Israel Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related Template This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Project Israel To Do: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Cities Template‑class

This template is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities Template This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Of course, "Jerusalem" is not Israeli. West-Jerusalem is, and then we must consider that Israel expanded the "Jerusalem" area definition into East-Jerusalem, and beyond the earlier UN area. But still, these extensions are not Israeli. -DePiep (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently a discussion related to the content of this template at Talk:Israel#Neutral representation of the listing of the largest cities in Israel. Please contribute. GregKaye 00:25, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong place. Should be elsewhere. Israel? Japan? -DePiep (talk) 20:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion at talk:Israel didn't come to a clear conclusion and there is some edit waring over Jerusalem.

Given that Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is rejected by most of the international community, and that there is currently no available number on population of western Jerusalem alone, how in your opinion should Jerusalem be presented in this template ? A few options were proposed so far:

• Jerusalem ^[a]
• West Jerusalem ^[a]
• Jerusalem (west) ^[a]
• Remove Jerusalem from the list entirely
• Something else ?

“WarKosign” 09:07, 22 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support to remove Jerusalem from the list entirely. No part of Jerusalem is internationally recognized as part of Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• support the first option: Jerusalem (a) Ykantor (talk) 21:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am putting Jerusalem in bold so Ykantor's vote is not missed. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Something else West Jerusalem — If all that we have for population statistics is the combined numbers, then put "West Jerusalem (including East Jerusalem, not internationally recognised as Israeli territory)" or something along those lines. This is the usual name for the Israeli portion of Jerusalem. The footnotes also get across the point that the territories are considered occupied in a quick and easy manner. If there's a similar list for Palestine, then for the sake of fairness, you could use either the East Jerusalem number (if it exists anywhere) or the total estimate again and get across the idea in a footnote, (or parenthesis if you can make it short enough) as we have here that the whole city is controlled by Israel, but sovereignty over the eastern half isn't recognised internationally. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 4 Adar 5775 21:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

fairness, do you mean 'correctness'? -DePiep (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A loaded term like fairness was an unwise choice of words on my part. I should have said to keep things balanced. As unfortunate as it is, the nature of the Conflict makes it so that generally the Israeli-related and Palestinian-related articles require the same treatment so as to maintain an unquestionable NPOV (except by those not operating by the standards laid out in Wikipedia policy. It would be nice if neither were a source of controversy, but that's not the world we live in. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 5 Adar 5775 02:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have you noticed the footnote in the examples above ? Is it insufficient in your opinion ? “WarKosign” 22:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have, and for whatever reason I didn't associate the footnote with being part of the final product. That is my mistake and no, I would say it's brief and to the point, so it is more than sufficient. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 5 Adar 5775 02:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not doubt you good intention. But let me note that writing 'Conflict' (capitalised or not) is a, say, cultural approach too ;-). I agree, its difficult & subtle. Maybe leave it out altogether is a solution here, it's just a country after all. -DePiep (talk) 10:18, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, I was just making a general comment there about the unfortunate nature of the world we live in and not proposing the term be used here at all. I don't know of any other name for it and so I must use it. This is probably one of my favourite cities in the world and it's always peaceful when we are there for our yearly two drunken nights of eating at the Armenian Tavern, drinking at Bar Putin and Zoli's, and dancing at Toybar, and the following mornings of relaxing at the Austrian Hospice and eating schnitzel (now that's a pilgrimage). So the usual fighting in Wikipedia over the city (not saying anyone in this thread is guilty of that) is something that bugs me. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 5 Adar 5775 15:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Request to everyone —I'd also like to request that everyone who comments here please leave your personal feelings, emotions, sense of right and wrong and everything else out of it. Please base your choices (even if you don't like them) on Wikipedia policy and policy alone as is the duty of every Wikipedian. If you feel you can't do that, then maybe consider the possibility that it might be best to bow out of this discussion entirely. I request this of people on both sides of the issue and everyone in between. Thank you. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 4 Adar 5775 21:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Something else I am not sure on this one yet. Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem is not recognized, however, many newspapers etc. seem to treat the western part as Israeli so it could then be included. If so, it should be added that sovereignty is not recognized or something similiar and that it includes occupied East Jerusalem. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

West Jerusalem I'm changing to that and a link to it could be included. Include a note about it not being recognized, and if figures include East Jerusalem, add that it includes that occupied part. Controlling something does not mean that you own it. Israel controls but it does not own it. If and how much they should is an issue in the negotiations but right now, their sovereignty is not recognized and when it comes to the eastern part, it is strongly rejected. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:55, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• West Jerusalem preferred. In any situation it must be clear that "Jerusalem" (municipality, 1948, 1967, UN area, ...) is not a city in Israel/Israeli city. -DePiep (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Jerusalem or Jerusalem (west). It must be clarified (for example with a footnote, as is in each of the proposals above) that the number includes East Jerusalem, and that East Jerusalem is nearly universally not recognized as a legal part of Israel. I object to "West Jerusalem" because of this clarification; otherwise the clarification would read that West Jerusalem includes East Jerusalem which is nonsense. “WarKosign” 22:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Jerusalem As much as opponents of Israeli control state that Jerusalem is not a part of Israel, it is. Israel controls it and therefore owns it. There is a difference between "should own it", which is the argument against Israel controlling Jerusalem, and who actually owns it, which is Israel. The debate is over who should own it, not who actually owns it. Since Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital, Jerusalem should appear in its entirety as one of Israel's largest cities. There should be a footnote stating that control of Jerusalem is disputed, however. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about "owning". Jerusalem is not in Israel. Therefor it is not Israeli. An encyclopedia must write that. -DePiep (talk) 09:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The template is called "Largest cities of Israel". Jerusalem is arguably not in Israel, but it is administered by Israel and populated by Israel, so it can reasonably be considered to be of Israel. “WarKosign” 09:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No reason to do so. That would add confusion to the encyclopedia, instead of clarifying the situation. starters, all other tempaltes are "Cities of" Keep it about "Israeli cities" and specify the Jerusalem partition. We should even consider the top comment here by Supreme Deliciousness. -DePiep (talk) 10:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is part of Israel whether it should be or not. You can say that Jerusalem should not be part of Israel, but you can't say that Jerusalem is not part of Israel. The template is for cities of Israel, so Jerusalem as a whole should be in the template. The partition and any international recognition is irrelevant. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I support West Jerusalem or remove Jerusalem from the list entirely. I would also support a superscript note explaining the position of the Israeli Government on Jerusalem, and I would hyperlink West Jerusalem. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Jerusalem; the "it is not part of Israel" selection does not conform with internal sources who calculate demographics for the State of Israel.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:08, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Actually, West Jerusalem isn't recognized as Israeli either. There exists a sort of consensus that as a part of an agreement with the Palestinians, Israel is likely to get West Jerusalem, but as it is now, no country (AFAIK) has recognized West Jerusalem as Israeli, and certainly the majority hasn't. See e.g. "Whither Jerusalem" by Hirsch, Housen-Couriel and Lapidot at page 17: "west Jerusalem (...) most states have not recognized its sovereignty there". --Dailycare (talk) 19:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Remove Jerusalem - no nation recognizes any part of Jerusalem as being in Israel. While Israel has forcefully taken control of the city, pushed out many natives, moved many of their nationals into the city, and as RightCowLeftCoast says, they pretend that it is their city, this does not actually make the city in Israel any more than Ariel is in Israel. 70.50.123.188 (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]