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Talk:Joan Rivers: Difference between revisions

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== Here we go with the quotes==
== Here we go with the quotes==


User:LightShow seems to make a habit of filling articles of recently dead celebrities with all kinds of third-party quotes from biographers and people sometimes only incidentally connected to the subject, despite longstanding ways in which Wikipedia biographical articles are written without overquoting. He did a similar overhaul to [[Robin Williams]], making the article much poorer, in my opinion. Biographical articles "treated" in "this way" start to look like a [[Zagat]] guide. [[User:Moncrief|Moncrief]] ([[User talk:Moncrief|talk]]) 21:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
User:LightShow seems to make a habit of filling articles of recently dead celebrities with all kinds of third-party quotes from biographers and people sometimes only incidentally connected to the subject, despite longstanding ways in which Wikipedia biographical articles are written without overquoting. The user did a similar overhaul to [[Robin Williams]], making the article much poorer, in my opinion. Biographical articles "treated" in "this way" start to look like a [[Zagat]] guide. [[User:Moncrief|Moncrief]] ([[User talk:Moncrief|talk]]) 21:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:54, 4 September 2014


Celebrity Apprentice - Mark Burnett personal interests

Mark Burnett, Celebrity Apprentice producer, announced a new show, "How'd You Get So Rich" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How'd_You_Get_So_Rich%3F in which Joan Rivers would star, in November 2008, before winner of Celebrity Apprentice had been known. http://www.nypost.com/seven/11142008/tv/joan_rivers_ambushes_the_rich_138531.htm

Wikipedia visitors might be interested in this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 871x (talk • contribs) 10:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Celebrity Apprentice

I think someone who is able to edit protected pages should make a sepearte section which details more about her win on Celebrity Apprenitce. It will be a huge part of her legacy and it likely introduced her to the younger generations which before only new her by cameos. It seems that it should have a more significant place then a brief sentence at the end of a larger section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ic2705 (talk • contribs) 01:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:55, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If it means anything, I don't think of her as a gay icon. Just playing a lesbian doesn't count, of course, but everything about Joan is a phony farce. Her talking up "gay rights" is just another game to her. Sure many people are like that but with Joan being so obvious she just shouldn't be included. It makes a mockery of what a true icon represents to the gay community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.30.225.46 (talk) 18:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removed colloquialism

I am appaled by the use of the horrible American colloquialism "gotten" in this article, so I have changed it to the correct synonym: "had". I also corrected other words in this sentence to make the tense consistent. Christoper P. Martin, 17:14, 20 Oct 2005 (BST)

You spelt "appalled" wrong. Love, WindFish 09:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Wrong?" I believe you meant "incorrectly". 208.104.52.233 (talk) 13:58, 21 October 2012 (UTC)J271[reply]

American colloquialism? I hear "got" and "gotten" many times in British films.Lestrade 16:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]
SPELT??? I believe you meant "spelled," WindFish.

Unsourced Stein statement

I don't know how to add them so they look nice so here you go, please someone add this http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEED6163FF935A35751C1A961948260

Joan's albums and books

Joan Rivers' comedy album which was released in the 1980s was not called "Can We Talk?" It was called "What Becomes a Semi-Legend Most?". Her first album, released in the late 60s or early 70s, was called "The Next to Last Joan Rivers Album"

The Book Enter Talking was released in the 1980s, not the 1990s. It came before Bouncing Back. It does not mention Edgar's Suicide, as that had not occurred when the book was written. Enter Talking was released either shortly before or soon after the premiere of "The Late Show." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.193.250.114 (talk) 03:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Didn't she direct a film?

Rabbit Test (film)? shouldn't it be on the page? Stimpy9337 19:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bowling for Soup

Could I have a reference for this:

She also insulted Chris Burney, the basist in Bowling for Soup. He called him a "fatso" and called his band "Bowling for Crap". Later that year she voted Bowling for Soup as the worst dressed musicians. The band took this very seriously and bought an amp saying "f**k you Joan. This has also been mentioned in the Jimmy Kimmel show.

Thanks JameiLei 20:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even without a reference, is this really notable? Rivers' schtick is insulting celebrities, there's not much purpose (or encyclopedic value) in enumerating individual examples, I'd have thought. 18:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean?

The band took this very seriously and bought an amp saying "fuck you Joan". --Filll (talk) 04:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very strange

Uploaded new picture on the Fringe page, but for some reason on here it's showing as a stretched version of the old one... Adaircairell (talk) 12:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cystic fibrosis

"Rivers is the National Chairwoman of the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation" - is there a particular reason why? Does she have some personal experience of the condition? If so, I feel this article would benefit from some elaboration Dom Kaos (talk) 21:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any other examples of civic involvement? Any charitable giving or volunteerism? Thanks, 69.118.112.224 (talk) 22:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Apprentice

I think it goes without saying that things like calling Annie Duke a Nazi and "a string of verbal abuse" violate NPOV policy. However, the show's website does list Joan Rivers as "active". She may be back this Sunday, or (given the show's history) return in the final episode to help Clint Black/Jesse James beat Duke. Please keep an eye out for these kinds of edits in my wiki-absence. Recognizance (talk) 15:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to your comment:

"I think it goes without saying that things like calling Annie Duke a Nazi and "a string of verbal abuse" violate NPOV policy."

I think you are confused as to what NPOV means. It doesn't mean not recording distasteful things. That those things happened are incontrovertible and were witnessed by millions. Any sentence which says Joan Rivers compared Annie Duke to Hitler is merely a statement of an incontrovertible fact. You may argue about the neutrality of the language, but not the fact itself, and if so, please feel free to put something together on the Nazi comment and Joan river's other outbursts and insults in your own words.

Her words may have been may be controversial, distasteful and something that Joan Rivers wish she never said. But there is no doubt that she said those words. And they are worthy of recording for exactly that reason. The living person policy exists to shield people from heresay and unverifiable claims. This is not the case here. Her words are recorded for posterity in other media, and should also be recorded here. However continual editing trying to hide or deny that she actually said the words violates the NPOV policy. It's a crime against truth and equally biased editing to delete material with the sole purpose being to push the existence of an event under the carpet. I'd encourage you to become part of the solution rather than as you currently are, part of the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.41.129 (talk) 22:22, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For your reference:

"If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.41.129 (talk) 22:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Paragraphing

I find that the current paragraphing in the article makes it difficult to read. For instance, the last paragraph in the 2000s goes from December 2007 up to last week! There are simple rules for paragraphing that can be found in sources from Strunk & White to Wikipedia. I would like to go through this article and re-parapraph so that separate concepts are kept separately. For instance, in the 2000s, the information about The Celebrity Apprentice should be in its own paragraph. Any thoughts before I begin re-paragraphing? SpikeToronto (talk) 18:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Celebrity Apprentice

{{editsemiprotected}} Rivers later returned to the show and on May 10, 2009, she was selected by Donald Trump as the Celebrity Apprentice, beating out Annie Duke for the position.

Not done: Could you be more specific? I couldn't find an obvious spot in the article to place that sentence. Celestra (talk) 14:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another cameo

She appeared at Curb Your Enthusiasmfirst 23 September 2002 (Season 3, Episode 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.20.24.54 (talk) 00:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0551400/fullcredits#cast[reply]

"Real" name

According to this article: http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en (and many others about this indecent), the name on her passport is Joan Rosenberg. I assume that this would be her "real" legal name at the moment. Proxy User (talk) 04:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or more so, as a Jew, even "Joan Rosenberg" is a misnomer. I would like to know her real name, her real Jewish name. That is the only one that counts as real.

Aesthetic surgery

Oviously the woman has had quite a lot, any log behind it? Jackpot Den 01:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's practically what she's famous for (having lots of plastic surgery), why isn't there anything on it in her article? CTVampSlayer 11:33, 9 October 2006.

So that's why she looks like an alien? Spooky. 77.118.240.45 09:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There should be some mention of it here in the article regardless of how obvious recent images of her make it (damn, I hope I look that good when I'm 75), people who are nearly notorious for their appearance are required to have some information on the subject in their article. K.H (talk) 07:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, how could this be a B-class article with no mention of the surgery? Time for a reassessment, I think. Viriditas (talk) 04:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, that's actually what I came to this page looking for, information about her plastic surgeries. There must be some mention. Wikipedia fail here. Abergeman (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pennsylvania Film studio started by Joan and husband

Sometime between the late seventies and the end of the eighties, Joan and her husband started a film studio in Pennsyvania. It was on the Philadelphia news but not in Philadelphis. It later failed. I don't know if any films were made there. Nosoy2010 (talk) 02:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Age

She is now 81 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.34.211 (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Because it would be controversial

I'd like to propose this on the talk first, rather than boldly do it, because it would be controversial:

I'd like to remove her gross jokes out of this entry. For example, in Criticism it reads:

Rivers has been criticized on numerous occasions for making jokes that are either insensitive or about serious matters. In 2013 she came under heavy criticism for making jokes about Adele's weight. Follow the birth of Adele's son in 2012, Rivers tweeted "Congratulations to Adele on the birth of her 68 pound 8 ounces bouncing baby boy." [40] Rivers continued to make jokes about her weight following her Academy Award win for "Skyfall".[41] Rivers refused to apologize.[42]

I would make a motion that it be changed to the following

Rivers has been criticized on numerous occasions for making jokes that are either insensitive or about serious matters. In 2013 she came under heavy criticism for makes jokes about Adele's weight. Rivers continued to make jokes about her weight following her Academy Award win for "Skyfall". Rivers refused to apologize.

Essentially, clean up the controversy section so that it just states that facts, in the same way as I've demonstrated above, so that we have the facts, but don't have to repeat her vile remarks. They're unnecessary and , while they don't violate any specific policy, I would consider it both common sense and IAR in that removing her vile remarks would keep to the facts, and improve wikipedia by not having her verbal pollution in the article. Reprinting her remarks are not needed for encyclopedic tone, nor for fair reporting of the facts. I'll wait and see what consensus says before taking any action. And for the record, I'm definetly biased against Joan Rivers (yet another reason not to act, but ask first  :) ) Kosh Vorlon    21:16, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Manually editing the date above to keep it out of archive for a while. I want as long of a time as possible for people to see this and make their consensus known. Kosh Vorlon    11:11, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As a drive-by, I agree that adding isolated jokes doesn't work well for this, or most comedian bios. But I also feel it's almost silly to note that some of her jokes are "controversial" or insensitive about serious matters, since the essence of most comedy is based on making fun of "serious" events or issues. Rivers made a hundred jokes about Elizabeth Taylor's rapid weight gain, and she typically made more fun of her own dress and weight. --Light show (talk) 20:06, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Death

Word is out that Rivers has suffered cardiac arrest, but there's already a death date in this article without any citation or other further reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.122.9.74 (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That was vandalism, or possibly an edit made by someone who had been given false information. Whatever the case, it's been reverted.--Cojovo (talk) 17:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, there has been a lot of controversy on the Jahi McMath article about "date of death", so if an editor is in California, they may actually have Joan River's date of death as the date she became brain-dead, or went on machines. River's status also illustrates the vast difference between how suffering brain-death-(if that is what Rivers had when she sustained cardiac arrest) is treated differently in states like NY and NJ compared to California. Any ref.to "hoping for a miracle" etc. was labeled as "fringe" and roundly abused in the McMath case, and even the media has a different "spin" http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738687/Joan-Rivers-family-face-agonizing-decision-not-turn-life-support-machine-legendary-comic-fights-life.html when someone is "not quite dead" in NYC.24.0.133.234 (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Johnny Carson

Johnny Carson was not the first late night talk show host nor did he pioneer the format. Steve Allen and Jack Paar were most responsible for developing the format and also very successful at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.188.25.68 (talk) 03:38, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article does not make either claim. Perhaps you intended to comment upon the article Johnny Carson? Dwpaul Talk 03:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Or, perhaps s/he intended to comment upon the article Joan Rivers, in which the second paragraph of the lead begins: "Rivers first came to prominence in 1965 as a guest on The Tonight Show, the first of the late-night chat programs with interviews and comedy, pioneered by Johnny Carson, whom she acknowledges as her mentor." 2600:1006:B103:1681:B945:D20A:9451:85D (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gaza bombing controversy

Nothing on this neither in the whole article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2719688/Youre-dead-deserve-dead-started-Joan-Rivers-astonishing-attack-stupid-Palestinians.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.16.175.251 (talk) 20:38, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 1 September 2014

Please add the following information that was previously in the article but someone has removed it. This is important information that was reported in the mainstream media. To be added at the end of the "2000-present" chapter citing current events. Thank you:

"In July 2014, Rivers was asked by a reporter, “Do you think the United States will see the first gay president or the first woman president?” She replied, "We already have it with Obama, so let’s just calm down.” She further added, “You know Michelle is a tranny.” The cameraman responded, “I’m sorry, she’s a what?” “A transgender. We all know,” Rivers said before walking away." Source: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/joan-rivers-calls-president-obama-716738

Seeker79dreamer (talk) 23:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done - this is not "important information" - it is total trivia, which is why it was, correctly, deleted before. - Arjayay (talk) 08:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP should not promote tabloid journalism

Part of the article is digressing into sensationalism, adding tabloid-style statements about some jokes or her personal opinions outside her professional capacity. The article should really try to refocus on what she's notable for, as the lead sentence makes clear: Joan Rivers is an American actress, comedian, writer, producer and television host, best known for her stand-up comedy.

Rivers did not claim to be a doctor or dietitian, so her personal opinion jokes about other celebrity's excessive weight or their underweight status, should not become a separate topic of criticism. The same is true of other particular jokes, which don't become encyclopedic simply because a tabloid somewhere quotes an unhappy subject of the joke. Since she was noted for making fun of celebrities, along with herself, a few examples of her style are enough to make the point. If her general style of humor was either loved or criticized by some, that's objective and could be included. But making humor out of events or people, like she did in "Joan Rivers in the UK", was her style.

Nor did she ever claim to be a politician, although like many comedians, politics and politicians were a subject of their humor. But a reporter stopping a celebrity in a public place to get their personal opinion about world events, then WP adding those opinions, is even more non-encyclopedic and simply promotes the same tabloid style. Her airport-terminal comments about the Gaza war, which some tabloids called a "rant," resembled a "set-up" by news-hungry reporters looking for headlines. The commentary about it is clearly non-neutral in any case, since it takes a phrase out of context by excluding her other comments: The Palestinians… you cannot throw rockets, and not expect people to defend themselves. . . don’t put your goddamn things in private homes! I’m sorry, don’t you dare put weapons stashes in private homes!. But none of that kind of interview material really belongs anywhere except on tabloid media. Like the other stuff, it's trivia, non-neutral, off-topic and irrelevant to her professional notability. --Light show (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

She's Alive

Joan Rivers is still alive as far as I can tell from news outlets. The "recent death" tag is premature. Upjav (talk) 19:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be some sources saying she died today.
Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 19:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When I looked ~10 minutes ago, it was mixed. Thank you for correcting me. Rest in Peace, Joan. Upjav (talk) 19:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2014

Joan Rivers Died. RIPJoanRivers (talk) 19:19, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is insufficient evidence of her death, and recent media coverage shows that she is alive. Also, your username seems fishy, bud. Upjav (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I had conducted my search just before it was confirmed. Upjav (talk) 19:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well someone blanked out most of this page before it was protected. Some admin should restore it. I can't. Web Warlock (talk) 19:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
nevermind. been done. Web Warlock (talk) 19:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
RIP Joan Rivers.-- Theda 19:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lede paragraph name and date

@Taram:: It's very common for articles to start with a person's legal name, followed by the name they're known as. Just a few examples: Bill Clinton, Charlie Sheen, Chuck D, Ice-T. I'm surprised that someone with 1000+ edits would not have noticed this. Also, why have the valid citations twice been removed from Joan Rivers' birthdate, death date, and real name? There is no guideline on Wikipedia to support the claim that we "do not need a citation for date of death" as one of your edit summaries said, and certainly no guideline to say that they should be removed once placed. (There is WP:OVERCITE but that's for cases where the number of citations in overwhelming in one place.) Wikipedia is intended to have a long-term view, not momentary ideas of what is obvious and what is not; a person 5 or 30 years from now will not be sitting with a TV behind them hearing about Joan Rivers' death like this afternoon; they should have sources that are already verifiable and reliable and not have to guess at whether the text was verified by anyone else, or what Google (or whatever is around at the time) might show. --Closeapple (talk) 20:10, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The death date is sufficiently cited in the death section, thus making any cites in the lede redundant. Connormah (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go with the quotes

User:LightShow seems to make a habit of filling articles of recently dead celebrities with all kinds of third-party quotes from biographers and people sometimes only incidentally connected to the subject, despite longstanding ways in which Wikipedia biographical articles are written without overquoting. The user did a similar overhaul to Robin Williams, making the article much poorer, in my opinion. Biographical articles "treated" in "this way" start to look like a Zagat guide. Moncrief (talk) 21:49, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]