This page concerns proposed alterations to existing Wikipedia policies to allow the use of some unpublished archival materials as sources.

Currently the only proposal being put forth is the one organized from the Request for Comment. If you have an alternative proposal, please list it here.

• The RFC

During the FAC for Hopkins School, the issue of the use of unpublished archival materials as sources on Wikipedia came up. Such sources violate WP:NOR, WP:RS, and potentially WP:V for being unpublished. Following a lengthy discussion the following proposal for slight edits to existing policies has been created to allow for justifiable, fair, and verifiable use of reliable archives as sources:

Change the following sentence:

All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources.

to

All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. Unpublished archives of information may be used as primary sources if no published sources are available, provided that:

• The reference includes a website that verifies the archive's existence and that the archive is from a reputable source.
• The specific information being sourced is non-controversial.
• The archive is accessible upon request or is open to the public.

Add to the bottom of WP:V#Sources (under the new subsection "Archives") and to the bottom of WP:RS#History the following information:

"Wikipedia allows for the use of information from public archives. To ensure reliability in the use of such unpublished but publicly available sources the reference(s) must include proof of the archive's existence, reputability, and public accessibility. This will allow the archive to be confirmed by other editors."

This is a straw poll to see which proposals have high levels of support. The straw poll begins 00:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC) and ends seven days (168 hours) from that date and time. This is sort of like approval voting—you can support more than one proposal, and if more than one proposal has sufficiently high levels of support, we'll deal with that later.

1. Support as nominator fully behind the community-formed proposal. Staxringold 00:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
2. Support fully support, except who is to determine controversy? --Northmeister 00:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Support as worded. Per the previous editor's comment, if the consensus is that an item is controversial then the item is controversial (at least, that is my understanding).--Alabamaboy 01:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Support As a former archivist, I must support. There are numerous subjects on Wikiepdia where there may be few published sources. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 03:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
5. Support, but do we need to be having a vote so soon? Anyway, I don't see any significant difference between an obscure published work, which may be almost impossible for other editors to find, and an archive. In fact, in some cases archival materials may be more easily verified than published ones, since at least there should never be a question of where to find them. -- Visviva 04:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. Agree This is needed especially given that the level of professionalism, detail, and variety of information required for a FA increase over time. The privisions (the three bullet points) need to be stongly enforced. In fact I have reservations over the sentence: "...if no published sources are available." The unpublished stuff could be better. Witty lama 05:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. Agree For instance, the Wiener Zeitung has archives of its newspapers from the beginning of their existence — which is some time in the eighteenth century. Since that time, they've been the official way of proclaiming new laws and so on. Why should we exclude such a source? I see no good reason. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 06:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   That material isn't unpublished. This proposal is to allow unpublished archives to be used. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

8. Support. There are so many subjects that are notable, but that do not have published sources verifying every fact. This proposal allows much more verifiability and citing sources. I just do not think that we are "...delete the WP:V policy while we're at it?"; indeed, I think that (given the information is (at least theoretically) publically available) it furthers the scope, whilst keeping within the spirit, of WP:V. Incidentally, what is the difference between this and books that are long out of print? Batmanand | Talk 07:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
9. Agree I regularly use The National Archives to confirm evidence in published documents and am aware that published sources sometimes do not accurately reflect the evidence in the primary documents. As a responsible writer I can then ignore the area of disputed area entirely, or else put forward both opinions with evidence or references for readers to make up their own minds. (see Witty lama above) Geof Sheppard 07:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
10. Agree The proposal reflects a sensible compromise between the necessity for verifiable, reliable sources and our desire to encyclopedise all information... Assertions that quote junk archives can get deleted just like assertions that quote junk publications. Sandstein 08:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
11. Support as I stated reasons for in the preceeding discussion. --Jannex 10:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
12. SupportRFD 10:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
13. Support There are many subjects that are notable, but do not have published sources verifying every fact. This proposal allows much more verifiability and citing sources. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 16:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
14. Support. I think verifiability isn't limited to the internet. Andre (talk) 17:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. Donald Albury^(Talk) 02:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC) This opens a big loophole in the requirement that sources be published. It would be impossible for most editors and readers to verify the material for themselves, as it would be available only at one site with limited access.[reply]
2. Strong oppose. The unpublished archives of primary sources? Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war, in other words. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
3. Very strong oppose. Why not just delete the WP:V policy while we're at it? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
4. Strong oppose. This appears to be a way to allow PoV material into Wikipedia and goes against the spirit of Wikipedia as a community of equal editors, making some editors privileged because they have access to sources that others don't. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   Without trying to make this debate a tit-for-tat debate, how is this proposal different from long out-of-print sources, which are de facto available to only a select group of editors? And why would published sources be NPOV?! Batmanand | Talk 08:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   Batmanad, let's try to keep this civil. His point stands, however, Mel. The policy alteration directly requires accessibility is shown in the citation, making this use of archives more accessible than out-of-print sources (the example used from Hopkins was the long out-of-print Chronicles of Hopkins Grammar School 1660-1935 from 1938). The point of sourcing things on Wikipedia is so there is a source to point to if a piece of information is questioned, and archives are an equally viable source IMO.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Staxringold (talk • contribs)

   I am really sorry if the my comments sounded snappy - I really do try to be civil, so please continue to tell me if I am not. Batmanand | Talk 11:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   Out-of-print sources are normally available in libraries, and thus through inter-library loans. If a source is very rare, then it shouldn't used in Wikipedia. The issue is how easy is it for editors and readers to chesck the sources for themselves. The availability of something that is found in major libraries, even if out of print, is orders of magnitude better than something that can be found only in one location. Reputable and reliable published sources have been through a vetting process, and have been available for reviewers and critics to point out weaknesses and problems. Material in an archive is unreviewed, not fact-checked by disinterested parties, and therefore unreliable. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 11:52, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

   Well, first, I agree completely with Donald Albury. Secondly, however, though their use is not forbidden, long-out-of-orint booksare best avoided as the basis of claims in Wikipedia — largely for the very reason that they're not available to most editors. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

5. Forbidden -- This violates extremely basic principles of this project. No original research is explicit. If you believe there is something in unpublished material of value then go right ahead and do the research and publish it. Then we may accept your research and report it here. OR is not okay sometimes or a little bit or only if we really, really have to do it. It is flatly forbidden. John Reid 12:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
6. Fat chance per Mel and John Reid. FeloniousMonk 17:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
7. I strongly oppose, yet with regret. The web is a wonderful vehicle for increasing the accessibility of knowledge, which is a good thing, and I can understand why some see Wikipedia as primarily a way of doing this. But the web has one huge problem: zero quality control. And quality control is absolutely essential for an encyclopedia. We do not avail ourselves of the mechanisms other encyclopedias rely on to ensure quality - such as an editorial board and requiring articles to be written by PhD.s and other widely acknowledged experts in a field - and I am glad we do not. Instead, we have our policies, and verifiability and NOR are absoluetly essential to this end. If we allow for original research, including drawing on material that is not easily verifiable, then we would have to turn to more conventional forms of quality control like editorial boards. I really do not want this to happen. And that means, vigorously adhering to our verifiability and NOR policies. NOR states that if someone wants their original research to be available for Wikipedia articles, they should publish it, and then it can be used. Same goes here. If someone wants to make material in an archive available, I suggest they seek a separate agreement with the archive to publish the archived material so that it is available to all.
8. Oppose As a former student at Hopkins, I would love to see the material on Wikipedia, but we cannot waterdown RS. JoshuaZ 18:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• In response to Northmeister's question, I would assume the controversy would be determined in the same way it is for other things on Wikipedia, community agreement. If one person reverts it without discussion, that's silly, but if a community thinks that citing "George Bush is a certified smelly-pants" with the Archive of American Smellypants then it should be reverted. Staxringold 01:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh, OK. I think that definition is definitive and should be expressed on the NOR page regarding recent changes too. With that above qualifier, I recommend full support and the comments by older/wiser below are good qualifiers as well. --Northmeister 01:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think I can support this unless it states that the cited material in the archive must be accessible (i.e., verifiable). It doesn't have to be online; doesn't even necessarily have to be open to the public. But if an individual requested to see the cited material, it should be accessible in some way. And I think it would help if it were made explicit that published materials on the same topic are preferred. older ≠ wiser 01:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't the statement say that the archive must be publically accessible? I think that covers your concern.--Alabamaboy 02:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It says that in the WP:V and WP:RS alteration, but not the NOR one. Added it. Staxringold 02:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This poll seems premature. I can easily imagine that there may be cases where the use of unpublished archival materials may be fine to confirm or check some detail (such as a birthdate for a person), but mainly as a supplement to published sources and secondary sources. I think the proposal requires more discussion. Tupsharru 10:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• A comment: I do volunteer work at my alma mater Aquinas High School in La Crosse, Wisconsin with the archives. I just got finished moving 79 years worth of history in a room which became available. People do use the archives and it is accessible. Thank you-RFD 11:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tupsharru, I'm always in favor of more discussion, but we just finished a slightly over a week long Request for Comment (open discussion) that was linked from all three involved policy talk pages and the CBB. What more discussion can be had (the RFC went stagnant at the end). Staxringold 11:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]