As in this edit to 25th Legislative District (New Jersey), you have removed existing sources and replaced with different ones, some of which contain less complete information than the sources already provided. You also provided no explanation in the edit summary to explain your edits. Please use the edit summary in the future. Any explanation of your changes on this talk page or on my talk page would be helpful in understanding the logic behind your edits. Alansohn (talk) 15:52, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Interstate 195 (New Jersey), without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Thank you. Tinton5 (talk) 21:16, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to change cited references for Leanna Brown since they had better, more recent, and more complete information than current cited Record article. My changes have been undone even after I indicated the reasons for these changes. I then provided a full explanation for these changes in the talk section. I have not received any response as to why these changes cannot be made in order to improve available information about Leanna Brown.

Please advise if you agree with my proposed changes. I would like to replace the cited Record article with 2 references that have better, more recent, and more complete information.

If you do not agree with the proposed changes, please explain why.Wondering55 (talk) 06:33, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In looking through your edits, there seems to be a rather strong focus on deleting references sourced from The Record. In some cases, the sources are different, in some cases they're more recent, but in far too many cases the replacement sources are less complete and less reliable than the original material. Wherever possible, I have tried to retain all of the relevant sources to the best of my ability and as reasonable, including the sources you have added, and I will review some of the other removals to see if the material can be reinserted into the article. Can you explain why you have been systematically removing sources from The Record and edit warring with those who have tried to reinsert those sources? Alansohn (talk) 14:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alansohn, All of the replacement referenced sources are more complete, more up-to-date, and more accurate and they are also reliable.

Since you seem to disagree with this statement, please provide specific details that contradicts this statement in regards to the Chatham Borough article.

You seemed to be focused on an unsubstantiated charge of edit warring rather than looking at the bigger picture to see if my cited replacement references improve the Chatham Borough and other articles. One other minor benefit of my cited references is that they are accessible to anyone. The Record cited reference in the Chatham Borough article is accessible on a regular basis if you have a paid subscription to that source. When somebody replaces something with better, more up-to-date, more accurate, more complete information, their efforts should be welcomed and not reprimanded since it is not edit warring. Wondering55 (talk) 15:11, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alansohn, Thanks for your response to my original comments that I saw on my Talk page.

I apologize since I am a Wikipedia novice and am trying to work with anyone who has any concerns about my editing efforts. I hope that we can work together to improve Wikipedia articles and cited references.

Rather than continuing to go back and forth with responses, I would hope that you would accept that my changes are made in good faith. I believe I have responded with sufficient details and reasons that show my changes are made in good faith and they should be accepted in accordance with Wikipedia's policy about allowed changes. Thanks for your consideration. I look forward to your response about accepting my changes.Wondering55 (talk) 15:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through every one of your edits to date and every single edit to an article removed a source from The Record (Bergen County), specifically ones written by John Cichowski. Whether it was a highway-related article or one about a high school, or a legislative district or a politician, every edit removed a source by Cichowski in The Record and replaced it. Some of the sources are better or more recent, but many of the sources are from user-updated content or material from websites and publications with questionable reliability. If you feel that the sources from The Record are out-of-date or that the articles would benefit from other sources, I suggest adding to the existing references as in many cases the articles are worse off with the sources you've removed. It does seem rather strange to me that this removing sources by John Cichowski in The Record is what you'd be doing on a systematic basis, and I'm wondering why. You seem rather knowledgeable about Wikipedia for a brand new editor. Have you edited before using another ID or IP address, as it might help to gain a broader picture of your edit history. Any explanation would help understand what's going on here, which I think you might realize appears rather odd.

Alansohn, You continue to make unsubstantiated charges about me and my cited references without any supporting details, as I have requested. So far, you have not provided any supporting details to question the specifics of any information that I cited.

I would hope that we can work together without having to ask for a dispute resolution with you.

I am a brand new editor and have NEVER edited under another ID or IP address. I believe I have adequately addressed all of your concerns.

Most of my cited references are from previous sources that have been accepted without question in Wikipedia articles that were written before I even started using Wikipedia, from official sources, or other news articles, which had more accurate information, which I cross checked with other sources.

Let me remind you that Wikipedia's policy for long time users in responding to new editors is 1. Be polite, and welcoming to new users 2. Assume good faith 3. Avoid personal attacks

I'm not sure whether you are adhering to these policies in your responses to me.

I also find it rather odd you are spending so much time on doing a comprehensive investigation of all my posts to try and denigrate my efforts. You are the only person on Wikipedia that has carried on this repeated negative campaign against me in response to my posts.

I have explained myself to one other person, who had questions, since I am a relative novice and did not know that changing cited references with better, more accurate references and correcting minor details would require me to provide so much supporting details.

The Record is not a completely reliable source since it only reports what it may find out, which may or may not necessarily be the latest or most accurate information. I suggest you check out the Eye on the Record blog on the Internet that points out many mistakes and lack of reliability in The Record reporting.

The cited reference sources, which I provided in the Chatham borough article, have more up-to-date and more complete information than the original Record article. In fact, you have kept them in as cited references so you must believe they are satisfactory.

In my experience, the proper thing to do when preparing reports and finding a more complete reference that also has updated details that supersedes the details of the old cited reference is to remove the old reference and replace it with the new reference. Keeping in the old cited reference confuses people with information that has been superseded and wastes peoples time in trying to verify that old information, which is superseded by the new references.

In addition, if I had a choice of putting in a reference, which would require someone to pay money to read, vs. a reference that is free; publicly available; and superscedes the other reference, I would include the publicly available reference and NOT the other reference.

The proper thing to do with the Chatham Borough article is to keep my 2 new cited references, which are publicly accessible which you have done, and remove the old outdated reference, which is normally only available through a paid subscription.

I have provided sufficient reasons and details for this change. Let us agree to make the change and move on to better opportunities. Wondering55 (talk) 18:31, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alansohn (talk) 17:08, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By definition, newspaper's gather material from their sources, and like all newspapers, The Record makes mistakes. I subscribe to The Record and read it every day and I agree that there are errors, but I also see mistakes all too often in The New York Times and The Star-Ledger. I had never heard of Eye on the Record, and when I took a look, lo and behold, there was an extensive criticism in the current post of Road Warrior John Cichowski, noting how he "shamelessly plugs [a] limo service by name" in a recent piece and goes to describe him as "the supremely lazy Cichowski" before moving on to an extensive quotation from an email sent to the paper by a "concerned reader" criticizing Cichowski's reporting. I have no connection to The Record, other than as a subscriber, and I have no bias for or against it. Please understand how strange it seems that you appear to have some sort of issue with The Record in general and Road Warrior John Cichowski in particular, as evidenced by the fact that you have made no update to an article that did not involve removing a source that had appeared in The Record and that had been written by John Cichowski, whether in his role as the paper's Road Warrior or in general reporting. I agree that some of your edits are productive, but this lack of neutrality regarding the paper and its reporter is a matter of concern. Your contributions are more than welcome, but excessive negative focus on one newspaper and one report appears both unjustified and inappropriate. Alansohn (talk) 18:58, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alansohn, As Ronald Reagan used to say, "There you go again."

You continue to go and question my intentions and my neutrality without any substantiation.

You continue to go and ignore my requests for specific details that contradict anything that I have stated.

You continue to go and ignore good editing practice, which is not to keep adding everything that is put into an article when streamlining it with better and more accurate info is the correct practice.

If multiple articles from a source have multiple mistakes or outdated info, removing them and replacing them with better sources is NOT a lack of neutrality, but an adherence to common sense and ethics and reputable investigation.

I also subscribe to The Record so that is the source that I start with when checking information. I then compare it to other official sources and news reports to see if the information is accurate or inaccurate. That does not demonstrate any lack of neutrality.

I do not have time or interest to investigate every single item in a Wikipedia article and all of the multiple sources.

In my Wikipedia reviews and edits of articles, I have also checked out other Record articles, which correctly referenced the cited information, so I have not removed them.

In the future, I would not remove articles without a substantiated reason that I would put in the Edit Summary.

You seemed to be oddly focused on preventing me from making needed changes based on unsubstantiated reasons.

I am concerned that you will pass along your biased concerns about me to others.

Unless you rescind your unsubstantiated published concerns about me, I will ask for a dispute resolution with you. This is not what I expected when I started making changes in Wikipedia in good faith.

Why would you continue to cite Record articles in Wikipedia that have mistakes or outdated info when there are better, more accurate references? That is a question that I will raise if this matter goes to dispute resolution with you.

Let us agree to make the change to remove the cited Record article, which will be superseded by the 2 articles that you have already agreed to, and move on to better opportunities.

I would appreciate if you would also agree that based on my responses, I have made all of my changes based on good faith, common sense, and proper investigations, and have not demonstrated any bias or lack of neutrality. Thanks for your considerationWondering55 (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Let's use the article for Chatham Borough, New Jersey as an example, where the issue is a source for Leanna Brown. All that's necessary is to show that she lives / lived in Chatham Borough. The source that had been in the article -- "MORRIS VOTERS REELECT 3 GOP LEGISLATORS", written by John Cichowski in The Record (Bergen County) -- states that "Brown of Chatham Borough led Democrat Drew Britcher of Parsippany-Troy Hills, 27,381 to 7,563 to win her third term.", which would seem to address the issue, over and done with. The first source you added -- "Trailblazer Leanna Brown Honored by Chatham GOP", by Cara Townsend in TheAlternativePress.com -- states that "Longtime Chatham resident Leanna Brown had many firsts in politics. She was the first woman to serve on the Borough Council, the first woman to win a seat in the New Jersey Assembly, and the first woman elected to the State Senate." which covers the point but no better than the source from The Record. The other source -- “Our Campaigns – Senate 26th Legislative District – History” at OurCampaigns.com -- is quoted as saying that "Republican Leanna Brown of Chatham Borough defeated Democrat Drew Britcher by 34,063 to 9,514 votes to win her third Senate term." The problems are that OurCampaigns.com is user updated and doesn't include the sentence shown here anywhere on that page or on the entire website. Nor does the OurCampaigns page for Leanna Brown pin her down to Chatham Borough, as it provides an address in the Chatham ZIP code. I'm unsure what was wrong with the source for Leanna Brown in Chatham Borough, New Jersey from The Record and maybe if you could explain why it should be removed there we might be able to achieve some sort of understanding. I would also appreciate any explanation of why every reference sourced by an article written by John Cichowski should be removed? Alansohn (talk) 20:30, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alansohn, Let's answer you point-by-point on the required relevant citation source(s) for Leanna Brown in the Chatham Borough article.

It is not correct that "All that's necessary is to show that she lives / lived in Chatham Borough." in the cited reference. If that were the case, you could simply put in a Whitepages.com, Zabasearch.com, or other irrelevant reference for many of the cited people.

It is primarily necessary to show HOW any listed person was/is actually a "NOTABLE" person AND also lives or lived in Chatham Borough.

In reviewing the cited Record article, the issue was NOT "over and done with" since every cited reference that I originally accessed in this article had an extensive profile over a notable portion of that person's lifetime, except for The Record cited reference for Leanna Brown that mentioned she won a third term as NJ state senator in 1991. I found the AlternativePress.com article that had an extensive lifetime profile of Leanna Brown of Chatham Borough that also included her 3 terms as senator, plus extensive info about significant accomplishments in her life before & after.

I disagree with your contention about any supposed equality between the 2 cited articles since the presented facts in The AlternativePress article clearly covers BOTH points (1. What are their notable accomplishments? 2. Do they live in Chatham Borough?) much better than the source from The Record.

Based on comparing the clearly more extensive lifetime information about Leanna Brown in the AlternativePress.com article, which is fully publicly accessible, vs. the much more limited information in the cited Record article, which only has a shortened version of the article, it was clear that the AlternativePress.com article was better as a cited reference for Leanna Brown. So I replaced The Record article with the Alternativepress.com article and with Our Campaign website with a brief explanation for why I used these sources, which have more complete and more up-to-date info than The Record article.

There is nothing wrong with “Our Campaigns – Senate 26th Legislative District – History” at OurCampaigns.com, as noted below.

1. You had a problem that the site was quoted as saying that "Republican Leanna Brown of Chatham Borough defeated Democrat Drew Britcher by 34,063 to 9,514 votes to win her third Senate term." and indicated the problems are that OurCampaigns.com is user updated and doesn't include the sentence shown here anywhere on that page or on the entire website.

The intent of my personally inserted quote for the cited reference was to summarize the actual posted facts on the Our Campaigns site, which showed 1) Leanna Brown was a Republican. 2) She defeated Democrat Drew Britcher by 34,063 to 9,514 votes. 3)It was her 3rd term as State senator. 4) She lived in Chatham Borough based on her listed Chatham street address.

The OurCampaigns page for Leanna Brown CLEARLY pinned her down to Chatham Borough, as it provides her street address, which is clearly in Chatham Borough.

Any problems with the Our Campaigns citation can be over how I presented the Our Campaigns site information in the cited reference rather than the actual relevant facts on that site, which updated what was presented in the cited Record article. I would be more than happy for you to change the way the Our Campaigns site citation is presented.

As I have explained, the reasons should be clear by now that the AlternativePress.com cited reference should replace The Record cited reference because it provided an extensively more complete profile of her notable accomplishments similar to the way other cited references, which I originally checked, did for some of the other notable people that I checked, while also indicating more details on how she lived in Chatham Borough.

I also believe the Our Campaigns site provides additional and more complete information, which is publicly accessible, than the shortened version of the Record article about each of the 3 senate elections that Leanna Brown won and exactly where she lived in Chatham Borough. This cited reference should supersede The Record article. If you want to edit how the cited reference is presented, please feel free to do so.

I want to avoid the practice of simply adding more and more info to an article without consideration to deleting outdated, incomplete info that is superseded & became superfluous.

Any other cited articles by John Cichowski that I removed in other Wikipedia articles were replaced for the very same basic valid reasons. Replacement citations had better, more complete, more accurate, more relevant, or more up-to-date info that superseded the cited article by John Cichowski.

Let us agree to make the change to remove the cited outdated Record article, which will be superseded by the 2 articles that you have already agreed to, and move on to better opportunities.

I hope that you will respect my intentions, my integrity, and my contributions. So far, everyone else has.

I would appreciate if you would also agree that based on my responses, I have made all of my changes based on good faith, common sense, and proper investigations, and have not demonstrated any bias or lack of neutrality. Thanks for your consideration.Wondering55 (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Wondering55. You have new messages at Imzadi1979's talk page.
Message added 00:01, 2 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

Imzadi 1979 → 00:01, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Please convince the community that your issue with John Cichowski is legitimate, as I don't see any validity to your claims. Alansohn (talk) 05:17, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. It's come to my attention that you have been systematically removing citations to a certain newspaper. This violates our neutral point of view policy, and is clearly against the purpose of creating an encyclopedia. As that is all that you have edited so far, it is clear that you are only here to further an agenda. That makes you a single-purpose account and is grounds for indefinite blocking.

I don't know whether certain aspects of the paper are reliable or not (and frankly, I could care less), but a wholesale removal of all citations to that source because you hate it is not acceptable, and if it continues, you will be blocked indefinitely. --Rschen7754 08:09, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That board has a specific format and no matter how you file it, you won't be able to provide the 4 diffs needed to make the case because they don't exist; I advise you to go to WP:ANI and give your response there. thanks. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:33, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you even read what other people have to say? There really is no using posting another block of text that reads like some courtroom defense cooked up by 10 lawyers... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:14, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Wondering55. You have new messages at Seb az86556's talk page.
Message added 02:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.[reply]

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to encourage you to read WP:BRD very closely: you added some text to an article, it was reverted, you may never reinsert it without first gaining new consensus to do so on the article talkpage. You are not permitted to re-insert it and then start a discussion. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:25, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

BWilkins I would like to tell you that Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ has previously threatened me, without any justification, that action would be taken against me and that I would not be allowed to participate in Wikipedia.

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ has also previously made denigrating comments about issues that I have raised.

This widespread harassment and unethical behavior by Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ is unacceptable.

Unfortunately, Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ has now engaged in unethical, wide spread deletions of ALL revisions that I have made recently to over 15 articles.

Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ has NOT provided a single explanation for any Undoing of my revisions to any of these article.

I have opened up Talk pages for 3 of these articles, Route 55 (New Jersey), Reversible Lane, and International High School (New Jersey.

I have notified Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ that they need to provide explanations on why they have undone my changes for the 3 articles noted above in the Talk pages that I have opened up.

Instead of responding to me on the Talk pages that I opened up for these 3 articles, Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ has arranged to Undo all of my changes on the 3 pages and has NOT responded to any issues that I raised on the 3 talk pages on the 3 cited articles.

I will bring this unacceptable behavior by Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ up for dispute resolution and stopping this harassment and unacceptable behavior.

I have checked your Wikipedia sources and there is nothing on there that explains or justified this wholesale attack against me by Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ or that contradicts any reasons for allowing the changes that I made.

You may not have realized what was going on when you assisted Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ so I am giving you the benefit of doubt that you would not tolerate this behavior by Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ.

If you have any suggestion on how to resolve this matter with Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ in an amicable constructive manner, please let me know.

I do not want to waste your time or my time. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ seems intent on wasting my time.

It should be Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ that needs to take the time to explain to everyone this strange behavior, which I find to be unacceptable, unethical and harassing to me. So far, Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ has been unwilling to do that and has wasted my time in addressing these unacceptable actions.Wondering55 (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see where Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ finally responded to me with a comment on the Route 55 (New Jersey) site. Unfortunately, it is an incomplete response for reverting all of my changes in over 15 articles. I have asked Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 haneʼ to provide further explanations for what I consider unacceptable behavior. I will wait to hear back for a response.

In the meantime, if you can provide any guidance on my trying to work with Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 and Alansohn about all of the changes that I have made in over 15 articles and which have been Undone, since both of them have made publicly denigrating comments about me and have threatened to have me removed from Wikipedia, even though I have acted with transparency and integrity.Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 has also contacted another Wikipedia user today and made misleading deceptive claims about my actions that I had to spend time and address. I am a novice user, who just started to make contributions to Wikipedia. Thanks for any advice.Wondering55 (talk) 02:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Seb_az86556 has asked you not to post on their talk page, but less than two hours later you posted this. I realise it's less convenient, but please respect the editor's request for you not to post there; you can perfectly well use article talk pages instead. In this case I see that you have posted both on the article talk page and on the editor's talk page; the latter is then certainly superfluous. You can certainly assume that anything posted on the talk page of an article you are both working on will be seen by the other editor. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 23:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen any notice by User:Seb_az86556 for this request, but I will certainly honor it.

It is kind of strange that I saw your request about User:Seb_az86556's supposed request, but I never saw the original request from User:Seb_az86556, even when I checked my Talk page.

I hope that you also realize that I was busy with making revisions and opening Talk pages on various articles and that I did not check my Talk page for a while today. User:Seb_az86556 could easily have made a request on the 3 article Talk pages on the articles that I set up for a response by User:Seb_az86556.

My guess is that User:Seb_az86556 is being deliberately deceptive and is trying to create a misleading false perception of me with as many Wikipedia users about my actions on Wikipedia so that User:Seb_az86556 can try to have me removed from Wikipedia.

User:Seb_az86556 has already engaged another Wikipedia user today in trying to create a misleading false impression without directly contacting me about the issues that they also raised with me.

User:Seb_az86556 has also previously threatened me with removal from Wikipedia without justification and has made denigrating comments about me. Wondering55 (talk) 01:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, Seb's request was in the edit summary for this edit. I understand that it wasn't highly visible but now that you're aware of it, thank you for agreeing not to post further on Seb's talk page. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 08:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response. The link that you provided referenced a series of communications that I had with Seb on a completely different topic. Seb's communication in that link did NOT indicate anything about not posting communications on his Talk page. It simply indicated that Seb wanted that previous topic to be closed.

The communications in the link you provided were prior to my opening up a new series of communication based on opening up 3 Talk pages for 3 different articles. I still have not seen Seb's request to stop communications on his Talk page about issues that I initiated on the Talk page for the the cited articles.

As I previously stated, I have not seen any notice by User:Seb_az86556 for this request, but I will certainly honor it since you brought it to my attention. Let us consider this issue closed for now since I am now complying with Seb's wishes.Wondering55 (talk)

The diff I posted above from Seb has the following edit summary, which you will see if you follow the link: "Reverted 4 edits by Wondering55 (talk): Not welcome here; future posts=vandalism. use article talkpages." Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 15:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen your link. I cannot make it any clearer that until you provided this link, I did NOT see or receive any notice by Seb for this request. Seb's remarks clearly indicate a lack of civility and understanding of my efforts. I cannot find this request anywhere on Seb's page or on my page. To try and equate my efforts to be helpful and try to engage Seb in a discussion with Seb's unsubstantiated charge of vandalism does nothing for Seb's credibility. To tell a user they are Not Welcome without any provocation is a motto that Seb should be reprimanded for.

I will await Seb's responses to requests that I made on various article Talk pages.Wondering55 (talk) 02:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wondering55, I've been here a while, and there isn't much I haven't seen, so please understand when I say that I've seen this before. I think you have a different idea about what Wikipedia is than the community itself does. That is fine, it takes time to get a feel for the place, and no matter how much you read around here, it still takes time to tell the difference between the theory about how Wikipedia works, and the practical realities of how it works. First and foremost, we are a community and we try to act in unison as much as practical. This means when we disagree on an edit, we discuss it. We don't just slam our version back into an article after it has been reverted. Editing by force just gets you blocked around here. The community aspect is just as important as the facts when you are building an encyclopedia. I know that sounds odd, but it is true. We depend on each other, we need each other since no one person can do all the work. The greater community is more important that me, than Kim, than Bwilkins, you, or any single person. This means that we tread lightly when there is a dispute, even if the other person isn't treading so lightly.

There is a lot of jargon we use that might sound more harsh than it really is. It is due to the sheer volume of policy around here, so some of us old timers will sometimes speak a bit of shorthand, which can come across more brash than it is intended. While we try to not do that, you also have to get used to a little of it, and thicken up your skin if you want to work within a community like this. And being one of the new kids on the block, I strongly recommend treading a little lighter until you get up to speed on policy and just how we do things. This means you might not work as fast as you like for a few weeks, but speed isn't the goal, accuracy, verification and cooperation is. I'm working overtime, so I don't have the time to do so myself, but you might ask around for a mentor. Someone you can ask questions to, just for a few weeks. I've had mentors, and there are a few people whom I still consider mentors, and I'm an old guy that has been here for many years and an admin here. Mentors are a good thing, not a bad thing.

Anyway, I don't want to see you end up blocked, and I'm afraid if you move forward without getting a better idea of what we are and how we do things, that might be the end result. Not everyone adjusts to the methods here quickly, and it certainly isn't related to intelligence, it is just all in what people are used to, and Wikipedia is a very different kind of community. Allow yourself the time to adjust and just tread lightly for a bit while you do, and hopefully everything will work out. A good place to ask for a mentor, or just ask questions about anything is the WP:Teahouse, a simple and low key place filled with people who enjoy helping others and answering questions. I strongly recommend regular visits and asking for a mentor there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:13, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your insights, which I will certainly take to heart.

However, from my perspective, it appears that Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 and Alansohn are simply gaming the system in their favor.

They are clearly blocking my efforts and definitely NOT making any attempt to work with me.

As I went back today to look at only 3 articles, Route 55 (New Jersey), Reversible Lane, and International High School in New Jersey, I began to see that most of my changes, which added value to these articles, had absolutely nothing to do with the previously cited Record article that I had originally deleted and which became an open topic of a sour discussion with Alansohn. Instead of going back to all of these articles and making a surgical correction to reinstate the cited Record article, they both conspired and took action to remove ALL of my changes in over 15 articles. I have opened up Talk pages today on the 3 cited pages and will wait for better responses from each of them.

This is is unacceptable behavior, even if I have a mentor. Any further insights would be welcomed. Wondering55 (talk) 02:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• There is no right answer here. They reverted you, wrong or right, the best thing is to start a dialog and not be defensive. Easier said than done, I appreciate this fact. You have a short history of questionable edits, which is going to give other editors a hair trigger when it comes to your edits. That is something you have to work past, and dialog is the vehicle to move past it. I didn't say it was fair, but nothing in life is, so we are best to play the hand we are dealt instead of trying to change the way others react. All I can recommend is to start a dialog, give them a reason to think their initial impression of you was erroneous by what you do now. Things like this have a way of blowing over if you allow them to. I'm not wanting to go in and nitpick each edit and determine who is wrong or right here, I'm just trying to offer you a way to move forward, with the understanding that we are all human. You've made mistakes, and if they have, well, then you have that in common. But sincere dialog that is focused on the merits rather than the emotions is the solution. There is no justice as Wikipedia is a good read, and a guiding principle for me, personally. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:39, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I removed your request for a Third Opinion because, there, too, you're caught in something of a Catch-22. All dispute resolution processes at Wikipedia require substantial talk page discussion before requesting DR. While I see you've attempted to get that started, both at the various articles listed in your DR request (with no response from Alansohn) and on Alansohn's talk page, all the discussion that has so far occurred has been about process, not about the substance of the edits you wish to make and just doesn't satisfy the DR requirements. My recommendation: Follow Dennis' advice and ask for help at the Teahouse. Let the good folks there help you evaluate the edits you wish to make. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's generally a bad idea to modify your own postings on a talk page in substantive ways. Typo corrections and formatting issues are fine, but renumbering the points in a discussion is not good, especially when someone has replied to your posting in reference to the original numbers. If you have further comments to make on my talk page, keep them concise and add them after the replies your initial posting has garnered already, thank you. Imzadi 1979 → 04:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I previously explained this issue on User talk:Imzadi1979 in "Removal of Revisions to Pulaski Skyway". As you are aware, this issue was resolved on your Talk page.

Please do NOT open "new" topics on my page that were addressed on your Talk page.

I have made substantial contributions to correcting, improving, and updating the Wikipedia page for Pulaski Skyway based on substantiated facts. You should acknowledge my contributions.

I am concerned you are not demonstrating proper etiquette since:

- Your "concise" responses many times are longer than my follow-up requests that you claim are not "concise". I try to be concise. I am most interested in substance & validation of issues.

- You repeatedly do not provide answers to each of my valid follow-up requests. You repeatedly respond to some or ignore all of them.

- Your opinions contradict the facts and Wikipedia practice for verification. One may be entitled to their own opinion, they are NOT entitled to their own facts, incl. your opinion that:

Differences in number of spans for the correct 118 vs. the outdated 108 may have been a typo rather than a conflict in sources. It is simply not borne out by the facts and history of changes on the Pulaski Skyway. You chose to ignore those facts and those changes.

- You made wholesale reversions to one of my revisions, which contained seven changes, that created extra work for both you and me. You finally decided to allow some changes and ignored my requests about two others.

- You chose to go rogue by not participating in a Wikipedia NRHP team discussion about use of citations that I developed and then decided to change my citation that was added by an NRHP team member, who added it based on those discussions, to Pulaski Skyway. Whether the change is justified or not, you need to honor the Wikipedia practice of working with the NRHP Talk page team and not doing things on your own.

- You seem to be more interested in reversing my changes based on opinions and simply ignoring facts, which you may not be aware of at the time you Undo, that justify those changes.

I would appreciate if you did not make wholesale reversions if I make multiple changes without addressing the issues of substance with me. You can still make changes to formatting, typos, grammatical mistakes, Wikipedia article protocol, etc.

I was hoping that we can work together since you have a lot of Wikipedia experience that I am learning from as we interact. I hope that we can rekindle the spirit of cooperation when you first welcomed me. I want to maintain quality and accuracy of Wikipedia articles that I edit.67.84.207.66 (talk) 20:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you are wondering why Dough4872 has not responded to your messages, it is because you posted them on Talk:Dough4872 not User talk:Dough4872. I have copied them across. JohnCD (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you John. I will try to pay your act of kindness forward.Wondering55 (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Rschen7754 08:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Wondering55. I've had a look through your contributions and talk page discussions, and I see two problems. The first is your replies tend to be rather long-winded and rambling, which makes it difficult for people to easily understand your issues. I think this is what is frustrating people. It helps in discussions if you get straight to the point and explain what the problem is with the content, ideally with diffs if you know how to use them.

Second, can I also recommend the option of mentoring, and possibly looking at a different topic to edit. You can either add {{subst:dated adoptme}} to the top of this talk page, or you can have a look at Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user/Adoptee's Area/Adopters and pick someone to give you a hand. I think we'll need to do something soon, because as things currently stand, there's a proposal to block you from Wikipedia, so it's worth trying to circumvent this if at all possible. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]