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Do not remove or alter other users' comments. If anyone does this going forward, I will block them immediately. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 17:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)d like to once again alert all users to wikipedia policies WP:NPA, WP:3RR and WP:SOCK. Please read them and follow them if you are not already doing so. Following them will help keep our discussions productive.Timothy Usher 20:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you remindng everyone to follow established policy. I certainly hope this means that your actions in the future won't be a reason for me to rerequesting semi-protection. Last thing, I know you have been posting here along with Vector4F, Kyaa, Graft, and User:24. User:Katefan0 has been very generous by contributing time to get this place back in order and s/he has also archived the talk page. Can you people please let Katefan0 know if any threads need to be pulled out of archive? Thanks. Hrana98 20:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Err. Rather a lot got archived, including some active threads. Can we be a LITTLE more conservative and only archive things that have been dead for, say, three weeks? Graft 20:39, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I haven't looked at the talk page conversation becuase little of it seemed productive. If there are specific threads you'd like to bring back, go ahead. Just cut and paste from the latest archive above. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 21:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My revert was based on WP:RPA. This does not constitute vandalism, or a basis for requesting page protection. I am still unclear what benefit you saw in restoring User:24.7.141.159's latest violations of WP:NPA, and would be curious to hear your explanation. Regardless, if this policy is followed, I've no reason to remove anyone's comments.Timothy Usher 20:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not here to discuss particulars of the various battles you had going on this talk page but what I can conclude is the behavior leading up to semiprotection was reprehensible. There are ample examples where you violated WP:NPA and made unfounded accusations against fellow editors. This spirit of playing a fact-finder and acting like moral police is shunned due largely to the fact it is offtopic, leads to flamewars, and is counterproductive to the aims of Wikipedia. Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia and deal with it via some other civil means. Regardless, censorship of a Talk page cannot be condoned and you were guilty of that by your own admission. Your desire to cite WP:RPA is problematic because it is not official WP policy and it is abused by one side of an argument reglularly (as cited on WP:RPA). Furthermore, as per WP:RPA, it would have been in the best interest of everyone for you to remove your own personal attacks before editing the other side's comments. I would urge you to ask an administrator to intervene before removing comments in the future. Hrana98 01:24, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I did not personally attack other editors. Your comment, "Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia and deal with it via some other civil means." recalls User:24.7.141.159's "Slander, whether electronic, has consequences in civil society and I'm willing to pursue those avenues." No one else was suggesting this type of thing, and I don't see why you are suggesting it to me; in fact to do as you suggest would violate WP:NLT as discussed. As you recognize, this is all quite off-topic, so if will you allow me to get back to the matter at hand, that would be greatly appreciated.Timothy Usher 01:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is becoming quite clear that you are an argumentative editor with paranoid delusions. To claim that I'm making legal threats against you and violating WP:NLT is yet another baseless claim which you seem to be so good at making. If nothing else, you are clearly showing that you are the problem on this talk page. Since you obviously can't parse a simple English sentence, let me do it for you. "Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia..." means that I do not want to see any more battles or arguments by you with myself or any other editors in these talk pages. Doing so will prompt me to ask for Administrator actions against your account--it's that simple. The second part of the sentence kindly asked for you to "...deal with it via some other civil means." The word civil is defined in the context of social order as opposed to uncivilized behavior. In other words, deal with your problems like an intelligent, educated, and mature individual through open communication instead of playing the victim card. If you need to discuss this further, then move it to your talk page and remove it from here. Thank you. Hrana98 06:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"It is becoming quite clear that you are an argumentative editor with paranoid delusions." Once again, read WP:NPA as well as WP:CIVILITY.

"...I do not want to see any more battles or arguments by you with myself or any other editors in these talk pages." There is nothing untoward about arguing on talk pages, with you (regardless of which account you use) or any other editor. We need to argue in order to come to informed agreement or at least reach NPOV. However, it's important that our arguments not contain personalized invective or threats.Timothy Usher 06:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fabricating baseless claims of legal threats where none exist is poor attitude. Please refer to Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith when dealing with editors. Please do not bait editors with fabrications and follow guidelines presented in both Wikipedia:Etiquette and Wikipedia:Civility. Also, remember you aren't here to restort to mortal combat with other editors nor is it realistic to play the victim card. If you are unclear on these and other points, I would point you to Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground. Please honor my request to move this argument off the Talk:Islamism page. Thank you for participating and I fully expect that this is the last response from you. Hrana98 07:02, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You wrote, “To claim that I'm making legal threats against you and violating WP:NLT is yet another baseless claim which you seem to be so good at making.”

Please re-read more carefully: I wrote “Your comment, "Quite frankly, you need to take this battle off Wikipedia and deal with it via some other civil means." recalls User:24.7.141.159's "Slander, whether electronic, has consequences in civil society and I'm willing to pursue those avenues." No one else was suggesting this type of thing, and I don't see why you are suggesting it to me; in fact to do as you suggest would violate WP:NLT as discussed.”

User:24.7.141.159's comment, as quoted, is by the most straightforward reading a violation of WP:NLT. Your latest comment does not threaten legal action, and I didn’t claim it did. Rather, you suggested that *I* take it up outside wikipedia, which I’ve no interest in doing.

“...I fully expect that this is the last response from you.”

This is a collaborative enterprise. You can no more bar me from responding than you can demand that I not argue with you or other editors, as you’d stated above when you wrote, "I do not want to see any more battles or arguments by you with myself or any other editors in these talk pages. Doing so will prompt me to ask for Administrator actions against your account--it's that simple." Timothy Usher 07:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not here to defend User:24 but I read the exchange on the Talk page. User:24 gave you a warning that s/he would go to the Moderation Cabal. That threat does not qualify under WP:NLT. Just like you are lecturing me about violating WP:NLT (when in fact I made no legal threats) opens the door to the possibility that you are assuming bad faith. Please refer to Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith. I would also suggest quoting sentences in context. Please honor my request to move this argument off the Talk:Islamism page. Thank you for participating and I fully expect that this is the last response from you. This request does not qualify making a victim-mentality inspired statement suggesting that I'm bar[ing] [you] from responding. Violating rules of our community will constitute a reason to ban any user, not just you. Are you asking to be banned? I certainly hope not. Hrana98 07:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to remind everyone that this page is only for discussion of the article. I suggest the editors take the recent archiving as an opportunity to begin again. Let's assume everyone is going to be civil and move forward on that basis. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:27, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I am gonna start fresh. Lets just get some facts straight about the term Islamist. This term is used as a label. People are labeled Islamist instead of just plain Muslim because people OUTSIDE of the Muslim community want to define Muslims and what Islam is. The term is derogatory just as the word nigger and spick (aimed at spanish peope). Muslims do not WANT to be labeled as Islamist, the only label they want is Muslim. When writing an article such as this, everything should come from other sources. Every statement should be quoted and talked about in a nuetral view point.

Also, please don't label groups as Islamist. Regardless how feel about them, when you label deobandis, wahabis, taliban, tableeghi jamaat, etc., you are only labeling them that from your own opinion. If you go to the nigger article, they talk about the term nigga, but they dont label people as niggers or nigga. They only mention factual information about the term and how it evolved into different terms. Labeling groups as Islamist is not recommended. Instead talk about the history off the term and how it came into being and how it is used today. The previous article labels people. It does not provide any factual information about what the term is. The only portion that provides factual information are the portions that were completely re-edited. They include the new introductory section and the basic definition of the term section. Aspects of Islamism sections were edited half way through. The fundamentalists section and political sections were re-edited. The rest of the article is still the same. MuslimsofUmreka 21:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Islamism is not properly an epithet, but a descriptive term with wide currency in contemporary English usage referring to, simply put, the belief that one or another interpretation of Islam should be the surpreme organizing principle of government. It typically used in a serious and matter-of-fact manner when discussing or analyzing political parties and trends, not as an insult or in anger. I, too, use the term, and do not presume either to “define Muslims and what Islam is”, or to deride Muslims or Islam generally. Nor do users of this term apply it to all or even most Muslims. Similarly, I am personally acquainted with Muslims who use the term to describe these political movements in a similarly descriptive non-epithet-like way.

Whether it is potentially misleading is another point, one which invariably arises on other articles about broad ideological labels as well.

Questions: 1) do you agree that there it can be useful to broadly distinguish between those who advocate Islam as the supreme organizing principle of government (for example the restoration of the Caliphate or rule of the judiciary) from those, Muslims or otherwise, who advocate relatively secular forms of government, 2) and if so, what terminology do you consider should be used the former case?

We should recognize that Islamists do not use this term for themselves, but assert that they are merely following and applying the religion of Islam as it was originally intended, and consider the term misleading in that it suggests Islamism to be a latter-day extrapolation from Islam rather than a straightforward application of the religion in its original intent: if one believes that Islam mandates political Islamism, then the term is redundant. Since the article is about Islamism, theirs is a very important POV which must be fairly, accurately and prominently represented.

Your point about sources is well-taken, and indeed there were many such unsourced comments on both sides. We should all work more carefully in the future, and build the article in a more thoughtful and incremental manner.

My objection is to the notion that Islamism-as-epithet should be the overall thrust of the article; hence I do not feel that nigger is an appropriate template in this regard, but would suggest rather liberalism, secularism or Communism, among many others.Timothy Usher 22:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To start off, the article should define what Islamism is. It is a term that labels certain people as Islamist and it is a term that those who are given that label do not give themselves. That stuff can be sourced easily and you can find a dozen published sources for that info. And the article shold give an in depth history on were the word came from and how it involved into its current use. It should also indentify the groups who use the term. The term is used by Non Muslims and Non Traditional Muslims.

"Questions: 1) do you agree that there it can be useful to broadly distinguish between those who advocate Islam as the supreme organizing principle of government (for example the restoration of the Caliphate or rule of the judiciary) from those, Muslims or otherwise, who advocate relatively secular forms of government, 2) and if so, what terminology do you consider should be used the former case?"

To answer your above question; this is my opinion I am about to give so it can not be included in the article unless it is cited from a published source. So just think of the following as a side note. Those Muslims who term other Muslims as Islamists are Muslims who have given up practicing Islam or have introduced a completely new version of Islam. They do not follow real Islam so in my opinion they either do not count as real Muslims or can be labeled as Progressive Muslims or modern Muslims. It is sort of like this. For example, say you grew up in New York City. Then you move out of New York City to a land far away like Ohio or something. Even though you no longer live in NYC, you label yourself as a new yorker. Then you in turn label those who still live in NYC as extreme New Yorkers. But let me just get something straight, Islam forbids Muslims from attacking innocent people, women, and children. So those who atacked the WTC would not count as Muslims nor extreme Muslims, since they violated sacred laws. Islam only gives permission too Muslims too attack those who attack them and are planning too attack them. If somebody is making a plan to attack a Muslim town, Muslims can attack them first, but there are major conditions. No matter what happens, Muslims still can not attack women, children or innocent people. They can only attack their pure enemies (those who plan to hurt them). I hope that clears up some things. My point is that those Muslims who hurt innocent people can also be excluded from the definition of Islam and thus should also not be included in the definition of extreme Muslims as well since they have violated Islamic laws. MuslimsofUmreka 23:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Putting aside the issue of whether Islam mandates what is called Islamism - and I would personally agree that a strong case can be made that it does - would you agree that my description of the way Islamism is used, as referring the belief that one or another interpretation of Islam should be the surpreme organizing principle of government, is accurate?Timothy Usher 00:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My take on the issue is fully outlined below MuslimsofUmreka 01:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is farcical. You're asserting that Islamist groups should not be labeled as such, then you're saying that Muslims who use the term "Islamist" are not real Muslims? Come on. It's the height of conceit for you to assert that this article is POV and then throw around statements like that. Graft 03:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term is very broad and can be very misleading. Islam covers a broad area and people who are termed as being Islamist also cover a wide area. First, I would like to start with what Islam allows and what it does not allow. Then I will explain the term Islamism and what it implies. In the conclusion I will explain what I believe this article should focus on.

Islam encourages Muslims to set up an Islamic government. Muslims are told that in their lands they should run the government as it is described in the Quran and Sunnah. Islam does not however say to take over other foreign governments and establish Islam. Islam teaches that dawah should be given to non Muslims. If for whatever reason non Muslims make plans to attack Muslim lands or Muslims, then Muslims should fight those who want to attack Muslims. This does not mean starting up conflicts, but if somebody declares or is being quiet hostile towrds Muslims and it can be seen that they plan to attack Muslims, then Muslims are allowed to go attack those people. Muslims are told to go to foreign lands to give dawah and to deliver the message of Islam in a peaceful manner. Muslims are supposed to spread the religion of Islam. But the jihad stuff is only to be used when others start hostilities with Muslims.

Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, even in the times of war. Muslims are told not to begin hostilities as it can be seen the following vese of the Quran, "002.190 YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits." posted from http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.190

The term Islamism implies that anybody who follows the religion of Islam appriopriately is a bad person. The term also indentifies those Muslims who trangress the limits as being extreme Muslims. But if they transgress the limits indentified in the Quran, they can not possibly be following Islam to the extreme. The concept of the terms Islamism and Islamist imply those people who no longer wish to practice Islam as it should be practiced (those people who are part of liberal movements), as being real Muslims and correct Muslims. The term implies that people who follow Islam correctly are all bad peole and should be wiped out.

The term donates a wide category off people falling into this category. There are Muslims who wish to setup Islamic governments in their own homelands in the middle east in a peaceful manner, but if they support an Islamic government in their own homeland, they are regarded as being Islamist by their own people (who do not practice Islam properly).

The term aslo implies thsoe who attack innocent people in terrorist attacks as following Islam strictly in the extreme manner, hence the term islamism. But in fact, these people have violated laws so they can not be folowng Islam correctly.

The term Islamism and Islamist is politically in correct. Communists call themselves communists and they themselves say that they follow communism. Muslims do not say that they follow islamism, they say they follow islam. Muslims do not call themselves Islamists, they call themselves Muslims. Do you see the diference? People call hip hop culture black culture but the correct term would be hip hop culture or urban culture.

This article should focus on the term Islamism itself. It should give a history of where the term came from and how it is used today and why it is used like that.

The end MuslimsofUmreka 01:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since Islamism isn't a terminology rooted in Islamic theology itself, but a terminology of third-party origins ascribed to movements to assert Islamic government in Muslim and nonmuslim countries, what the Quran or Hadiths say are irrelevant. Islamic theology is itself irrelevant unless you propose to prove that Islamism is a terminology rooted in the religion of Islam. It isn't.

Any rewrite must include the usage of the term, definitions offered by various sources, etc. It should go into identifying what forces have and are considered 'islamist'.

And stop using the opening phrase "Islam says". Islam isn't a person and there isn't a text that is called "Islam". There's the Quran, but the Quran is open to interpretation, and any quote originating from it regarding Shariah is contested by scholars. You could include information based on quotes of scholars who are addressing the topic of Islamism with the use of Qur'an, that's fair game..But you cannot use scripture itself to formulate your arguement. That's original research. Most Muslims in the world do not take the verses regarding living under Muslim rule as being literal in the sense that Islamic law must be implemented. Considering most Muslims don't even read Hadiths, it's inappropriate to speak of Hadiths in this article as if they define Muslim opinion on Islamic law.

The term Islamist is NOT used to as a synonym for "Muslim". I know of no credible journalist or leader who used the term "Islamist" when the term "Muslim" was appropriate. You've obviously fallen short in your research of this terminology and its usage. It is not a derogetory term.

The article CANNOT contain your personal judgements. To claim "Islamism" as a term invented to demean Muslims is ridiculous. Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term, as does Al Jazeera. There is a legitimate context where the use of the term "Islamist" and "Islamism" is appropriate. The article needs to investigate that context. All statements must be factual and sourced. Amibidhrohi 02:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Amibidhrohi.

Realize that from MOU's perspective, as per his New Yorker analogy, all true Muslims are Islamists, so to him it is synonymous.Timothy Usher 04:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please provide proof of this claim: Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term, as does Al Jazeera. Secondly, Islam is very relavent when you consider the concept of "Din." Din dictates political activism and, if you look at the archives, some of the new editors claim that any political active Muslim is an Islamist. This cannot be the case.

Most Muslims in the world do not take the verses regarding living under Muslim rule as being literal in the sense that Islamic law must be implemented. Please provide proof of your claim because it is just an anecdotal claim.

Considering most Muslims don't even read Hadiths, it's inappropriate to speak of Hadiths... Provide evidence of this claim because not only is it irrelavent but it is anecdotal.

The article CANNOT contain your personal judgements. Your argument is based largely on personal judgements without any citations. Dr. Abdulkarim Soroush's discussion in "Islam and the Concept of Secularity" clearly disagrees with almost everything you've written. He is a world famous researcher and you are just another Wiki editor. Please provide citations for all the above claims. Also, please provide evidence that Muslims do not have a concept of "din." 24.7.141.159 06:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The obligation is yours to prove that Muslims are categorically Islamist. Most of the Muslims in the world live in nations that do not suscribe to Islamic systems of government. Indonesia is printing their own domestic version of Playboy Magazines. Bangladesh, for example, fought a war because the Pakistanis sought to implement Islamization of their culture. Look up the Bangladesh War of Independence entry if you think this observation is anecdotal too. There are millions of Muslims in the West, many who drink and engage in all the unislamic activities typical of those born into western culture. I am one of them, as are the members of my family. To claim all Muslims follow 'deen' is ridiculous. As for media usage of 'islamist', go to english.aljazeera.com and search "islamist", see how many articles you find using that terminology. Do a bit of your own research if you are indeed curious. Because the word "Islamist" is rooted in the West, used as a political term and not a religious ones, Hadith and Quran are irrelevant in this context. Are some Muslims Islamists as well? Of course. Are all of them Islamist in the sense that they want to implement shariah? No way. Please remove the protections to this entry. Amibidhrohi 00:56, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first claim at least is trivial to prove. The English version of al-Ahram has 18,900 hits for the word "Islamist". That's a lot. Considering most of the writers there are Muslims I'd say this is a pretty good proof. [1] The other claims I'm not so certain of. Graft 06:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you'll agree with me that Google simply turning up results alone is not validation for the definition of a term. Another user also has discussed this point in Archives/Deletion above. There are extremely anti-secular papers that have been published in South Asia that are critical of the concept of Islamism. It would be prudent to explore the context in which the word is used. I'd also like to remind you that Al-Ahram is controled by the Egyptian Ministry of Information [2] and a poll has shown that Egypt is near the bottom in terms of freedom of press [3]. Using Al-Ahram alone cannot be the standard. 24.7.141.159 07:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"...a poll has shown that Egypt is near the bottom in terms of freedom of press."

Question: Do you hold that the government or its policies have altered the result which Graft has referenced, such that there are more mentions of Islamism then there otherwise would be? If so, how?

Also, you write, "There are extremely anti-secular papers that have been published in South Asia that are critical of the concept of Islamism." Some editors have gotten pretty hard-core about sourcing lately, so to keep them happy, I ask which papers you are talking about and why you think they refute Graft's points.Timothy Usher 09:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You said: Do you hold that the government or its policies have altered the result which Graft has referenced, such that there are more mentions of Islamism then there otherwise would be?

It very much changes the position. According to Wikipedia's article of the Freedom of the Press, a discussion is provided that describes the poll I mentioned as a way to quantify direct attacks on journalists and the media as well as other indirect sources of pressure against the free press. Under a repressive government where attacks on journalists are expected, the concept of impartiality comes into question. (1) Unfortunately, this has no bearing on my point above that clearly stated using Al-Ahram alone cannot be the standard. Using a single source of information is hardly congruent with responsible discourse in academia. Are you suggesting we change our academic traditions to pander to your position? See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources.

You said: editors have gotten pretty hard-core about sourcing lately

I'm glad that we're finally starting to drop the anecdotal non-sense here and looking for facts in recognized sources. Do you applaud this development as much as I do?

You said: I ask which papers you are talking about

These are papers published by Universities from North Africa to India. Unfortunately most are not available online nor are they in English. Listing names at this point is rather futile.

why you think they refute Graft's points.

See my discussion in the original post that you replied to regarding using nothing more than a search as evidence without examining the actual source and the context of the term. Furthermore, see my discussion in this response regarding Freedom of Press and, again, why sourcing for one particular place is hardly the level of quality to be expected in an encyclopedia. If you have any more questions about citations then please read this: Wikipedia:Cite_sources and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources and Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words. 24.7.141.159 15:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's clear just by reading any of the articles that the usage on al-Ahram is the same as what we're discussing. Plus this is not a google search - it's a search of a specific publication. 18,900 hits in one publication is a ridiculously large number. But since you seem to think al-Ahram's direction disqualifies it from the statement "Newspapers in Muslim countries use the term", what would you suggest is an appropriate one to check? Unfortunately al-Jazeera doesn't have good archiving, web search, or transcripts, so validating there is difficult. Graft 16:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your first statement. However, a single source cannot be enough of a reason to qualify this usage of the term. Do you agree with me on this point? User:Amibidhrohi clearly stated that this term is in general usage at many Muslim publications but both of us are having problems finding any evidence to substantiate this claim beyond Al-Ahram. Al-Ahram, even if it could be considered a reliable source, is only one example. Furthermore, the first 50 results on Google are composed by a large majority of people that could easily fall under the distinction of Islamophobes. That point can be coupled with phenomenon such as "Miserable failure" to see why we'd have Google loading up on the negative usage of the term. I'm opting to wait it out until the original claims are substantiated by the original poster. 24.7.141.159 18:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"According to Aljazeera's correspondent, members of at least six Islamist groups walked out of the joint session of parliament shortly after the president began speaking." English Al Jazeera website.

"Twenty-two journalists -- 16 based in Sylhet, five in Barguna and one in Dhaka --received death threats apparently from Islamist militants yesterday." - The Daily Star (Bangladesh)

"In the hands of undesirable elements, like the Islamists who won the Algerian elections and had to be thwarted or the Muslim Brotherhood that is knocking at the doors of President Hosni Mobarak in Egypt, it threatens to undo the democratic peace theory and is not desirable." Daily Times of Pakistan

"Recently re-emerging Islamist movements promoting the formal use of Islamic law by the state are finding that they now face opposition both from the government and from various civil society sources." InsideIndonesia.org Amibidhrohi 01:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide direct links to the articles. Furthermore, do three articles out of a population encompassing 1 billion people of a religion that has existed for 1,400 years constitute a validation of your argument? I don't think so. 24.7.141.159 09:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Demonstrate that you're genuinely interested in this issue by doing your own research. The names of the publications can be entered into google; once you're on the home pages, search 'islamist'. You are not mentally disabled, figure it out. At least demonstrate your seriousness by counting correctly: that's four sources. Typically more than 4 sources aren't required of a single statement, but if you do your research you'll find more. I merely picked the major english dailies of 3 countries, 15 mintues of work at most, in addition to the english website of Al Jazeera. Every website for a major publication in every Muslim-majority country I've looked at used the word "Islamist" in their articles. The point was that even amongst Muslims, the term "Islamist" is recognized as having a legitimate meaning and context. That point is proven. Amibidhrohi 14:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term merely existing on a Muslim website is not enough for this definition as you state. Muslim publications do not generally dive into censoring contributors and guest interviews of certain words. It is prudent to know who used the word and where they are from. The examples given below are demonstrative of this line of reasoning. Again, please provided specific links to these articles. I have sent Tahir Mirza, editor of [[4]], an email regarding his publications usage of the term. Lastly, we need to know how the term is being used on those pages. Is Islam-ist being used in the classic sense where the suffix -ist denotes a person prescribing to the principle of Islam? Or is it being used to define anti-Western elements amongst Muslims? The most interesting aspect of this entire debate is the use of the term Islamist in the Muslim LGBT community. According to fundamental readings of the three Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Judaism, Christianity), lesbians, gays, bi, and trans ideologies are condemned. The most surprising aspect is Al-Fatiha, a Muslim LGBT organization, being self-described Islamists. So the question remains, if you are so hell bent on finding the Muslim usage of the term, then are you going to write off any usage not congruent to your end goals? 24.7.141.159 18:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From Al-Jazeera transcripts, via Nexis:

Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera

May 24, 2002 Friday

EMEDIA-ACC-NO: 200305240120.320

LENGTH: 512 words

HEADLINE: Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, Founder of Hamas (05/24/02 22:10 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA

ANCHOR: You were accused by some corners in the Palestinian Authority of having links with foreign parties, and that you constantly worked to undermine and destroy the Palestinian Authority.

YASSIN: First of all, it's sad to enter into these diatribes. We're not ready for that. Second, we know ourselves well. We're an Islamist movement defending an Islamic homeland, and anyone who wants to call us otherwise -- everyone praises (ph) which he doesn't have.

Middle Eastern Newsmaker Wire Al-Jazeera

May 13, 2003 Tuesday

EMEDIA-ACC-NO: 200305130220.320

LENGTH: 694 words

HEADLINE: Interview with Hani Al-Naqshabandi (05/13/03 00:08 Mecca), AL- JAZEERA

BODY: ANCHOR: Joining us from London, Hani Al-Naqshabandi, editor-in-chief of "Al-Majalla" newspaper. How do you see the -- what's your take on the explosions?

NAQSHABANDI: In my opinion -- in my own personal estimate, unfortunately, we look at the issue from a wrong perspective. Dealing with the problems of Islamist radicalism is not to oppress it with force but to deal with its root causes. There is more than one reason, and we need to -- and these causes need to be dealt with. One of the main causes is the American injustice in dealing with the Arab issues. Another one is the absence of the political, social and economic justice in Saudi Arabia. There are several issues that need to be addressed, and there are several lessons that need to be learned. In my estimate, fighting terrorism cannot be achieved without the use of -- with the use of force alone. Force is important, but not the only weapon.

There are a few other instances of the word "islamist" in Jazeera's transcripts. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 17:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting to say the least. However, I'm surprised there aren't more examples of this and, judging by the dates, there has been ample time for the term to permiate. Furthermore, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin's use of the word is not in the sense as defined on these pages. Rather, he is using Islamist in the classic English usage of adding the suffic -ist "[5]." This can be backed up from his various speeches in Arabic. On the second example, Al-Majalla is a London-based Arabic newspaper for which Hani Al-Naqshabandi is an editor-in-chief. For him to use the term Islamist isn't surprising. I would be more convinced if Al-Jazeera anchors used the term Islamist regularly but that is not the case. 24.7.141.159 18:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies but if anyone can read Arabic or can search a transliteration, the word you need to searching for is Islamiyya (اسلامي). It literally means "Islamic." Sheikh Ahmad Yassin and other commentators in the Arab world generally use older English conventions where adding the suffix -ist denotes that he is a believer in Islam, hence an Islam-ist. Therefore, Islamic can be replaced by Islamist depending on the usage in Arabic. As I have said before, it is almost impossible to find wide usage of the term Islamist in the Muslim world. The only time it is used is to debunk the implied negative meaning described on these pages. 24.7.141.159 20:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is interesting enough, but it's an analysis and therefore original research. These sources suffice for Wikipedia's purposes, and we as editors have no business making value judgments about them. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 04:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Being able to read another language is not, in and of itself, original research. All I did was read Sheikh Yassin's Arabic and English texts translated by US Government translators and nearly verbatim (short of plagerism) conveyed the idea. Furthermore, Islamiyya has existed as a word for 1,400 years and its translation has existed since the first time Europeans traded with Arabs post-Islam being founded in the 7th century. Merely restating this fact hardly qualifies as WP:OR but ignoring it gives validity to questioning the factual accuracy of this article.

I must disagree on your last point. It is quite obvious that none of the other editors have come forward with being multilingual or having any skill in reading Arabic. This in and of itself puts your POV out of the sphere of NPOV because you are commenting on a non-Western topic without acknowledging non-Western sources due to language handicaps. So far, in this thread, we have learned that in the past 1,400 years Islam has existed, over 1 billion people encompassing a fifth of the world's population do not use the term Islamism. It might be almost non-trivial to do a satistical analysis of how 5 listed sources qualify as an anomoly. Two of the sources are questionable at best and meaningless at worst. Sheikh Yassin's use of the word is intentionally being used by editors here to qualify the definition of this word. Has anyone considered correlation (of a terrorist group using the term Islamism) does not imply the converse is true (Islamism encompasses terrorist ideology)? Ignoring Islamiyya's established definition of Islamic/Islamism is, as I have said before, introducing a factual inaccuracy and ignoring basic English rules. This is the English wikipedia after all, isn't it? I welcome your input and think it is wonderful but in this situation the point must be conceded.

Lastly, we as Wiki editors have an responsibility to evaluate sources. Would we use KKK material to provide a history of non-White races? No and the reasons are obvious. For the sake of disproving Godwin's Law, would we use Nazi material to describe the Jews? No. Although these are tongue-in-cheek examples, they illustrate the judgement calls that are made on a daily basis to provide NPOV material from reliable sources. In other words, we set out to find widespread usage of the term Islamism in the Muslim world as another user claimed. After a full day of searching, we are still waiting for a flood of usage that doesn't exist. Furthermore, Al-Majalla was touted as a Muslim publication in a Muslim country using the term. However, that example failed our basic requirement when I exposed it as being a London-based Arabic newspaper for which Hani Al-Naqshabandi as a former editor-in-chief. As it stands, we must give up this attempt. All is not lost though, mentioning the fact that the term is practically non-existant in Muslim publications from Muslim nations further strengthens the argument of Islamism being a western distinction. Regardless, this article itself qualifies as original research because Wikipedia's definition is being used as the definitive version (i.e. it is the first link on Google searches for "islamism"). Another troubling fact is the Muslim perspective from internal Muslim sources is practically ignored and almost glossed over. This line of reasoning and validation for the term has failed. I suggest moving to another avenue or giving up and agreeing that Islamism, as defined in the contested article, is a Western distinction that Muslims have no established concept of in 1,400 of published material. 24.7.141.159 09:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's ignorance that has you taking this line of reasoning or some agenda directed at making the public oblivious to the meaning of Islamism. Since here in Wikipedia one is obliged to assume good faith, I'll assume it's the former. Above I have posted 4 uses of the word "Islamism", one from Al Jazeera and three from the websites of major daily newspapers in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia. The only times I did not find the usage of "Islamist" in a website from a publication in a Muslim country was when the website didn't offer a search function. 4 examples of evidence that Muslims acknowlege the terminology, and use it when describing a particular group or individual. And those 4 are merely out of the 4 websites I checked, you can search for more and you will find more, IF you're sincerely intending to participate here honestly and in an unbiased fashion. I don't have the text yet, but I know for a fact that Parves Musharraf has referred to Islamists in his speeches too. When I have that I'll produce that as well. Amibidhrohi 14:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ill try to be more to the point this time.The reason we should know what major muslim world languages 24.7.141.159 speaks natively as he said is because he is saying "It is quite obvious that none of the other editors have come forward with being multilingual or having any skill in reading Arabic. This in and of itself puts your POV out of the sphere of NPOV because you are commenting on a non-Western topic without acknowledging non-Western sources due to language handicaps." he keeps saying things like this and that other peoples sources dont really count because they dont have the expertise he does in speaking all these languages, he is only saying trust me they dont have this concept in muslim languages. I think thats called "appeal to an authority" which in this case is himself which is fine but we should know for sure because otherwise someone might think maybe he is just making all this up or something.67.188.110.197

I agree. Anyone else who speaks other languages should go out and verify my claims. Until that happens, I'm the best alternative you've got. 24.7.141.159 03:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For my own part, I am not interested in challenging your claim, but just in knowing what it is. You’d said earlier that you are a native speaker of most major languages of the Muslim world. That is quite a few languages to know with any degree of fluency, and as 67.188.110.197 mentioned in a roundabout way, very noteworthy. I’m not sure I would agree that Pashto or Kurdish is a major language from the perspective of printed sources (let alone any Berber tongue), but (Anatolian) Turkish, Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Malay, at least, qualify as major languages of the Muslim world by any definition and I, too, am curious as to which of these you are fluent, for the purposes of this discussion.Timothy Usher 05:21, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if this seems/is too involved, but I wish to put this debate to rest so we can move on.

A search on [[6]] for “Islamism” yields, yielded 2,930,000 hits. Here are the first of these, in the order in which they appear:

1. The wikipedia article
2. [[7]] - “Group of ideologies in Islam that want to use the Sharia to its full extent, meaning that secular forms of governments and institutions are considered foreign to a true Muslim society.”
3. [[8]] - We know his point of view
4. [[9]] - “Martin Kramer: It is Islam reformulated as a modern ideology. Whereas Islam was traditionally conceived as being in a class with Judaism and Christianity, Islamism is a response to ideologies that emerged in the modern West—communism, socialism, or capitalism. Graham Fuller: Islamism is largely synonymous with political Islam—an effort to draw meaning out of Islam applicable to problems of contemporary governance, society, and politics. John Esposito: Islam interpreted as an ideology to support political and social activism. Daniel Pipes: I think we're all pretty much in agreement.”
5. [[10]] - Pipes again
6. [[11]] - A google list of other articles, including Bazm-e-Tolu-e-Islam and Tanzeem-e-Islami, who I imagine would follow you in calling their ideology merely “Islam”. Point being that google uses the term to organize by category.
7. [[12]] - “Islamism is a totalitarian ideology adhered to by Muslim extremists (e.g. the Taliban, Hamas and Osama bin Laden). It is considered to be a distortion of Islam. Many Islamists engage in terrorism in pursuit of their goals.” It also includes this quote: “It is important to emphasize: Islamism is not Islam. On the contrary, it is a perversion of Islam. The traditional religion practiced by most Muslims is tolerant and moderate, an ancient faith with a rich tradition of scholarship. Islam places great emphasis on virtue, charity, and living according to God's will; it is not at all incompatible with political democracy or religious pluralism.” -Jeff Jacoby of Boston Globe
8. [[13]] - Apparently defunct.
9. [[14]1] - “A Sufi response to political Islamism”
10. [[15]] - The Encyclopedia of the Orient again.
11. [[16]] - An article entitled “Understanding Islamism”, by Rami G. Khouri.
12. [[17]] - “A Manifesto against Islamism” by Michelle Malkin.
13. [[18]] - “Understanding Islamism” from the International Crisis Group

etc.

Note that everyone is using this term in almost precisely the same way. Were we to list and link to all the sources that use it, it would be unacceptably long.

In sum, while it is obvious that it is of fairly recent origin in English, supplanting “Islamic fundamentalism” as we’ve noted, and that Daniel Pipes has played a role in popularizing it, Islamism is at this point a term in the English language with a specific and fairly invariable definition. Whether this is “politically incorrect” as you assert is beside the point. As this is an English-language page, we should use it accordingly without unwarranted hedging.

As I recall, this was the heart of the dispute which led to the edit war, and the article being blocked to begin with. This kind of thing should not have been allowed to hold us up.

So I propose that we accept contemporary Englsh usage for what it is, and get to work on the article.Timothy Usher 02:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is the last comment I will be writing for the next two days. I have school and other things to do. this dos not mean I will be disappearing, I am just taking a two day break and will be back to talk later. On a side note, my point is that the previous article was just labeling certain groups of people as being Islamist and was omcpletely unsourced. I am just saying the term Islamism should be defined using sources, were it came from, and how it is used today. The labeling of certain groups as being Islamist should not be done. This article should talk about the term, NOT LABEL PEOPLE. I will post up stuff from the actual article when I return, too show you what I am talking about. MuslimsofUmreka 02:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.Timothy Usher 04:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I keep starting my homework but then feel compelled o go near my computer, bu whatever. I am figure that it would be better to end this dispute now. I am willing to end this dispute if you all agree with the following terms.

1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims

2.) Cite your sources. In the original article before the edit war it stated:

Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.

The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.

Instead the article should start as the following:

The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source

However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunnah. Daniel Pipes defines the term as, "Islamism is an ideology that demands man's complete adherence to the sacred law of Islam and rejects as much as possible outside influence, with some exceptions (such as access to military and medical technology). It is imbued with a deep antagonism towards non-Muslims and has a particular hostility towards the West. It amounts to an effort to turn Islam, a religion and civilization, into an ideology." source

Others have defined it differently though. "Islamism is a totalitarian ideology adhered to by Muslim extremists (e.g. the Taliban, Hamas and Osama bin Laden). It is considered to be a distortion of Islam. Many Islamists engage in terrorism in pursuit of their goals.” It also includes this quote: “It is important to emphasize: Islamism is not Islam. On the contrary, it is a perversion of Islam. The traditional religion practiced by most Muslims is tolerant and moderate, an ancient faith with a rich tradition of scholarship. Islam places great emphasis on virtue, charity, and living according to God's will; it is not at all incompatible with political democracy or religious pluralism.” -Jeff Jacoby of Boston Globe" (This is what Timothy Usher posted above)

In conclusion, add citations and sources such as that and keep the tone of the article neutral as possible. If you agree to these terms, I am willing to end my side of teh dispute but only if you all agree to the above. Let me know what you think. MuslimsofUmreka 03:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Um. This is no good. Leading off with a dictionary definition is third-grade level composition, and obviously the fact that the term is controversial should not have primacy over the meaning of the term itself. Also, Pipes did not invent the term and you give him undue emphasis without even bothering to introduce his relevance to the reader. Finally, undifferentiated strings of quotes do not really make for good reading and should not form the balance of the introduction. In other words, your writing style is atrocious. Frankly, I think the older text was fine, even on the basis of the critiques you made. I would suggest keeping it as it is. Can I get a what what? Graft 04:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right.Timothy Usher 04:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It doesnt have to be in those exact words, but somewhat similar. I should have said 'similar to' instead of 'should start as the following.' So as of now, no final agreement has been reached and this dispute is continuing. Okay, we'll work on another solution. MuslimsofUmreka 04:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MOU,

“1.) On the top of the article page, put in italics the following, This page deals with the political term Islamism, this article does not talk about islam, for an article on Islam and Muslim see Islam and Muslims”

I agree that a clarification is in order for those who do not realize this by now, above the article as you suggest. However, I propose the text, “This article is about the political philosophy Islamism. For an article on the religion Islam, see Islam.” Or the like.

The difference hinges on this: the page should not be about “Islamism” as a term, but Islamism as a historical phenomenon. We can mention the origins of the term, debate about it, etc., but this ought not and must not be the focus or theme of the article.

Re the original intro:

“Islamism refers to anti-secular political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system, should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. This stance is typically considered a form of triumphalism.”

I don’t know why triumphalism is being mentioned here. That sentence should go. Other than that, though we can quibble over points of style, the general thrust seems correct.

“The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. However, the term is often misapplied to denote Muslims who engage in violent or insurgent activities.”

Again, the last sentence seems out of place, and factually inaccurate to boot. For example, Palestinian terrorist organizations are not automatically called Islamist, even though the bulk of their membership is at least nominally Muslim, unless they happen to also be Islamist as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

A section on the relationship between Islamism and terrorism is appropriate, but not in the “term” paragraph.

Re your replacement:

“The term Islamism is controversial. Dictionary.com defines the term as 1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life. 2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam. source”

The sentence “The term Islamism is controversial” should open the second or third paragraph, as it did to begin with. Similarly with definitions from various dictionaries.

“However, the term is usually applied to refer to political Islamic movements that are considered to have deviated from the Quran and Sunah.”

Considered to have deviated by who? Many users of the term have no opinion on this, while others are split between saying Islamism is not true Islam, and others who like you say that Islam mandates Islamism.

I’d agree with you that in the quoted instances, there are additional POV’s on whether Islamism is or equivalent to “true Islam” that should definitely not be stated as fact on wikipedia, as we are in no position to issue rulings in this regard. However, it is clear that they are taking the common definition as the starting point for their assertions.

There is seemingly no real dispute here, beyond your objection to contemporary terminology and usage, and the false assumptions you believe underlie it. This is not the place for that debate. It’s quite a shame that the article was editted, and then frozen, for these reasons.Timothy Usher 04:38, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. As long as the article remains neutral and cites sources and gives information from all sides, I am cool with this page being unlocked. An administrator can unlock it now. I am gonna stay away from editing this page and let others do it. I just ask that this article remain neutral and everything be cited. MuslimsofUmreka 12:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I can no longer contribute to this forum due to a lack of enforcement of WP:NPA, WP:CIVILITY, WP:SOCK, etc. You, your sock puppets (though at least you don't use these on the talk page), and user Hrana98/24.../etc. are free to hack away.Timothy Usher 12:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as at least one of the abusive sock puppets was shown the door - thanks Tom - I am back. Let's see how this works.Timothy Usher 01:20, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If there is one thing that I do not understand is why are people like Timothy, Kyaa the catlord and others so interested in editing this page when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Kyaa the catlord lives in calorado according to his or her page and i'm certain there are NO Muslims in that state and there is no threat of terrorism there. The other people know nothing about Islam, nor are they Muslim so I do not see why this topic is so important to them. It doesnt effect them in anyway. The only reason I think of is that they are racist and want to take every oppurtunity too defame Muslims and make them look bad. Please explain to me why this topic is os important to you? MuslimsofUmreka 19:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone is welcome to edit any Wikipedia article, regardless of their interests. Don't call people a racist because they're interested in this topic. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 19:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Katefan0. Your remarks risk offending people, and are not relevant. Please use this page to talk about the work at hand, and not the people who choose to do it. Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, not that it matters, but all these Colorado mosques are probably going to be disappointed that you don't believe in their existence. Graft 22:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hahahahah. No really. Hahahahah. Thanks MOU, you made my day. Kyaa the Catlord 23:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Before he was saying if you move to Ohio youre not a real muslim anymore, maybe thats also true if you move to colorado? I think we should probably wait until he comes back cause he is the one here who knows about these things not us.67.188.110.197

Thats not what I said earlier. I was giving an example of something. Here is what I said, "For example, say you grew up in New York City. Then you move out of New York City to a land far away like Ohio or something. Even though you no longer live in NYC, you label yourself as a new yorker. Then you in turn label those who still live in NYC as extreme New Yorkers. " I was giving this as an example of what modern Muslims are. I was saying that Modern Muslims no longer practice Islam and then they label those who practice Islam as extreme Muslims. This was an analogy I gave with Ohio. The anology was that if a new yorker moves out to ohio, then he no longer is a new yorker. But for some reason he keeps labeling himself as a new yorker. Then he labels those who still live in New York as extreme New Yorkers because they still live in New York. Do you see the analogy? Modern Muslims label those Muslims who still practice Islam as Extreme Muslims. I hope this clears it up. MuslimsofUmreka 00:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MuslimsofUmreka, I sincerely do not believe you're capable of editing this topic in a non-POV fashion. You clearly have a strong opinion regarding nonmuslims who review this particular topic. The fact that you're questioning one's motives for being here on the basis of their own religious following or location is enough for me to see that you cannot address these discussions here without carrying in your personal baggage. Amibidhrohi 03:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was born and raised a Muslim and I know from personal experience how that term is used to discriminate against people. Though you maybe correct that I have strong POV with this issue. There are many concerns that need to be discussed with the article. We all agree that the original version, the one before the major edits was no good becuase it lacked sources, citations and it had a strong anti-Islamic bias and was strongly POV from the other side. The term is very broadly applied and it is defined differently by diferent people. The prior version of the article focused on degrading Islam. One thing that is not understood by anybody here is that ISLAM IS INHERENTLY A POLITICAL RELIGION. ISLAM IS A RELIGION MEANT TO BE APPLIED TO GOVERNMENTS. Though the term Islamism has been defined by other people and most of you guys are just reflecting on that. This article is still strongly POV from the otherside. Reagrdless, this is a very controversial topic and i think we should start fresh again. MuslimsofUmreka 04:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is all interesting, but it has nothing to do with the article. Posts to this talk page need to focus on suggestions for changes to the article, or discussions about recent changes to the article. Discussions about how you feel about Islam, or your personal experiences with Islam, or what you think about Muslims who live in Colorado, are inappropriate. Wikipedia talk pages are not discussion forums. Anything that is not directly discussing the article or changes to the article may be removed by administrators. Consider this fair warning. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 04:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I was giving suggestions for the article before, but people began attacking me. So I defended myself. But they did not get a warning. But regardless, I think that the current article is very good. Maybe it can be broadened up to include the various definitions the term Islamism takes from different people. Very differnt definitions are applied to the term as shown in the sources. I also think that the history section should be removed. It lists Islamic groups as Islamist movements based on opinion and it has nothing to do with the term. I think that the history section should focus more on the evolution of the term. The different stages it went through, for example, the term was first used in french to just refer to Islam. Then the term disappeared. Then during the 1970s people began using that term to refer to what they refered to as 'political Islam.' Then Daniel Pipes popularized the usage of the term. The article should also include a controversy sectio nabout how controverisal the use of the term is. That is my take on it. MuslimsofUmreka 04:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Katefan I hope this is at least enough about the article for you not to get mad at me.

It sounds like what Muslim of Umreka is really saying is ISLAM IS A RELIGION MEANT TO BE APPLIED TO WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES. I mean can you really expect that someone will think anything and everything should be ruled by extreme islamic law EXCEPT wikipedia?

He said we all agree that the original version has a strong anti-Islamic bias but I dont think thats right. Maybe it was totally no good but the version now is much worse then that if its possible. its the first thing that comes up on google and its a total embarassment. and the stupidest part is that it sounds like the wikipedia administration choose to freeze it like this to begin with because he asked someone to do this. just because the article made him upset by not being extreme muslim as he would put it. Im sorry but thats true.

Why do you think he will work everything out with people when his new article is up now? If nothing happens he wins dont you think.

You asked what we should do with the article so i think the first thing we should do is go back to how it was before he changed everything to be like it is now. Thats what I think.67.188.110.197

I did it. Now we can change it from here.67.188.110.197

Wholesale reverting is not the way to move forward. It will just get the article locked again, and it won't get you the version you want. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:07, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article, as is the case with over 30 others, has had an external link added to an essay of Martin Kramer. It has been determined that these additions are link spam. When this article is unprotected could this link be removed. Full discussion of this instance of POV and self-promoting link spam vandalism can be found here Talk:Martin_Kramer#Is_Martin_Kramer_link_spamming_Wikipedia.3F --70.48.241.41 21:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't warranted. Amibidhrohi 05:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've unprotected it. Everybody behave, please, or I'll protect it again. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 15:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[19] Do you have a specific source for this? This kind of assertion needs to be sourced, especially if you have something here in quotes. Who's saying what's in these quotes? Please be diligent about sourcing. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 15:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that. Only the part "inherently a political religion" should be in quotes. Here is one source. There are several sources were the above quote can be found. MuslimsofUmreka 21:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There needs to be a discrete source. Pick one and use it, please. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 04:00, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The rest off what I wrote can also be quoted by Islamic sites. Who believe that in the middle east there should be only Islamic law. MuslimsofUmreka 21:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, Islam isn't just one religion in reality. The Shia perspective of Islam differs from the Sunni one, the Salafi Arabic Islam differs from the Sufi-influenced Islam of Bengalis. To make any generalization on what position Islam categorically takes on any issue is wrong. There are millions of Muslims in India, in Turkey, across Europe and the Americas who do NOT believe Islam is inherently political. Do not include your personal perspectives on Islam in the article. Amibidhrohi 23:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MuslimsofUmreka, I have changed the introductory caveat for two reasons:

• This article should not be about the term, but about the ideology as a historical phenomenon.
• To say as you did that “this article does not talk about islam” is POV.Timothy Usher 01:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MuslimsofUmreka, I again request you to stop removing other editors' dispute tags. It is not up to you to unilaterally decide that an article is not disputed.Timothy Usher 01:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This article is now crap. MOUs edits have pretty much destroyed it from the formerly balanced state it had been in and ruined the collaborative efforts we had been making in regards to the introduction. Please cease removing tags, MOU. You label my posting of them as "childish". I find this completely ironic. Kyaa the Catlord 01:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the former extremely racist and biased introduction meant to degrade Islam from the viewpoint of members of the KKK. The article now is neutral and very well balanced. MuslimsofUmreka 01:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I posted the below: "Islamism refers to political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Islamists generally assert that Islam is both a religion and a social system. Many Islamists advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law.

The use of the term "Islamism" is controversial. Individuals labeled Islamists often regard themselves as simply observant Muslims and oppose using the term. In contrast, moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam generally apply the term to distinguish themselves from groups and philosophies with which they do not identify. While virtually all Muslims regard their religion as a way of life and desire to live in accordance with Islamic values, many Muslims support peace and reject the use of their religion to justify violence, revolution, or radical views."

There is nothing racist, biased or otherwise inflammatory about it, unless you are MOU. I'd like to ask any admins who are viewing this to PLEASE step forward and put a stop to MOU's repeated slurring of my name. Kyaa the Catlord 02:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Timothy, I think your revisions are good. I would make one suggestion: The fact that its usage is controversial should most definitely be mentioned in the first paragraph; as it is now it's mentioned way too far down. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 13:51, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Katefan0. I'll get to work on it some more in a bit.

I can't say I entirely agree that the usage controversy should lead, perhaps that's American-centric POV though. But it if helps NPOVing or even stablizes (imagine that!) the article, it's worthwhile.

One thing I hope to fix is the duplicated Pipes quote, and reorganize things a little if not a lot. He shouldn't be the central focus of this. I just have to think of how to do it. Any ideas on this?

And thanks, Graft, hadn't gotten to that quite yet. Please do continue.Timothy Usher 01:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I can think at this time is changing "Islam refers to" to "Islamism is a controversial term referring to". I don't much like it because it suggests that the article is about the term, a theme which aleady dominates the following paragraphs which themselves were compromises. Islamism is too salient as an observable phenomenon to reduce it to a linguistic debate. Perhaps someone has a better idea.Timothy Usher 03:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I open with this question. I have read the article, written portions of it, and I am well informed about Islam and the particular topic addressed here. However, User:24.7.141.159 (and perhaps others) have stated that they believe this article to be clearly "anti-Islamic". For my part, I do not see this. I am aware of several criticisms against the article - the most notable being the topic definition's potential, perhaps actual, confusion of a Muslim and an Islamist. Still, this does not strike me as anti-Islamic, only an area for clarification.

Ignorance seems the root of much bias. Rather than argue with each other, perhaps we can teach one another? I, for one, still have much to learn.

Here is my proposal. Let's take one point of the article - a sentence, phrase, etc. - and look at it. We can ask ourselves: Is it anti-Islamic? Is it justifiable? And so on. I invite anyone to cite from the article the best example of this bias and to briefly explain their choice. Above all, please be clear and brief. The goal here is to make your position obvious, as to a room of trusting students. Please consider that trust. As for myself, I hope to learn something. --Vector4F 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well I think the anti-islamic bias on that article starts right at the beginning, the bare definition of Islamism. Even if that definition is coherrent with original scholars on that topic, this definition is far from how the common public nowadays percieves Islamism. Western media generally only differs between so called "moderate Muslims" and "Islamist" (or any of the other words for it Fundamentalist, Extremist, Radicalist, ...). So public opinion usually understands Islamist as violent Muslim. By expanding that term to anyone who'd like that politics get influenced by Islam, you are peging many people Islamist. How do you call pro-lifer? Christianists? Obviously their religion influences politics, don't you think? Raphael1 20:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pro-lifer is not synonymous with Christian, one can be Christian and pro-choice and non-Christian and pro-life. As for people who want religion to influence the state, we generally call them fundamentalists and if they are Christian then Christian fundamentalists. IIRC, the parallel with Islamism is Dominionism. This was a short aside, please keep discussion to the article in hand. - FrancisTyers 20:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just editted the article to clarify this a bit more. One may be Muslim and not be an Islamist. One many wish to influence politics with Islam and not be an Islamist. The difference which can be called Islamism is two-fold: 1)particular religious views and 2)anti-secular political views. The influence of religion on government is not what makes one Islamist. The Islamist position is opposed to secularism and favors Islam as a major or dominant philosophy for government. I can explain this further, and would prefer to add more to the article. In short, Islamism is a narrow and specific interpretation of Islam as it should be practiced (including by the government). Islam itself is not so narrow and not always so specific.

Let me address the problem of perceptions. I understand the influence of Western media and the ignorance of most people to these issues. I do not believe that the public has even a working definition of Islamism - I think they have a bunch of suspicions and impressions. I think that makes this article all the more important. Most of the facts about Islamists are not attractive to journalists or bloggers. I think the distinctions here are important and the best course is to address them head on. I do believe the article can be greatly improved in this regard. However, it is a speciality topic and will always remain a bit obscure. --Vector4F 01:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vector4F, this is the opening paragraph that I would like to use. However I am not committing the change until we can talk about every edit I made. Cool?

"Islamism refers to any political Muslim movement perceived to harbor anti-secular and, consequently, anti-Western political ideologies derived from fundamentalist interpretations of the religion of Islam. Muslims generally assert that Islam, as both a religion and a social system (Deen), should be practiced as a philosophy by the government. Many Muslims advocate a theocratic political system that can implement legal, economic and social policies in accordance with certain interpretations of Islamic law. The term Islamism is a means to define any group of Muslims that stray from widely held customs and traditions of European populations. The use of this term is typically considered a form of triumphalism by Muslims." (forgot to sign) 24.7.141.159 12:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi 24. The problem here is that the last half of what you've written above is not true. It doesn't 'define any group of Muslims that stray...', rather it defines isolated, fringe groups. It isn't used to paint great swaths of the Islamic world, it is used to define specific, non-mainstream groups. I think you are failing to understand that it isn't being used against the Islamic world as a whole, but instead, to define and categorize certain isolated groups that are truly outside of the norm.

Also, I believe that part of the problem is that Islamist redirects here. I believe that the common usage of this in the media is the first definition, not the one used by moderate and liberal Muslims to describe themselves. Personally, I've never heard a Muslim refer to Islamism in the manner described in the second paragraph. Perhaps this is not a common usage in the modern era and the term has been hijacked? Kyaa the Catlord 12:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support the version of 24.7.141.159. Raphael1 13:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Based on a rereading of the text of the article, I support it with the following suggestion. I think that the last line does not need to be limitted to "by Muslims", it can be considered triumphalism by nonmuslims as well. I think the statement is stronger actually without "by Muslims" since there are nonmuslims who are supportive of the moderate and liberal wings who use "Islamism" in a positive sense. Kyaa the Catlord 13:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kyaa, can you please modify wherever you feel the changes need to be so I can see your version (use strikethrough formatting if you can when you delete text). Out of respect for Vector4F, I really want to get his/her input as well before doing anything. I do agree with you that the term is meant to distinguish between the "Western-philic" and "Western-phobic" ideologies, but the danger is that we paint all Muslims with one broad brush. My thinking is this: somehow I want to convey to people that although a majority of Muslims adhere to the idea of "deen" where politics, economics, etc are under the umbrella of Islam, that the current usage of Islamism is more geared towards any group who claims to be Muslim but not exactly in line with contemporary Western beliefs. In other words, the initial paragraph should distinguish between Bhutto (as discussed above) and whoever we, as Americans, are not supposed to like today. Prior versions of the article, as per my reading, seemed to erroneously suggest that Islam is more like the modern day practice of Christianity in the United States (and Western world) where separation of Church and State is a hallmark. I think all of us have touched on these points before in some way on these talk pages.

What do you think about removing the last sentence completely? I do agree that many nations, religions, and groups are guilty of triumphalism but does it need to be overtly stated? Does it add a bias from a Muslim prespective? Can we modify the second paragraph to more accurately convey this point in a more NPOV way? I'm open to seeing what you think a better version of the 2nd paragraph would be. Someone should page Vector4F so we can get his thoughts on this as well. Ahhh, Wikipedia at its finest. I like this. Good work team. 24.7.141.159 17:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm considering bowing out completely. I've found that my understanding of this term was limitted to the popular usage of "Islamist" in the media and I'm not sure that my grasp of it is strong enough to understand the second, more historic meaning. On the subject of triumphalism, I believe that taking it out completely may be the best course of action. It seems rather superfluous. I wonder who originally added it and what their reasoning behind it was, but without that knowledge I feel it doesn't fit in the introduction at the very least. I try to remain neutral on Islamic issues, I'm a student of ME history and it is impossible to do that without having some perspective on Islam and the role of it in politics. :D But I agree, this is how WP should work. :D Kyaa the Catlord 19:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think another thing we need to take into account is the source of these cries. Do they add to the article? Do they attempt to improve and remove the POV from the article or do they simply have a history of going to any article which deals with the topic of Islam and Islamic movements, political or otherwise, and complain? Is there an agenda they are pushing? These are necessary questions when we deal with these topics. Kyaa the Catlord 07:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey folks. Throwing in my $.02 on 24's comments, above. I'm uncomfortable with the intro as written because while Islamists may, in fact, be anti-Western and anti-secular, this is really more a result of their particular attitude towards proper governance, political philosophy, etc. In fact, 24's version seems to villify "Islamists" way more than the current version does. Personally, I think we should couch our writing so that "Islamist" is defined more with respect to their orientation in the Muslim world, rather than with respect to the West. Obviously the latter is an important part of how certain Islamist philosophies developed, but as above, I'd characterize the difference between Bhutto and Islamists as "progressive reformist Muslim" vs. "regressive reformist Muslim". (Not actual proposals for words in the article, just illustrative.) Bhutto wants to make Islam grow and seeks to interpret its principles in new and creative ways. Most Islamists think things were perfect in the time of the Prophet and we need only return to the principles and way of life practiced in that time to create a harmonious society. Both of these are perfectly consistent with the idea of deen and look to Islam as their main inspiration, but they're definitely distinct, and in a more important way than mere anti-Western sentiment encapsulates. Graft 20:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bhutto? ... may refer to any member of a prominent political family in Pakistan? Raphael1 22:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Graft, thanks for the comments. Can you please clarify what this means:

..."Islamist" is defined more with respect to their orientation in the Muslim world..."

The reason I am asking for clarification is because I don't seem to understand how that would change the introduction and, consequently, the implied meaning of the term. I'm a native speaker of most of the major languages in the Muslim world and I have no knowledge of a word that Muslims use to describe the phenomenon of Islamism as defined on these pages. I have searched dictionaries and consulted five professors on this topic via telephone--none of whom could turn up anything. Would it be a stretch for me to conclude the label of Islamism is a Western term used to describe certain movements in Muslim communities? I don't think it's a stretch.

Most Islamists think things were perfect in the time of the Prophet and we need only return to the principles and way of life practiced in that time to create a harmonious society."

True, but so do most Muslims who don't necessarily fall under the category of Islamist. I could give some examples of extremely Western-philic and "moderate" thinkers who say the same thing. So then what is an Islamist? 24.7.141.159

This discussion of anti-Islamic biases was moved from the archives back to the talk page. User:Pecher removed this posting and another pro-Islamic editor has been banned. It leads me to conclude that Muslim wikipedians and pro-Islamic wikipedians are not welcome on these pages. With that said, I would like to restart discussion on this topic. 24.7.141.159 09:45, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hrana98 etc., I like Pecher before me have removed your recent post because the material is outdated, it is already archived, and as far as I can tell, you are violating WP:POINT.Timothy Usher 09:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not outdated until the anti-Islamic biases are addressed. You've already helped to ban one pro-Islamic editor. Are you now saying this article is completely neutral and address concerns of Muslim editors?

It looks like a few journalists have been contacted by MOU (or some other editor) who are very intereste in how we in Wiki land are handling Islam-related articles. It is in our collective best interest to follow every policy and tread carefully. 24.7.141.159 09:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So what exactly are you trying to say? Especially with that "tread carefully" part.

I'll wait to see what others have to say about this...wouldn't want to banned like Kyaa. For my own part, in addition to the points I've raised on WP:ANI re the Deuterium sockpuppet, the basic problem with your narrative is that there is no obvious point of action re the article. Timothy Usher 10:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it wasn't clear before then let me say it again. I don't want Wikipedia to get more bad press by all of us not following Wiki policies. I don't think any Muslim editors are left here and the debate is clearly still raging. This development worries me dearly.

I've seen your post over at WP:ANI trying to ban my IP along with multiple other users. The most tragic part is attempting to say that I'm user:hana98. Please don't lecture me about sock puppets. The fact is you've been challenged on every claim by me and instead of arguing me on facts, you've resorted to trying to ban all those disagree with you.24.7.141.159 10:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First off, MOU isn't banned. He's been blocked for a week for engaging in personal attacks. Second, we're trying to create a NPOV article, not one that is favorable to either side. Islamism does not equal Islam in all cases. "Islamist" is used by the media to specify between moderate and liberal Muslims and Islamic causes and those which are more fundamentalist, extreme and potentially dangerous. I thought we were all on the same page that there are multiple meanings to Islamism, at least we were before MOU came and started unilaterally altering the article, even after we'd agreed on the talk page that this required discussion. All we want, imho, is to get back to where we were before he started "warring" with us over this page. Is that too much to ask? (removed that, this is actually where we'd started moving forward. Is that your intention 24? I'd like that, personally.) Kyaa the Catlord 12:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kyaa... toally agree with you on moving forward. I'd like to add a few more users who showed up recently into the same boat as MOU for being unproductive non-sense creators. I'm hoping those people leave soon because they have a propensity for dragging out things ad tedium. 24.7.141.159 13:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My definition of Islamism would simply be : Any individual or group actively working to implement sharia. The words "Sharia" and "Khilafa" go hand in hand with the concept of Islamism. While the vast majority of Muslims seek to enjoy their lives in a modern environment, there are those who romanticize over the 6th-14th century and wish to bring a 'revival' of that form of government. On the matter of anti-islamic ideas, it's a legitimate concern considering the huge role Daniel Pipes plays in this article. I'm a Muslim myself, though also a secularist through and through. I don't think there's a single intelligent Muslim on earth who could go through all Daniel Pipes has said and done and not see him as a bigot with an axe to grind with Islam and Muslims as a whole. I've read his works, spoken to him personally too. To have his view on Islamic systems highlighted would be like having some Nazi take the stage on a lecture about Zionism and Jewish heritage. Amibidhrohi 19:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Muslim? My apologies for questioning your motives earlier. Have you read "Shari'ah: The Islamic Law" by Abdur Rahman I. Doi? The book talks about the applications of Islamic Law and gives ample Hadith, Qur'anic verses, and historical background. It is a must read for anyone considering talking about Shari'ah. I would have to say that ideas presented in the Qur'an and the mature interpretations starting around the late 7th to early 8th century are congruent to many Western beliefs. Furthermore, the application of Shari'ah in the Ottoman Empire is also very congruent with our western ways. For example, women given the right to own land and the right to divorce in the 7th century was unheard of in Europe. Hell, women couldn't vote until the 19th Amendment came about in 1920. Reading the history of how close it came to being defeated while Muslim women were granted these rights based on Islam nearly 1300 years earlier. How then can you state that Shari'ah goes hand in hand with Islamism? 24.7.141.159 02:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amibidhrohi, it'd be difficult not to agree that Daniel Pipes and his view is given too much prominence here. However, note that it was [User:MuslimsofUmreka|MuslimsofUmreka]] who did this[[20]], [[21]] to give the impression that Pipes is the main one who uses the term Islamism, and to thusly discredit it by association. My recent edits removed the duplication of his quote, and pushed it down into the Islam and Islamism section.

I've removed the sentence, "Other Muslims take offense to usage of the term, particularly when used to imply that all devout Muslims are Islamists." However, on second thought, maybe I'm just not aware of this phenomenon. I can only say I've never heard this suggestion prior to this discussion page, when MOU and User:24.7.141.159 started saying precisely that, and in MOU's case was offended by the term by this logic: because all true Muslims must be devout, and because devout Muslims *must* be Islamists, the term Islamist can only be a derogatory term for Muslims in general.

I've also removed the sentence from the earlier version, "A whole layout of an Islamic government can be found in the Quran and Hadith", as earlier discussed this is not the case. For example, what is the established principle of succession?

User:24.7.141.159,the introductory paragraph you'd propoesd the reposted thread above is already in the article with only minor differences. Likewise, I'd taken it upon myself to remove the "triumphalism" remark, which seemed out of place. What else about the article does this old thread address?Timothy Usher 22:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any feedback on how the re-organization is proceeding?Timothy Usher 22:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Calling all Muslims Islamists, who advocate a system replacement of secular state laws with Islamic law, is IMHO not precise enough as it would include peaceful groups, who see Islam as a way of life with social and political aspects. Raphael1 02:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you are saying that there is a difference between holding that Islam has political aspects, as would presumably any moral philosophy, or seing it as a way if life, as would any devout believer on the one hand, and asserting that Islam as the foundation of legitimacy and Sharia as the supreme law, as do Islamists, on the other, I would absoultely agree. Several editors who've contributed to the article and to the talk page have denied the validity of this distinction.

However, the peaceful (or not) disposition of a group is not relevant to describing their goals.

One of the problems I have with the current "Islam and Islamism" section is that the POV equating Islam and Islamism is given much more prominance, because there was more text here to begin with. My main task was to restore a coherent flow to the narrative (we've a long way to go) and eliminate redundancies, rather than to add new text, so this problem wasn't addressed. Another is that the placement of Pipes' view can be seen either as giving him the last world or marginalizing him as a lone dissenter.

Other than omission, is there anything else about the article that gives this impression of equivalence between Islam and Islamism? By all means, let's change it.Timothy Usher 02:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]