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Could someone please archive most of this page? I'm not sure how to do it. Thanks Span (talk) 06:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Nirvana2013 (talk) 19:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the ethics of permaculture, as espoused by mollison and holmgren, are: 1: care of earth 2: care of people 3: share the surplus. why is the third ethic on this site changed to 'setting limits to consumption and production'? it is not as simple or as accurate....in fact it is not of the same spirit at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavtheelf (talk • contribs) 10:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The ethics of permaculture are as stated and cited in this article and come directly from Permaculture: A Designer's Manual. "Share the surplus" is a new phrase meant to be less provocative. The original concept was a focus on simplicity that would not overconsume nonrenewable resources and that would regenerate and improve the resiliency of renewable resources. "Share the surplus" does not adequately capture this concept. (74.96.85.98 (talk) 04:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC))[reply]

It would seem to me that the ethics would vary a bit if you are using permaculture as a farmer to make a living as well, as opposed to permaculture in your own personal non-commercial garden forest. I am not sure how one would convey the concept in the article such that it fits every situation. Possibly rewrite it using somewhere the phrase: "generous with others and frugal for yourself"? Remember this concept of permaculture, while developed by Bill, Seth etc..., has grown to the point of being a general concept with many people around the world participating in it's further developement now. The article, since it is an encyclopedia, should convey that more general POV...IMHO Redddbaron (talk) 16:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When David Holmgren was a student of Bill Mollison's at Hobart University, he did, as part of his course, a literature survey of perennial food-bearing plants. Bill Mollison, known for coining catchy names, abbreviated the existing idea of "permanent agriculture" to Permaculture. At this point nothing new had been created except a word. At the time of publishing Permaculture One, it seems that neither Mollison nor Holmgren had actually planted a permaculture garden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.137.82 (talk) 07:16, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a citation for this? If so, it can (and probably should) be added to the article as it is notable point. Nirvana2013 (talk) 08:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that presumes that the coiners of this term "invented" permaculture. They did not. They simply looked at the notion of "permanent agriculture" and distilled the principles found among long-lived sustainable cultures around the world (and there are a few) into a set of principles. Permaculture has been around for as long as people have been using agriculture in a way that is sustainable. There are few examples, and many more examples of unsustainable agricultural practices. I think whether Mollison or Holmgren had planted a garden is a moot point and does not bear on this subject. Since the permaculture principles have been espoused, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of examples where these systems have worked. Additionally, permaculture is a set of design principles, it is not simply a gardening manual. ~ * ~ Blue Electric Storm ~ * ~ (talk) 23:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nowhere is the selecting of plants with sequential fruiting times mentioned, nor is seasonal eating mentioned, see Community-supported agriculture 91.182.169.80 (talk) 09:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not encouraging to see an image of ploughing at the start of the page on permaculture. I'd like to suggest that the Agriculture template should be removed. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:54, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The Agriculture template is simply being used as a universal signal of agriculture. --PhxJennifer 20:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhxJennifer (talk • contribs)

Can we remove the following from the page:

There are 26 references and 46 notes listed as of March 19,2013. I find that is it well-referenced and well-researched. I'd like to know what other editors have to say about this. ~ * ~ Blue Electric Storm ~ * ~ (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, just remove it. The general tag is completely inappropriate, since generally the article is well referenced, and the specific areas that need citations have been specifically identified. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did a pretty substantial rewrite of the Managed intensive rotational grazing section. Primarily I did this as an attempt to clarify the differences between grazing and/or forage systems that meet the permaculture standards and those that don't. Any critique or additional clarification in order to help improve this section is welcome.Redddbaron (talk) 04:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It might need more references to show its actually a permaculture technique.--Salix (talk): 08:29, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't always. That's the problem. MIRG includes many forms of management and not all of them reach the high standards of permaculture in every respect. As a general rule, most do. The perennial (permanent) is the biodiversity of the grass (instead of the forest) and the concept of rotational grazing mimicking nature is a key principle in permaculture, but you couldn't claim all the forms of MIRG are permaculture. For example, typically a permaculture pasture may have 10-20+ different species of grass and broadleaf plants. Also typically a permaculture pasture may rotate though cows sheep chickens and other species on the same ground. Sepp uses pigs and chickens (and I think maybe sheep too) But the permaculture version has been copied by some that sometimes even plow a field and plant 1 or two types of grass and clover and use MIRG a couple years to improve the land, then plow it back under for crops. That wouldn't fit as a permaculture method....but at least better than conventional ag. So how do you advise I handle that issue? Obviously the way Sepp and Bill do it is permaculture...they are fathers of permaculture. Redddbaron (talk) 03:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I took out a sentence that had absolutely no context indicating its relevance: "Ivan Taslimson organic permaculture dwellings system was unveiled in Bali." Indeed, neither of the two sources (1 and 2) mentions him nor Bali. Looks like someone just tried to slip their name into Wikipedia. Watch out. --Oop (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was readded, it seems :) Bennylin (talk) 15:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I also deleted it after another +/- cycle because the url did not allow verification and a web search did not reveal a reliable source. Pinethicket (talk)

There was a request to improve the lead section and the article was tagged. Rather than add redundant information, I think simply reorganizing what is already there should solve this issue.Redddbaron (talk) 05:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Permaculture is a design philosophy which seeks to learn from and imitate naturally occurring patterns. Patterns occur in nature in many forms: From studying Fractals, patterns emerge as mathematical principles from apparently random things such as the shape of plants."

Really? I have no clear picture of what permaculture is (even after reading the article) but this one small part alone makes it look extremely esoteric. If that's unintentional, it should be removed or replaced. --Mudd1 (talk) 08:01, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. That particular quote is a bit over the top. Not exactly wrong, but you are right, esoteric. Most people understand that one of the key elements of permaculture is to mimic patterns in nature which are self organising and regenerative, as opposed to conventional agriculture which requires large inputs of energy and material to function and are thus not sustainable long term. I'll see if that could possibly could be lacking and/or improved in the article.Redddbaron (talk) 13:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stub list more useful at this point as part of parent article. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment* The list has quite long descriptions of its entries . Jonpatterns (talk) 12:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• True, but lists need not be simply lists of things. In fact some of the most useful lists on Wikipedia are 'value added' lists that provide the reader key information about the items listed. Entries on the existing permaculture list article can be edited for succinctness & consistency... Regards, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 14:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]