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I'm working on the many statments made in the issues section that lack citations. My first question is does this link: [1] seem appropriate as a citation to show "anger" in this sentence: "Lieberman has been praised by many for his stance on regulating the sales of violent video games, while others have been angered by this position."

My other request is that whomever added: "In March 2006, according to the The New Haven Register,[citation needed] when asked about the approach of the Catholic hospitals on contraceptives for rape victims, Lieberman said he believes hospitals that refuse to give contraceptives to rape victims for "principled reasons" shouldn’t be forced to do so. "In Connecticut, it shouldn’t take more than a short ride to get to another hospital," he said.[citation needed]" please provide a citation. I remember reading this in the Hartford Courant as well, if nobody steps up I'll look into it. Finally, the statements on the death penalty need to be cited as soon as possible, as I personally think they're a little shaky. As soon as this gets done, I'd like to nominate this article as a Good Article. Once this campaign is over, I believe this can be a Featured Article.--Thud495 13:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course a primary source would be superior than a contempory source in making that particular assertion. Blah, while you did provide a source in support of that statement, you also made your own argument within the article itself. LionO was thus at least partially correct to revert your changes. In any case, I prefer the somewhat more concise and objective Yale Daily News in providing evidence for the assertion of signficant opposition to Lieberman's move. https://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=12744 Acceptable?

I suggest the following change:

In August 2000, the presumptive-Democratic nominee for president, Al Gore, tapped Lieberman to be his vice-presidential running mate. His selection marked the first Jewish candidate on a major party ticket. The announcement of Lieberman's selection showed an increase in support for Gore's campaign. [10] Like Democratic VP candidates Lyndon Johnsonin 1960, and Lloyd Bentsen in 1988, Lieberman's Senate term was also due to expire in this election cycle and he decided to stage a run to maintain that seat as well. Although some questionsed the strategy in having Lieberman run for both offices, the Gore/Lieberman campaign argued that it gave CT Residents more electoral power in upcoming years. https://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=12744

Interestingly, Lieberman later criticized Al Gore for adopting a populist theme during their 2000 campaign, and stated he had objected to Gore's "people vs. the powerful" message, believing it was not the best strategy for Democrats to use to win the election.[11]

LionO 21:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well at least you're agreeing to add something, but I think that if you mention Johnson 1960, and Bentsen 1988, it should be mentioned that Johnson was replaced by Democrat #64, and Bentsen was one of 55 Democratic Senators after that election, while Lieberman's race would have made the difference by itself. Blah42 21:59, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No. The article links to pages on Johnson and on Bentsen. That information, if it is important enough, can be found there. Presenting this information here would be irrelevent. The article that Thud found discusses this issue. LionO 22:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that does reduce the relevance of mentioning Johnson and Bentsen, particularly the former. Also nowhere does it say that if Lieberman had become Vice President (obviously not much would have had to change in FL there), that the CT race would have made the difference in control of the Senate. Blah42 22:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The mentioning of Johnson and Bentsen is relevent because without it, the reader would think that the mentioning of Lieberman running for both races was the first time it happened in history. In fact, it's the third. The fact that the CT race would have made a difference is after-the-fact information and, frankly, speculative. One could argue that it would not have made a difference: Gore/Lieberman wins. Rowland appoints Republican. 51-49. Jeffords switches sides - 50-50, Lieberman as tie-breaker. We cannot include information about things that did not happen.

I suggest the following. You're going to need a source if you claim Gore said that it would help CT Residents have more electoral power. We came very very close to this race making a difference.

In August 2000, the presumptive-Democratic nominee for president, Al Gore, tapped Lieberman to be his vice-presidential running mate. His selection marked the first Jewish candidate on a major party ticket. The announcement of Lieberman's selection showed an increase in support for Gore's campaign. [10] Like Democratic VP candidates Lyndon Johnson in 1960, and Lloyd Bentsen in 1988, Lieberman's Senate term was also due to expire in this election cycle and he decided to stage a run to maintain that seat as well. Unlike those races, this Connecticut Senate race would have determined control of the Senate if Lieberman had been elected Vice President. Some questionsed the strategy in having Lieberman run for both offices. Lieberman's campaign argued that it gave CT Residents more electoral power in upcoming years. https://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=12744 Blah42 22:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the relevence of mentioning Johnson is lessened by adding the changes, it is still important in order to establish that Lieberman's decision was not without precedent. That the precedent was not exactly the same in terms of the makeup of the Senate is largely incidental and so covering it in the Wiki article may be unnecessary. However, I would have no objection to simply saying that had Lieberman won both races his Senate seat would have been chosen by a Republican governor. (Sorry, I can hardly keep up :p - I have no substantial problem with the last suggestion by Blah)--Thud495 22:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you should try to find a verifiable citation from someone stating that they questioned the strategy specifically because it threw control of the Senate into question. If you can't find such a citation I would say don't include it. In general it would be best to find a citation for "Some questioned the strategy" so that you can mention why they questioned it. --Ideogram 00:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From this article mentioned above: https://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=12744

Dated September 27th, 2000:

What will he say to his Democratic Senate colleagues if his seat -- now filled by a Republican Rowland appointee -- makes the difference between a 51-49 Republican majority and a 50-50 tie Lieberman could have broken as vice president?

Blah42 02:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to me to be a valid citation. We should try to work this statement into the article somehow. Let me suggest the following:

"In August 2000, the presumptive-Democratic nominee for president, Al Gore, tapped Lieberman to be his vice-presidential running mate. His selection marked the first Jewish candidate on a major party ticket. The announcement of Lieberman's selection showed an increase in support for Gore's campaign. [10] Like Democratic VP candidates Lyndon Johnson in 1960, and Lloyd Bentsen in 1988, Lieberman's Senate term was also due to expire in this election cycle and he decided to stage a run to maintain that seat as well. Some questioned the strategy of having Lieberman run for both offices, saying that it "threatens his party's chances of winning a Senate majority." Lieberman's campaign argued that it gave CT residents more electoral power in upcoming years. https://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=12744"

What do you all think? --Ideogram 03:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with the above LionO 05:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please try not to edit the page during the discussion. Revert wars are not productive. If someone else edits, do not respond in kind.

Let's focus on proposed edits and try to reach consensus about them. At present the main point being discussed is whether to include the statement:

"Unlike those races, this Connecticut Senate race would have determined control of the Senate if Lieberman had been elected Vice President."

I agree that this statement needs verification. As long as a verifiable source said it, we can include it. Otherwise I would say it should not be included. --Ideogram 00:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Easily verified. I already cited this all before, but it got deleted anyways. There were 64 Democrats after the 1960 election. United_States_Senate_election,_1960 Johnson was replaced by a Democrat. William_Blakley Bentsen was one of 55 Democratic Senators after the 1988 election United_States_Senate_election,_1988 I think we all know that Joseph Lieberman almost became Vice President in 2000. He was one of 50 Senators elected in 2000 United_States_Senate_election,_2000 As the link above shows, Republican Governor Rowland would have gotten to name his replacement. Gore won Connecticut by 17 points, and so likely would have coat-tailed another Democrat in.

Again, there is nothing new here, I added this all before, and it all got removed.

Blah42 02:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is verifiable. As I have said before, you are trying to prove a hypothetical. CT Congressional Democrats were all set to change the laws and allow for a special election if Lieberman became VP (just at MA Cong. Dems were going to do the same in Mass if Kerry became president -- thought Romney threatened a veto there, too). Rowland threatened to veto it, but CT Dems may have had enough votes to override it. Who's to say that this wouldn't have happened? A moot issue. I am fine with the section in the block above that we all suggested. Nothing needs to be added to it. LionO 04:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Unlike those races, this Connecticut Senate race would have determined control of the Senate if Lieberman had been elected Vice President." is a fact. You may not like this fact, and feel the need to remove it no matter what from the article, but it is a fact, and you are being 100% unreasonable. Blah42 04:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, wait, wait. Did you consider my proposed phrasing above? --Ideogram 04:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, ok, but remember, this scenario was at most 269 Florida votes away from actually happening. Blah42 05:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, as long as everyone agrees, we can put my proposed edit into the article and move on to the next controversial edit. --Ideogram 05:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another cite for the Conn Senate rate in 2000. http://www.newyorker.com/printables/talk/060724ta_talk_hertzberg Stephenzhu 22:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

for a democrat--John Herbert Walker Bush Smith 00:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article claims Lieberman is "the first Jew to win the popular vote in a national election." But there is no such thing as a popular national vote in the U.S., and never has been. I don't mean to say this facetiously: it's an important, and very true, fact. Because of the electoral college system, a vote in Connecticut is not weighed the same as a vote in Texas, nor are the motives (let alone methods) for voting equivalent. Saying Lieberman won the national popular vote is like saying that the Red Sox in 2004 were the champions of the entire pro sports world in the U.S. There is no such thing. It's both false and misleading. (— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pudgenet (talk • contribs) )

I'm sorry, but that's bull. There is most definitely such a thing as "winning the popular vote." It's a phrase that numerous papers have used, and no one has any trouble understanding what it means: that the Gore-Lieberman ticket got a plurality among all the votes nationwide, which means that in most voting systems they would have been the winner, and even in most U.S. presidential elections they would be the winner. It may be true that in our particular system, the popular vote is not ultimately what determines the president, even though it usually matches the winner. But that hardly renders the concept meaningless. I think you're playing semantic word games because you don't want to admit the uncomfortable truth that the U.S.'s electoral college system is highly irregular. marbeh raglaim 13:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are, clearly, incorrect. Newspapers use it out of ignorance or laziness. What I said is verifiably true. There is no such thing as a meaningful "plurality among all the votes nationwide." You are simply wrong when you say 'in most voting systems they would have been the winner,' because when you change voting systems you change the behavior of the voters. You cannot know with any degree of certainty that there would not have been a 0.5% change in behavior of the voters had we actually had a popular vote. This is simply unknowable, and it is unreasonable to assert it as fact, as you have done here. I am not playing word games, I am stating what is, again, verifiable fact.

My own personal views have nothing to do with this; I couldn't care less about the irregularity of the U.S. system, but here we are talking about verifiable facts, and it is a verifiable fact that we cannot know, as you incorrectly stated, that Gore would have been the winner in a popular vote. The only way to know that would have been to have an actual popular vote. Pudge 15:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are so wrong. But you know what? I don't really care. I am not going to get into a debate over something that really isn't crucial to the article. Maybe if there are other articles dealing more directly with this question, I'll go there. But for now, I'll concede the changes you made here. Until we meet again, bro. marbeh raglaim 07:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no. Everything I said is verifiably true. It is simply unreasonable to say that Gore would have won in 2000 if we'd had a popular vote, as this is impossible to know with any degree of certainty. Do you really think voting habits are not related to voting method: that all people vote exactly the same in an electoral system as opposed to direction election? This is obviously false (and I am an example, voting for Harry Browne in 1996, because I lived in MA and my vote wouldn't change anything). Some people simply don't vote when they live in a state like MA or TX; this phenomenon is well-known and understood. You simply cannot know that there would not be a swing of more than 0.5%, which was the difference between the two candidates.

And I didn't even get into the obvious fact that a popular vote election significantly changes how campaigns are run -- where the campaigning is done, what is said, even what positions are held -- which could cause a swing of several percentage points. So no, I am not wrong; you are, bro. Pudge 14:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You really can't let it go, can you? I told you, I'm letting you keep the article the way it is. Therefore, I see no point in debating the issue further here, and I'm not going to go along with your attempt to drag me down into the debate again. I'll just end by giving you a word of advice: maybe you'd find yourself in fewer arguments if you actually bothered to pay attention to what people are saying instead of attacking your own preferred watered-down version of the opposing points. See ya, buddy. marbeh raglaim 17:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is this dispute still active? --Ideogram 03:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to go ahead and close this case. If you need to reopen it, leave a note on my talk page. --Ideogram 16:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to have an axe to grind about "Death Penalty for Minors." Three times, Alchemistoxford has included material about the death penalty for minors that is opinionated "the reprehesible crime of...", "a policy that is now deemed to be reprehensible, barbaric and totally beyond the pale of a civilized society" ... yadda yadda. Additionally, he seems to overemphasize Lieberman's vote on the Death Penalty for Minors in serious cases by mentioning it in the opening section and also giving it its own subsection - apart from Capital Punishment - in the "Positions" section. I - and other editors - have removed his POV word choices and included one sentence about it under capital punishment. Since it has never been a signature issue for Lieberman, nor has it been an issue brought up by Lieberman or his opponents, nor was he in the minority in voting for it, it needs no more than a single sentence mention. Alchemistoxford - if different editors are ditching your stuff, the response is NOT to keep posting it, but to discuss it here. You need to achieve consensus to post again. LionO 21:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Make that 4 times. This "Death Penalty for Minors" is total bull. He also adds also sorts of Jewish references for Lieberman, and tries to leave impression that Lieberman has a dual loyalty. Yeah, we get it , Alchemistoxford, you're an anti-semite and a Lamont supporter. (see also his contribution to the Charles Schumer article, also regarding Lieberman) Doesn't Wikipedia have some mechanism for dealing with serial vandelizers? --24.44.44.45 06:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added some contents for the personal life of Lieberman, focusing on his two marriages and finance. I also added his political position on stock options, which has become a hot topic nowadays. --stephenzhu 07:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The lead of an article about Lieberman is the place to summarize the article about Lieberman, not to go into detail about another person. This text needs to be placed somewhere else in the article.

Coincidentally, Jackson in 1970 faced a primary challenge from liberal Democrats unhappy with a three-term senator's support for a controversial war, the same scenario that confronts Lieberman in 2006. Unlike "Scoop" Jackson, however, Lieberman has also been criticized for what is seen as conservatism on some domestic issues. [2]

Sandy 17:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added/modified the following entries.

Abortions and Contraceptions

Lobbying

Stock Options

Israel

--Stephenzhu 16:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Undone the deletion of Israel. Since Lieberman is one of the staunchest supporter of Israel in Congress, I think highlighting his position on Israel is warranted.

--Stephenzhu 16:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I took a piece of it out again, because it wasn't sourced. Please review WP:BLP. Sandy 00:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Got the reference. --Stephenzhu 18:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Please remember WP:FN when adding references (ref after punctuation, with no spaces). Sandy 18:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the matter of division on Domestic and Foreign Policy. It seems to me NAFTA is about free trade, which largely belongs to domestic/general business policy. Also, Homeland Security also should belong to domestic policy. --Stephenzhu 19:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the whole Table of Contents is out of control, and should be shortened. Sandy 22:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

don't know if you guys notice, Lieberman obviously has the longest wiki page of all US senators, past and present.

--Stephenzhu 16:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article is well within overall and prose size recommendations, and still has room to grow. Sandy 16:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

rephrase, this page is shorter than Kerry's wiki page. --Stephenzhu 17:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read and understand WP:BLP. Unsourced material as described there can be removed, not subject to 3RR. Sandy 16:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:QUOTE. The entire section of quotes needs to be removed and placed where it belongs. Sandy 16:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. --16:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephenzhu (talk • contribs) 16:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone moved quotes to WikiQuote, but there is a note there that they need cleanup (they probably need referencing as well). Sandy 14:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I left a talk message for you, but you don't seem to have seen it. Please provide edit summaries to assist other editors in understanding your contributions. Thank you, Sandy 17:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. --17:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

A note about the correct style for references and footnotes, after the punctuation, with no space. Sandy 14:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lieberman's foreign policy is definitely not internalionalist (in the conventional sense of that word), so I took the liberty of changing the phrase to refer to Lieberman's "hawkish foreign policy." After all, he was, and continued to be, a firm supporter of the war in Iraq. If there are any doubts, please refer to internationalism (politics).

--WorldWide Update 09:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We have to really be careful about the vandalism on this page. While many people have been good to revert to edits before vandalism occurred, the vandalism is so rampant that reverting to a previous edit doesn't always help. After one editor reverted to a previous edit due to Alchemistoxford's vandalism, the previous edit had vandalism too -- it said Lieberman sufferred from erectile disfunction. Just a head's up to be careful: Lieberman is running for reelection, and it seems that some who are not supporting him find that the best way to show their politics is by vandalizing his wikipedia site. LionO 16:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. It's hard to tell how much of what is here is actually vandalism and slander. I don't know Lieberman's politics and positions well enough to judge, but someone needs to go through everything here very carefully, since many of the recent additions don't say what the editor claims the references say. We may also need to get an admin's attention to the ongoing vandalism here, particularly in light of the importance of WP:BLP. Sandy 16:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Liono, please give reasons why you remove some of the sentences in the Israel and Geneva Convention Sections. All the sentences I put in are from creditable sources, such as the political contributions and toture memo connection disblief. --Stephenzhu 03:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Lieberman has been critical of Bush's Medicare plan, arguing that in its current state, it does not provide sufficiently for our nation's elderly." "Lieberman voted no on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage." "Lieberman is a champion of stock options."

This article is full of statements more than favorable to Joe Lieberman. Didn't Lieberman vote for Bush's medicare plan? Doesn't he oppose gay marriage? The Social Security Privatization section is almost entirely quoted from his website. This leads me to believe that perhaps his supporters/staffers are padding this article misleading positive information. I'm adding an NPOV tag. Smedley Hirkum 06:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]