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How is "most interesting personalities" NPOV?

I have noticed you (okay, better say, "we") are facing some troubles finding sources in this article, so I though of sharing the way I quickly collect and prepare references!

For Google Books

• I start searching from this page (preview and full view only, I have this page in bookmark).
• After getting search results, I try to ignore some publication books like Gyan Publication (mirror of Wikipedia).
• When I think one one or more citation page is reliable and alright to add as reference, I do not prepare the citation manually. I use this external tool http://reftag.appspot.com/ (this one too added in bookmark) to quickly prepare the citation and then copy paste in article.

Websites

• I always start by searching Government documents. Hope you know it, still, add inurl:gov in your search query to get Government documents. For example search query "Kabir Guru Nanak inurl:gov" gives these results

Sarabseth,
About your comment that people often change Kabir's birth year to 1398– I can add at least 15 reliable refs there to support 1440 (but I too dislike reference flooding). I added only 1 Government documents actually I noticed there are many more good references to source. Please have a look at all the search results. What do you think– US Government document etc will be more helpful here? (be careful before adding Orissa Government refs, they sometimes copy from Wikipedia) --Tito Dutta ✉

please look on the vandalism that this user does...

more in general, this page is continuously violated by many people... We are talking about the founder (or co-founder) of various religious and spiritual movements, is there some way to protect it a bit more? Many thanks... If you look on the history of the page, you can see that very often me or somebody else should look more than one time per day at this page to clean it up of the mess they do... --GurDass (talk) 19:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC) Created an entry at the relevant page for user's vandalism Hybirdd (talk) 20:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The page was vandalized on 5 March 2014 by THIS EDIT (DIFF). Unfortunately, no-one restored the deleted material, which included many scholarly references (e.g., to studies published by Oxford University Press). As the above-linked DIFF shows, the deletion appears to have been ideologically motivated (the vandalizing editor called Kabir a "liar" because he allegedly holds a mistaken view of God). We should be vigilant that such deletions of sourced material do not occur again, since deleting relevant and sourced scholarship is contrary to the core purpose of Wikipedia. -- Presearch (talk) 04:58, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One of the four paragraphs of the now restored material (diff) was not well sourced. It stated: "It is not known in detail what sort of spiritual training Kabir may have received. He did not become a sadhu, nor did he ever abandon worldly life. Kabir chose instead to live the balanced life of a householder and mystic, a tradesman and contemplative." My impression is that this material is in accordance with standard Kabir scholarship, and it should not be hard to find citations, if desired. However, I do not have time to do that at present, so I hope someone else will, if the need is felt for sourcing. --Presearch (talk) 05:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone sure if these quotes actually refer to women in general or just to Maya (illusion), who Kabir sometime personified as "the woman"? The citations doesn't mention where Kabir said these things, so I can't tell if they are part of one of his Maya narratives or not. I recognize at least some of the quoted phrases as being used in those and the source is dealing with Sikhism and as such it's author may not be that familiar with Kabir himself, and his usage of metaphoric imagery, beyond his inclusion in the Guru Granth Sahib. --Painocus (talk) 04:02, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of writing him a Brahmin Birth (Fabricated story made by these pundits) we should follow Kabir own version of his birth and family background is present in Bijak and Guru Granth Sahib written by Kabir Himself or his contemporary.

1. In his hymns, Kabir refers to himself as born a Julaha many times in his hymns.
   ਓਛੀ ਮਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਜੁਲਾਹਾ ॥ ओछी मति मेरी जाति जुलाहा ॥
   Ocẖẖī maṯ merī jāṯ julāhā. My intellect is lowly - I am a weaver by birth (Page 328 Adi Granth. Page 524, Line 16)
2. Bhagat Ravidas, a contemporary of Kabir, mentioned that Kabir was born to a family of Muslims.
   ਜਾ ਕੈ ਈਦਿ ਬਕਰੀਦਿ ਕੁਲ ਗਊ ਰੇ ਬਧੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਮਾਨੀਅਹਿ ਸੇਖ ਸਹੀਦ ਪੀਰਾ ॥
   जा कै ईदि बकरीदि कुल गऊ रे बधु करहि मानीअहि सेख सहीद पीरा ॥
   Jā kai īḏ bakrīḏ kul ga▫ū re baḏẖ karahi mānī▫ah sekẖ sahīḏ pīrā.
   And he whose family used to kill cows at the festivals of Eid and Bakareed, who worshipped Shayks, martyrs and spiritual teachers,
   ਜਾ ਕੈ ਬਾਪ ਵੈਸੀ ਕਰੀ ਪੂਤ ਐਸੀ ਸਰੀ ਤਿਹੂ ਰੇ ਲੋਕ ਪਰਸਿਧ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੨॥
   जा कै बाप वैसी करी पूत ऐसी सरी तिहू रे लोक परसिध कबीरा ॥२॥
   Jā kai bāp vaisī karī pūṯ aisī sarī ṯihū re lok parsiḏẖ kabīrā. ||2||
   whose father used to do such things - his son Kabeer became so successful that he is now famous throughout the three worlds. ||2|| Adi Granth, Bhagat Ravidas, Page 1293, Line 11,

There are multiple versions of Kabir's teachings and multiple legends regarding his birth. The problem with your edit is not the content per se, but the fact that you are using primary sources such as the Guru Granth Sahib to do original research. Please read both of the policies linked. I emphasise on the following part "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation". For instance, the line just after the content you've written, "According to American Indologist Wendy Doniger, Kabir was born into a Muslim family and "all these stories attempt to drag Kabir back over the line from Muslim to Hindu".", is quite alright. And don't forget to sign your comments with "~~~~". Regards. Amitrochates (talk) 07:01, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Amitrochates , this fails WP:Verifiable. Thanks DeludedFan (talk) 09:44, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with what? If a person in his autobiography, and even his contemporary, writes that Kabir Was Born Muslim and grown up in Muslim family, then how can you support other legends? For an instance: I am saying that i born in India. Suddenly, an American of today age started saying that I born in America, but was thrown into Pacific ocean and with Tsunami tide, i reached India. Then whose legend will you believe? Should wiki highlight fact or should wiki highlight self made story? Now if you put Original Research philosophy then i must say: Hymns of Ravidas in Adi Granth are contemporary and is secondary source for same information. Primary source is Kabir bani. Ravidas Bani is also incorporated in new Granth called Amritbani which is used by Ravidasi in daily liturgy. So which is original? Or do you want some third party scholar who dis research on Kabir as well as on Ravidas should write some line and put source to that? Please make me understand situatuon, What actually you want like a link to Magazine or Newspaper or book for what am i saying?(Karantsingh (talk) 05:48, 3 March 2015 (UTC))[reply]

Karantsingh You need to familiarise yourself with WP:OR. If you can find a reference from a WP:Verifiable source that backs up what you are saying, we can include it. Thanks DeludedFan (talk) 15:02, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:PRIMARY is pretty clear regarding what primary sources are. Please note that, in the policy, examples of Primary sources include "original philosophical works; religious scripture; ancient works, even if they cite earlier lost writings". Basically, other hymns of Adi Granth would be primary sources too. Besides, editors do not get to decide what the truth is. We just faithfully report what secondary sources have to say on the subject and if secondary sources disagree we report their disagreement too. You might find the essay WP:TRUTH helpful in this regard. Amitrochates (talk) 23:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have read Verifiability: It says information should be from reliable source. As Guru Granth Sahib is reliable itself, but lets say it is considered as Original Research then If Guru Granth Sahib directly not allowed then can we enter information from Teeka(Exegesis of Guru Granth Sahib) done by various renowed scholars like Professor Sahib Singh, Dharam Singh Nihang Singh, Giani Harbans Singh etc. as reference to the same? As it will be not original research but commentary on original reseaarch by Scholar. You can not say that this commentary is my belief or Experiance but it will be published material. Please guide!!! (Karantsingh (talk) 05:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC))[reply]

You can cite religious texts, but the problem with using them as a reference is that they are open to interpretation. For example you are saying Kabir wrote in the Guru Granth Sahib? The vast majority of intellectuals/historians have confirmed that although some verses of Kabir were included in it, many were not. There is also no evidence he lived during the time period of Nanak, or when the Guru Granth Sahib was put together by Guru Arjan. Also many verses of Kabir diametrically oppose the teachings of Nanak. Nanak states that "from woman kings are born" whereas Kabir describes woman as "decietful" and a "black cobra" (kali nagini). So many scholars argue his teachings are not part of the Sikh path, but only some collerate with Sikh teachings. Therefore in order to confirm such facts , you must use correct studies with ISBN numbers. A good example is this section where refernces are used to back up religious texts by Kabir. Thanks DeludedFan (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have analysed this reference (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zo5qt_acfakC&pg=PP2&dq=Kabir+and+his+followers,+University+of+London,&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAGoVChMInLvzxa-jxwIVYjnbCh2zsQH0#v=onepage&q=Kabir%20and%20his%20followers%2C%20University%20of%20London%2C&f=false ) ,and it is either WP:OR or fails WP:Reliable. My own feeling is that it is a very old reference and the author is mistake. If their are no objections I will remove it in the next few weeks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeludedFan (talk • contribs) 10:57, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@DeludedFan: I will replace it with summary from 1991 RS by Nirmal Dass, which says the same thing. On Kabir vs Nanak, since this article is on Kabir, I do not understand your suggestion of emphasizing Nanak's view. It feels offtopic, but I have no particular preference whether we include it or not. If we want to compare Kabir with Nanak, are you okay if we include the views in reliable sources by scholars who disagree with Nikki? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]