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== High F trumpets in (French) romantic and impressionist music? ==

Did they really ever use high F trumpets as regular instruments or was this always a notation convention? (In Debussy's 1905 "La Mer", for example, we have trumpets notated in high F, alongside cornets in B flat) -- [[User:MegA|megA]] ([[User talk:MegA|talk]]) 14:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:20, 30 October 2013

Former good article nomineeTrumpet was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 17, 2009Good article nomineeNot listed
WikiProject iconMusical Instruments C‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Musical Instruments, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of musical instruments on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Musical InstrumentsWikipedia:WikiProject Musical InstrumentsTemplate:WikiProject Musical Instrumentsmusical instruments
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconJazz C‑class High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Jazz, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of jazz on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JazzWikipedia:WikiProject JazzTemplate:WikiProject JazzJazz
CThis article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
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Talk:Trumpet/Archive1

"Further reading" format

I am a little baffled by the format of the "Further reading" section. It has title, date and SBN but no author or other data. I know that from the SBN you can get other data till it is coming out of your ears but even so I would have thought that the author was part of the minimum requirement for display on the page itself. I do tend to think of "Smithers" or "Bate" rather than "0918194024" or whatever. I know this may be some new wiki policy since I stopped being very interested (coincidentally enough, in about 1721) so if it is please enlighten me gently. Otherwise I think some nice young person should please put the authors in, thus saving this nasty old person from having to do so. :) 138.37.199.206 13:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No reply. Is this utterly bizarre format seen as normal, or what? I am genuinely baffled. Nomorenonotnever (talk) 09:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The further reading section was added back in August [1] and I don't think it has been edited since. Feel free to add the authors names.--Dbolton (talk) 03:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That C and B-flat sentence

I believe the sentence was saying that the most common place one would find a C trumpet is in an American orchestra, not that the C trumpet is the most common trumpet used in American orchestras. I've changed it to say that more clearly (I hope!). The first sentence in that paragraph should just simply state that the B-flat is the most common horn, since it probably accounts for 99.9% of trumpets being used in any ensemble - jazz bands, concert bands, wind ensembles, rock and roll, etc. etc. Feel free to change it or tweak it further, but I think the problem was in that sentence being a little unclear. - Special-T (talk) 00:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on this one. Maybe we should expand the differences in geographical uses of models of turmpet. e.g. Gret-Britain and Russia will have almost no C trumpets in orchestral use, whereas France and the Netherlands will have virtually no Bb trumpets at all in the same symphony orchestras. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.94.67.74 (talk) 09:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Musical pieces

This is a seemingly random list of musical pieces that may involve the use of the trumpet. The Musical pieces section needs to be built up carefully with explanations of why each piece has been chosen, and those explanations backed up with sources. I move the list here for people to use as a starting point (or to completely ignore as useless - it's up to you!). SilkTork *YES! 13:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

→What I remember from a few years ago is starting a section with a list of orchestral excerpts used to audition for major orchestras. This list might be extremely useful. It perhaps has since wandered. dfrankow (talk) 17:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Solos

The chromatic trumpet was first made in the late 1700s, but there were several solos written for the natural trumpet that are now played on piccolo trumpet. Some important works of trumpet repertoire are:

Natural Trumpet/Piccolo Trumpet

Other

Homophony and the Role of the Trumpet

I believe the contention that, "The melody-dominated homophony of the classical and romantic periods relegated the trumpet to a secondary role by most major composers" to be false. While the trumpet often served a secondary role, much like the timpani, during the Classical period, this does not hold true during the Romantic period. Important 19th century composers such as Mahler and Bruckner often featured the trumpet. The opening solo of Mahler's Fifth Symphony, for example, features an unaccompanied trumpet. Trumpets, along with the other brass instruments, were often given melodic primacy and played important thematic roles throughout the nineteenth century. It is inaccurate, therefore, to say that the trumpet held a secondary role during the Romantic period. Sethbowers (talk) 17:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, but compared to the Baroque period the Classical orchestral trumpet was much less prominent, having a more-or-less punctuating role. 90.205.92.150 (talk) 05:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rectangular trumpets?

The sentence in the "construction" section about the tubing being bent into a rectangle is misleading at best - the straight sections are, of course, connected with curved sections and the overall shape is not rectangular. The statement is also not supported by the reference it claims as support (#8- which has very little actual info about the trumpet). The second sentence of the article also mentions "rectangular" shape. - Special-T (talk) 03:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question at Sinfonietta (Janáček)

In the instrumentation of the Sinfonietta (Janáček), are the trumpets in F pitched above or below the trumpets in C? Badagnani (talk) 04:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Above. Nearly all F trumpet parts are high, that is, they sound a fourth above the written pitch. It's quite unusual for them to be low and when it is it's always made clear. Low would put those Janacek parts into an alto register where they'd have trouble cutting through and would be mixed up with the horns and trombones, whereas on recordings you hear them soaring over much of the orchestra. Hope this helps. Nomorenonotnever (talk) 08:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Trumpet/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. Hi, I'm sorry to say I've failed this article's GA nomination. There are a few significant issues (see criteria) which need addressing. Namely,

  • References - need formatting ({{cite web}} is good)... publisher information, access dates, etc.
    • I'd expect there to be a lot of book references (Google Books at worst) as opposed to some random websites.
    • There are a lot of unsourced statements... random example; the Fingering section.
  • Prose and MOS - "A common method book for beginners is the "Walter Beeler Method", and there have been several instruction books written by virtuoso Allen Vizzutti." - books go in italics, not quotation marks, and this sentence needs rewording. This is one random example, not a rule.

Please do renominate when you think the article meets the GA criteria. Good luck, giggy (:O) 02:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

History confusion

When it says "bronze and silver trumpets" in the history section, does that mean:

  • Trumpets consisting of bronze and silver, or
  • Trumpets made of bronze and trumpets made of silver?

This question may be confusing at first, but it'll come to you. Please answer this question ASAP! QuackOfaThousandSuns (talk) 02:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What would peoples' opinion be of a link to TrumpetGuru? It is an educational site with extended articles on subjects raised on the main page, especially trumpet history and construction. Also resources for trumpet players such as charts for scales and fingerings. Mdkingston (talk) 10:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Animated valve operation

I'm completely familiar with how trumpets work, but when I first saw the diagram explaining the valve operation, it confused me. On closer inspection, I can see that yes, it is technically accurate, just a bit difficult to interpret. I think it would be very cool if we could change this to be an animated image. It should use some aspect of 3d perspective so the construction of the valve is more evident, and it should have arrows zooming along showing how the air flows between the different valve positions. Am I going to do this? Probably not, unless I get extremely bored; I just wanted to throw the thought out there. -Verdatum (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Playing

There is a lot of important communal knowledge about how to play the trumpet. Some is captured in the "Embouchure" ref, but where is any discussion of breathing, mouthpiece pressure, etc? I started or contributed to that section long ago, and now it's gone. dfrankow (talk) 17:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:NOT#HOWTO - Wikipedia is not a "how-to" manual, but an encyclopedia, so that information is not appropriate. Also, information added needs to have published references. - Special-T (talk) 18:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Players

There is much talk of jazz trumpeters, but very little given about classical trumpeters and the evolution in that realm. I would like to see this expanded. Abh535s (talk) 06:59, 9 February 2009 (UTC) You just load up the page with lots of mediocre African American trumpet players, but you refuse to put the white Christian trumpet players on it like Dan Oxley, Dr. Michael E. Schmidt and Phil Driscoll. Then you erase my discussion comments because you know I am right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.251.125.123 (talk) 15:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC) Can't see how there can be no mention of Miles Davis in the notable Jazz trumpeters section. I greatly respect all of the white guys the previous poster mentioned, but there is technique and then there is the stuff Miles showed us. There is really no comparison here, Miles innovated in a way none of the others mentioned could **OR DID**. Miles deserves rightly to have a mention, and if it comes to a choice between Dan Oxley and Miles, this middle aged white guy gets that Miles is the notable charachter. (no offense Dan, Dr Mike or Phil, but I am sure each of them would agree)71.184.157.245 (talk) 01:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)Mark[reply]

Imagery

Is it just me, or is the trumpeter depicted under "Extended technique" actually holding a trombone. I'll leave it for a few days, but if no one objects I'm going to edit it out of the article.Lidmann (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you meant the picture of Dizzy Gillespie, then that is a trumpet not a trombone. I added an explanatory note to the image caption.--dbolton (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even then there are questions. Dizzy Gillespie's trumpet looks like it's broken somehow. Or is it possible to move the bell up while keeping the valves parallel to the ground without breaking the instrument? Willi Gers07 (talk) 19:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The slides and crooks of any brass instrument start out as straight tubes, and are bent to shape. Don't try it at home. __Just plain Bill (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Willi Gers07: See Dizzy Gillespie for more information on his trumpet.--dbolton (talk) 02:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, there was a brass band image. It was very small and hard to discern, but none of the instruments looked like a trumpet, so I removed it. - Special-T (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the caption under the photo of a piccolo trumpet is in error. It should probably indicate the pictured configuration is in C. The medium leadpipe would make it B-flat and the large would be A. In any case, it can't very well be B-flat both as pictured, and with a different length leadpipe....

Also, the Dizzy Gillespie bent trumpet was as much a signature as his grotesquely inflated face when he played. The angle of the bell was presumably intended to project the sound more efficiently to the audience, rather like some euphoniums having bells that point straight up, and others bent to face forwards, or a tuba (up) and a Sousaphone (forward). Whether it really achieved this, or just looked distinctive I can't comment on.24.130.171.10 (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC) Warren Houghton[reply]

Move Maynard stuff

Way too much about one player, and some of it is blatant POV. Someone can take the good parts and put it into his article:

While he was not the first trumpeter to play in the extreme upper register, he made a point to play in the upper register as much as possible, placing a strong emphasis on range to the detriment of tone, intonation, and musicality. While regarded by some[who?] as showboating, Ferguson's tone, phrasing and vibrato was instantly recognizable and has been influential on and imitated by generations of amateur and professional trumpet players. A direct connection to Ferguson's style of playing continues in the work of the trumpeters who played with him, notably Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, and Eric Miyashiro. These players, while strongly influenced by Maynard Ferguson, placed a much greater emphasis on tone, intonation, and musicality, while still maintaining the extraordinary range that Ferguson possessed. Although some had believed that Ferguson was endowed with exceptional facial musculature, he often shared in interviews that his command of the upper registers was based mostly on breath control,[1] something he had discovered as a youngster in Montreal.

  1. ^ Zan Stewart (1985). "Maynard's Changes". Down Beat. Retrieved 2007-07-20. There's nothing superstrong about my lip, but there is about my range and stamina. That comes from [...] my breathing. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

- Special-T (talk) 22:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personal opinion

The trumpet is used in many forms of music, though the most recognized players have been in the jazz field--->I think this quote is the personal opinion not valid statement and the whole article is written in a perspective of american music history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.82.180 (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "tuning (or sliding) bell trumpet"

Under Construction, the article says that "Renold Schilke designed the tuning (or sliding) bell trumpet." I have never heard of this. Is it a standard part of modern trumpets? If it's not, I think it should be deleted. Squandermania (talk) 17:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This page has the following quote from the Schilke catalog:

"Detachable tuning-bells are available on all Schilke custom built trumpets. The advantage of the tuning bell feature is that the tuning slide can be left all the way in or moved only a little, thereby keeping the bore relatively free of gaps that may cause a disturbance in the nodal pattern of the sound wave. Another advantage is that different bells of varying sizes and materials can be used to change some of the characteristics of the instrument. The main drawback to the tuning-bell instrument is that it is more fragile because of the lack of the second brace. Consequently extra care must be taken to prevent damage to the instrument."

They exist, and can be purchased for a handsome price. Go to Woodwind Brasswind's site for example, and search it for "tuning bell". __ Just plain Bill (talk) 00:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds interesting. But it also seems like it isn't a standard part of the trumpet, so I think it shouldn't be included in the article. After all, there are all sorts of little tinkerings that trumpet builders have made over the years that haven't caught on (if I recall correctly, mouthpieces are the most common culprits). Also, I can't help feeling like this comes off a bit like an advertisement for Schilke trumpets. I'll delete this part in a week or so if nobody objects. Squandermania (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I do object. What is a "standard" trumpet? For example, does this hypothetical item have top- or bottom-spring valves? Does it have a third valve trigger? How many spit valves? I'd like to see what someone has to say, who has seen or perhaps played one with a tunable bell, or at least has a better sense of where they fit in the scheme of things. I don't mind seeing its inventor mentioned; this doesn't cross my threshold for commercial promotion. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 18:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What does make sense, IMO, is condensing a lot of the Schilke-related bell text in the next paragraph, which takes up a bit more space than it needs. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 18:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I own a Schilke Eb with a tunable bell. It also has 4 valves. Neither is part of the standard trumpet. Also, the way this is written, it makes it appear as though the sliding bell replaces the tuning slide. It doesn't. You have both options. It doesn't quite strike me as an ad for Schilke, but given the scope of the article, it does seem like an inappropriately lengthy diversion onto a relatively minor variation on the standard trumpet.Trumpetrep (talk) 04:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just did some rearranging and trimming, with a couple of refs added. diff Better? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 09:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
yep207.138.93.254 (talk) 21:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)(Sorry, that was me. Just wasn't signed in)Trumpetrep (talk) 00:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the 2nd reference to Schilke (from you Just plain Bill?). In a 500-word summary of the manufacture history of a 3000-year old instrument, there was far too much emphasis on one manufacturer. You could just as easily justify similar emphasis on David Monette, if you were so inclined. It would be great to have a separate article on the subject much like "Innovations in the piano". Trumpetrep (talk) 00:22, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was not comfortable with the style of that bell paragraph anyway, let alone the content. Expert volunteers needed... __ Just plain Bill (talk) 04:12, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Third valve slide on Bb trumpets (and other valve slides)

I think that it would be useful to describe the use of the other valve tuning slides on Bb trumpets (I don't know anything about other trumpets). Particularly I was thinking about the third valve slide, which is (I think) extended as a means of flattening Db and Gb played on all three valves, which otherwise sound sharp. The problem is that I don't have much idea of why this is the case. I'm even less clear on the use of the other slides on the first and second valves.Jimjamjak (talk) 15:59, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at Brass_instrument#Valve_tuning_compensation __ Just plain Bill (talk) 16:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's very useful. No need for duplication here, then. Thanks very much!Jimjamjak (talk) 17:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Noises

I can't understand the following sentence in the section on playing techniques: "Noises sound a 1/2 step higher than they are notated, and often require amplification to be heard." Anyone willing to explain further or provide a reference? Jimjamjak (talk) 08:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, but have added a {{citation needed}} tag to it. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 21:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Noises produced on the trumpet by blowing into it don't sound at pitch. If you finger a B and hiss through the instrument, it will sound as a C. I'll find a citation.Trumpetrep (talk) 01:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Valve preference

I suppose it's just a coincidence that on Mezzo TV the jazzmen are all using piston valves and the classical musicians rotary ones? Rothorpe (talk) 22:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rotary valves are used a lot by European orchestras. That's where you will most often see them. In American orchestras, the standard piston valves are preferred. Although, a lot of orchestras pull out the rotary instruments to play things like Mahler.Trumpetrep (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have only just seen this - thanks! Rothorpe (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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High F trumpets in (French) romantic and impressionist music?

Did they really ever use high F trumpets as regular instruments or was this always a notation convention? (In Debussy's 1905 "La Mer", for example, we have trumpets notated in high F, alongside cornets in B flat) -- megA (talk) 14:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quelle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F579470778