Scania Trucks: I figure this page should also mention, or link to a dedicated page on, Scania Trucks [1]. Their page isn't terribly clear about where they're based now, but they seem to have been founded in Malmö, hence the name. Even if it's only a sentence saying Scania is also a manufacturer of trucks and busses, based in Malmö then that would be a useful addition. -- Finlay McWalter 18:08, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Scania AB is no longer based in Malmö, but I'll add the Scania (disambiguation) link to the page. -- Mic 10:23, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

I've tried to outline the controversy on how to classify Scanian tätorts (towns or cities), and put that on top of a list them in order of size, that can be seen at Towns of Scania. I consider, of course, this as a proposal, and intend to wait with linking to the article until I've received feedback. --Johan Magnus 01:22, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nice! Much better than my fumbling attempt in a similar direction in early August.[2] Would it be to ask you for too much, to propose the calculation of population densities for the tätorts, which I consider much more relevant and interesting than population densities for municipalities?

And I wonder, if a proper list of köpings and 20th-century towns wouldn't be a good complement on that page. /Tuomas 11:45, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Too bad no one asked around before doing these moves, but then again, when Peter Isotalo is behind you can count on that practice. We will all have to believe what he believs: that he is a genius who knows everything best. Right, User:Bishonen? Fred-Chess 10:04, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

71.106.239.124 Late comment inserted here (Pia, 3 May 2006 (UTC)) Fred, I (and many Scanians with me), find this name change and ambiguity tag totally insulting. Should we also demand an ambiguity tag on the word "Danish", because after all, there is a kind of pastry thus named? Or how about an ambiguity tag on United States of A. because after all, there is some kind of entity called United States Smelting, Refining, and Mining Company and another called United States Trotting Association, and it can be so confusing when you do a search on "United States"? Scania is the term used for Skåne by the United Nations (see http://www.unpo.org/member.php?arg=46 ) and by everybody outside of Sweden who does not have the letter Å handy on their keyboards (which I assume is about 98 percent of the people reading the English Wiki version). However, when you do a general Internet search, keyword Scania, even without the obligatory AB as in the trucking company's name, the commercial enterprise named after Scania the region pops up as Wikipedia's contribution to the world of knowledge. Does this imply that you all find the trucking company "infomercial" more relevant than the region itself? Puleeeeze! :(

I asked around and heard nothing but support. Elisson and Wiglaf sought me out to say what a good idea it was. Not that I need have asked, as everything I did is reversible: I could have just been bold. As for why I think Swedish names are better than Latin (you say on my talk page that I've moved them from "English names" to Swedish, but that's not the case) in an English-language encyclopedia, I refer you to Wiglaf's comment:

Yes, there's something absurd about calling Halland Hallandia and Uppland Upplandia when no one ever calls them so and the Swedish names are much more transparent to an English speaker.

If the provinces had had any English names, I would have used those, but they don't. Therefore, I moved them to a set of names actually used somewhere—in Sweden—and I moved them away from the antiquarian quaintness of the Latin versions. Let's discuss it, and I hope you'll find it in you to use a civil tone in the following, Fred. Bishonen | talk 11:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, good you asked those people; you were bold; I'm not blaming you. I think the Swedish Wikipedians Notice board is designed for those kind of questions though .

I personally would argue against the "Scania" change because from what i've seen, "Scania" is a proper name used in the English language.

--Fred-Chess 11:44, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Fred. You have a point about Scania, and I also think the spelling of Lapland/Lappland is a bit of a conundrum (covering different areas..?). But consistency across province article names is also a consideration. After all, anyone looking for Scania will find it, via the redirect to Skåne. Bishonen | talk 12:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

While I was stalking your edits, I saw you were changing the names to several Latinized names that are perhaps actually not in use (as you wrote), and I thought you would therefore leave "Scania" alone since "Scania" is actually a name that is in use. I don't know how much "Dalecarlia" and "Angermannia" etc. are in use; they are in use to some extent, but I don't know exactly because I don't live there.

Skåne, on the other hand, is called de:Schonen in German (yes -- Germans use this name in talk). I also see that es:Escania is the Spanish name. Thus "Skåne" is not some neutral all around used name. It may be the most commonly used among the common people, but I don't know. Tourism broshures use the name Scania actually.

--Fred-Chess 13:06, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

"Skåne" in other languages than English does not have anything to do with this discussion. At all. This is about English usage and nothing else. This discussion has already been had at the appropriate discussion forum and the Latin names have had mind-boggingly crappy support. There's only really been Mic and Ruhrjung to protest while several others have had very good argumentation agsinst the Latinized names. The argumentation for the use of Latin has been naively uninformed at best and plain annoying at worst. And to say that this is a matter that should mainly be brought up with other Swedes is ridiculous; Swedes should not have more to say about the English usage of names moreso than Arabs or Chicanos.

Without further yelling, here are the references I've found:

• article "Skåne" in Encyclopedia Britannnica - mentions Scania as an alternative name
• article "Skåne in Encarta - no mention of Scania, which only shows up at "Danish language" when searched for
• Google searches, both set for English language
  • Google search +Skåne +Sweden -Wikipedia - 88,300 hits
  • Google search for +Scania +Sweden -Wikipedia -truck - 49,000 hits (the -truck is to weed out Scania AB entries)

As for the other Latinized names of the historical provinces, they mostly get outnumbered by at least 100:1 by the Swedish names and few are even mentioned in EB or Encarta. My impression from the Google searches is that Scania is commonly used for the regionalistic "Great-Skåne" also known as Skåneland besides the regular Skåne. I know that Scania also makes buses, so that could account for even more Scania hits, but "-bus" could probably remove unrelated items. It also seems as if the most common users of "Scania" are not English speakers, but rather Scanians themselves, but that's just speculation.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:16, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I actually apopglize if I sounded too harsh earlier and hope we can still discuss the topic.

I wouldn't mind further discussion on the topic of Skåne/Scania, because I can image someone coming here asking "Why does the broshure say Scania if Skåne is the most used name"?

A google search is hardly proving anything, I think. Scania is used for many other things, just think about Saab Scania (the factory) and probably several other companies -- while Skåne is probably used by many Swedish speakers writing in English which shouldn't matter, as you said yourself.

Irony may lay in me having argued in favor of Skåne on Talk:Malmö not long ago stating "having never heard about Scania being used". However I had at that time not read any English texts.

My Swedish - English computer dictionary "WordFinder" translates Skåne to "n. Scania". Incidentally it does not give translations for the other provinces I tried.

On the other hand, I have some broshures that use "Skåne" instead of "Scania" when writing in English. They do however also misuse the German name and use "Skåne" instead of "Schonen". The talk page de:Diskussion:Schonen writes that a usage guide is much in favor of Schonen instead of Skåne. I think we would need a similar usage guide for the English name, but unfortunately the writers of this page are all Swedish so we will probably need to wait for proper English references. It may be possible that someone here has acquired the renowned oxford Dictionary, which would be a good first step to consult. --Fred-Chess 09:36, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

The OED isn't the place to look, I'm afraid, as it basically doesn't do names. It does give names of nations (Sweden, Germany, not Sverige, Deutschland), but for smaller units, it only seem to have them insofar as they have entered into the English language as part of other concepts. Thus, the entry for Oslo is this:

attrib. Designating a type of meal originally introduced into Norwegian schools by Dr. Carl Schiotz to correct nutritional deficiencies in children's diets. Esp. in Oslo breakfast; also Oslo lunch, meal, etc.

That's the entry proper. If you click on its "etymology", you'll also get told that it's derived from the capital of Norway, but that information isn't part of the entry proper. Stockholm is in the OED because it has contributed Stockholm tar and Stockholm syndrome to the English language; Helsinki isn't in there at all (I thought it might ride in on "Helsinki agreement", but I guess that in itself is also a proper name). So, on the same principle, you don't find either Scania or Skåne in OED, either.

Tourist brochures (?) are the least authoritative printed sources imaginable, as I'm sure you're aware, being generally translated into the target language by people with wildly varying qualifications for such a task. A good first step to my mind is the Encyclopædia Britannica, as Peter suggests. The Skåne article there is at Skåne, with a redirect from Scania and a line "also called Scania" right at the top. Bishonen | talk 14:27, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok good thing you told me about OED, I didn't know that.

That an article should use the English name if there is one, according to naming policy, should then not bother us too much? --Fred-Chess 16:53, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I think the policy actually is to use the name most commonly used in English, which may not be the "English name". This is the reason the cities of Leghorn and Ratisbon are not located under these good English names – they aren't used much anymore among English-speakers, or at least not among the English-speakers who contribute to Wikipedia (and who are on average probably more familiar with Alderaan and Tatooine, anyway).

As for the names of Swedish provinces, most of these provinces probably aren't commonly referred to in English at all, and should thus be under their Swedish names. But I'd think Dalecarlia is one relatively often used, and one much more frequently used just a century ago. It should definitely be mentioned at the beginning of the article. Same thing with Scania. In the other cases, the Latin names should still be mentioned early on, as other names (of people, plants, boats, companies, whatever) have been derived from them and they may be encountered in old printed works. They should be there and explained as the "Latin name of X" if someone searches for a word seen, say, in an engraving from the Suecia Antiqua et hodierna (which should have an article, BTW). Tupsharru 17:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It does, Tups, Suecia Antiqua et Hodierna. I agree with the points you make. Bishonen | talk 18:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you claim that Scania is not used in English anymore? --Fred-Chess 19:24, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Just wanted to drop in here to say that I support Tupsharru's interpretation of naming policy above, as well as his opinion on mentioning the Latin names early in all the province articles. As for Fred's question, my guess is that most of us have come to the conclusion that Scania is sometimes used in contemporary English, although Skåne seems to be considerably more frequent. / Alarm 22:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have still not seen convincing evidence that "Skåne" is significantly more used than "Scania". --Fred-Chess 07:59, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

This strikes me as more than a bit absurd.

I can categorically contradict a lot of this. Scania is the English name, it's been the English name for centuries, and the allegation that it's not English is just... unfathomable. Yes, it comes by way of Latin - a huge amount of our English vocabulary does. So?

Scania AB has been mentioned - where do you think they got that name? Many businesses in Sweden adopt English names, it's considered fashionable.

Most English speakers don't know the word? Perhaps so, but then again most English speakers don't know a lot of relatively obscure English words, including a great number of place-names. I dare say many, quite possibly even most English speakers wouldn't know where Florence is offhand either, but that doesn't mean that Florence is not the English name for the city Italians call Firenze. Certainly anyone that's focused on Scandinavian geography or history would know it, and certainly if you want to look up references to the area in English language history or geography books Scania would be the word you would search under.

I'm a native English speaker and I've lived and worked in Sweden and done translation (Swedish to English) and language editting, among other things, if you're wondering. But don't trust me, grab any good English language book on Sweden for the library, or a Swedish to English dictionary, or heck ask any Swedish-English translator. Outside of this page I've never known of anyone that had the slightest confusion on this. Arker 01:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Then isn't it time for this page to be moved to Scania. I'm an English speaker too and whenever referring to this region of Sweden I have always called it Scania not Skåne.

This move would make a lot of sense, since the page on the dialect/language will most likely soon be moved to Scanian (linguistics) (as the most popular option as of 16-10-05). Mark 05:44, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The google search on pages in English is (weakly) in favour of Skåne. I wouldn't be so sure Mark's statement is true for all or most native English speakers, not as long as Britannica etc. has its entry on Skåne. I'd say it is better if the page stays where it is. // Habj 07:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did a search on "Skåne" on SAOB. Not having any way of linking it, I created the result on a subpage as Talk:Skåneland/SAOB. It is in Swedish only, but should be interesting for Swedish editors. --Fred-Chess 17:39, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

You can link to it by just showing the right frame of the webpage and get the URL from that. Tupsharru 17:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right... http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se/saob/show.phtml?filenr=1/253/64657.html

I hope this will finally convince Peter that "Skåneland" was used before Martin Weibull "invented" it in the 19th century as NE somewhat wrongly states. --Fred-Chess 07:56, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Fred, you're welcome to question the authority of NE, but if you do that I suggest you provide better source material than a dictionary definition. I'm going to trust the summary provided by NE a lot more than highly ambiguous quotes by Carl von Linné. Please do some proper research.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting that the editorial board of Svenska Akademiens Ordbok does shoddy research? The quote is referenced. Just follow the links. It is from Linne's Skånska Resa. And it is not the only quote listed. Just out of curiosity, since there appear to be so much venom: Are you disputing that Linne used the term, that the his text exists (Skånska Resa), or the correctness of the quote as represented by SAOB? Please tell us whether or not you are more qualified in etymology than the scholars on the editorial board of SAOB and more experienced in judging historical sources and conducting language use research than the Institute for Swedish Language at Göteborg University so that we can put this to rest. --- Pia

Why isn't this talked about? Cameron Nedland 02:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Because there is no such desire. --Notera 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I totally disagree with Notera if he or she is implying that the drive in Skåne for political and administrative reorganisation and decentralisations, as well as the presence of a historically based Skånsk nationalism, are non-existent. Like Cameron points out, this article ignores those in the Scanian population working towards an autonomous Skåne. See for example the documents presented to the committee of the European Convention for the Protection of National Minorities in November 2002 at http://www.scania.org/activities/council2/illrep.htm.

The beauty of the Internet is that it promises an end to this type of control and censorship by state and centralized mass media information and that aspect is bound to catch up with this Wikipedia article too. To quote Göran Hansson, Chairman SSF / Vice Chairman UNPO: "The modern Scanian Movement has been active for ten years. If it is a correct assumption that it takes 25 years to peacefully and democratically sway the majority of the Scanian population to favour devolution, as in Scotland and Flanders, we have 15 years to go. It may seem a long time, but we are sure that we will get there. The key is patience and persistence, as well as the boldness to strive for a vision of a better world - and the realisation that even global changes start at home!" (Hanson, G. "Cultures under threat: A State - A Nation." 'Regionalism and Freedom of Identity,The 18th Conference,' Copenhagen 21-23 August 1998. <http://www.scania.org/document/articles/docu/0105tale.htm>.)