what is mutilion all about?

If we wish to take the view that the term "mutilation" is pejorative rather than simply descriptive, a lot more than circumcision will have to be removed from this article. Any tribal practice of body modification, for example, could not be considered mutilation because as a pejorative it is POV. Female genital cutting would also have to be removed, and so on. I would propose that we stick to the descriptive form "excision of functional tissue" and that the language of the article be edited to reflect that. Tomyumgoong 01:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately we are not in a position to redefine the English language. Though they vary in the details, dictionary definitions invariably define mutilation as cosmetic or functional harm. If listing FGC, for example, is POV (and I have to agree), the answer is to remove it, not to make the article still worse by adding more POV.

My own view is that the article is little more than a dictionary definition plus some POV, and it would probably be best to delete it on those grounds. Jakew 11:08, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously any cosmetic statement is POV. What is the point of view in stating that removal of the foreskin also oblates the function of the foreskin? Tomyumgoong 11:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It presupposes that the foreskin has a function, and that the function of the penis is degraded following its removal. Jakew 12:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The functionality of the foreskin is not a hotly contested issue in the medical literature. You might contest that the penis is somehow better without its function, but that sounds like POV. Tomyumgoong 23:01, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The functionality, if any, of the foreskin is hardly a matter of established fact and widespread agreement, otherwise one would not see some authors describe it as a 'vestigial organ'. I would agree that stating or implying that the penis is better without the foreskin is POV, as is stating or implying that it is worse. Describing circumcision as mutilation does imply that it is worse, and thus violates WP:NPOV. Jakew 09:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The descriptions of "some authors" do not make the position that a body part is not functional established fact. Most authors, and all western pediatric associations respect the functionality of the foreskin in their discussion of circumcisison. Perhaps there is something to be gained in removing that function in some circumstances, as we see in the sole study of AIDS and circumcision in AIDS ridden africa. However, as the sole tissue in the penis with a concentration of the specialized sensory modalities it comprises, the tissue is functional. "Vestigial" is highly pov given modern scholarship. Tomyumgoong 07:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fact remains that there is not widespread agreement that the foreskin is not functional. Incidentally, there was not a 'sole study' but more than 40 studies, of many different types, the latest simply being a randomised controlled trial.

As a matter of fact, there is only one study supporting your argument, and that merely postulated that the foreskin is specialised sensory tissue. Last time I checked, there was a difference between theory and fact.

Regardless, Wikipedia prohibits original research, and arguments over whether circumcision is mutilation or not do not belong here. Our role is simply to report on what others have stated. Jakew 09:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article should make a distinction among willing body modification, as might happen by adults in various tribes, and unconsented mody modification such as neonatal circumcision and female genital cutting and the amputation of limbs by African warring parties. Both are broadly "mutilation" but have a distinct prominence. Tomyumgoong 08:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right then. It is a Point of View that any body part is vestigial. It is also incorrect to say that the foreskin lacks function, as it is mucosal. Moreover, the article already (over)states the fact that there is some oppositition to the idea that circumcision is mutilation. What is the problem? Tomyumgoong 21:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a point of view that it's vestigial. It's also a point of view that it has function, and it's a point of view that circumcision is mutilation. Hence, policy requires us to state none of these as fact, but simply to discuss the various points of view that others have raised in reliable sources. Jakew 21:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a point of view that the forekin is a mucosal covering of the glans which contains many (specialized) nerve endings. This is a biological fact. What is your problem with the wording in the version from which you are reverting? Tomyumgoong 21:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You may enjoy reading [[1]] Tomyumgoong 21:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I am quite familiar with that article. I'm puzzled, though, about why you suggest reading a bunch of contradictory statements. Jakew 09:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about mutilation, to the extent that it is anything more than a dictionary definition. A brief mention that some feel that circumcision (or ear-piercing, or tattoos) are mutilation is fine. Rewriting the article to center on the topic is POV pushing, in my opinion, and I think your edits are taking a big step in that direction. Nandesuka 21:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I simply placed female and male circumcision in the same context. Their differential treatment is POV. The article did not center on circumcision in its stable version before you removed the practice from the list of mutilating procedures. It has since been properly restored apparently by the community. You should carefully consider who is pushing POV here. Tomyumgoong 21:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, let's do that. Your edit combined female genital cutting and circumcision, implying that the people viewing the two as mutilation are the same. The example given for FGC, however, is Amnesty International, which explicitly voted to reject a 'male genital mutilation resolution'[2] (thus making the assertion that they regard both as mutilation false). Many other notable organisations, including the WHO and UN, describe FGC as mutilation but do not describe circumcision as such. It may well be that you regard both as mutilation, but the article is not about you. The two require treating separately.

Additionally, you removed a cited example of an author disagreeing with the claim.

Finally, in the second paragraph, you inserted a reference to circumcision, such that it read "ritual mutilation, frequently in the form of circumcision". Here, you cause the article to declare that Wikipedia considers circumcision to be a form of mutilation. This is POV.

In conclusion, it is clear that you are indeed POV pushing.

It is interesting to note that Sophia's edit was the first to identify that some hold the view, rather than endorsing it. Since it did not violate WP:NPOV, it remained. Your previous attempts were reverted because they did not conform to policy. Jakew 09:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with Jakew that FGC and circumcision need to be treated differently as FGC as practiced by some is a much more extensive procedure sometimes resulting in the loss of virtually all external genitalia. In the UK FGC is generally viewed as mutilation but circumcision is seen as unnecessary unless medically required. They are not viewed as equivalent procedures and I would not like to see FGC somehow trivialised by making it seem the female form of circumcision which it is not. As with all these practices we must make it clear that it is a POV to regard them as mutilation as obviously some people do them for what they see as positive reasons. The Amnesty link is important as I know they view involuntary FGC (as is very often the case) as a breach of human rights - the declaration of human rights in the west is seen to "trump' cultural practices. Sophia^{Gilraen of Dorthonion} 12:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]