Talk:Charles I of England: Difference between revisions
92.20.197.74 (talk) →Roman Catholic view, Protestant view: Not an Anglican. |
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Charles I was still not a Protestant or an Anglican. If the Stuarts were Anglican, James II wouldn't have been forced to abdicate. [[Special:Contributions/92.20.197.74|92.20.197.74]] ([[User talk:92.20.197.74|talk]]) 13:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC) |
Charles I was still not a Protestant or an Anglican. If the Stuarts were Anglican, James II wouldn't have been forced to abdicate. [[Special:Contributions/92.20.197.74|92.20.197.74]] ([[User talk:92.20.197.74|talk]]) 13:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC) |
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James II/VII converted to Catholicism. Also Anglicism is a forms of Protestantism [[User:Bevo74|Bevo74]] ([[User talk:Bevo74|talk]]) 16:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC) |
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==Successor== |
==Successor== |
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Revision as of 16:47, 22 April 2012
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"Many this, many that"
MANY times within this article, statements are made presenting a stance which is strongly bias against Charles with an unsourced statement, which supposed "many" people said. This is a violation of WP:WEASEL.
- "Many of Charles's subjects felt this brought the Church of England too close to Roman Catholicism."
- "Ruling without Parliament, though an exceptional exercise of the royal prerogative, was supported by precedent. By the middle of the 17th century, opinion had shifted, and many held the Personal Rule to be an illegitimate exercise of arbitrary, absolute power
Also this sentence is unsourced."
- "Those actions were open to misinterpretation, and there were fears as early as 1626 that he was a potential tyrant."
A person who abores Charles has clearly made many biased and unvertified edits to this article. - Yorkshirian (talk) 07:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
'Many' is legitimate in the article (its used 15 times in total). It is more than one, fewer than all. It is somewhat colloquial, but does not define the number as a majority, nor does it specify only a small minority (as the word 'some' would suggest). 'Many' thus serves to underline the fact that there was a significant number of whatever is specified. In particular, the strength of support for Charles and his policies fluctuated over time, so to say a majority of MPs opposed Charles due to his exceptional use of royal prerogative would be misleading. Moreover, 'many' doesn't have any bias either in favour or in opposition to Charles within the article. --AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 18:28, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Religious icecream?
The first sentence of the second paragraph of the article makes no sense to me: "Religious icecream permeated Shermin's reign." Maybe vandalism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.18.20.155 (talk) 16:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Pastors pasteurize religious icecream, which is more appetising to puritans' pallets than a diet of worms.
Page should probably be semi-protected to prevent random acts of vandalism. --AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 18:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC) he had many children and was married to a poo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.8.124.238 (talk) 09:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
Oath of Allegiance
The Oath of Allegiance section appears without any reference to it elsewhere in the article. Why is it there? --DThomsen8 (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Why does it say that 'early modern usage of such an oath was instituted by James I'. What about Henry's VIII Oath of Supremacy? I don't see the difference really, especially since Charles' oath retains the idea that Kingly authority is above the church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andwats (talk • contribs) 00:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
charles 1
charles was well cool and is well cool —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.235.42.18 (talk) 08:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Charles I of England/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Ironholds (talk) 13:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Initial comment
- I am very close to simple quickfailing this article; there are massive unreferenced chunks which should be easy to spot (if you need a more detailed list of examples, say so). At the moment this article wouldn't even pass muster as a B-class. If you can fix the referencing issues I'm prepared to give a more detailed review, otherwise it will simply be failed. Ironholds (talk) 13:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Oh yeah- point out the main areas and I'll have a go. What does it need? Roughly another 30 references? --AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 15:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- ..err, slightly more than that. A complete list of unreferenced statements:
- the Court of High Commission [...] The former could compel individuals to provide self-incriminating testimony, whilst the latter, essentially an extension of the Privy Council, could inflict any punishment whatsoever (including torture), with the sole exception of death.
- Under Charles's reign, defendants were regularly hauled before the Court without indictment, due process of the law, or right to confront witnesses, and their testimonies were routinely extracted by the Court through torture.
- Of the 493 MPs of the Commons, 399 were opposed to the king, and only 94 could be counted on, by Charles, for support.
- And that's up to less than halfway through the article. I'll give you a chance to try and fix those before pasting in more. Ironholds (talk) 18:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's well established as B class btw.--AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 10:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- Established, absolutely. Deserving of or in line with the requirements? absolutely not. Ironholds (talk) 15:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- By well established I mean that it is significantly better than it was when it received that class. It is infinitely better shape than it was when it was last a featured article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_I_of_England&diff=135326373&oldid=135323172).--AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- You can paste in the rest whenever you like. --AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 13:36, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- By well established I mean that it is significantly better than it was when it received that class. It is infinitely better shape than it was when it was last a featured article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_I_of_England&diff=135326373&oldid=135323172).--AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- Established, absolutely. Deserving of or in line with the requirements? absolutely not. Ironholds (talk) 15:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's well established as B class btw.--AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 10:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- Okie dokes:
- the New English settlers in Ireland were Protestant and could loosely be defined as aligned with the English Parliament and the Puritans; thereby fundamentally opposed to the crown due to unfolding events within England herself.
- many members of the House of Commons fearing that forces raised by Charles might later be used against Parliament itself.
- He put himself into the hands of the Scottish Presbyterian army at Newark, and was taken to nearby Southwell while his "hosts" decided what to do with him.
- The Presbyterians finally arrived at an agreement with Parliament and delivered Charles to them in 1647. He was imprisoned at Holdenby House in Northamptonshire, until cornet George Joyce took him by force to Newmarket in the name of the New Model Army. At this time mutual suspicion had developed between the New Model Army and Parliament, and Charles was eager to exploit it.
- I'll leave it there for now until you've dealt with a bit more. Ironholds (talk) 14:45, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think you can stick in the last heap at this stage --AnAbsolutelyOriginalUsername42 (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment: Just had a brief look at this, and noticed the following things:
- The short-form references need to be unambiguous. I noticed a few cases of "Smith" that could be one of two books.
- I see no reason why the "Ancestors" footer should be in the middle of the articles, footers normally go on the bottom.
- The "Legacy" section needs more references. More importantly though, it says little about one of the most important things: the development of the historical view of the king. There is a comment from the contemporary Laud, while Dutton gets to stand as the only voice of an historian. The article also needs to explain historiographical development. Lampman (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I also notice that the bibliography seems to have some obvious omissions: Morrill, Russell, Sharpe etc. I'm not an expert on the period though, ideally the article should be looked at by someone who is. Lampman (talk) 17:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I understand this is a long and complex topic, but can we get an ETA from either side on when this GA review will be finished? Looks like it's just been sitting here. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- To me this article fails - as so many others - on the issue of "Legacy" and "Assessment": the idea that this is all about what's been named after the subject, and not about his historiographical assessment. This is the major problem, the rest are details, as Einstein said. The article's been on hold for over two months, which should be more than enough. I'll fail it if no-one else will. Lampman (talk) 03:01, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed, I am failing this nomination as little progress has been made. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 01:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Warrant signed in Leicestershire
I have removed a suggestion that the death warrant was signed in Leicestershire. The supporting reference seems to be local tittle tattle. I am not aware of any reliable source that suggests the warrant was signed anywhere other than Westminster.
Text removed: ", possibly at the Red Lion Inn in Stathern, Leicestershire[1] on 29 January 1649" Rjm at sleepers (talk) 04:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Quarrel between Buckingham and the Spanish nation?!
Moreover, a personal quarrel erupted between Buckingham and the Spanish nation between whom was mutual misunderstanding and ill temper
How can one have a personal quarrel with a nation?!
Top.Squark (talk) 10:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Contradiction with Puritan: Reason for absence of consort at coronation
Although he stated to Parliament that he would not relax restrictions relating to recusants, he promised to do exactly that in a secret marriage treaty with Louis XIII of France. Moreover, the price of marriage with the French princess was a promise of English aid for the French crown in the suppressing of the Protestant Huguenots at La Rochelle, thereby reversing England's long held position in the French Wars of Religion. The couple were married in person on 13 June 1625 in Canterbury and Charles himself was crowned on 2 February 1626 at Westminster Abbey, but without his wife at his side due to the controversy.
According to this article, Henrietta Maria was absent from the coronation because of the "controversy" i.e. due to the disapproval of the marriage and/or its terms within England. However, according to Puritan:
...he [Charles] married Henrietta-Marie de Bourbon of France... who refused to attend the coronation of her husband in a non-Catholic cathedral.
That is, Henrietta was absent out of her own choice.
Who is right?
Top.Squark (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Coronation of English monarchs is an Act of Communion of the English Church, and while Charles I was a member, even ex officio head, of the Church of England, Henrietta-Maria was throughout her life an unequivocally declared Catholic, therefore not within the Communion of Church of England and as such uneligible for coronation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.171.38 (talk) 13:39, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Roman Catholic view, Protestant view
Do any "Catholic" churches, besides the Anglican Communion, specifically the Roman Catholic Church, have any official views on Charles I? I know he is not recognized as a Saint in the RCC, but is there an official opinion of him? Are there any Protestants, say- the Lutherans, who include him in their Saint calenders? Or is he purely only a saint within the Anglican Communion? I know he was only canonized in the Anglican Communion, but is his sainthood recognized by others? Or denied by others? Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Anglicans consider him a saint because he died for the Established Church; I don't see why one would expect Lutherans or (especially) Roman Catholics to appreciate this. In general, non-Roman Catholics aren't canonized by the RCC. john k (talk) 02:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know that non-Catholics are not canonized by the Roman Catholic Church. I was asking what their views, if there are any official views of him, are.. since he was married to a Catholic and was a very pro-catholic traditionalist within the Anglican Church. Lutheran Saint Calenders include important Christian figures, such as John Wesley, who was not Lutheran but Anglican (and also an Anglican Saint), but is still recognized as "Saints" by Lutheran Churches. So I was wondering if anyone knows if he is in the Lutheran Calender of Saints.. Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also, since there is now the Anglican Use, or Anglicans who have joined the Latin Rite (Catholic Church), and are now in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church but still maintain Anglican customs, is St. Charles Stuart venerated within that specific form of Catholicism? Since the Roman Catholic Church never canonized or venerated him, other catholics would not. But as he is a Saint of Anglican tradition, would Anglican Use Catholics venerate him? Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- The Anglican Use observes the [Roman Calendar] with some additions,. Charles Stuart is not amongst them. I doubt that the Catholic Church has an 'official' position toward him. His father favoured episcopacy over presbyterian government, and he himself furthered a liturgy within the Church of England that shared some elements with Catholicism. His wife was of course a Catholic. His first son married a Catholic and probably died one.None of these kings relaxed the penal legislation concerning Catholics however. His second son James II was a Catholic of course, as are his descendants to this day.And Henry IX, the last Stuart pretender, was a cardinal in the Papal Court.Gazzster (talk) 05:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Also, since there is now the Anglican Use, or Anglicans who have joined the Latin Rite (Catholic Church), and are now in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church but still maintain Anglican customs, is St. Charles Stuart venerated within that specific form of Catholicism? Since the Roman Catholic Church never canonized or venerated him, other catholics would not. But as he is a Saint of Anglican tradition, would Anglican Use Catholics venerate him? Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Charles I was still not a Protestant or an Anglican. If the Stuarts were Anglican, James II wouldn't have been forced to abdicate. 92.20.197.74 (talk) 13:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC) James II/VII converted to Catholicism. Also Anglicism is a forms of Protestantism Bevo74 (talk) 16:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Successor
Should the sucessor be Oliver Cromwell or Charles II?Cooltiger989 (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Alletta Hogenhove
FWIW: Alletta (or, more common in Dutch: Aletta) Hogenhove was not married to Robert Carey, 1st Earl of Monmouth, but to Robert Carey, the son of Sir Edmund Carey of Moulton Park and his first wife Mary Crocker. This Sir Edmund Carey was the brother of the 1st Earl of Monmouth. See for instance Cracroft Peerage [search for "Hunsdon, Baron (E, 1559 - 1765)"] and Genealogics.org. To make things more complicated: according to GenealogieOnline the mother of Sir Edmund Carey's wife Maria Cocker was also called Aletta Hogenhove. Best, Jozefus (talk) 11:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Page Clean-Up
I'm going to clean up the page soon, it looks a bit odd to me currently. User:Tomtomn00/Signature
reference missing
Several times the text refers to "MacCulloch," (notes 83 & 84, a & b both). There is NO SOURCE for this. Please can someone add the source. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gobears87 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- This is not the only reference that is completely missing. This page is really a mess. Is anyone watching?? I spent some time looking back at revisions to find the lost citations, and am tempted to insert notes alongside the footnotes "citation missing". It's not my page, or my expertise, but SOMEONE has to have been paying attention somewhere along the way? Hello? Anyone?? --gobears87 (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
When did Charles II become king?
The article says "Charles' son, Charles II, though he became king at the death of his father, did not take up the reins of government until the restoration of the monarchy in 1660".
What about saying "Charles' son, Charles II, who dated his accession from the death of his father, did not take up the reins of government until the restoration of the monarchy in 1660". That Charles II was the king during Cromwell's reign seems to rewrite history. Even say "became king in exile". Something. "Did not take up the reins" seems like a description of the interim rule of a regency council. I dare say that the beheading of Charles I triggered no preparations for the the opening of the reign of Charles II. The fact that he became king only after reaching an agreement with Parliament means that he was not king, in the opinion of many, until that agreement. In that case, that he was king prior to that was generally disputed; ie POV at best. ( Martin | talk • contribs 20:21, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
Malformed possessives
It's annoying to see the possessive form of names such as Charles and James being written with trailing apostophes. They should properly be written Charles's and James's, as they are pronounced. It is a widespread American misapprehension to think that the possessive of any word ending in 's' should be formed by a trailing apostrophe, but in fact this rule applies only to plurals ending in 's'. Please correct these errors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mconnally (talk • contribs) 11:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Tomb opening?
An examination performed in 1813 at Windsor suggests that the execution was carried out by an experienced headsman. This means his tomb was opened, right? Wouldn't there have been a good documentation of this, since it would be have been a big deal at the time? The article only contains this one line. --76.115.67.114 (talk) 11:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Page title: King of Scotland (and England)
Why does the title page restrict his title to King of England, omitting Scotland (and Ireland)? His father was King of Scotland before his acquistion of the kingdom of England. Further, Charles was born in Scotland. To that extent, he and his father were primarily Kings of Scotland and only subsequently of England. To restrict his title to one of his kingdoms, England, thereby rewriting history, is not only historically inaccurate and, therefore, out of place in this encyclopaedia, but smacks of English cultural imperialism.
- ^ "Red Lion Inn, a Pub and Bar in Stathern, Leicestershire. Search for Leicestershire Pub and Bars". Information Britain. Retrieved 2008-10-27.