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Added the URL for the Musical version of the Mandukya Upanishad composed by Pandit Jasraj

--203.118.135.21 22:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)Ganesh[reply]

The exposition is largely from the Karika called "Sri Ramakrishana Deepa" published by the Ramakrishna Mutt. This Upanishad has only twelve verse, so it is possible to include a line-by-line translation. Can someone, preferably someone well versed in Sanskrit, do it? - Gopalan evr (talk) 14:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know the source for the quote in the article: "who is neither inwardly nor outwardly aware, nor both inward and outward, nor with consciousness infolded on itself.... who is unseen and ineffable, ungraspable, featureless, unthinkable and unnameable."? This quote is not from the next citation: Hajime Nakamura, Trevor Leggett, A history of early Vedānta philosophy, Part 2. Reprint by Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 2004 page 285. This citation is, upon checking the book, really only directly for the last sentence, "It is referred to as atyanta-shunyata (absolute emptiness)." Arapacana 14:24, 7 December 2011

I noticed there was a very strong Buddhist bias in this article. The usage of declarative statements like, "It IS influenced by Mahayana Buddhism' and 'It clearly is inspired by Buddhism' significantly dilute the impartiality of this article and gives it a very Buddhist spin. I am leaving this note for the consideration of potential editors.

92.3.100.150 (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Buddhist bias was prevalent because Mandukya Upanishad was confused with Mandukya Karika by an editor.
Mandukya Karika was written much later than the upanishad, in 8th century CE when concepts of Mulamadhyamakarika were well known.CorrectKnowledge (talk) 21:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The Mandukay Upanishad dates to around 500 BC. So it isn't possible that it is influenced by Mahayana (much later than Hinayana). In fact, Samkhya, Vedanta, and Hinayana were all currents of thought prevalent in this area around 500 BCE. So it is wrong to say that it was influenced (by of all things) Mahayana, which was a much later development. You can read about its chronology here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads#Chronology It is a grevious error to confuse it with the Karika's which were written centuries later. I shall delete this in 15 days unless someone objects.

Tcat64 (talk) 15:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Tcat64: The information in the article is 100% correct. The reference does say the Mandukya Upanishad itself was influenced by Buddhism. There is no confusion with the Karika's, which were also influenced by Buddhism.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 19:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: The reference has some serious mistakes and inconsistencies. It claims that Mandukya Upanishad is a "short prose work of eleven paragraphs" (Pg 283), when in fact there are twelve verses in this Upanishad. Furthermore, the Wikipedia article now claims that many "terms and expressions" like Shunyata are found in this Upanishad, which, anybody who has actually read the Mandukya Upanishad can tell you, is not true.Nilagriva (talk) 11:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: I agree with Nilagriva. The MU considerably predates Mahanaya teachings. And yes, the MU speaks of Turiya, not Shunyata.

Tcat64 (talk)

I'm afraid that your personal readings are not relevant here; scholarly sources are. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 20:06, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshua Jonathan: Which part needs to be referenced--I had put a link in to the dating of the Upanishads (from the wikipedia itself) that shows it dates to pre 500BCE, well before Mahayana. What more reference are you looking for--this is not my personal opinion. This shouldn't devolve to a religious "competition," no one is demeaning Mahayana by pointing out the true origins and meaning of the MU Tcat64 (talk) 14:58, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That Upanishads article needs to be corrected. The scholarly reference Nakamura says Mandukya Upanishad dates to "about the first or second centuries A.D." on page 286.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:07, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: Check out the Upanishads article--it refers to three scholarly works, all of whom agree on the dates being before 500 BCE. These three scholars are widely known to be authorities on the vedanta and include Deussen, Ranade, and Radhakrishnan. Very kindly note that a commentary on an upanishad is not the same as the actual upanishad, and may well be influenced by other schools of thought. I am not aware of the reference you quote as being credible. As Nilagriva notes above, it makes a fundamental mistake by saying the MU has 11 verses. If it makes so basic a mistake, how credible can it be? Tcat64 (talk) 17:07, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The reference says the actual Upanishad itself dates to "about the first or second centuries A.D." The assertions of other Wikipedia editors like Nilagriva are meaningless. By the way, are you Nilagriva?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 20:55, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: Discussion continued below with Jonathan. No, I am not Nilagriva. Tcat64 (talk) 12:48, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"500 BCE" has to be sourced. Wikipedia is not accepted as a source at Wikipedia. The Upanishads-article uses "Shubhra Sharma (1985), life in the Upanishads, Abhinav Publications, p.17-19" as a source. He refers to Deussen, Radhakrishnan and Regarde. Deussen (late 19th century) is outdated, as are Radhakrishnan and Regarde. Nakamura does indeed state "eleven verses"; I don't know why, but he's a WP:RS, while you're WP:OR is not. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, and here's Olivelle: "Finally, we have the two late prose Upanisads, the Prasna and the Mandukya, which cannot be much older than the beginning of the common era." (Olivelle (1998), "The Early Upanishads", p.13

Cheers, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:20, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is quite frustrating...why is one reference + another flawed one, more credible then the other three mentioned in the Vedanta article, i.e., Deussen, Ranade, and Radhakrishan. I think this is a big mistake, a blunder, and discredits this page. Sankhya, Vedanta, and Theravada were well aware of 'turiya' or 'shunyata' around 500 BCE. Thus in Theravada, there is the concept of Shunyata, (and Theravada itself predates the Mahayana anyway). See for example Bikku Bhodih's translations of the earliest Pali Scripts (referenced below). Further, if you read the actual Mandukya Upanishad, it uses a different concept than shunyata. It uses the concept of turiya. It is like a half full glass of water. The pessimistic Theravadans saw the glass as half empty (the void/shunyata, the absence of any phenomenal content) while the Vedantists saw it as the glass half full (Pure Consciousness, the Atman). This is very frustrating--that two persons who between them have seem to have a bias towards Mahayana can control a page--where is the alternate view expressed?. Sorry for the emotions. And mine is not OR (original research?). It can be found in many of the history books, the one below being the handiest reference I have, showing that the Theravada predates the Mahayana in discussing Shunyata (which anyway is different than Turiya, the subject of this Upanishad). Also note the reference in the actual page to the book by Radha Krishnan. He was the President of India, chosen for his knowledge of the Upanishads. His book (ref: S. Radhakrishnan. The Principal Upanishads. George Allen and Unwin. 1969) is world famous, considered a classic in the Vedanta. In this he dates the upanishad (like the others) to 500 BCE or earlier.

Bodhi, B. (2005) In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (Teachings of the Buddha)Wisdom Publications; First Edition editon, 512pp.

Also, kindly do check out the Encyclopedia Brittanica entry on this: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/618602/Upanishad

Tcat64 (talk) 12:40, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Frustrating indeed... Deussen is from the late 19th century; Radhakrishnan is also outdated; and Regarde isn't even being used as a scholarly source in contemporary research. Olivelle, on the other hand, is a contemporary authority, who has summarized the scholalrly concensus on the dating of the Upanishads.

Regarding the EB-entry (written by Olivelle...), he does indeed state there:

"Thirteen known Upanishads were composed from the middle of the 5th century through the 2nd century bce."

Curious. Nevertheless, 500 BCE for the Mundakya is not supported by WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:45, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why the Encylopedia is not WP:RS (not sure what that means). Also, note that the date of the EB article is 2/25/2014, i.e., very current. Olliville's book may represent her personal opinion (which she may have since revised), whereas the EB entry is vetted by peers before it is published and so should be more credible then a "single author" book. Also I note you have failed to address the whole question of Theravada having the concept of shunyata as early as around 500 BCE. The book by Bodhi has a foreward by the Dalai Lamma himself and so should be considered credible. Can the Budhist entry be removed till we sort this out? yours kindly Tcat64 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:28, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

EB is also WP:RS, but be sure that Olivelle's book is thoroughly scrutinized. It does not simply represent a "personal opinion." Regarding Theravada and sunyata: sunyata is a typical Mahayana concept. Oldest Buddhism (that's not the same as Theravada; there was no "Theravada" at 500 BCE) speaks about "anatta". When you state "Sankhya, Vedanta, and Theravada were well aware of 'turiya' or 'shunyata' around 500 BCE" it reads like your personal understanding; I think I need a reference to a source to understand what you mean. Did you read the policies on WP:RS and WP:OR? Try; they're informative. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

you are right, I was wrong to call it theravada. It is the "oldest" buddhism that Bikku Bodhi is discussing in his book. So here we have it in 500 BCE being discussed. As best I know, Theravada is the closest to the oldest buddhism. Anyway, again, the concept of shunyata and turiya are differnt. To claim that Mahayana influenced the upanishad is wrong. Bikku Bodhis writings are about the buddhism that predated Mahayana. I am not sure what exactly will convince you...you seem to have "favorites" as to which references count, but I suspect I am wrong to say that...its just that there are references but I am no Vedanta scholar so I leave it as is, but from what I know you are incorrect to state that Mahayana influneced the MU. I would NOT take out the POV comment till this issue is resolved. Let me go to my library and see if I can find alternate sources that meet your requirements. Tcat64 (talk) 17:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

also check out this book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Vedanta-Treasures-Religions/dp/0941532526/ref=tmm_pap_title_0) It too says (as do most books other than the one doubtful reference you cite and the dual rference by Olivelle, that the Upanishads ALL date from 500 BCE to 1400 BCE. Not sure what more I can do to convince you. peace. Tcat64 (talk) 20:09, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: This issue remains very much unresolved and seems to reflect your POV. Please DO NOT REMOVE the POV tag. Tcat64 (talk)

How do we resolve your POV tag @Tcat64:?VictoriaGrayson^Talk 03:01, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tcat64 will have to find WP:RS which

• give a reliable, alternate dating (in which case Olivelle will still stay, as being a reliable source)
• responds to Nakamura, and argues that the MU is not influenced by Mahayana-Buddhism (in which case Nakamura will still stay in the article, as being a relevant source)

Otherwise, it's Tcat64's personal understanding. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:34, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The reason he did not revise these dates, is because they are the correct dates...so I am not understanding your point at all. If I write a true fact in 1972 why would I need to "revise it" in 2015, if it still is correct? Again, every book out there, with the exception of the flaky reference by Nakamura (who hasn't seem to have even read the original Upanishad), and the dual reference by Oliville which s/he appears to have corrected in 2014, all say the MU dates from before 500 BCE. Please note, the Mandukay Upanishad itself is only 12 verses long, each verse only two lines, i.e., a total of 24 lines, in terse Sanskrit. You can find a link to it here (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/mand/mand_invoc.html)--do read it. Now in case you say this is a one off case, do google it, there are several other links that will bring you to the original Mandukya Upanishad. You will see that it contains NO Buddhist terms. If you see a Buddhist term, do identify it and let me know. I am not understanding why you rely on a flawed reference, plus a dated book by Oliville (note that he corrected him/her self in the EB and reverted to the standard, accepted dating viz. 500-1400 BCE). The answers to your two questions are as follows:

• give a reliable, alternate dating (in which case Olivelle will still stay, as being a reliable source)

EVERY book ....see above (tired of repeating myself).

• responds to Nakamura, and argues that the MU is not influenced by Mahayana-Buddhism (in which case Nakamura will still stay in the article, as being a relevant source)

Instead of a pedantic reliance on commentaries (especially a flawed one like Nakamura's), please do read the actual Mandukya Upanishad. Again, Nakamura is a fatally flawed reference. He does not seem to have even read the original Mandukya Upanishad and and even (absurdly) seems to confuse a COMMENTARY on the Mandukya Upanishad (Guadapada's Karika) with the actual Mandukya Upanishad. Again, if there are Buddhist terms in the MU, tell me which they are--again, here is the link to the MU itself: http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/mand/mand_invoc.html. I think you both are confusing Vedanta comentaries with the Mandukya Upanishad. They are two separate things, seprated by about a thousand years. Thus while Vedanta and its base Karika's may indeed have been influenced by Buddhism, the actual core Upanishads were not, as they are standardly understood to largely predate Buddhism. So I sense, an honest misunderstanding here.

Tcat64 (talk) 14:08, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Swami-krishnananda.org is not reliable. Also please stop citing your own personal opinions. You were warned numerous times about this.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 18:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: The personal opinions appear to be yours...in this case that there are buddhist terms in the MU. I asked you to google other sources of the MU. They are all the same. I can give you numerous versions. There are no, i repeat, no Buddhist terms in the MU. It is only one flaky reference, the flawed reference by Nakamura, that says so, and this reference makes the amazing blunder of saying the MU has 11 verses. I can keep giving you more references to the MU but it appears you seem to think they are "personal opinions." So I ask you, show me an MU that has Buddhist terms in it. Stop accusing people of things like "personal opinions," especially if you are the main person with the "thing" in question. I have given you four references and seem to meet the test of WP:RS much more so than you. Tcat64 (talk) 13:24, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tcat64, you mean p.3-4? "While we would be inclined to look upon the Revelation as a more or less continuous series of texts, spanning close to a millennium from ca. 1400 BCE to 500 BCE" The first edition is from 1972, and it looks like that this piece of info has not been updated. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the reason he did not revise these dates, is because they are the correct dates...so I am not understanding your point at all. If I write a true fact in 1972 why would I need to "revise it" in 2015, if it still is correct? Again, every book out there, with the exception of the flaky reference by Nakamura (who hasn't seem to have even read the original Upanishad), and the dual reference by Oliville which s/he appears to have corrected in 2014, all say the MU dates from before 500 BCE. Please note, the Mandukay Upanishad itself is only 12 verses long, each verse only two lines, i.e., a total of 24 lines, in terse Sanskrit. You can find a link to it here (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/mand/mand_invoc.html)--do read it. Now in case you say this is a one off case, do google it, there are several other links that will bring you to the original Mandukya Upanishad. You will see that it contains NO Buddhist terms. If you see a Buddhist term, do identify it and let me know. I am not understanding why you rely on a flawed reference, plus a dated book by Oliville (note that he corrected him/her self in the EB and reverted to the standard, accepted dating viz. 500-1400 BCE). Also, checkout yet another book by a scholar on Indian texts that dates the Upanishads to the fifth century BCE--"Beyond Immortality: Complete texts, translations, word transliteration, philosophical commentary, mythological analysis and notes of Ganapati , Isa, Katha and Mandukya Upanishads." Paperback – May 20, 2012 by Pasquale J. Simonelli Ph.D. Again, I can keep finding numerous references to this effect--as compared with the single reference from the flawed Nakamura reference and the dated and since revised Oliville reference.Tcat64 (talk) 14:10, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Swami-krishnananda.org is not reliable. Also please stop citing your own personal opinions. VictoriaGrayson^Talk 18:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: Again, as I said above, the personal opinions appear to be yours...in this case that there are buddhist terms in the MU. I asked you to google other sources of the MU. They are all the same. I can give you numerous versions. There are no, i repeat, no Buddhist terms in the MU. It is only one flaky reference, the flawed reference by Nakamura, that says so, and this reference makes the amazing blunder of saying the MU has 11 verses. I can keep giving you more references to the MU but it appears you seem to think they are "personal opinions." So I ask you, show me an MU that has Buddhist terms in it. Stop accusing people of things like "personal opinions," especially if you are the main person with the "thing" in question. So I have given you five references, all saying that the MU was before 500 BCE. In turn you have given one FLAWED reference(Nakamura), and the outdated reference by Olliville. It seems I meet the standard of WP:RS much more so than you. And repeat, your claims of Buddhist terms? Opinion it seems, yours or "Nakamura's I don't know. WHERE IS/ARE THE BUDDHIST TERM(S)? I also observe that you do not address my Simonelli 2012 reference, that as do all the others but for the flaky Nakamura, says it dates to 500 BCE.Tcat64 (talk) 13:24, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• It is your personal opinion that there are no buddhist terms in the MU. Read WP:VNT.
• It is your personal opinion that the MU has 12 verses. Read WP:VNT.
• You haven't provided a single reliable source that supports either of these 2 opinions of yours. Read WP:VNT.
• Nakamura is a detailed scholarly academic reference.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 14:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: I am tired of pointing out that I have given you four references that meet the requirements of WP:RS. The one flaky Nakamura reference does not meet the requirement of WP:RS. Check out the following references for 12 key verses of MU. It is not my personal opinion. Again, which are the Buddhist terms--I have repeatedly asked you to tell me which are the terms, but you refuse to answer this question. Nakamura isn't the only scholar in the world, and his blunder indicates he has not read the MU. The entire MU is an exposition of the word OM. So to claim Budhist influences is simply absurd...AGAIN: SHOW ME THE PARTICULAR BUDDHIST TERMS!!! So here are three more references to the MU, each with 12 key stanzas--these are authentic sadhus from India--your Western/Mahayanist POV bias not withstanding.

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/mand/Mandukya_Upanishad.pdf

http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/Mundaka_and_Mandukya_Upanishads%20-%20Swami%20Sarvanand%20%5BSanskrit-English%5D.pdf --after Page 72, the

exposition of the Mandukya starts (you may not know this but Shri Ramakrishna Mutt is a center of Vedanta and Hindus scholars)

http://www.swamij.com/pdf/enlightenment-without-god-swami-rama.pdf (considered a seminal document by the late Swami Rama)

Again, please point me to this fabled version of Nakamura's with the 11 stanzas? Simply quoting wiki tags is not sufficient justification for your trying to strong arm this page!!! Tcat64 (talk) 22:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You continue to cite nonreliable sources. Moreover none of them say anything like "Mandukya Upanishad has 12 verses."VictoriaGrayson^Talk 23:45, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: You have failed to read the contents pointed to by the three links above--they contain the actual MU and list the 12 verses, counting them out verse by verse. Shri Ramakrishna Mutt in particular is a center of Vedanta. You are showing that in reality you are not a scholar of the MU by making the bizarre claim that the MU has only 11 verses (a very embarrassingly wrong statement that you should not make in any discussion on the MU) and/or that you have a Western bias to Indian scholars. If you open these three links, you will find in them the ORIGINAL SANSKRIT MU and yes, they are counted out--one through twelve, with an explanation following each verse. Again, after asking three or more times previously, you have failed to provide the link to the 11 verse MU. You have also again failed to provide the specific Buddhist terms. It seems that it is your Nakamura reference is unable to the test of WP:RS. I have provided three new reliable works by scholars (Olivelle, 2014; Eliot Deutsch, 2004; Pasquale J. Simonelli 2004;) in addition to the earlier sources Deussen, and Radhakrishnan. My sources meet the test of WP:RS much more so than yours. Unless you are able to provide the reference or link to the eleven verse MU and unless you are able to provide the Buddhist terms in question, I am afraid you do not meet the WP:RS criteria and the Buddhist part has to be removed from the wikipedia article. Tcat64 (talk) 12:40, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Counting to 12 verses is WP:OR. You need a reliable secondary source that says MU has 12 verses.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 13:59, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from that, Olivelle does not asy 500 BCE; Deussen is outdated; and Radhakrishnan is almost by definition unreliable. Vic, let's stop the discussion here; this guy is not going to get it. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jonathan: You don't seem to get it (or don't understand English). I have given you five sources for the 12 verses. Olivelle corrected himself in 2014 (get it?) It is not I that is counting the verses. Open the MU and the commentaries I gave and read for yourself that in the first few pages these authors say it has 12 verses. Also, WHERE IS THE VERSION THAT HAS 11 VERSES? WHERE ARE THE BUDDHIST TERMS? The Nakamura reference does not meet the test of WP:RS because there is NO version with 11 verses and there are NO Buddhist terms. This is the reason why you avoid these two questions and do not answer them. If the MU has 11 verses and Buddhist terms, it should be straightforward to locate this 11 verse version and the Buddhist terms. But no, despite my asking for it five times, you avoid the question, and do not provide this information. It seems you are pedants stuck on a secondary source reference, not willing to pursue this reference to its sources, not willing to read the original MU as well. I get the impression you do not know how to do research. Rather you seem dedicated Mahayanists trying to push an absurd agenda--one that scholars will laugh at. By so doing, you corrupt the wikipedia and render it flawed. Vic, what is so hard about providing me these answers. Don't sound like a stuck record. Move to this new area--loacate this fabled MU, locate the Buddhist terms. Tell us what they are, instead of repeating like a stuck record this "the references don't meet WP:RS when in fact, the Nakamura reference is but erroneous--else you would be able to point me to the source documents and terms. So again, in simple English that a five year old should understand: WHERE IS THE VERSION THAT HAS 11 VERSES? WHERE ARE THE BUDDHIST TERMS?Tcat64 (talk) 12:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc. is WP:OR. Translations are primary sources.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@VictoriaGrayson: Show me the 11 verse MU. Show me the Buddhist terms. Nakamura is wrongly making these claims, else you (or me or anyone else) will be able to find this fabled, mythical eleven verse MU or the Buddhist terms. The fact you are not able to is that Nakamura has pulled this misinformation out of thin air. As such, the Nakamura reference fails to meet [WP:RS]. And I am not "counting." If you bother to read the first pages of these references that I gave you, you will see that they WRITE there are 12 verses in the MU. Tcat64 (talk) 18:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Nakamura reference stands alone in that it makes singular claims that sets it apart from the mainstream references on the Mandukya Upanishad (MU). In particular, it makes unverifiable claims. This reference is being backed tooth and nail by VictoriaGrayson and Joshua Jonathan and repeated requests to these two individuals to substantiate Nakamura's claims have gone unanswered. This indicates that there is very strong POV (agenda to push Mahayana Buddhism) that may be motivating these two persons. The specific claims that Nakamura makes, which to date have not been validated, and which set it apart from the rest of the writings on the MU are as follows:

• Dates claimed by Nakamura are "about the first or second centuries A.D." Further, the reference in the article to Olivelle is disingenuous, as it is from 1998, a claim Olivelle since corrected in 2014 (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/618602/Upanishad) where he writes: "Thirteen known Upanishads were composed from the middle of the 5th century through the 2nd century BCE.". Note also, this Encylopedia Brittanica (EB) article is a "checked" EB article, i.e., it was thoroughly vetted by the EB.
• There is no 11 verse version of the MU on record--repeated requests to VictoriaGrayson and Joshua Jonnathan to backup Nakamura's claim with a reference or link to this 11 verse version of the MU have gone unanswered. Every available reference shows the 12 verse version, including references by noted authorities of Vedanta learning including the "vatican of Vedanta" i.e., the Shri. Ramakrishna Mutt.
• Nakamura claims there are "Buddhist terms" in the Mandukya. He is unique in making this claim. Repeated requests to substantiate this claim by specifying which are these "Buddhist terms" have gone unanswered.

For these reasons, the Nakamura reference does not meet the test of [WP:RS].

It appears that only two people (VictoriaGrayson and Joshua Jonnathan) seem to be of this view. You will see above that there are three people other than me who feel like me that the Nakamura claims are wrong. As such, both VictoriaGrayson and Joshua Jonnathan, come across as attempting to strong arm this MU article seemingly in order to push a Mahayanist agenda. By so doing, they give the appearance of subverting the purpose of the Wikipedia. Rather than present a view that is in line with current understanding, they are making claims that would make the Wikipedia a laughing stock (1st or 2nd century AD, 11 verse MU, Buddhist terms).

The Nakamura reference does not meet the test of [WP:RS] and its novel and unverified claims should be removed from the article. Tcat64 (talk) 12:08, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You don't have a clue who Nakamura was, do you? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:11, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nakamura's "A History of Early Vedānta Philosophy" is a detailed academic reference. Tcat64 just doesn't like it.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Jonathan and VictoriaGrayson, to quote VictoriaGrayson's and your own comments back to you: "Also please stop citing your own personal opinions. You were warned numerous times about this." (see VictoriaGrayson's quote above). It seems while your selectivity blinds you to certain questions. It does not matter if Nakamura is a Bodhisatva. His claims come seemingly from thin air--they cannot be backed up. So, just as 1+1=2, the Nakamura reference does not meet the requirements of WP:RS. Tcat64 (talk) 14:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your personal opinions have nothing to do with determining whether something is RS or not.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 14:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the following text in a note:

"Older sources tend to give an older dating. William K. Mahony dor example, wrote in 1987: "The Upanis:ads of a third group (the Prasna, Maitri (or Maitrayanıya), Jbala, Paingala, and Mandukya Upanisads) return to prose form, but in a language that resembles classical Sanskrit much more than Vedic Sanskrit.

They probably emerged in the late fifth and early fourth centuries BCE although the dates for a few of them are uncertain.(Mahony 1987, p.9483) The most recent source he's referring to is from 1974." The Encyclopedy itself is from 2005; his contribution is from 1987; and his most recent source is from 1974. So, pretty outdated. This is as far as I wish to go for a compromise. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:04, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

He seems unwilling to compromise. See above.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 14:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Joshua, I am sorry but I don't agree. If you add the EB reference (with Olivelle) AND take out the Buddhist influence section, then I am fine. The two of you are undermining Wikipedia's effort to stick to known facts and mainstream understandings, and to not warp information based on some idiosyncratic reference, selected to meet some agenda. I am an academic myself, and I am very familiar with these personal biases. The facts as currently presented are an embarrassment to the Wikipedia. I understand that as devoted and passionate Mahayanists you are possibly attached to the view that Nakamura proposes. Nonetheless, what he proposes does not bear out on further investigation, even if otherwise, he is an internationally renowned scholar. That is not the way it works--just because one is a renowned scholar, does not mean that everything one (the renowned scholar) says is correct. She or he is subject as others, to backing any claims they make with verifiable references to sources. Tcat64 (talk) 15:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You still don't understand WP:VNT.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 15:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who added this line--"Many Buddhist terms and expressions may be found in it, especially the concept of sunyata." It embarasses the Wikipedia--there is no concept of sunyata in the MU. It leads me to think you haven't even read the original MU in Sanskrit. The term in question is Turiya and it is not the same as Sunyata. Again, your doctrinaire and pedantic faith in a flawed secondary source (Nakamura), and your Mahayanist bias, leads you into error, resulting in your embarrassing both yourself and the Wikipedia. Tcat64 (talk) 11:17, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:VNT.VictoriaGrayson^Talk 13:58, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]