the form of 'about 5,000 rifles, 350 machine guns, and 20 heavy machine guns'."
  4. ^ a b Tomasevich, Jozo (1975). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: Chetniks. San Francisco: Stanford University Press. pp. 236–241. ISBN 0804736154.
    "In the final phase, the Battle of the Neretva River, the total number of Chetnik auxiliaries and other Chetnik formations closely working together with the Italians was between 12,000 and 15,000 men. (p.236)... Apparently to make sure that the crucial operation on the Neretva would be carried out successfully, and also to be present at the scene of the kill, Mihailović himself moved from Montenegro to Kalinovik where he joined Ostojić, who had up to this point been in command of operations in Herzegovina. On March 9 Mihailović wrote to Colonel Stanišić: 'I manage the whole operation through Branko [i.e. Ostojić, Mihailović's Chief of Operations]. No action is ordered without my approval. Branko is keeeping me informed of even the smallest details. All his proposals are reviewed, studied, approved or corrected...' Note 122: But at his trial Mihailović stated that 'there the operations were led by Ostojić, because I had no time to occupy myself with these matters, since I had really come to visit my troops and get acquainted with the real state of affairs.' (p.241)"
  5. ^ Ramet, Sabrina (2006). The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005. New York: Indiana University Press. p. 148. ISBN 0253346568. Retrieved June 2 2011. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
    p. 148: "Mihailović was aware of and condoned the collaborationist agreements into which Jevđvić and Trifunović-Birčanin entered..."
  6. ^ Tomasevich, Jozo (1957). War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, Volume I: Chetniks. San Francisco: Stanford University Press. p. 329. ISBN 0804736154.
    p.329: "On November 20 1944 the Germans intercepted a radio message from Mihailović to Vojvoda ["duke"] Đujić, his commander in northern Dalmatia, instructing him to cooperate with the German forces. He himself, he says, "cannot go along because of public opinion" (Microcopy No. T-311, Roll 196, Frame 225). This refusal to have any personal dealings with the enemy is a policy that Mihailović departed from only on five occasions: the Divci conference in mid-November 1941, two conferences with Envoy Neuerbacher's representative [Hermann Neubacher, chief envoy of Nazi Germany in the Balkans], Rudolf Stärker, in the autumn of 1944, and again with Stärker on Vučjak Mountain in 1945."

Now I anticipate the inevitable attack on the first-rate scholarly publications quoted above. Be aware, Fkp, that I am prepared to once again post Tomasevich and Ramet's excellent peer reviews here at any time. :) We can, of course, discuss HOW this information is to be entred into the lead, but not its veracity. Please, oh please, do not once more start posting your personal opinions on scholars and historians. Wikipedians are not obliged to take your opinion as relevant criticism of a scholarly source. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

your opinion on lead paragraph on collaboration is slanted very much: this is contoversial question!--Tiblocco (talk) 09:44, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My position on this issue is based on reputable sources. I researched the matter in ver great detail. (La mia posizione su questo tema si basa su pubblicazioni di alta reputazione. Ho studiato la questione in dettaglio molto grande.) Everything I say above is a direct quote from a scholarly publication. As such, it cannot really be "slanted". (Tutto quello che dico è una citazione diretta da una pubblicazione scientifica. Come tale, essa non può davvero essere "slanted".)
@"There is not a real single proof of Draza invented collaborating in Italian bibliographic sources!"
Yes, there is. There are numerous, numerous sources of the highest quality, and direct evidence as well. You can see that just above. (C'è. Ci sono numerose, numerose fonti di altissima qualità, e ci sono prove dirette.) Not from Yugoslavia, or by communist authors, but from neutral historians and universities such as Stanford and Cambridge. (Non da Jugoslavia, o da autori comunista, ma da storici neutrali e da università come Stanford e Cambridge.) All with the very best peer reviews. (Tutti con le migliori revisioni paritari) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I read your sources but there is other problem: le fonti sono contraddittorie-sources are of opposite views by some historians who denied conclusions of other historians! Meglio impostare la sezione -Controversy- e riportare le fonti senza commenti ulteriori.--Tiblocco (talk) 11:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
La questione non è davvero "controversa" nei circoli accademici.
It is not really possible to dispute these facts. They are based on primary sources, such as statements by Draža Mihailović, or German intelligence reports. They are not really "conclusions", but the most simple facts. The sources that describe them are of very high quality. If you do have scholarly sources that directly contradict these facts, however, please post them. But, please, make sure these sources really do directly contradict these facts, or explain why these sources are unreliable.
Non è davvero possibile contestare questi fatti. Essi si basano su fonti primarie, come dichiarazioni di Draza Mihailovic, o di rapporti dei servizi segreti tedeschi. In realtà non sono "conclusioni", ma i fatti più semplici. Le fonti che li descrivono sono di reputazione molto alta.
Se si dispone di fonti scientifiche che contraddicono direttamente questi fatti, si prega di scrivere qui. Ma, per favore, assicurarsi che queste fonti davvero contraddicono direttamente questi fatti.
An author might proclaim, "Draža did not collaborate!", but unless there is some way to discredit these events and facts, or the secondary sources where they are posted, I can't imagine why we should pretend they are untrue. Remember: these sources have excellent reviews.
Un autore può proclamare: "Draza non collaborare!", ma se non c'è un modo per screditare questi eventi e fatti, o le fonti secondarie, dove vengono citati loro, non riesco a immaginare perché dovremmo fingere che non sono vere.
Ricorda: le fonti citate hanno ottime recensioni, e sono probabilmente le fonti migliori accademico su questo tema.
Again, sorry for my bad Italian :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now I will replace "communist dicatorship" with "Yugoslav authorities". "Communist dictatorship" is a highly biased, unencyclopedic term, laden with political undertones. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

il tuo italiano è comprensibile: le fonti di Tomasevich e Ramet sono da considerare e io non le critico; "communist dicatorship" è l'espressione corretta e il tuo accanimento non lo capisco!--Tiblocco (talk) 14:04, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I did not use Italian for some 6 years - I'm very rusty.
  • Sono sicuro che non suggerendo ignoriamo Tomasevich e Ramet? Non possiamo ignorare tali fonti di altissima qualità.
  • Non sono accanimento :), ma su Wikipedia non possiamo usare una formulazione così forte e non-enciclopedico. Come ti sentiresti se ho semplicemente scritto "Draza Mihailovic era un collaboratore"? Even Nazi Germany is not described as a "fascist dictatorship".
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 17:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Replacing article with draft from Mediation

Just a head's up that in a day or so, I figure to replace the article here with the draft we worked up in the mediation in a day or so. Objections can be noted here or there, but I didn't want to surprise anyone since this will be a substantial change. --Nuujinn (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the replacement, provided the lead paragraph on collaboration is not removed in the process. Its removal would be an opposed edit on my part, i.e. I would revert that part of the edit. I may additonally expand the Collaboration section in the future, but continuous change is, after all, both inevitable and desireable on Wiki.. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am totaly oposing this DIREKTOR´s attitude again blackmailing about his wishes. I am sorry, but if you see objections direktor, and if you wish to "expand" what we already know and basically why the mediation started, you should do it within the mediation where your edits can be overviewed and where in case of objections, a mediated discussion can happend. FkpCascais (talk) 06:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am not "blackmailing" anybody. As far as I am concerned, Nuujin can enter every single word of the draft. I am just making it clear I opposse the removal in the process of this one measely paragraph. Should he remove the paragraph, I'll not be "offended", I'll not revert his entire edit, I'll just revert the removal of the paragraph. How is this blackmail?
(At this point, Fkp, you can probably stop nagging me about the mediation, I will no longer respond to that part of your post.) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 07:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, you are free to do whatever you feel like, respond or not, however, some trouths must be said: the entire mediation had begin because of the expansions on Chetnik collaboration subject you have done in several articles. If you wish to edit that same subject, either you return to the mediation where the issue can be discussed, or otherwise you should be prevented to make changes to that subject in the post mediation period. If the idea that you ignore the mediation, which started because of you, and afterwords you return to the same patern, goes by, I will definitelly raise the issue of useless of the mediation processes on WP. You are already announcing that you will return to your very same rethoric in future, but you refuse to discuss it under mediation where you had begin, but you disliked it and you abandoned it? Sorry my friend, but that sound very, very wrong and disruptive already. FkpCascais (talk) 07:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with FkpCascais and this edit is full confrontational comment, insult to users who know Yugoslav history, blatant violation of neutrality policy, insult to article's mediation. I request intervention of admins.--Tiblocco (talk) 13:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see why you are so upset? You commented above that "There is not a real single proof of Draza invented collaborating in Italian bibliographic sources!". In fact, there are such sources. Your position, however, does not seem to depend on sources in any way. That is to say, you have been shown new sources and information, but did not change your stance in the slightest.
The paragraph is completely accurate and fully in accordance with the sources, and specifically avoids any labeling . If you have any new scholarly references contradicting anything stated in the paragraph, please post them as soon as you can. If not, I hope you do not expect Wikipedia to accept hostile inflammatory rhetoric as a "source" instead. On the rest, please feel free to report me whenever you feel you have been insulted in any way (this is where you can request intervention by admins). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I repeat: no italian source wich confirms collaborazione or alleanza but only compromesso of Draza's warriors with Italian soldiers! You are only POV pusher despite a lot of warnings by me, FkpCascais and user:Isidoradaven! I studied these scholars:

  • De Rosa
  • Pagnoncelli-he was a fascist officer
  • Scotti-he is a communist who emigrated to Yugoslavia
  • Bettiza
  • Montanelli
  • De Felice-most studied historian about fascist history and fascist wars
  • enciclopedia Treccani
  • enciclopedia Garzanti
  • enciclopedia De Agostini
  • enciclopedia Mondadori

if you have Italian source wich explains about alleanza of Draza's warriors with Italian soldiers, show it by scanner!--Tiblocco (talk) 14:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh this is just nonsense.. We are to accept only Italian sources?? Who cares if they're from Italy or not? You are completely unacquainted with both WWII Yugoslav history and Wiki policy and are showing it at every turn.
There is absolutely no question at all that Draža Mihailović's Chetniks engaged in collaboration with the Italian occupation forces. That is a very basic fact about this war, is beyond dispute, and is agreed-upon even by the other side. The Chetniks in the Italian zone were even fully incorporated into the Italian chain of command as the Milizia Volontaria Anti Comunista, I suggest you read some more about that. If you studied these "sources" I suggest you study them again, or if they do not cover these events, I suggest you find better sources (most of them are esuli dribble anyway). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Tiblocco has made an excellent point. I can´t see how a collaboration between Italians and Chetniks is never described as such in Italian sources? I mean, we are not talking about some minor undeveloped academically country, but a well known developed democracy with a long history of academical research. If Italian sources describe it as compromise, very similarly as some other scholars in Western world, we should certainly take this into account. Ramet is a weak source, anyway, and allways portraying negatively any Serb movement, no wander that is so much used by some users. FkpCascais (talk) 17:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
omg, grasping at straws.. Firstly, it does not matter at all whether Italian sources mention it or not (foreign language sources are actually discouraged, ready policy). Secondly, I do not see why we are supposed to take Tiblocco's word for any of this. Thirdly: word games we wil not play. Yes the Chetniks "compromised", a "compromise" with an enemy is called "collaboration". Ridiculous on several levels..
We are talking about 34,000 Chetniks within the Italian command structure conducting numerous joint operations with them. This is not really a subject open to debate, it is possible to literally bury you two in sources, from Pavlowitch, through Ramet, Tomasevich, Dixon, Edwards.. Even rubbish non-scholarly pro-Chetnik sources admit there was collaboration here. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 18:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone has an italian or other source that states that there was no collaboration, we'd have something to talk about. We are not obligated to find sources in any particular language. And the mere fact that Italian language sources do not address the issue directly doesn't really matter as we are not allowed to drawn conclusions--we may be personally confused as to why the issue does not come up in Italian language sources, but that's a personal issue and not something we can use to make content decisions. To draw any conclusions based on the apparent absence of sources would be a violation of OR. --Nuujinn (talk) 20:01, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. WP:OR applies. Also WP:NONENG: "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, if English sources of equal quality and relevance are available." And they most certainly are. So we pretty much are "obliged" to use the English-language sources.

Also I do not see why we are supposed to take the word of User:Tiblocco on this, I would not take his word on such an extravagant claim even were he not more than a bit slanted in this discussion. Frankly I don't believe a word of it. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Italian publications on WWII. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Nuujinn, you have no reason whatsoever to limit the search of sources into "saying one thing, or another". Direktor has choosed to name the relation between Chetniks and Italians in the strongest way, using the word "collaboration" and I know you favour such description as well. However, few authors describe it that way, and some others choose another type of words, softer ones. Tiblocco says that the relation between them is not described as such strong words as "collaboration", but rather as "compromise", something that does go along some other sources claiming similar level of relationship rather than the accusational "collaboration". You can disagree with, you can ask for sources, but you can´t disregard the facts that other sources describe it in different words. Words are important, and we shall see how preciselly all authors describe it. FkpCascais (talk) 22:39, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
FkpCacais, I formally ask that you show a diff where I tried to limit the search of sources or retract your accusation. I suggest that you do not attempt to characterize my views, feelings or opinions and limit yourself to discussions of content. My point was only that it is meaningless to ask why Italian language sources do not comment on Chetnik collaboration, as that lack does not undermine those sources which do. It's an OR issue, that all. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don´t need to enter into any exercise of interpretation when you say: "If anyone has an italian or other source that states that there was no collaboration, we'd have something to talk about". It´s crystal clear. If Tiblocco, or anyone else, finds sources describing the relation between Chetniks and Italians, we have no reason whatsoever to disregard them (your: to not discuss them) just because they do, or not, say this ot that. FkpCascais (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I ask again that you stop misrepresenting me. The fact that some sources do not use the term does not undermine sources that do, and, unless a source contradicts others, there's not even a dispute to make note of. Until you or someone else can bring a source that refutes other sources, there's nothing to talk about in terms of weighing the sources at hand, thus nothing to talk about. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You don´t need to talk about it if you don´t want to. That is your personal issue, not "we"´s. I supose there isn´t much of a dispute here, however the level, strenght, duration, purpuse and some other factors may be important and quite relevant. Direktor has choosed the most acusational ones, favouring the hardest rethoric, however, "we" :), are perfectly entitled to find all the sources "we" feel like and to introduce them into the discussion to see the most NPOV way of describing the facts. I don´t see anything that a good wikipedian could possibly disagree about what am I saying. FkpCascais (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You will do as you like, but I ask a third time that you retract your mischaracterization of my point. You are not addressing the point I raised, and you have twisted my words. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NONENG: "English sources are preferred over non-English ones". So yes, we do have good reason to disregard Italian sources as opposed to English ones.

Now this is a very important point, Fkp. The paragraph is a list of controversial acts by Draža Mihailović. Unless you can find some sources, some way to directly discredit or prove the falsehood of these acts - you cannot remove them from the article. That is to say, even if you were to find some source that harbours a number of "good" statements about Draža, it would be ok to include that, but it does not mean you can now somehow remove other facts from the article. That said, we must remember that you never ever posted a single solitary source in this discussion. The cheek of a person that claims this or that about sources, all based on how they relate to his personal preconceptions, having enever ever read a single one, is frankly unbelievable ("Draža was a good guy, I know he was, this source is the most accusational one!!" - based on WHAT? Your knowledge of sources? xD)
In short, the only way you can possibly remove the info in the paragraph is to somehow show that it is false (as opposed to 100% sourced and accurate). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 05:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will translate Italian sources word after word!--Tiblocco (talk) 09:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That will be helpful, Tiblocco. If you would, please also provide some information about the academic credentials for the authors of any sources you translate, as we will need such information in order to weigh the sources. My suggestion would be to not bother with the encyclopedias as those are tertiary sources and don't carry sufficient weight to support detailed statements. Also, please note that even if 'no italian source wich confirms collaborazione or alleanza but only compromesso of Draza's warriors with Italian soldiers', that does not undermine sources which do unless they say something to the effect of "there was no collaboration between X and Y, only a series of compromises" (I hope I'm seeing the italian correctly through my french), in which case we can document the dispute if the sources have sufficient gravitas. There are plenty of reliable source which have documented that many groups of Chetniks openly collaborated with Italian forces in Montenegro and Bosnia, even if it is unclear to what degree M. sanctioned same, or the extent to which he was in control of these groups. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Correction, you've not been keeping-up with the sources, Nuujin :). It is, in fact, clear that M. sanctioned the collaboration.
"Mihailović was aware of and condoned the collaborationist agreements into which Jevđvić and Trifunović-Birčanin entered."
Ramet p.149
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm speaking theoretically to address what I see as potential OR, and the "even if" introduces a clause in subjunctive.... --Nuujinn (talk) 22:05, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't any real dispute in the sources that there was extensive collaboration with the Italians as described by Nujinn - and some collaboration with Germans. That is not the point. It is unrealistc to expect the article not to grapple with this issue. The point should be - for discussion after the new article has been posted, how to present that in the lead. The problem with this type of edit may be that it prsents the most unrelievedly extreme collection of bits of sources without any of the nuances and complexities of the situation, giving the impression that the Chetniks were just pro-nazi support troops when in fact they hoped for Allied victory and their ultimate aim was both the removal of Nazi occupation and not ending up a communist dominated country either. It is facile to try and present this in simple goodies versus baddies terms. I look forward to the new article being posted here and a civilised discussion on how to present the issue of collaboration.Fainites barleyscribs 20:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, the "nuances and complexities". Fainites, did Draža fight the Axis? Yes, lets describe that in the lead. Did Draža collaborate with the Axis? Yes, lets describe that in the lead as well. I've done the latter, and I have no objections to the addition of the former. These are all the "nuances" involved. The Chetniks hoped for an Allied victory, yes, but only if they managed to destroy the Partisans first. To quote Ramet: "Both the Chetniks' political program and the extent of their collaboration have been amply, even voluminously, documented; it is more than a bit disappointing, thus, that people can still be found who believe that the Chetniks were doing anything besides attempting to realize a vision of an ethnically homogenous Greater Serbian state, which they intended to advance, in the short run, by a policy of collaboration with the Axis forces."
Ideology, hopes, and propaganda aside, from a military point of view the main function of the Chetnik movement in WWII Yugoslavia is OVERWHELMINGLY - serving as "pro-nazi support troops", and that policy makes excellent military sense. Thats not me talking, of course, that's the sources. I invite you for the second time to read Chapter 7 of The Chetniks to fully understand the military function of the Chetniks in this conflict.
The reason in fact why the bits of information are presented instead of a simple sentence of the form "Draža Mihailović engaged in and condoned acts of collaboration with the Axis powers" is that such summations have been rejected as "labeling", in spite of being undeniably true. I have in fact been forced to display only the bear facts and avoid any such direct statements that might be more appropriate for the lead.
--DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You're not forced to do anything. You don't have to react aggressively to every post - particularly unsourced posts - that you don't agree with. It doesn't make sense for us to say "Ideology, hopes and propaganda aside, from a military point of view....". Who are we to decide the "military point of view" and why should that predominate? Also - how can you be "pro-nazi" from a "military point of view". "Draža Mihailović engaged in and condoned acts of collaboration with the Axis powers" is preferable to your version but in any event, how to present this in the lead is a matter for discussion and consensus - not intemperate demands.Fainites barleyscribs 21:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did not really react aggressively..

"Keep in mind that raw text may be ambiguous and often seems ruder than the same words coming from a person standing in front of you."

..though you do seem to have me pegged as a "bully" and there's really nothing I can do about that.
Now, first of all, I am obviously not suggesting we ignore the "ideology, hopes, and propaganda" of the Chetniks. Though what is apparently being suggested is that we ignore the military point of view. And, in all fairness and objectivity, what the Chetnik troops actually did in WWII seems to me more significant than what their ideology was like (though both should be included) Also, as I pointed out, I am certainly not the one "deiciding" the military perspective, in fact I wore out my keyboard copying down on Wikipedia entire pages and chapters from the relevant sources. You can be "pro-Nazi from a military point of view" quite easily: simply fight for and with the Nazis, or order your men to fight with the Nazis.
I have absolutely nothing against deciding the wording by consensus. There is one catch, however. There are folks here who are essentially "in denial" with regard to the collaboration of the Chetniks, they being their WWII heroes. Draža Mihailović himself is, without a doubt, the no.1 Serbian nationalist icon and "martyr" of the modern age. Suggesting he was actually guilty of collaboration strips him of his "martyr" status.
Thus one aspect of consensus-building here is absolutey paramount: the consensus must be based on sources primarily, not the positions of Wikipedia users. Sources must not be ignored for the sake of a slanted consensus. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 03:53, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The "Balkan soccer fan" (the friendly way I am refered by direktor at AGK talk page) just came to remind that militarily Chetniks fought Germans, Italians, Pavelic Croatians, Muslim SS Units, etc. beside having participated in joint actions along Allies (including Partisans). So, while I don´t deny collaboration, seems allways that you direktor somehow forget this resistance part. I am never tired up of reminding everyone the episode when we were discussing one source about a Chetnik-German officials meating, that is presented as evidence of collaboration by direktor (?), which states that Germans refused the offer of agreement because the Mihailovic man were dismembering and decapitating German soldiers. When I confronted the situation by saying that this could not be used as evidence of collaboration and that we have here actually a confirmation of resistance activity and anymosity between the two, direktor and Nuujinn said that "dismembering and decapitating German soldiers was not an act of resistance". By this, I don´t pretend to show it as exemple of content, but of participants attitude. Also, you direktor use lately the word Chetnik propaganda, which I totaly fail to understand why. You already acused me of using sources related to Chetnik propaganda, however in my (incomplete) sources list (User:FkpCascais/Sandbox23) I fail to see anything close to be even closely described as such. Would you please be kind direktor and point out for which exact sources of mine you expressed your concern? FkpCascais (talk) 07:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now, the way this discussion is prolongued and sidetracked is that FkpCascais starts talking about the (few!) instances of resistance and/or cooperation with the Partisans. That is NOT the subject of this discussion. The subject of this discussion is the collaboration of Draža Mihailović and how to describe it in the lead, and its time to discuss actual article changes. So, since it seems you now suddenly "do not deny collaboration", please tell me what is your proposal? How would you describe the collaboration in the lead? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 09:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On the mediation after seing all the sources you presented, and after much of your exageration and missinterpretation was exposed, it was concluded that it was: Ocasional and oportunistic. I actually agree and those were not my words. How would you describe their resistance? FkpCascais (talk) 09:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Occasional and opportunistic"? "Opportunistic" it certainly was, when the policy is viewed as a whole. Very well, please post the sources that describe Chetnik collaboration as a whole as "occasional" (or at least along those lines). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are you going to respond, FkpCascais? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:28, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is basically what I am talking about. How can anyone discuss like this? Sources and facts are the least of FkpCascais's concerns. When asked to present his case he simply does not respond - every single time. This must be the 50th yet. After this post he will inevitably switch the subject.

The fact is that there are NO sources that describe Chetnik collaboration as "occasional". FkpCascais is lobbying for the incusion of his own personal "assessment". The problem is that would be a ridiculous statement for a movement that collaborated openly and completely everywhere except southern Serbia (and there was almost entirely inactive by intentional policy), and at all times except the latter half of 1941. Chetnik collaboration is described in the sources e.g. as "systematic and extensive" (Ramet p. 145) and "systematic and enduring" (Tomasevich p.246) - and these are just the examples I have on hand since those are my "flagship sources".

So much for "occasional", please do not suggest it again without references. Now, lets keep the discussion focused. I have presented (some of) the sources describing Chetnik collaboration. With that in mind I ask you again: please tell me how would you cover Chetnik collaboration in the lead of this article? Should we ignore these sources and why? (Please try to support your proposal with references.) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:48, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Take it easy direktor, people have a life you know (I´m not sure how can you expect me to be here 24h/day), listen, as I said, those were not my words, but a solution found after analising everything. The discussion is there somewhere between the tone of words said during the process. You can´t put the issue that way, since some sources don´t even talk using the word "collaboration". What you are doing here is quite absurd, and the mediation has the exact purpouse to find the needed balance between different views on the issue. The other solution, favoured by most but unstrangely rejected by you, was to say exactly who says what: "Historian Tomasevic claims...", but you seem to think that it is unecessary since in your view Ramet and Tomasevich are the holders of the trouth (?). By your sugestion, we will be having an unusual article which would sound to something like this:
  • Draža Mihailović (born - died) was a Chetnik movement leader, ... . The Chetnik organization, officially named the "Chetnik Deatchments of the Yugoslav Army" in order to disassociate themself from the Chetniks who collaborated with Axis forces [Roberts p. 21], and later "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland" (JVUO, ЈВУО), was founded as a royalist/nationalist Serbian/Yugoslav resistance movement and was the first Yugoslav military opposition against invaders but by late 1941 they had fallen out with the communist resistance forces, the Partisans. From early 1942 Chetnik factions began collaborating with Italian forces and, after the collapse of Italy as an Axis power, with German occupation forces.[4] In 1943 along with attacks on German forces [Galbraith, p. 272] an intensified actions in rescuing British and American airman [Galbraith, p. 271] took place. They were the official Allied forces until December 1943 when the Allies switched their support in favour of the Partisans, however afterwords, they continued their resistance efforts by being envolved in half-dozen major attacks on Axis forces [Kurapovna p. 99] while hoping an Allied victory is archived. After the war Mihailovic was highly condecorated for his resistance efforts by United States and France, after a US Congress sponsored trial released him of all collaboration acusations he was charged in his home country, now ruled by Partisans leader Tito.
Atention: This is version I wrote in rush just to ilustrate a point to direktor, and it is not the exact version I defend as lead solution for the article. I just want to demostrate to direktor, and everyone interested, that his way of dealing with this issue is wrong and would lead us to have 2 versions of same article, meaning that instead of having a coherent article, readers will be bombed by oposing claims, and basically left confused. Instead of pushing extremes, I beleave we have enough capacity to interpret and understand all sources and make a peacefull resume of the events, the problem is when some users simply demand using an extreme POV wording in the articles... FkpCascais (talk) 18:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all: you did not describe the acts of collaboration by Draža Mihailović. Why did you avoid that? How would you describe the collaboration of Draža Mihailović?
  • Second of all, you are placing UNBELIEVABLE WP:UNDUE WEIGHT on the few militarily insignificant attacks the Chetniks commited against the Axis. Here you have a military faction policing entire regions for, and in agreement with, the Germans, being supplied by the Germans, conducting real military operations numbering thousands of men under German overall command, for years on end no less - and yet here we have a proposed lead that gathers together every single anti-Axis operation and contrasts it with a half a forced, squeeted-out sentence stating ...they also collaborated :). Not that I'm terribly surprised, but still, I have to point out that this unbelievable bias.
  • And third, you still have no sources. As I pointed out before, there are numerous high-quality authors on this subject, historians, professionals who have devoted their entire lives to the study of WWII Yugoslavia. Pavlowitch, Ramet, Tomasevic, Dickson, etc..
    Galbraith's memoirs are not a scholarly source. Kurapovna, a Balkans wartime correspondent, is not a scholarly source. You know this, I pointed it out.
Finally, There was no "trial" in the US, the US cannot acquit a Yugoslav citizen, you've mixed up the facts again (deliberately?). A secret, political finding by the US congress, 60 years ago with not a fifth of the information available now is no "evidence" of innocence - and will not be presented as such.n On the other hand, ordering your regional commander to "cooperate with the Germans" is, in fact, evidence of guilt.. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Look.. lets get back on subject. For the record you will not succeed in placing WP:UNDUE WEIGHT on a few meaningless raids, quoting non-scholarly dribble, while demanding that serious historians (lauded by the American Historical Association as the "best sources available") be mentioned by name at the same time. That's not gonna fly, and that's for the record. But I did not ask you to post your enite stlanted lead here. Lets talk about the collaboration FIRST.

  • So even though you cannot get yourself to write this without burying it in low-quality "excuses", you agree on "From early 1942 Chetnik factions began collaborating with Italian forces and, after the collapse of Italy as an Axis power, with German occupation forces." With the addition of the Ustaše (sourced!) and the wording used by the "best sources available" (according to the AHA [1]), we might even have consensus. Fine. Even though I feel you might go back on this, its still more progress than the mediation achieved in 15 months.
  • Now for Draža himself, this is the Draža Mihailović article after all. You know he collaborated, I quoted you his own words confessing he did so - several times over. So, with the sources in mind, how would you describe Draža's collaboration.

--DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you two people not think there's something significant in the way nobody else joins in these TLDR tennis matches? Lets wait for the new article to be posted and then discuss any changes- allowing other people to discuss too. Now the mediation pages have been blanked off - nobody else except participants can see them. Fainites barleyscribs 20:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No I think this is useful, Fkp and I can finally get an idea about where the other stands regarding actual text changes. In fact, Fainites, this exchange might help focus the discussion on the text instead of a meaningless forum-like debate.
But TLDR is a major problem here.. this is a highly complex guerriila military situation we're trying to gauge objectively, how can anyone form an unibiased position on this without at least reading-up partially on the subject matter? Frankly half of my arrogance here stems from the fact that I'm the only one to have actually read a single book on this war.. if you really want to help us put together a text that is neutral and in accordance with sources, I honestly suggest picking-up a book or at least part of it (my recommendation you've heard). Gauging the "more neutral" side from the rudeness of the exchange is imho a very unreliable method :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You couldn't be more wrong. Furthermore - your discussion with Fkp is following the normal pattern and going nowhere other than becoming increasingly offensive. Might I suggest you seriously consider striking the above piece of text as it seems to serve little purpose other than endeavouring to offend everybody? Fainites barleyscribs 21:33, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) ::Ahem. Direktor, please careful with assumptions about what people have read.
Fkp, I know you were in a rush, but I do not think "The Chetnik organization, officially named the "Chetnik Deatchments of the Yugoslav Army" in order to disassociate themself from the Chetniks who collaborated with Axis forces [Roberts p. 21]," can be sourced to Roberts on p. 21. What I see similar there is "In order to dissociate himself with the Cetniks who collaborated with the German, M. at first called his movement the "Ravna Gora Movement". I don't have notes or page 5 available at the moment. The context for that particular line is, however, M.'s relationship with Pecanac and Nedic. Nedic openly collaborated with the Germans early on, and I believe that Robert's point is that M. did not want his people confused with Nedic's, but we also know that it was not so very long after that that M. dispersed his people into the ranks of Nedic's troops, joined the Montenegran Chetniks, and we know what happened then. Also, you say "...by late 1941 they had fallen out with the communist resistance forces, the Partisans." That's not quite accurate, as M. ordered the attack on the Partisans around the same time the Germans refused to provide him with arms and ammunition because they did not trust him. It's complex issue, and I don't think the way you phrase it there captures that or is appropriate to the lead.
Fainites is right, best to let this sit a while and come back to it. I cannot speak for Fainites, but I think the issue of TLDR is a real problem here. Long paragraphs are often less convincing than short ones, and the prose in this discussions is often highly repetitive, which discourages participation by others. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:41, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the mediation was complicated by overly long and, at times, off-topic posts. Perhaps we should have some norms for discussion when the new draft of the article gets posted. Also, I think it should be a moderated discussion. Fainites, would you be willing to help out with this? Sunray (talk) 22:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My sincerest apologies if I've offended, everyone, but my remark about "half-an-arrogance" and reading was really intended as half-joke. I know full well Fainites read Ramet and more, and Nuujin researched this matter thoroughly - and you know I know. I am alarmed, however, at the unbridled aggression that is displayed by Fainites, probably due to perceived aggression on my part. Now that anything I write is being seen as an insult, it may well be our relations have passed the point of no return.

  • @Fainites. As I said, I know you researched this issue, and you know I know it, how could you have taken offence at what was obviously not a serious remark? Granted the smiley is missing, but still, it was an ironic joke - at my own expense no less. I was merely reccomending Tomasevich once more as a highly accalimed and specialized source. Though I am now starting to take offense at being referred to as "you people" and my painstaking attempts at discussion, which were making progress in determining our positions on this, made fun of as "tennis matches".
  • @Sunray. This is simply not an off-topic discussion, in fact unlike most of the gibberish in the mediation it actually concerns proposals for specific article changes regarding the main dispute - the collaboration. So again, it is not off-topic in any way.

In fact I feel that our two venerable admins have just gotten yourselves involved at the point where progress was starting to be made. TLDR indeed.. had you read the discussions you might've discovered that FkpCascais and myself have determined our positions on describing Chetnik collaboration in the lead are not so different, and were just moving on to Draža. (The remainder of the lead proposal is indeed, as Nuujin and myself pointed out, more than a bit misleading, badly sourced, and just plain wrong, but one subject at a time, methinks - if we can agree on the collaboration wording we've solved a huge chunk of the problem.)

So getting back on subject, Fkp, how would you cover the collaboration of Draža Mihailović in the lead? What is your proposal? But please keep the facts and sources in mind, and please lets focus on covering the collaboration itself, we can deal with the mitigating circumstances later. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 05:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

present introduction or lead paragraph is well made: on alternative I agree rewritten by FkpCascais--Tiblocco (talk) 07:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]