Talk:Croatian War of Independence: Difference between revisions
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*'''Support''' move to '''Croatian Homeland War''' - definitely more accurate title. [[User:PANONIAN|<font color="blue">'''PANONIAN'''</font>]] 14:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' move to '''Croatian Homeland War''' - definitely more accurate title. [[User:PANONIAN|<font color="blue">'''PANONIAN'''</font>]] 14:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' move to '''Croatian Homeland War'''. It's correct name of the war. --<font face="Old English Text MT">[[User:Wustenfuchs|<font size="3" color="Black">Wusten</font>]][[User talk:Wustenfuchs|<font size="3" color="Dimgray">fuchs</font>]]</font> 15:28, 29 March 2012 (UTC) |
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Josip Jović - first victim or not?
The article says: "A monument to Josip Jović, widely perceived in Croatia as the first Croatian victim of the war, who died during the Plitvice Lakes Incident". Why the "widely perceived" line? I heard that someone was killed in 1990, but by that time there was no armed conflict in Croatia, so therefor he cannot be viewed as the forerunner to Jović. Even the ICTY established that its mandate begins with the year 1991. Quarrels should (arguably) not be included here but in the timeline article.--Justice and Arbitration (talk) 17:47, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- I've since moved the data on fatalities of the Log Revolution into that article. If the consensus is that those events classify more as unrest than as war, you can remove the cautious phrasing. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:07, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Copyright violations in this article
Another editor has spotted that the line "Between August 1990 and April 1991, almost 200 bombing and mining incidents, as well as 89 attacks on Croatian police forces, were reported" is verbatim from the source cited. Could someone please fix this and review the article for other copyvios? Prioryman (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Battle of Vukovar featured article nomination
Please note that I've nominated the related Battle of Vukovar article as a featured article candidate at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Vukovar/archive2. Editors are invited to comment there on whether the article should be given featured status. Prioryman (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
File:JRV J-21 Jastreb.jpg Nominated for Deletion
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An image used in this article, File:JRV J-21 Jastreb.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 10 February 2012
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Requested move
Croatian War of Independence → Croatian Homeland War –
Accroding to the Google Books, there are 1,960 results for "Croatian Homeland War", while there is 853 results for the "Croatian War of Independence".
Also, non of those two is someone's POV, both names are neutral.
According to the WP:COMMONNAME, Wikipedia should use most common name for the subject in English-language sources. Wustenfuchs 18:55, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps but this is hardly conclusive. Google results hardly translate into automatic evidence of English usage. This having been said a search for '"Croatian Homeland War" -wikipedia' on ordinary Google yields 159,000 results while '"Croatian War of Independence" -wikipedia' yields 759,000. When I do a Google news archive search, most of the results for "Croatian Homeland War" seems to relate to an organisation called the Association of Croatian Homeland War Veterans, while the same search for "Croatian War of Independence" returns recent articles referring to the conflict in the Belfast Telegraph and the (London) Times. On the balance I'd go for "Croatian War of Independence" and oppose the move. But in any event IMHO, the name Homeland War is vague and rather odd sounding while War of Independence is frequently used self-explanatory. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 00:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
After checking out Gbooks, there is an undisputed winner: War in Croatia (77,800), Croatian War (6,570), Croatian Homeland War (1,960), Croatian War of Independence (856). I support a move to "War in Croatia" or "Croatian War" (as per Bosnian War).--Zoupan 00:41, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose the move. "War in Croatia" is a generic term - Which war do you refer to exactly? BBC seems to use the present title consistently [1], [2], [3], the same is used by The New York Times [4], and the CNN [5]. On top of that a Dictionary of Wars refers to the war under present title of the article. I can see absolutely no justification (let alone benefit) from the proposed move.--Tomobe03 (talk) 00:54, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose per BHL. And "War in Croatia" is highly generic. If you look at WWII books, they also use the term when talking about the region. 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Lets review:
- "Croatian War of Independence" yields 767 sources [6]
- "Croatian Homeland War" yields 1950 sources [7]
- "War in Croatia" yields 77,800 sources [8]
So in mathematical terms, even if we were to assume 96% of those 77,000 hits "do not count" for one reason or another (which is demonstrably ridiculous), it would still be twice as common as "Croatian Homeland War". In short, WP:COMMONNAME is overwhelmingly in support of War in Croatia. Therefore:
- Support a move to War in Croatia. -- Director (talk) 11:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME actually advises to observe usage of major English language institutions, media outlets etc. In addition to the above cited (BBC, NYT, CNN), the present title is used by the Centre d'Information sur les Institutions Européennes (official distributor of official European Union information), UNHCR, United Press International, Australian ABC, European Commission, US Department of State, Amnesty International, Lonely Planet, The Guardian and so on. In this case google statistics do not really matter.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, Tomboe. WP:COMMONNAME (unsurprisingly) states quite unambiguously that "Wikipedia prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." The paragraph you're talking about states "In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals. A search engine may help to collect this data..."
- WP:COMMONNAME actually advises to observe usage of major English language institutions, media outlets etc. In addition to the above cited (BBC, NYT, CNN), the present title is used by the Centre d'Information sur les Institutions Européennes (official distributor of official European Union information), UNHCR, United Press International, Australian ABC, European Commission, US Department of State, Amnesty International, Lonely Planet, The Guardian and so on. In this case google statistics do not really matter.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- In other words, checking news might help to determine the most common name used in sources, but we're still looking for the most common name. The paragraph is merely suggesting another search engine category to research. The few links you've provided are completely without importance with respect to WP:COMMONNAME, especially so when compared to the huge number of published sources using "War in Croatia". Jusdging from what we've seen thus far, "War in Croatia" is without question the term "most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". -- Director (talk) 12:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- If you claim that what name is used by the several most influential news outlets, the European Union and the United States are completely without importance, I comprehend your lack of understanding of the problem. Can you tell which "War in Croatia" is referred to by each individual google hit or do you assume that the generic name applies to the Croatian War of Independence only? I understand that the "War in Croatia" is a direct translation of what the war is referred to in say, Serbia, but apparently not the EU or USA, and not by the major English-language media.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- War in Croatia is really a bad title, since according to this, Bosnian war would be War in Bosnia (just see the results) and god nows for how many wars we could use title "War in -----". It's not the name of the war, and very often it is regarding the WW2 or even earlier wars. Croatian Homeland War is way better solution. --Wustenfuchs 12:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- The point is the cited sources use the present title of the article to refer to the war precisely because "war in Croatia" is too generic and not because they conspire to do so or as a result of a direct translation of a local name.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, however, English-language sources more often use "Homeland War" then "War of Independence" as historical name of the war. --Wustenfuchs 12:33, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- The point is the cited sources use the present title of the article to refer to the war precisely because "war in Croatia" is too generic and not because they conspire to do so or as a result of a direct translation of a local name.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- War in Croatia is really a bad title, since according to this, Bosnian war would be War in Bosnia (just see the results) and god nows for how many wars we could use title "War in -----". It's not the name of the war, and very often it is regarding the WW2 or even earlier wars. Croatian Homeland War is way better solution. --Wustenfuchs 12:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- If you claim that what name is used by the several most influential news outlets, the European Union and the United States are completely without importance, I comprehend your lack of understanding of the problem. Can you tell which "War in Croatia" is referred to by each individual google hit or do you assume that the generic name applies to the Croatian War of Independence only? I understand that the "War in Croatia" is a direct translation of what the war is referred to in say, Serbia, but apparently not the EU or USA, and not by the major English-language media.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Look, I know you're going to hate me and all, but as far as policy is concerned, you're both just wrong.
- @Tomboe, your proposed option is the least common. The fact that various institutions (you cherry-picked) use it is, again, - utterly irrelevant: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." 77,000 published sources, Tomboe. And even if only 2% of those refer to this subject (and the very thought is laughable), they blow the others clean away.
You can probably stop mentioning your links altogether: they are non-indicative of common usage. - @Wustenfuchs, you're here because you want to rename the article into "Domovinski rat", so lets not play these games. WP:COMMONNAME is the least of your concerns, otherwise you would be supporting "War in Croatia" (or is that a "bad title"?). Your position is somewhat strange since your whole argument for your preferred title - in reality indicates that we should use another title. So, all the "its a bad title" stuff aside, you can really either support "War in Croatia", or give-up on "Homeland War", or lose all credibility (or just leave).
- @Tomboe, your proposed option is the least common. The fact that various institutions (you cherry-picked) use it is, again, - utterly irrelevant: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." 77,000 published sources, Tomboe. And even if only 2% of those refer to this subject (and the very thought is laughable), they blow the others clean away.
- Furthermore, the term is not "generic" at all. In fact, its quite unambiguous - War in Croatia redirects here. And even if it were generic (and it is not), we would still have to use, it with disambiguation, - since it is the most common in sources. -- Director (talk) 13:09, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Look, I know you're going to hate me and all, but as far as policy is concerned, you're both just wrong.
- Support move to War in Croatia. Otherwise there should be a vote on whether to use "War in Croatia" or "Croatian War" as article name - i.e Iraq War or War in Afghanistan.--Zoupan 13:52, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - The layout here is getting dizzying, but I'll voice my opposition to the original and alternate proposed name changes as per BHL and our unregistered friend up there. --BDD (talk) 18:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Ugh... it is a little over-complicated now isn't it? If this fails I might post a separate RM with the research clearly laid out - 'cuz its pretty unambiguous what the title ought to be as far as WP:NAME is concerned. -- Director (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- War in Croatia is too vague. There have been lots of wars in Croatia. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 22:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- On the territory that is now Croatia, yes, but no war was fought "in Croatia" since, well, the Middle Ages perhaps - and those have other distinct names (when they have names at all). For the same reason we have the Bosnian War article, in spite of the fact that there are few more fought-over scraps of land than Bosnia.
- In short, it is simply not "vague" or "generic". The term "War in Croatia" refers exclusively to this war, and no other. -- Director (talk) 22:34, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- But again, even if it were "generic" (and its not) it would still be the most common name used in sources. Hence, if we're to follow policy at all, we would need to use it regardless. We do not move or name articles based on a subjective feeling of "vagueness" - we follow sources and use the name they use. When its ambiguous (and the one in question is not), we use disambiguation. -- Director (talk) 22:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. Google counting can't be used as a substantial argument since at least some sources list both names while giving preference to Croatian War of Independence, e.g.:
- "Croatian war of independence, known in Croatia as the Homeland War [...]"[9]
- This quote also highlights the central argument against the suggested new title: it's POV. "War is Croatia" was fine for contemporary reporting - it was clear what war was meant by that description - but it is too generic and thus unsuitable for a title in an encyclopedia, especially given the better choice that is the article's current title. GregorB (talk) 20:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. We've had this kind of a discussion before, see the talk page archives. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 06:40, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- Support move to Croatian Homeland War - definitely more accurate title. PANONIAN 14:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- Support move to Croatian Homeland War. It's correct name of the war. --Wustenfuchs 15:28, 29 March 2012 (UTC)