Talk:Chetniks: Difference between revisions
Peacemaker67 (talk | contribs) →Interwar period: cmt |
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*I think that this information should be part of the article, in my opinion this is important information for which I did not know about, nor have I read about it. Information is from quality RS so I suggest that this information be part of the article. [[User:Mikola22|Mikola22]] ([[User talk:Mikola22|talk]]) 09:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC) |
*I think that this information should be part of the article, in my opinion this is important information for which I did not know about, nor have I read about it. Information is from quality RS so I suggest that this information be part of the article. [[User:Mikola22|Mikola22]] ([[User talk:Mikola22|talk]]) 09:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC) |
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: It is already summarised in the article, I took out that level of detail because the article is already far too big. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 15:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC) |
: It is already summarised in the article, I took out that level of detail because the article is already far too big. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 15:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::I know it's too big and I support your work, but. You mean at this? ''"Subcommittees were also formed in Croatia, mostly in areas inhabited by Serbs"?''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetnik_war_crimes_in_World_War_II#Interwar_period] But the source states Zagreb, Osijek, Đakovo, Varaždin, Dubrovnik, Susak, Karlovac, Duga Resa (it seems to me that and Knin till beginning of WWII has mostly Croat population). At that time, the Serb population mostly lived in villages so there were some small number of Serbs in these cities(at that time), but these cities are not in area "mostly inhabited by Serbs" these cities are in most of Croatia where the majority of Serbs did not live. So for me it’s a very interesting fact. If there is a consensus to return this information I would be grateful if it won't be I respect that. This is not against you. [[User:Mikola22|Mikola22]] ([[User talk:Mikola22|talk]]) 15:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Massive changes to change the topics of the article
Massive changes of the article are performed without reaching consensus first.
I object massive changes performed by Peacemaker67 which changed this article from a summary article about all Chetniks into article about WWII Chetniks. Multiple previous discussions have never resulted with clear consensus about it. Massive changes should be reverted and repeated only after reaching the consensus at talkpage first. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Nonsense. The earlier Chetniks were already summarised in the Background section, and I have actually expanded the information about them. The body is about the DM Chetniks, and the later ones are still there at the end. The article has been about DM’s Chetniks (as the primary topic) for ages. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 14:56, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Its easy to check arichives of this talkpage and see that for example in this discussion you failed to gain consensus for your proposal because multiple editors rejected your proposal
"that this article remain at its current title and its scope be limited to the Mihailovic Chetniks during World War II..."
because they wanted it to stay broad concept summary article and/or to leaveChetniks as the main article with subsections for all, and then creating more detailed articles on Mihailovic Chetniks, Pecanac Chetniks and Chetniks (Macedonia)
. During one of earlier discussions (link) one editor explicitly stated diffI am supportive of splitting this article into a series of child articles, with this remaining as the summary article
. Another editor supported this position strugglingto still have one parent article which would be this one here and where all would be concisely included
Although you failed to gain consensus you performed massive changes (diffs) and changed the topics of this article from a summary article about all Chetniks into an article about WWII Chetniks (1941-45). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Its easy to check arichives of this talkpage and see that for example in this discussion you failed to gain consensus for your proposal because multiple editors rejected your proposal
- @Antidiskriminator. Just as you know how to write an article, someone else know how to edit an article. You have the whole talk page and expose all the quotes, informations and corrections which are wrong. I did not notice a problem in this edits. As far as I know Chetniks are best known for their activities in WWII, chapters in the article talk about the earlier period of Chetniks and later(Yugoslav Wars), but the construction must be from WWII. Most books, scientific papers, etc talk about that period. The article also mentions early actions of the Chetniks and their resistance against the occupying forces. Everything is listed as it should be. Mikola22 (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Peacemaker67: You have no consensus for your recent tweaks, undo yourself and join the TP debate. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:52, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Personally, I think the Peacemaker67's changes are remarkable and without a doubt a huge improvement. However, I also agree that the article is oversized (WP:AS) and little confusing, not to mention the lead and infobox. There should definitely be a separate article about Chetniks during World War II. (WP:SPLIT). Of course, the most important parts from that period should be left here as well. Another proposal is to make a separate article for Chetniks of Draža Mihailović (the Yugoslav Army in the Homeland / the Ravna Gora Movement), as there is for the Pećanac Chetniks.--WEBDuB (talk) 21:10, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Peacemaker67: You have no consensus for your recent tweaks, undo yourself and join the TP debate. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:52, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your support, Mikola22 and WEBDuB. This is a just a blatant attempt to derail a badly needed rewrite of this article by two editors who haven't even tried to substantially edit the article themselves in years, Antid and Sadko. When I started working on this article yesterday, the lead contained NO information about any other Chetniks than DMs, the Background contained information about earlier Chetniks (as is right, there is no other background to the DM Chetniks), the Body (World War II section) briefly mentioned Pećanac of course but was otherwise completely about DMs Chetniks, the Aftermath was about DMs Chetniks, the Legacy section was about the Chetniks in the 1990s (reflecting on the legacy of the DM Chetniks in those wars) and some historiography limited to the DM Chetniks, the Legacy section was almost entirely about the legacy of DMs Chetniks. NONE of that structure and barely any of the content has changed as a result of my edits, I did not change the structure at all, in fact. My supposed "massive" changes seem to be this diff in which I, among other completely uncontroversial things:
- changed the title at the top of the infobox to match the article title (I am completely open to changing it to the formal name of DMs Chetniks, "Yugoslav Army in the Homeland" per the guidance at Template:Infobox war faction
- changed the years in the infobox to match the years the DM Chetniks were active (as that is clearly what the lead and body of the article are about)
- brought the first sentence into line with MOS:LEADSENTENCE
I have also now fixed a significant number of citation issues, rewritten the Etymology section and added a fresh para to the retitled "Chetnik guerrillas to 1918" subsection of the Background to provide proper historical context to the emergence of the earlier Chetniks.
The changes in the linked diff were merely acknowledging the reality that the article lead and body is all about DMs Chetniks (and has been for years, despite unfounded protestations from the two editors above that the subject of the article is actually a summary article about all Chetniks, there is absolutely no evidence of that in the article itself), that the DM Chetniks are the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term "Chetniks", and in practical terms there is no way that one article can properly summarise all Chetniks across the ages within the article size restrictions given the enormous amount of sources on the primary topic, the DM Chetniks. The article is already WP:TOOLONG at 16,500 words, more than 50% over the recommended maximum size. Reasonable-sized articles now exist for all the "other" Chetniks: Serbian Chetnik Organization (1904–1908), Chetniks in the Balkan Wars (1912–1913), Chetniks in occupied Serbia (1916–18), Chetniks in the Interwar period (1918–1941), and Pećanac Chetniks (1941–1943) which would benefit from further development by interested editors, and they are all linked in this article, so there is now no excuse for those who want to retard the proper encyclopaedic development of this article that the information about other Chetniks is not covered in detail elsewhere. It already is, which it wasn't at the time of previous discussions. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:06, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Peacemaker I’m surprised to see you get blow back as the two editors taking Umbrage, I would think, would be fine with the edits you made. Not sure the controversy. I agree though that this article needs serious work. As appears be some filtering of WWII era crimes to clean up the purity of the Chetnik name. For example the lead mentioned the word genocide once to deny it. Leaving out a number of RS stating otherwise. Also a boiling down of crimes as simple justified “revenge” It is very much undue weight. I agree. As with many articles much work little time to do. OyMosby (talk) 04:44, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- G'day OyMosby. The lead will follow once the body has been rewritten. The main issue here is the complete fiction that the topic of this article is about "all Chetniks". For starters, the content of the article completely debunks that nonsense, because the lead and body (World War II section) have been about the DM Chetniks for years, with other Chetniks only in the Background and later sections. This is as it should be, because the DM Chetniks are the primary topic of the term "Chetniks", and separate articles now exist on all the other Chetniks, as I've linked above. Sources on the DM Chetniks completely dwarf the sources on all of the other Chetniks combined. This is an indisputable fact, and frankly, WP:BLUE. However, Antid wants this title kept for an overview, when that just isn't what we do on WP. What we actually do is look at two considerations per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:
- A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
- A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
- Examination of the DM Chetniks regarding both usage of the term "Chetniks" to overwhelmingly refer to the DM Chetniks, and the long-term significance of the DM Chetniks as opposed to any other Chetniks clearly points to the DM Chetniks being the primary topic of the term "Chetniks". Anyone with eyes and access to Google Books can see this for themselves, the first ten pages are almost all about the DM Chetniks, and even the ones that are primarily about other Chetniks also mention DMs Chetniks. To make sure people get to the right article, we add a hatnote at the top of the article confirming this article is about DMs Chetniks, and directing interest in other Chetniks to a dab page which lays them all out. That is what needs to be done here. This is WP 101 stuff, which Antid just doesn't seem to get. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with you Peacemaker67 100%. Chetniks many times refers to the MD Chetniks WWII era as per many sources tend to refer too. However there are things in the lead not even touched in the body of the article I don’t think. Such as McDonald’s views. As you said, as the body is improved, the intro will be as well afterwards. Cheers. OyMosby (talk) 09:56, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- G'day OyMosby. The lead will follow once the body has been rewritten. The main issue here is the complete fiction that the topic of this article is about "all Chetniks". For starters, the content of the article completely debunks that nonsense, because the lead and body (World War II section) have been about the DM Chetniks for years, with other Chetniks only in the Background and later sections. This is as it should be, because the DM Chetniks are the primary topic of the term "Chetniks", and separate articles now exist on all the other Chetniks, as I've linked above. Sources on the DM Chetniks completely dwarf the sources on all of the other Chetniks combined. This is an indisputable fact, and frankly, WP:BLUE. However, Antid wants this title kept for an overview, when that just isn't what we do on WP. What we actually do is look at two considerations per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:
- This debate is not Eurovision voting system; it's fairly simple - if you want to make massive and fundamental changes to the article - you should seek consensus, especially if there are other editors already disputing you. It is not that hard. Some of the tweaks are good, but not all, and there is no way that badgering the new version while labeling and naming other editors who disagree, as if they are doing something nasty. That's just wrong on so many levels and provides an example of other editors which will follow and behave in the same manners, which, in my opinion very much looks like WP:OWN. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 09:52, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- You haven't engaged in this "debate" at all. You demand that I revert what are pretty minor changes (not massive and fundamental changes at all) that merely align the article with its content and the clear primary topic, but haven't engaged with my arguments about the primary topic guidelines or existing content of the article. As far as I can see, several editors agree with my edits, so I won't be reverting the changes unless that changes. As far as I can see, you are being oppositional without any basis or argument. That is tendentious behaviour, and I'm not rewarding it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:57, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Information from the source
Ba Congress
The Ba Congress held in January 1944 marked a change in the main war objective of Chetniks, instead of their initial aim to restore the pre-war Yugoslavia as a unitary monarchy, they accepted Yugoslavia as a federal state structure with a dominant Serb federal unit
- Information from the source: Točka 4 b rezolucije kongresa kaže: "Jugoslavija treba da bude uređena kao federativna država u obliku ustavne i parlamentarne nasledne monarhije, sa narodnom dinastijom Karađorđevića i Kraljem Petrom II na čelu..." Item 4 b of the congress resolution says: "Yugoslavia should be organized as a federal state in the form of a constitutional and parliamentary hereditary monarchy, with the Karadjordjevic dynasty and King Peter II at the head. Jozo Tomasevich: Chetniks [1]
- It remains to be seen whether this information is for the introductory part and if this information is for introductory part then must be aligned with the source. Mikola22 (talk) 07:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- It needs to be tempered with the information regarding the real outcome of the Congress, per the Ba Congress article, which is that "The net effect of this, according to Tomasevich, was that the country would not only return to the same Serb-dominated state it had been in during the interwar period, but would be worse than that, particularly for the Croats." and "The historian Marko Attila Hoare agrees that despite its superficial Yugoslavism, the congress had clear Greater Serbia inclinations, and the historian Lucien Karchmar concludes that the usage of the term "Saint Sava Congress" reinforced the impression that it was focussed on the aspirations of Serbs rather than Yugoslavs in general." I doubt it will remain in the lead once the article has been rewritten, unless as a short sentence saying the Ba Congress was effectively abortive. But I do not envisage touching the lead significantly until the rest of the article has been rewritten. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:38, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
The Ravna Gora Movement
- Colonel Draža Mihailović, who was "interested in resisting the occupying powers", set up his headquarters in Ravna Gora and named his group "The Ravna Gora Movement" in order to distinguish it from the Pećanac Chetniks. However, other Chetniks were engaged in collaboration with the Germans and the Chetnik name became again associated with Mihailović. I edit this information according to the source, but we have and this information "kad je Mihailovićeva grupa shvatila da ne postoje nikakvi ostaci jugoslavenske vojske koji se bore u planinama unutrašnjosti, i prvih dana na Ravnoj Gori, ona se suočila s dilemom: da li se sa zakašnjenjem predati okupacionim vlastima i vjerojatno biti najoštrije kažnjen, ili postati jezgra pokreta otpora. Mihailović i njegovi ljudi odabrali su drugu alternativu i tako su počeli egzistirati kao vrlo sporan pokret otpora u Jugoslaviji. "when Mihailovic's group realized that there were no remnants of the Yugoslav army fighting in the mountains of the interior, even in the early days of Ravna Gora, it faced a dilemma: whether to be late to surrender to the occupying authorities and likely be severely punished, or to become the core resistance. Mihailović and his men chose the second alternative and thus began to exist as a very controversial resistance movement in Yugoslavia." This source and information does not mention any "order to distinguish it from the Pećanac Chetniks". and this information "Ubrzo nakon dolaska na Ravnu Goru, Mihailović i njegovi ljudi organizirali su komandno mjesto i prozvali se "Četnički odredi jugoslovenske vojske".."Shortly after arriving in Ravna Gora, Mihailovic and his men organized a command post and called themselves the "Chetnik Detachments of the Yugoslav Army". The name "The Ravna Gora Movement" is not mentioned here. Source: Jozo Tomasevich Chetniks [2] Mikola22 (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- That bit about "The Ravna Gora Movement" and "order to distinguish it from the Pećanac Chetniks" is actually in Roberts, not Tomasevich. I just checked it, and while I might change it slightly, it is essentially correct. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:09, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I know it's from Roberts(I did not properly separate this two sources) but this information below are from Tomasevich and they seem different in conclusion. Mikola22 (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Just because Tomasevich doesn't mention it (he actually has it in the index with a see wartime Chetniks), doesn't mean Roberts isn't right. Unless of course the majority of sources don't use the term. But in my experience, "The Ravna Gora Movement" is a well-known alternative name for the DM Chetniks, and Tomasevich having it in the index is good enough for me. There is no issue here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, but Tomasevich does not mention at all Pećanac in context ( distinguish it from the Pećanac Chetniks) because he states completely different reasons(as I see it). If there is no issue here I accept that. Mikola22 (talk) 09:44, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Just because Tomasevich doesn't mention it (he actually has it in the index with a see wartime Chetniks), doesn't mean Roberts isn't right. Unless of course the majority of sources don't use the term. But in my experience, "The Ravna Gora Movement" is a well-known alternative name for the DM Chetniks, and Tomasevich having it in the index is good enough for me. There is no issue here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I know it's from Roberts(I did not properly separate this two sources) but this information below are from Tomasevich and they seem different in conclusion. Mikola22 (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Instructions to Pećanac
In April and May 1941 the HQ of Yugoslav Royal Army entrusted Kosta Pećanac with task to establish guerilla Chetnik detachment(dubious).
- I find this information from Tomasevich Chetniks "Izgleda, nadalje, da se kratko vrijeme prije invazije vojska obratila Kosti Pećancu, dajući mu ovlaštenja, oružje i novac da organizira gerilske jedinice. O tome će još biti riječi"..."It appears, further, that shortly before the invasion, the army approached Kosta Pecanac, giving him powers, weapons, and money to organize guerrilla units. That will be discussed later." [3] So this information is probably correct. Mikola22 (talk) 09:46, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- The headquarters of the Yugoslav army surrendered on 17 April, so it would have been impossible for it to give Pećanac any tasks in May. That is what is highly dubious about this sentence. All the generals were travelling into exile with the government or were POWs from 17 April and in no position to issue orders to anyone. Both of the sources are Serb nationalist and revisionist historians (Ekmečić and Dimitrijević), and the statement defies logic. I'll be deleting it when I get to it. There are reliable sources that Pećanac was given the task of organising guerilla operations in southern Serbia shortly before the invasion (eg Tomasevich, 1975, p. 126) but not after it started or after the surrender. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:52, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- I have modified this to reflect what Tomasevich says. As far as I am concerned, this is resolved, the tag has been removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- The headquarters of the Yugoslav army surrendered on 17 April, so it would have been impossible for it to give Pećanac any tasks in May. That is what is highly dubious about this sentence. All the generals were travelling into exile with the government or were POWs from 17 April and in no position to issue orders to anyone. Both of the sources are Serb nationalist and revisionist historians (Ekmečić and Dimitrijević), and the statement defies logic. I'll be deleting it when I get to it. There are reliable sources that Pećanac was given the task of organising guerilla operations in southern Serbia shortly before the invasion (eg Tomasevich, 1975, p. 126) but not after it started or after the surrender. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:52, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Excuse facts?
- Collaboration with the Independent State of Croatia
- After the 1941 split between the Partisans and the Chetniks in occupied Serb territory, the Chetnik groups in central, eastern, and northwestern Bosnia, specifically the Dinara Division, found themselves caught between the German and Ustaše (NDH) forces on one side and the Partisans on the other. In early 1942 Chetnik Major Jezdimir Dangić approached the Germans in an attempt to arrive at an understanding, but was unsuccessful, and the local Chetnik leaders were forced to look for another solution
- This introduction, in my opinion seems like excuse for collaboration. Given that first sentences are introduction to this section and because they give a one-sided view of things ie OR, these facts should not be without confirmation in the source. The Chetniks could join the Partisans and become Partisans, no one forbade them to do so. We do not know situation at that time especially for all areas and all "Chetnik leaders", the Italians (which are not mentioned here) are close by, with whom the Chetniks have good relations. For that reason, until quality sources appear which confirm this facts I suggest that this information be removed from the article. They can easily return to the introductory part when RS appears. Mikola22 (talk) 09:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- These sentences have been tagged as needing a RS for two years, just delete them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
Ideology
I have placed a link to the relevant section for Ideology in the infobox and removed the list that was there. This is because the issue is complex, some claims are contested and complex issues are not best explained in an infobox. It will also help to reduce infobox edit-warring, as ideologies are a common subject for such activity. All of the ideologies that were in the infobox list are now covered in appropriate detail in the relevant section. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Dubious claim about proportion of Muslim Chetniks at end of 1943
I have tagged DM's claim (in Malcolm) as dubious, Hoare (p. 51) clearly states that after the Partisans entered eastern Herzegovina in July 1943 and killed the two leaders, the Muslim National Military Organisation (ie Muslim Chetniks) disintegrated, so how could they have had 4,000 members at the end of that year? More reliable sources are going to be needed for this extraordinary claim. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- That part of the article says that
A few Sandžak and Bosnian Muslims supported Mihailović, but according to the historian Noel Malcolm, Mihailović claimed that in December 1943, Muslims comprised up to eight percent of his forces, numbering about 4,000
. It is patent that it is a claim made by DM, not a given fact. For more clarification, one could add next to it Hoare, sth in the lines of "However, Hoare notes that the Partisans entered eastern Herzegovina in July 1943 and killed the two leaders, and the Muslim National Military Organisation disintegrated", or whatever Hoare says about the issue. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:19, 9 August 2020 (UTC)- Yes, we could do that, however that approach would be giving what is a dubious (and basically self-serving) claim undue weight. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:57, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- So do you propose that the best solution is the removal of the claim? Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, we could do that, however that approach would be giving what is a dubious (and basically self-serving) claim undue weight. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:57, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Interwar period
Available documentation shows that in Croatia from 1934 Chetnik subcommittees were established in a number of cities such as Zagreb, Sisak, Bjelovar, Osijek, Našice, Virovitica, Vukovar, Nova Gradiška, Okučani, Đakovo, Koprivnica, Križevci, Varaždin, Duga Resa, Drežnica, Gospić, Donji Lapac, Gračac, Karlovac, Knin, Drniš, Kistanje, Dubrovnik, Susak. Escalation of ethnic relations, especially the conflict between Serbs and Croats was certainly influenced by creating these organizations.[1]
- I think that this information should be part of the article, in my opinion this is important information for which I did not know about, nor have I read about it. Information is from quality RS so I suggest that this information be part of the article. Mikola22 (talk) 09:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
- It is already summarised in the article, I took out that level of detail because the article is already far too big. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 15:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
- I know it's too big and I support your work, but. You mean at this? "Subcommittees were also formed in Croatia, mostly in areas inhabited by Serbs"?[4] But the source states Zagreb, Osijek, Đakovo, Varaždin, Dubrovnik, Susak, Karlovac, Duga Resa (it seems to me that and Knin till beginning of WWII has mostly Croat population). At that time, the Serb population mostly lived in villages so there were some small number of Serbs in these cities(at that time), but these cities are not in area "mostly inhabited by Serbs" these cities are in most of Croatia where the majority of Serbs did not live. So for me it’s a very interesting fact. If there is a consensus to return this information I would be grateful if it won't be I respect that. This is not against you. Mikola22 (talk) 15:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)