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Based on my personal experience as a student at Pomona, the traditions section seems to focus disproportionately focus on minor traditions while ignoring some major ones.

Regarding the ones currently mentioned:

- "47" is by far Pomona's most significant tradition; it deserves more coverage.

- Ski-Beach Day is a moderately important tradition; it has a bit too much.

- Mufti and the Star Trek connection are both relatively unimportant; I know many students who have not heard about either of those, whereas I could not imagine a student not knowing about 47, and I'd be surprised to find someone who didn't know about Ski-Beach Day. I think they should be mentioned only very briefly, if at all.

Regarding ones missing:

- Fountaining (it is never called "ponding" at Pomona) people on their birthdays is a fairly significant tradition (probably more so than ski-beach day, and most certainly more so than Mufti and the Star Trek connection). It's something every student experiences, and it deserves a section.

- Cup dropping is something that happens in Frary as a chain reaction whenever someone drops a cup. The high rate of participation and the unique noise created make it definitely more than just "a group of teenagers who want to create noise and annoy people," as an earlier post implied. It's generally considered annoying by many students, but it's a tradition nevertheless.

- Snack is commonly called a Pomona tradition, although it's declined in significance due to the College reducing the quality of food served in recent years. It's something that happens at a lot of places, so I think it deserves mention, but maybe in the "student life" section instead of the "traditions" section.

Sdkb (talk) 07:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article sometimes refers the first-year class as the "freshman class," which is not commonly used on campus (it is frowned upon as gender normative). The older classes are referred to as the "sophomore," "junior," and "senior" classes, which are used more frequently but are also frowned upon as derogatory reinforcing a class hierarchy. I think that the names should be standardized to the "first-year class," "second-year class," etc.

Sdkb (talk) 07:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The section on the campus needs revision. The top of the section splits the discussion between north campus and south campus, but everything after that jumps around to random spots. The distinction between south campus and north campus seems unnecessarily vague (e.g. "with a few exceptions"); from my understanding, the current norm is that Sixth Street is a hard line. It seems to list nearly every building, including some (Lincoln/Edmunds) that aren't as significant now as they were when they were newly constructed. Could someone please reorganize it?

Sdkb (talk) 07:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi guys, I don't know how to edit on Wikipedia, so can someone please do these for me? The current page is very much out of date.

"The school enrolls 1,548 students" should be 1560. http://www.pomona.edu/about/facts-and-figures/pomona-profile.aspx "is the 9th most selective college in the United States"- not true. Also this is vague, what is most selective? Better to say has the 13th lowest acceptance rate of any college in the USA, source http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-13/news/31335189_1_rates-harvard-university-stanford-university

Campus: should have sections on the new dorms at Pomona that are leed platinum certified (http://www.pomona.edu/news/2011/10/12-leed-platinum-dorms.aspx) as well as planning of new arts building (http://www.pomona.edu/news/2011/08/25-studio-art-building.aspx) and physics/math building (http://www.pomona.edu/news/2011/11/09-millikan-renovation.aspx)

The most popular major link is http://www.pomona.edu/administration/registrar/reports-statistics/majors-minors/declared-majors.pdf

Acceptance rate for class of 2016- http://www.pomona.edu/administration/institutional-research/common-data-set/12-13/C-Admissions.pdf- ie. 12.96% Medians: 720 CR 720 M 730 W % Valedictorian- 19.1 %in top 10- 91.3% (http://www.pomona.edu/Admissions/files/2016-profile.pdf)

Diversity- http://www.pomona.edu/about/facts-and-figures/pomona-profile.aspx- also could mention 9.5% international students

"Approximately 55% of students received financial aid awards in 2012-2013." (http://www.pomona.edu/Admissions/files/2016-profile.pdf) Average award: $37,900 (all grants, Pomona doesn't have loans anymore). Cost for 2012-2013: $54,964.

Endowment for the 2010 year, more recent: http://www.edpolicythoughts.com/2012/01/top-50-endowments-per-pupil.html Pomona has the 4th largest endowment per student of any liberal arts college or university

Rankings:

Princeton Review: 2012: http://www.pomona.edu/news/2012/08/21-princeton-review.aspx Best-Run College (No. 6) Great Financial Aid (No. 6) Their Students Love These Colleges (No. 6) Least Religious Students (No. 9) Happiest Students (No. 10) Most Accessible Professors (No. 11) Best College Dorms (No. 14) Best Quality of Life (No. 16)

2 on Kiplinger Best Value (http://www.kiplinger.com/tool/college/T014-S001-kiplinger-s-best-values-in-private-colleges/index.php?table=lib_arts&state_code%5B%5D=ALL&id%5B%5D=none)

5 on Princeton Review Best Values 2013 (http://www.princetonreview.com/best-value-press-release.aspx)

4 on New Ivies 2013 by Unigo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/unigo/top-10-new-ivies-2013_b_1844804.html#slide=1427102)

1 on freshmen retention rate for LACs (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges/freshmen-least-most-likely-return)

1 on highest graduation rates four year for all universities and LACs (http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate)

Campus Organizations: 227 and counting just at Pomona (http://www.pomona.edu/life-on-campus/organizations-and-clubs/a-sample-of-clubs.aspx) The big head of the organizations is Associated Students of Pomona(ASPC)- http://www.pomona.edu/administration/campus-center/services-programs/aspc-office.aspx

As these two buildings mark the most significant change to the Pomona campus since the Smith Campus Center was built, I thought it worthwhile to add some information about them.Robert Gerrity (talk) 20:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Totally not a tradition. It happens everywhere that there's a group of teenagers who want to create noise and annoy people--there's no way it's specifically a Pomona tradition in the same way that Mufti and 47 are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goodbyewaffles (talk • contribs) 00:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why on earth is the stuff about fraternities at the top of (and taking up half of) the student life section? Moreover, in what way do they remain a part of college life? They exist, apparently, and they throw occasional parties, which makes them as much a part of college life as my next-door neighbor, who is not on this page.

Unless someone can give a really compelling reason to give the frats that much space in the student life section, I'm cutting it. That's ridiculous - mentioning that three local frats exist is sufficient.

Response, 5/2015: The frats perform a lot of charity work and provide regular social functions that are free and open to anyone. Despite all your school's drivel of social justice, I don't see any of you going out and becoming a member of an ethnically diverse group of people that engages the disadvantaged around the area. Additionally, the frats sponsor and throw weekly keggers as well as THE headlining parties of the 5C. Again, I don't see any of you throwing free, public keggers and mixers. If you've never done a Colorado Mother****** with NAP or partied with the KD guys, then you're probably the same loser who felt the need to throw shade here and put in that the frats "don't have any impact on student life." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.32.32.211 (talk) 01:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Uh...neither myself nor any of my Pomona alumnus friends have heard of the "flaming owl" part of the mascot name story. I'm going to remove it. Er 17:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well... actually this is supposedly true according to official Pomona College tour guides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.90.141 (talk) 09:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is my understanding that Pomona has multiple co-ed fraternities. NAP and KOE were the recognized ones when I graduated, and there were a few co-ed frats that were "hovering" near official recognition. I am not currently a student however, so I am curious as to what is the case now.

I think the four main fraternities on campus are Kappa Delta, Sig Tau, Phi Delta and Nu Alpha Phi (the last of which is co-ed).

I learned from my "alumni volunteer" info that there are in fact 4 recognized frats and one sorority. # of them are co-ed.

I added more about the fraternities that are still on campus (Kappa Delta, Sigma Tau, and Nu Alpha Phi)...Phi Delta was kicked off campus a while back...there were originally 7 fraternities on campus...does anyone know what the original seven were? (Obviously the 3 current ones: Kappa Delta, Sigma Tau, and Nu Alpha Phi...Phi Delta plus 3 others) And, when they were disbanded/kicked off campus? I am a current student and part of KD, so I know a lot about KD, but not the other frats. Also, what about a section about the Fred Sontag adn the Sontag Greek Theater (The Wash). He has been at Pomona for almost 60 years, and the KD faculty adviser for just as long? Thoughts... RIDGE 23:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)RIDGE[reply]

Jim Taylor, a former football player with the Green Bay Packers, is incorrectly listed as a Pomona alumnus. I'm sure that the person who was meant to be listed was Jim Taylor (Class of 1984), the screenwriter of the movie "Sideways".

Remember, this is a wiki, so you can be bold if you spot a mistake. I've fixed the link to Jim Taylor (writer), which was confirmed by this Pomona magazine article. — Laura Scudder | Talk 21:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

anyone else think that the long lists should go after the text info about the college??? I do. Any objections? If not, i'll do it beofre too long. (or maybe after) Reggaedelgado 08:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please do. Once I see lists I begin to assume that I've hit the end of the text. -Willmcw 08:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure that such specific zeta psi info is needed, without specifics about the other frats. That would end up making this an article about the frats at pomona, and anybody who knows the school knows that would be inappropriate. Reggaedelgado 08:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That deserves a Chirp of agreement. We're already in danger of having the word count about frats imply a different role in campus life than exists. Coll7 20:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I saw someone edited the entry about snack out. I think this is an important part of Pomona's campus life, and I was just wondering what the rationale was for taking it out. bjackrian 19:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to add an internal link to the new KSPC wikipedia article and an external link to the website, but the article is protected. Who can I ask to add this the site? RODQL08

To whoever is adding the gossip site, please don't. Our guideline on such links is at WP:EL. -Will Beback 04:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to remove the sentence about the Borg being based on Oldenberg Hall - I heard the same rumor at Caltech. Sarah Thomson 04:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well it is true that a writer for Star Trek, Joe Menosky, went to Pomona, graduating in 1979; Oldenborg Center was definitely around at the time. Also, the College itself promotes the idea with these pages:

• "Pomoniana - Star Trek Connection"
• "Pomoniana - The Borg"

Vter4life 22:14, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I used Microsoft MapPoint to confirm that Pomona College is either 30.5 miles (direct) or 33 miles (by road) from Los Angeles City Hall. The listed value was 47 miles, which is untrue and an likely another attempt to include this number in the article.

Perhaps if you measured the direct distance more precisely it'd turn out to be 30.47 miles. -Will Beback 21:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Believe it or not, when I was living in LA and commuting to do my radio show at KSPC, it really was 40+ miles. Reggaedelgado 23:20, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe what they meant to say is that Pomona is off of exit 47, which is true. --Chuchunezumi 06:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Though admittedly the administration of the school does speak fondly of this organization on their website and in brochures, etc., the group is widely regarded by the student body as somewhere between inconsequential and outright destructive, their glued signs being impossible to remove, and often placed and walls and even statues on campus. While perhaps a cute alternative to Ivy League secret societies, they don't really deserve that kind of representation in the article. If a unique tradition is needed in that space, "ponding," the act of puting fellow students in one of the many campus fountains on thier birthday, would be a much more relevant entry. Unless I hear objections in the next few weeks, I'll likely delete it.

You make a good point about the destructiveness that Mufti is known for. It should be noted, however, that after the vandalism that took place on campus last spring, Mufti responded with removable signs condemning the vandals, and that they had perhaps changed their ways (I wish I could source this, but can't find a record of this). Regardless, the Mufti organization is important, not only as a tradition, but for spurring discussion on campus. I do agree, though, that the 'ponding' idea (though I've only ever heard it called 'fountaining') is a good one. Maybe that could be added as well? --Vter4life 18:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I do not remember the removable signs (I'm sure they put them up), I am almost certain more glued signs were placed around campus, although perhaps in less destructive locations, creating further mess. It may be an important tradition, but one that, as far as I can tell, is more or less on its way out, as the society is not really secret (they have a Facebook group, revealing both their members and meeting place/time) and they generally are not especially appreciated among the student body. As for "fountaining" (I think "ponding" is a term I picked up from friends at CMC and Scripps), if I find the time I'll write it in, and perhaps see if I can't at least edit down the MUFTI section, as I feel strongly it dominates entirley too much of the article. If a member of the group would like to do this, all the better.--Mikep09 01:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree...MUFTI was nothing more than an entertaining distraction, and has never played an important role in campus life. I never saw MUFTI involve itself in anything serious: basically they were waiting for an opportunitiy to make themselves look clever. Pomona College is not bereft of wit. MUFTI is just bereft of originality. I feel as though any addition of MUFTI should reflect that this organization exists only for controversy, which is the fodder upon which they feed. They played no significant role in changing anything. They exist only to spawn discord. --Chuchunezumi 07:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think if Pomona is bold enough to brag about them on their website (and for 2 years I did see plenty of MUFTI activity), it think it should be noted in the article. I dont think everyone looks down at MUFTI —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.90.141 (talk) 09:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really too lazy to find a good place for this, so: Jimmy Neutron was invited to attend Pomona College, but eventually decided to return to his elementary school. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 01:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One of the writers is an engineering graduate from California State Polytechnic University, Pomona (Cal Poly Pomona). In the show, he doesn't say "Pomona College", he says "Pomona School of Advanced Physics" --134.71.92.66 (talk) 21:09, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one on Wikipedia to survive Pomona College. Someone (ducks out of the way) should do a Pomona College Userbox/category for us. Cheers! --Chuchunezumi 20:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, and when I get done with the other articles I'm tending, I think a few things should be added to this. Marching in and out of the gates is a tradition, moreso than Ski and Surf Day, which, regardless of what the article says, I really heard nothing about in four years there. If anything, I'm shocked that nobody said anything about Walker Wall, the CMS-PP rivalry in athletics, or for that matter, Cecil Sagehen. --Chuchunezumi 20:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ski-beach day sounds more familiar. Thanks to the editor who changed that. School-sponsored events never captured my interest, but I couldn't fathom never hearing the name.  :) --Chuchunezumi 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Haha, wow, I was just writing a response to your comment (as well as a note that I had changed the name to 'Ski-Beach'), but as soon as I saved, you had already written something else! Yeah, the name seemed strange, as Pomona certainly calls it Ski-Beach. By the way, I agree with the other tradition ideas, and if I get a chance, would be happy to contribute on some of those. Don't know much about userboxes though, I'm afraid. --Vter4life 06:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you can't do it now, or at all, leave it and maybe we can get around to it! Perhaps you can help by editing for these topics, then removing them from this list.

• THE WASH!
• Ponding (and perhaps the arson problem at the Frary Fountain, heheh)
• Walker Wall
• Marching through the gates
• Significant buildings on campus
• Significant art (the Orozco mural in Frary, for example)
• Athletics (including rivalries, titles, etc.)
• Notable professors (not favorites, but maybe someone like Leonard Pronko, who is an internationally recognized authority in his area, or Millikin)
• Discussion of campus life activities (the Senate, Snack, fraternities, etc.)
• Trivia (For example, though I am NOT suggesting this example be added, DQ's red shoes)

--Chuchunezumi 07:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A good place to look up some traditions as well (for anyone working on this) is at Pomona's Pomoniana page. It does a pretty good job covering many of these topics, and makes our lives easier, too ;) --Vter4life 07:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And in the spirit of Pomona and its founders, perhaps we should try to base this page's on another higher institution's page, like one of the Ivies? They do look pretty nice...--Vter4life 07:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember that whatever is added needs to be verifiable by any editor. Are any of the student newspapers, or even local newspapers, available online? The Pomoniana would also be a good source. -Will Beback 17:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Student Life archives its articles online. I'm sure that we can find the Los Angeles Times online as well. I think the Ivy League pages would be a good idea as models. --Chuchunezumi 17:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--Well, one thing down, with the History section. Lots more to go.Vter4life 01:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--It also looks like it might be time to cut down on that Alumni Section. It's getting long and monotonous.Vter4life 01:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Since I feel like I'm on a roll working on Wikipedia again, I went to the WikiProject: University page and I think that this is a great guide for how to improve this article! Vter4life 04:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm deleting the 'bricking' section for a couple reasons:

First, there are no citations

Second, it's certainly not a current tradition

Third, the section doesn't even say what bricking is, only that it was 'vaguely sexual' and Mufti is 'rumored' to be a holdover from this practice

If anyone can validate this practice, with sources, or even anecdotes, then maybe it could be put back up, with some more explanation as to what bricking actually is. Vter4life 18:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've worked on a History section for the article; most of the information I got from the history page on Pomona's website the Claremont University Consortium site, as well as some what I thought would be general knowledge. If there are more things that need to be cited (that are not general) I'll be happy to work on that. I feel like there may (eventually) be a few things in that section which could have their own articles, too, like James Blaisdell or even Sumner Hall. All in good time. Anyway, I'd love to hear thoughts on the new history section and what else could be added to it.Vter4life 01:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just completed work on a new Campus section and put it up. Also included a couple pictures, although some more concrete pictures (of buildings, etc.) wouldn't hurt either. Once I'm back on campus, that should be easy to do. I'm just plugging away at that template. I think I may work on the traditions section next; it need a lot of work. Comments and thoughts are appreciated, because I feel like it may be a bit strange that I'm working on such huge chunks of the article, but like they say, be bold!-Vter4life 09:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New Academic Profile. Next will probably be a new 'Rankings' section. - Vter4life 07:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rankings section replaces old Reputation section. It's a bit on the small side, but there isn't much to put there, as compared to featured university articles like Duke or Cornell. -Vter4life 08:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also reworked the intro, tried to lengthen it a bit. I think once the article as a whole is further along, it'll be easier to write a good, relevant intro. -Vter4life 08:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone verify the West Wing claim? Which season's Christmas episode or what scenes were filmed in Bridges Auditorium?

-It seems unlikely. Once I get around to editing the Student Life section and beyond, it seems necessary that the Hollywood section will have to go. It's unnecessary, unencyclopedic and unsourced. Vter4life 00:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--It appears to be taken almost verbatim from this page http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/PCMsp05/FSfilmtimeline.shtml, an online version of Pomona's college magazine.

The Absent Minded Professor was a 1961 film. There is little indication the "meme" started that early --JimWae (talk) 22:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I stumbled across this article entirely accidentally but I couldn't help but notice that it has a few rather statements, particuarly the "political corectness" section, which makes assertions that are not backed up by any kind of credible source. I tagged that section with the POV tag (it says article, not section, I know but it makes the point). Also, I perused the footnotes and noticed that the vast majority of sources are primary- ie they link back to the college. When making potentially POV or controversial statements, it is essential to back them up with WP:RS. HJMitchell You rang? 14:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

-I removed the ridiculous portions of the Political Correctness section. The cited article for the first paragraph says nothing about classism and the last paragraph is uncited. The second paragraph (sentence) needs work because it's clearly vitriolic. It lacks citations and presupposes that people would have known immediately that it was a hoax (which is facially absurd). DarkRain42 (talk) 04:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DarkRain42: What exactly was "non-sensical" about the sentence "Pomona College courses often privilege Neo-Marxist viewpoints to the exclusion of other ideologies."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.192.187 (talk) 02:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A section has been added for labor conflicts. It seems like the section should be removed per WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM, and WP:UNDUE. Any other thoughts? Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 18:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

-considering that this issue is something pushed for by a majority of students and workers, it seems appropriate to add it here. labor conflicts seem also to have been a large part of pomona college history, although the addition of more labor history may be appropriate in this situation then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.92.231 (talk) 05:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence "Many[citation needed] people believe that the college began looking into employees' work authorizations as a way to thwart unionization, although the college president, David Oxtoby, has repeatedly denied these allegations" is irresponsible and misleading. It is not just that Oxtoby has denied the allegations; the allegations have been proven time and again to be factually untrue. The burden of proof when making an accusation of this sort lies with the accuser, especially in an article that claims to have a neutral POV. I've removed the sentence and touched up the surrounding section. 18:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.154.92 (talk)

Almost all of this article's links to the Pomona College website are broken. I wanted to see a picture of Cecil Sagehen =(. It seems the problem is due to a recently relaunched Pomona website? Agnosticaphid (talk) 17:21, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a convincing source that it did not close a minstrel show: http://choatelaw.net/pomona_report.htm JimWae (talk) 20:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100722002641/http://www.pomona.edu:80/Magazine/pcmfl00/1.shtml to http://www.pomona.edu/Magazine/pcmfl00/1.shtml

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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 37 external links on Pomona College. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060901071758/http://www.pomona.edu/welcome/aboutpomona/history.shtml to http://www.pomona.edu/welcome/aboutpomona/history.shtml
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120223045433/http://pomona.edu/about/pomoniana/oldenborg-center.aspx to http://www.pomona.edu/about/pomoniana/oldenborg-center.aspx
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121016162823/http://pomona.edu/academics/curriculum/by-the-numbers.aspx to http://www.pomona.edu/academics/curriculum/by-the-numbers.aspx
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130830021815/http://www.pomona.edu/admissions/files/pomona-preview.pdf to http://www.pomona.edu/admissions/files/pomona-preview.pdf
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080705043740/http://www.pomona.edu/Pomoniana/skibeachday.shtml to http://www.pomona.edu/Pomoniana/skibeachday.shtml
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101128042936/http://pomona.edu/administration/communications/special-features/alma-mater/alma-mater.aspx to http://www.pomona.edu/administration/communications/special-features/alma-mater/alma-mater.aspx
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150411183046/http://www.pomona.edu/news/2012/04/16-schmich-pulitzer.aspx to http://www.pomona.edu/news/2012/04/16-schmich-pulitzer.aspx

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It appears an editor has been repeatedly attempting to add a section about the Alice Goffman controversy. Such an addition would violate WP:PROPORTION, since there have been dozens of controversies at Pomona in the past decade or so of equal or greater significance (e.g. Yenli Wong, Yi Li, etc.). It did not generate anywhere near the level of disruption or media coverage of the dining hall workers controversy or the alma mater controversy. – Sdkb (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this incident merits at most a sentence or two but I am also fine with it being omitted unless it develops into something more than a one-off disagreement. However, editors interested in this general topic may want to take a look at our article(s) about ethnography; I'm not an anthropologist or an ethnographer but it seems that Goffman's book and the surrounding issues have generated a renewed interest in some of the ethical challenges and responsibilities related to ethnography e.g., [1], [2]. ElKevbo (talk) 03:55, 14 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relative to all the other organizations on campus, the Organic Farm and the Draper Center both have WP:UNDUE in my view and should be significantly reduced so that they're given attention proportional to other organizations of similar stature (e.g. TSL, CCBDC). Another option would be to spin them out into separate articles, as was done with The Student Life, but I'm not sure if they'd qualify as notable. Anyone have thoughts or want to take a stab at it? - Sdkb (talk) 06:38, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The history section could use some information between 1925 and 1997. When it's re-written, I'd recommend incorporating the "controversies section" into the broader history section rather than separating it out, per WP:CSECTION. - Sdkb (talk) 07:31, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The lede sentence of this article had this language in it: "...often referred to as the premier liberal arts college on the West Coast." This was supported by two references: Fiske Guide to Colleges 2019 ("The great Eastern-style liberal arts college of the West, and one of the few that Easterners will travel west to attend") and a Forbes article Top 25 Colleges In The West 2017 ("Pomona, with its reputation as the finest liberal arts school in the West, sees graduates with mid-career salaries averaging $96,900.").

I have multiple objections to including this phrase in the article, especially in the lede and especially in the lede sentence. First, I don't think it's every necessary to include this kind of information in the very first sentence of an article. For colleges and universities, the lede sentence almost universally presents the institution's name, governance (public or private), broad classification of level (e.g., research university, liberal arts college, community college), and location. Those are the most essential facts and that's what should be in the very first sentence.

I do agree that in a handful of articles we should include information about prestige in the lede paragraph because for a handful of institutions that is critical information. But we have to be careful to use the highest quality sources to make such a strong claim and the 2 sources cited for this phrase don't come anywhere near close enough to justify including it as written. In a nutshell, we need high quality sources that actually support the claim. It's synthesis for a Wikipedia editor to look at two recent rankings and draw the conclusion that this institution anything "often" happens much less that it's referred to in this specific way. I recommend that editors interested in this topic refer to the language that is included in the lede for Harvard University and the associated Talk page discussions where we came to that consensus a few years ago; please note in particular the number and caliber of sources that are used to support that claim. Note further that it's not made in the opening sentence (although it is included in the first paragraph).

(It's also worth mentioning that the "Forbes article" cited in the previous text isn't a Forbes article but an article written by a "Forbes contributor;" it's essentially a Forbes-hosted blog post. The author identifies himself as an intern working at Forbes over the summer.)

ElKevbo (talk) 01:55, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking this to the discussion page, ElKevbo. I disagree with your removal of that information from the lede. To respond to your points:

Regarding the importance of the information: I'd agree with you that the very basic "essential facts" are most important, and indeed, they were the very first information listed. But as for what should go right after that? If Pomona came up in a conversation and someone asked "what is that," it'd be very likely that an informed person would reply something along the lines of "it's the best liberal arts college on the West Coast," so I'd say Pomona's reputation is, in fact, essential information about it. You could reasonably argue that it'd more properly belong in the second sentence than the first, but the language flows better when the information is added as a clause in the first sentence than if it was separated out into a second sentence.

Regarding the sourcing: In my view, either source would be sufficient to support the claim in the article, since both are not offering individual opinions, but rather themselves synthesizing widely held views. To say that something has "a reputation as X" is the same as saying it's "often referred to as X," so the language in the article was just rephrasing the sources. (I'd also accept "widely regarded as", if we want alternative phrasing.) One source would have been sufficient, but since it's a strong claim, it's reasonable to have two for redundancy. As for the comparison to Harvard, I would expect there to be far more attention paid, on a page as trafficked as that one, to finding all the sources to support the claim of prestige; that doesn't mean they don't also likely exist for Pomona. I wasn't able to find the discussion you referred to in Harvard's talk archives, but if you're able to find it and want to point to something specific in it, I'd be interested. - Sdkb (talk) 02:58, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The topic has come up several times but it looks like a lot of the discussion about Harvard occurred early in 2012 which is in archive 4. It looks like there is a related sandbox or workshop page, too. ElKevbo (talk) 03:14, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I just looked through a bunch of the discussion. I actually agree with most of what you said about mentioning prestige being appropriate for only a few institutions at the very top of any given domain. I'd just argue that liberal arts is a domain as much as any other, and that Pomona is clearly regarded as at least one of the top liberal arts colleges, and possibly the top one. - Sdkb (talk) 04:23, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like a huge violation of WP:DUE to insist that such a strong claim be included in the very first sentence based solely on one 2019 popular press publication. Further, the claim seems to go well beyond the quote from the cited source. ElKevbo (talk) 01:46, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're bringing up two new arguments there. Regarding due weight, nearly any source describing Pomona is going to mention its prestige right up front (here's an example of the NYT doing so), so I wouldn't consider a description of Pomona's reputation at all unbalanced relative to the body of published material. Regarding the language, it mirrors the Forbes article extremely closely and the Fiske Guide text reasonably so (especially considering the context of the rest of the entry). - Sdkb (talk) 06:29, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We're allowed to raise additional arguments. :)

You really need to drop the Forbes "article;" it's such a poor source that it's honestly hurting your case. If there are other high quality sources like the NYT, you should compile them and post them here in Talk. I'd be particularly interested in scholarly sources.

But regardless of the sources you compile, I can't imagine that you'll ever convince me that this information needs to go into the very first sentence of this article. This information will never be as essential as the basic facts already described above. I think there is already project-wide consensus on this issue as I don't know of any article about a U.S. college or university that has information like this in the first sentence, including articles about institutions more prestigious than this college. Among the Featured and Good Articles about colleges and universities, there are several of the most prestigious institutions in the country and the world and those articles include that information in the opening paragraph but never in the lede sentence and usually at the end of the paragraph. ElKevbo (talk) 10:50, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just to reinforce these points, the lede should be balanced as ElKevbo points out. The use of Premier liberal arts college on the West Coast is inappropriate because it is not neutral, it is a form of WP:puffery and does not provide the reader information that is representative of all institutions in this category. Randomeditor1000 (talk) 13:47, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]