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• different license
• different development team and different main sponsors
• different version control system
• different gouvernance
• different name and trademark (even dropping the .org)

essentially the only thing AOO and OOo share is the codebase, but so do OOo and LibreOffice, OOo and Symphony, OOo and go-oo. AOO is no different from other follow-up projects. 84.46.78.210 (talk) 10:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• "different development team and different main sponsors" - really? It's still IBM and Oracle.
  • IBM didnt contribute to OOo in a relevant way. The main sponsor was Sun/Oracles team in Hamburg and that was dissolved. IBM hired at most half a dozen of those back, but none of the old infrastructure or organizational stucture remained. --84.46.78.210 (talk) 13:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• "different name and trademark" - happened before, too
• "different version control system" - some "uninteresting" internal stuff, not very special for the end user.
• "different gouvernance" - see above

My remarks from the RM !vote above still stand: there is still no major release by Apache. At the moment there were only minor tweaks and IP clearance. mabdul 10:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• If that is the case, the article should focus on the historic OOo project, not the current AOO one, which then is only a sidenote on this topic. --84.46.78.210 (talk) 13:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest to either

• move the current page to Apache OpenOffice or
• move the current page to OpenOffice.org and create a new page Apache OpenOffice. The Lemma OpenOffice should be a disambiguation page to OpenOffice.org, Apache OpenOffice, LibreOffice, et al. ;-) Echinacin35 (talk) 22:02, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Let's leave it until AOO 4.0 and see if there's enough material from that to meaningfully separate it out - at present I'm not sure that's the most helpful thing for the reader, but it strikes me as a good idea if there's enough for a standalone article - David Gerard (talk) 22:27, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest rename this article to Apache OpenOffice, cause OpenOffice has been rebranded to Apache OpenOffice.--Rezonansowy (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See "Requested move" section above. tl;dr The other suggestion is to make a separate article for AOO and for the old OOo, which is how nl:wp does it. Either way, there's no rush and we can wait until AOO 4.0 (the first version with significant new work) is out properly and discuss it then - David Gerard (talk) 08:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the numbers in the "market share" section have become extremely dated. They are dated almost to the point where I wonder if the section has any meaning. I won't be able to update this section, or would even know how to get better data, so adding a request to update this section. It is a fairly important topic, as a google search for "openoffice market share" brings this page to the top of the results, with a "Jump to Market share" link directly to that section. Removing all data prior to 2010 may be sufficient for a quick fix. Jeffhoy (talk) 13:31, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They're relevant for the history (and would be good to have around if/when the article is split up per above) - David Gerard (talk) 15:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Last 90 days. Why the trough in April and May? (Similar trough for LibreOffice, though not nearly as pronounced. I see LibreOffice gets similar page view rates to this page, and so could probably do with a similar severe editorial cleanup.) - David Gerard (talk) 09:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And your point is? --KAMiKAZOW (talk) 11:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That I was wondering how many readers the article typically has, and was wondering at the strange drop in interest - David Gerard (talk) 13:18, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Basically I've been reading back through the last three or four years of a large pile of IT news sites that occasionally do actual journalism, in English and German (since SO/OOo was a German project, and LO is too). I think I hit everything that could reasonably be called a WP:RS on the subject of OpenOffice. I should list some potentially-interesting sources that don't quite fit into the present article ... I'll do that later. In the meantime, does anything appear seriously questionable or uncited at this stage? - David Gerard (talk) 21:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can securely remove the phrases that OpenOffice is "moribund". This may have been reported in some media but such reports aren't necessarily true. After all, version 4.0.0 was released just this morning! And who says that the major effort was moved to LibreOffice? --Maxl (talk) 08:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For a comparison of commit statistics look here https://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?project_0=Apache+OpenOffice&project_1=LibreOffice under "12 Month" and "30 day" statistics. (Yes, the AOO stats are included in the LO stats, so feel free to subtract as appropriate.) 217.71.246.7 (talk) 09:32, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So does the dictionary now define "moribund" as "having fewer commits than LibreOffice"? +1 to using common definitions of English words. OpenOffice is releasing new versions, community is growing. We have a NPOV issue here. 50.138.228.216 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:23, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I should say that's the case. First, in the list posted by the IP the contributions of OpenOffice are only listed from 2 years ago while OpenOffice has existed since 2002 (11 years). On the other hand the list says contributions to LibreOffice started almost 13 years ago when the first version of LibreOffice was released only 2 years ago! And then, if you look at the bottom of the list you'll see that OpenOffice contributed more than 3 times the amount of code lines than LibreOffice did. The OpenOffice people do the basic work. LibreOffice is simply a branch of OpenOffice. They do some polishing or whatsoever, do their own user interface and their own icons. I don't say LibreOffice is bad. Of course it isn't. My point is that the list from which that line in the article is derived is partly misleading and has partly been misinterpreted. By the way, does anyone have a special interest to dub OpenOffice moribund (maybe in order to weaken competition), or why has this line been posted in the article, and then at such a prominent place? I think that line is clearly POV despite the unusual number of citations. --Maxl (talk) 10:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"The OpenOffice people do the basic work. LibreOffice is simply a branch of OpenOffice." This is a common IBM-originated marketing point for AOO, but is not borne out by the numbers; LO 4.1 release notes note ~13% of commits between LO 4.0 and LO 4.1 coming from @apache.org, not anything like most of it. (I would guess LO noted this to quell this specific false claim.) I recall a previous IP tried to add this claim as well. I'm also quite unconvinced that "oh they finally got a release out" suddenly means it's bursting with life; note that the date slipped about six months. But 4.0.0 is out, let's see what the press verdict resolves as - David Gerard (talk) 12:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What LibreOffice claims about itself is irrelevant to the claim that OpenOffice is moribund. By the same standard that is applied on Wikipiedia to any other open source product (or commercial software product for that matter) do we call something moribund when it has worked steadily toward a release, released the software, booked 50 million downloads in the last year, and has a development mailing list with over 1000 posts per month. If "moribund" is used to describe such a project it is an idiosyncratic use of the word that is pushing a POV. 50.138.228.216 (talk)

Document Foundation is LibreOffice. Therefore we can safely assume that the text you linked, @ David, is biased towards LibreOffice. Whereas there may have been more contributions from Document Foundation, the figures from the list mentioned above still state that OpenOffice committed at least 3 times as much code lines as LibreOffice. If there are fewer contributions from OpenOffice people the average contribution from these is obviously much larger than that from LibreOffice contributors. The number of contributions is not all there is. The size also counts. Also, I believe the reason for the prolonged product cycle OpenOffice had was the way Oracle dealt with some people involved in OpenOffice which you can read in the article. First, after they had bought Sun Microsystems and, with it, the OpenOffice project, they "purged" the team (in fact, they seem to have kicked out a lot of people with independent minds) and, thus, in fact forced the creation of the Document Foundation as an independent body. And then they handed the whole project to Apache foundation. So not much could happen for quite a while during the double transition. This double transition from Sun Microsystems to Oracle to Apache along with Oracle's less than helpful handling of matters may be a major reason for a (temporary) drop in contributions to OpenOffice. That's, however, no reason to call the whole project "moribund". And I don't think there is any need to wait for a "press verdict". I believe the matter is quite clear. --Maxl (talk) 13:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I've removed. Even if the statement was ever accurate in the past (highly debatable) it clearly is not given today's release. If substantiated by any new reliable source, written in light of current status, then we can reconsider. 50.138.228.216 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! But don't forget to sign your contributions on the discussion page! :) --Maxl (talk) 14:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Restored well-referenced statements - David Gerard (talk) 15:12, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You obviously don't read what people write here! --Maxl (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since Ohloh was brought up earlier in an irrelevant way, I'd suggest using it in a relevant way. They rate open source projects with respect to activity level, looking at commits, number of contributors, files changed, lines added, etc. They rate OpenOffice as having "Very High Activity". I think we need to look at the removed passage like a claim that a certain volcano is dormant. The fact that the volcano erupts today invalidates the claim that it is dormant, no matter how many sources you had yesterday claiming it was dormant. New facts trump old sources in that case. 50.138.228.216 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I was referring to Ohloh only in response to the statement about development effort being moved to LO, i.e. in a very relevant way, namely showing that there is much more development going on in LibreOffice as measured by lines of code and commits in the last 12 months (I specifically mentioned 12/1 month stats as the overall ones are skewed for obvious reasons). The ohloh statistic simply show that LO has (1) More committers ("larger community") and (2) More contributions (commits and LOC). Finally in the 12 month stats AOO is shown as having "decreasing" commits, and looking at the following page you will see number of commits and number of committers in AOO is decreasing https://www.ohloh.net/p/openoffice . I haven't and won't comment on the "moribund" description as that isn't something I am qualified to judge on given the commit statistics -- I'm not sure why you're seeing this as an attack when I am simply linking to statistics to demonstrate the statement that "development effort has moved to LO". 217.71.246.7 (talk) 07:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth noting that AOO artificially inflated their Ohloh stats by adding website changes to what gets listed there; LO only lists code commits. AOO's are still on a notable decline. The Black Knight can shout "I'm not dead yet!" but third-party observers still note the absence of three limbs - David Gerard (talk) 07:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's also worth noting that you don't seem to have any proof for your above statemenmt. AND it is worth noting that you still choose to ignore what people are writing in this discussion. --Maxl (talk) 07:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]