There had never been any recorded use of the term "Chickenhawk" (political meaning) before the September 11, 2001 attacks; the term was coined after the war in Afghanistan began, in response to the fact that many of those leading the call for war there (and later in Iraq) had avoided at least combat duty, if not military service altogether, during the Vietnam War. Thus "Chickenhawk" is every bit as particular a political term as "bloody shirt," a term used by Democrats to lament the Republican accusation, often levelled at them between the end of the Civil War and approximately 1900, that the Democratic Party was to blame for starting the Civil War; the Democrats would accuse the Republicans of "waving the bloody shirt," a concept which itself originates from Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar, in which Mark Antony held up the bloody toga of the murdered Caesar in an effort to incite ordinary Roman citizens against Brutus and Cassius. Just as it would be impossible to write a concise article about the term "bloody shirt" without making note of its origins, so any article about "Chickenhawks" would be likewise incomplete without detailing the particular circumstances under which the latter term originated.

And a Google search will prove, beyond any statistical shadow of a doubt, that the term "Chickenhawks" was never used in a political context prior to the winter of 2001-2002, if even that long ago (its use began in earnest only after Operation Iraqi Freedom commenced on March 19, 2003).

Not so - it was used many times during the 2000 presidential elections, as http://www.google.com/groups?as_q=chickenhawk&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=2001&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en demonstrates. I've found other references suggesting that the term actually dates back to the late 1980s. -- ChrisO 18:53, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not true. The film American History X, from 1998, uses it within it's political context during the confrontation of Derek Vinyard and Cameron Alexander; Vinyard tells Cameron that he is a "Chickenhawk," recruiting youths to do his "warring" (hawkishness) for him. Although it is a fictional scene in a fictional movie, it is no less a true political usage in this context than, for example, the aforementioned "bloody shirt," taken from a fictional (albeit based on true events) story of Julius Caesar.

Obviously the term must date back to the early 1940s, seeing as how someone says FDR was labelled a chickenhawk. -Willmcw 04:39, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, I dropped FDR. But what about Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and John Paul Stevens? They may not have served in the military, but are they hawks? Are women like Ginsburg who did not volunteer for the WACs now considered to have been cowardly? Unless I hear a defense, I'll drop them too. -Willmcw 07:26, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Likewise, why is Clinton being referred to as a hawk? Alai 04:05, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The article currently claims that "The first appearance in the printed media appears to be a November 15, 2000 article by journalist Richard Roeper in the Chicago Sun-Times." That seemed extremely unlikely to me, so a quick google search led me to this entry for "Chickenhawk" from The Word Spy:

Earliest Citation:

In England during World War I, as thousands were dying pointlessly in the trenches, pretty girls went around handing white feathers — a symbol of cowardice — to men who weren't in uniform. The one group currently being handed white feathers who may deserve them are the so-called "war wimps" or "chicken hawks" — prominent Americans helping to spread war fever today who avoided service during Vietnam. —"No white feather, please," The New Republic, June 16, 1986

--Kevin Myers 06:28, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Months later, I check back, and still the doubtful history of the term is here. To wit:

"The term first gained common currency during the 2000 presidential campaign and George W. Bush's first term as president.."

If you're old enough to have been reading about politics during the 90s, you know that's bogus. It was a common term before then, as even the article then suggests:

"...and a 1992 newsgroup post ([1]) uses it in its current form without elaboration. In his book Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot, published in 1996, satirist Al Franken included a chapter called "Operation Chickenhawk," ..."

"Journalist Richard Roeper revived the term in a November 15, 2000 article..."

He revived the term? He used it, yes, but "revived" it? Clearly, as the Franken book shows, it was common currency in the 90s. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 00:22, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The list refers to people who have been called Chickenhawks. FDR was NEVER called a chickenhawk. To claim he was called one is revisionism. The term has only been around for about 20 years. Let's stick to people who have actually been called chickenhawks during their lifetimes. Kingturtle 07:08, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The list title is "People Who Have Been Called Chickenhawks." It does not say "People Who Have Been Called Chickenhawks in Their Lifetimes." The definition of the list makes it to where anybody can call anybody a chickenhawk and in order to keep the list "accurate" their name should be on there. This article is also prone to partisan sniping, which is why I'm considering nominating it for deletion. However, on the flip side, this article does give us an insight to the politics of America. Brownman40 07:18, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If we're going to give an insight into the politics of America, then lets only list those who have been called chickenhawks during their lifetimes. It will serve readers better to see who has actually been called a chickenhawk. it is a disservice to readers to list every potential chickenhawk in world history. Kingturtle 07:21, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

IMHO, I think I know why FDR was put on the list. It was to show that we've had Presidents in times of war that have not served in the military. And frankly, that's a very valid point. The article itself (list excluded) I think is NPOV. But when that list is listing conservative commentators and Supreme Court Justices, you know that it's just political mud-slinging. My point of view is if we are going to have this mud-slinging, then let's allow to be bipartisan at least. Otherwise, delete the list or the whole article altogether. Brownman40 07:30, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If you want to see a list of who served and who didn't, we already have two articles for that: List of U.S. Presidents by military service and List of U.S. Presidents by military rank. The term chickenhawk was not around during FDR's time. we should be listing names of people actually called the term during their political careers. Otherwise we'd have to put Cincinnatus on the list and others from history. Kingturtle 07:45, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The word blue wasn't around 6,000 years ago. Yet, the sky was still blue during the daytime, right? Word applicability can be retroactive. By the definition of the list, it is accurate if even one person labels FDR a chickenhawk to put him on the list. But this doesn't strike at the heart of this problem. This list is inherently a place for people of different political ideologies to get into pissing contests. I feel currently, let's remove the list altogether but keep the rest of the article. Otherwise, FDR should stay on the list as it is accurate based on how the list is currently defined. Brownman40 08:06, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

well, i need to get to sleep. but tomorrow i will start to remove other names from the list. governors and judges have no say over military policy, and they should be removed from the list as well. a chickenhawk is someone who did not serve in the military, but either votes for war, commands a war, or designs a war. Kingturtle 08:09, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

FDR fits that definition. :) Brownman40 08:13, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As it stands now, the article reads, "who avoided service in Korea or Vietnam, for example Dan Quayle." Quayle was in the National Guard from 1969-1975, and the term coined by Andrew Jacobs, according to an article I find on Google, was used in the "late Vietnam" era, well before Quayle was a national political figure. I don't think Quayle is the best "For example" name to include and I'm removing it. If anyone can find the names of the people Jacobs was referring to when he coined it, they can be inserted there. (I looked but nothing yet).

Kaisershatner 15:37, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

i have split this article up into separate articles. it makes it more clear to the reader. Kingturtle 18:32, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As an editor who can be blamed for precipitating this recent set of changes, let me say that I agree that having a list is unnecessary and contentious. Lists of "people called 'X'" are not very helpful in general. If Wikipedia had been around in the 1950s would we have had a list of "people labelled 'Commies'"? I hope not. -Willmcw 21:22, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kingturtle, I think your disambiguation is a good idea, but the trouble is that you did it as a cut-and-paste. As a result, the article history is all here, at what's now the dab page, even though almost all of it related to the political meaning of the term. Anyone who wants to address the issue of naming specific people will be proceeding in a vacuum, unaware of the extensive material that was added and then deleted. (I personally don't agree with the wholesale elimination of specific examples, but the question should be addressed in its proper context, i.e., what was in the article at one point, what some editors added and removed, their edit summaries, etc.).

Here's how I see preserving the appropriate history:

1. Move Chickenhawk to Chickenhawk (politics). (This article title is at least as good as Chickenhawk (politician) because we shouldn't take the position that any politician actually is a chickenhawk; it should be considered a charge that's made in politics, the same basis on which Poverty pimp survived a VfD vote. Incidentally, that's the reason that I'll be editing the first sentence to identify "chickenhawk" as a pejorative label.)
2. Copy Kingturtle's dab text and restore it to Chickenhawk, replacing the automatic redirect created by the page move.
3. Copy the text that Kingturtle moved to Chickenhawk (politician) and make it the text of Chickenhawk (politics).
4. Explain changes on appropriate talk pages.

If things work as I expect, the page history of Chickenhawk (politics) will show the edits that added FDR, Supreme Court justices, etc., and the edits that deleted them from the list, and then the larger change that eliminated the list entirely. I'll now undertake this and see how it turns out. JamesMLane 22:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, this seems to have worked. I should have added that Chickenhawk (politician) now redirects to Chickenhawk (politics), and the wikilink on Kingturtle's dab page has been changed accordingly.

Another aspect of a page move is to fix links. I won't bother with links on talk pages, but I'll start in on the links to Chickenhawk. It's tedious work, though, and I may lose interest partway through -- anyone who wants to help, feel free! JamesMLane 22:59, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whew! What a job. Thanks for cleaning up the mess. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:29, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The originsection only says when people first started using chickenhawk. I add that chicken means coward and hawk means militaristic so therefore chickenhawk means militaristic coward.

—

— Ŭalabio 22:53, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

Your etymology is clearly correct, but does that really require spelling out? The rest of your addition (and the tone, throughout) was rather heatedly NPOV and unencyclopaedic. Alai 23:36, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We should explain the etymology. I am an halfway there. My addition is NPOV as you state above. I just need to work on encyclopædic.

—

— Ŭalabio 00:04, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

Dear Ŭalabio, Entomology is the study of insects. Etymology is the study of the meaning/origin of words. I also agree that the tone of your edits is very charged to the point where they are quite clearly NPOV. Including the etymology may be appropriate is done in an encyclopaedic manner, but your subjective judgment that people labeled as chickenhawks are cowards is clearly not encyclopaedic content. —thames 00:54, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I do believe that everyone called a chickenhawk is a coward. I believe that everyone who is a chickenhawk is a coward. Shrubya calls McCain and Kerry frauds instead of warheroes — Kerry did not truly earn even one medal and McCain was not really a POW for 5½ years, but was just on a long vacation. Just because you call me a clam does not mean I breath underwater, but a real clam does breath underwater.

—

— Ŭalabio 00:04, 2005 Feb 18 (UTC)

The article as written is quite confusing regarding the relationship of entomology with the chickenhawk syndrome, can someone please clarify this? User:User

All our examples refer to the U.S. I'm adding the comment that this is an epithet used in U.S. politics, unless and until someone familiar with other countries says that it has currency somewhere else. JamesMLane 07:32, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The meaning of chickenhawk is a militant person who has no intention of fighting. Basically this is their philosophy:

You people go off and fight and die for my oil against people to whom you have no quarrel, while I hide in my secret undisclosed location where it is safe.

Simply commanding a nation during war without ever serving does not make one a chickenhawk. Given that Franklin Roosevelt hated war — as all people should — means that he is not a chickenhawk. A chickenhawk is a militant coward. A good example of a chickenhawk would be someone who received five deferments in a war, not because he is a felt that the war was wrong, or all war is wrong, but because he is a coward, who then starts a war by means of lies in which his company receives billions of dollars no-bid open contracts which kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and thousands of military on both sides, one side merely defending their country, and the soldiers on the other side who joined to defend their country, being forced to murder and die for a rich coward who as he sends them off to die, cuts benefits for veterans. Chickenhawks are by definition militant cowards. I shall change the first paragraph for reflecting that.

We should point out when referencing fascistic commentary, that the deliberately mix chickenhawks confuse doves and chickenhawks.

— Ŭalabio 00:38, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)

Perhaps in your mind the meaning has shifted to this particular definition. However, in common mainstream usage, "chickenhawk" does not exclusively mean a "coward" that is "militant". That is a very narrow and extreme definition—one not supported by general usage in the press or political discourse. Certainly militant cowards are chickenhawks, but chickenhawk has a broader meaning. It is not only those who dodged combat, but also those that simply did not serve (whether they were not called up, or whether there was no war effort in their youth, or whether they did not voluntarily enlist) and who support a pro-war policy (but are not necessarily "militant" or "jingoistic" or what-have-you). Please do not alter the first paragraph to try and narrow and sensationalize the definition. Your comments seem to indicate that you have an axe to grind on this issue—please remember to make your edits NPOV. —thames 00:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's exactly what a chickenhawk is: someone who supports war as long they personally do not have to participate. That's the whole point of the term: the "chicken" in "chickenhawk" comes from the slang use of the word to mean "coward". Thus, a chickenhawk is someone who supports war but is too cowardly to do the fighting himself. 68.47.175.214 22:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A doveleades who has to defend against a country whose leader is set on world conquest is not a chickenhawk. ¿Is FDR a chickenhawk because he was a dove who lead his country in a war the Japanese started by attacking is country? ¡No! The first paragraph should make it clear that a leader of a country during war is a chickenhawk only if the leader started the war. ¿Should FDR have surrendered to the Japanese just so that you can call him a dove? ¿Are doves allowed to defend themselves? We need to change the first paragraph to exclude doves defending themselve

Chickenhawk is an epithet used in United States politics to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who votes for war, supports war, commands a war, or develops war policy, but has not personally served in the military.

Chickenhawk is an epithet used in United States politics to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who votes for war of aggression, supports war of aggression, commands a war of aggression, or develops the policy for a war of aggression, but has not personally served in the military. A dove who is bureaucrat, or commentator who votes for a war of self-defense, supports a war of self-defense, commands a war of self-defense, or develops policy of a war of self-defense, but has not personally served in the military is a dove defending self and nation. Doves defending themselves do not become chickenhawks, but are still doves.

The second version is much better. In the counterarguments, we should point out that fascists deliberately use chickenhawk when what the mean is civilian or dove as well as pure non sequiturs as a way of protecting chickenhawks.

--

— Ŭalabio 00:34, 2005 Mar 10 (UTC)

This article is nowhere near encyclopedic at present. It consists of an encyclopedic presentation of how the term is used, followed by a lengthy editorial against the point of view of those who use it. Notable arguments should be mentioned and summarized, not presented in such loving detail. As a first step, I'll remove completely the section derived from an anonymous blogger. Wikipedia doesn't present the opinions of every blogger on every topic we cover. JamesMLane 04:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. The arguments ought to be paraphrased (and shortened), although the links to the original sources, clearly, ought to be kept. Each separate argument doesn't need its own subheader either—it's over-weighing the TOC. thames

I suppose I can see why you two think the article is overweighted with counterarguments, although my POV is that this is bc the argument itself is so weak as to invite many counterarguments. I agree that the article could conform better to an encyclopedia style and maybe I'll attempt to contract some of the additions I made. However, removing one of these arguments because it was well summarized by an anonymous blogger is a form of the argument from authority and doesn't address the validity of the counterargument at all. The point, if not the whole para, should be reinstated.

Kaisershatner 15:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Okay. Made some big edits, await feedback. :Kaisershatner 16:30, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that's good work. Thanks for taking the initiative on this. thames 16:38, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

We should mention that chickenhawks have nothing but contempt for those serving. A prime example is when shrubya said:

"¡Bring it on!"

This was his challenge to the freedomfighters of Iraq, trying to repel the foreign invaders, to kill as many of the USMilitary as they can. While we are at it, we should also mention how chickenhawks support the troops, namely, place them in harms way without reason, and challenge people to kill them.

--

— Ŭalabio 04:07, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)

I think that particular example is covered by the general concept of their hawkishness. A better example might be Bush's cutting veterans' benefits, or his failure to attend a single military funeral during his term as President. The tough question, though, is whether information of that sort is too peripheral to the concept of "chickenhawk" to be included in this article. I'm inclined to think that it does NOT merit inclusion here unless some notable spokesperson (an elected official, a well-known commentator, etc., but not just some random blogger) criticizes such a policy and calls its proponents chickenhawks as a result. The article shouldn't be a grab-bag for everything uncomplimentary that everyone has ever said about Bush in relation to military matters. JamesMLane 04:38, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with JamesMLane on this one—unless Bush's characteristics are shared by all chickenhawks, then it should be left out of the article. —thames 15:46, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

i have removed the following quotes from this article. their proper place is in wikiquotes. if you so desire, move them there. Kingturtle 04:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• "We know who the chicken hawks are. They talk tough on national defense and military issues and cast aspersions on others," he said. "When it was their turn to serve where were they? AWOL, that's where they were...the lead chickenhawk against Sen. Kerry [is] the vice president of the United States, Vice President Cheney."

United States Senator Frank Lautenberg, on the floor of the Senate, April 28, 2004 [1]

• "The whole point of the present phase of conflict is that we are faced with tactics that are directed primarily at civilians ...my wife [who]was fighting her way across D.C., with The Pentagon in flames, to try and collect our daughter from a suddenly closed school, was attempting to deal with anthrax in our mailbox, was reading up on the pros and cons of smallpox vaccinations, and was coping with the consequences of a Muslim copycat loony who'd tried his hand as a suburban sniper...My wife is not of military age, and there is little chance of a draft for mothers. Are her views on Iraq therefore disqualified from utterance?" Columnist Christopher Hitchens in Slate. [2]

Kingturtle, I see that you're an admin. Is there a WP policy that says that articles can't include quotations (ie that all quotations must be at Wikiquote rather than in an article)? Also, is providing external links to POV editorials itself NPOV? I beg to differ. Respectfully, Kaisershatner 20:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I'll jump in with my opinions anyway. There is no policy that all quotations must be banished to Wikiquote. Linking to a POV editorial is consistent with NPOV; we provide information about notable opinions, and, as with other types of information we provide, we can link to a site that gives more detail than is appropriate for the article. JamesMLane 23:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The list of quotes that I removed were not part of the main article. They were simply a list of lengthy quotes. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not states (under the section on Wikipedia is not a general knowledge base) that Wikipedia is "not an indiscriminate collection of items of information." Furthermore, Wikiquotes was created for exactly what this list of quotes was meant to do. Kingturtle 05:48, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I tried to put this in the summaryfield yesterday, but ran out of room:

Someone tried calling Bill Clinton a chickenhawk. While I pointed out that he was a dove who had to take military action, it occured to me that all chickenhawks are fascistic neocons:

Lincolnian Republicans and Democrats almost never call each other chickenhawks. Every now and then, a Lincolnian Republican or a Democrat points out that a Fascistic Neocon is a chickenhawk. The fascistic chickenhawks known as neocons try to make themselves look better by calling a dove forced to take militaryaction a chickenhawk. We should point out that chickenhawks are fascistic neocons.

Those fascistic chickenhawks evidently believe in murder by war for making their greedy selves richer — as long as someone else does the fighting, dying, and murdering.

It seems to me that the fascistic chickenhawks hijacked the Republican party in the primary of 2000 as a way of saying “¡Screw you!” to Eisenhower for ruining their plans to seize control of the nation by warning us with his speech about the Military/Industrial-Complex.

—

— Ŭalabio‽ 02:04:50, 2005-08-10 (UTC)

Walabio, your position is both extremely POV as well as just plain erroneous. If you had even read the article, you would know that the term chickenhawk has been around for longer than the neocons themselves. Chill out. —thames 02:42, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I know the term has been around for a long time, but the fact is that >90 chickenhawks are fascistic neocons making up <10% of the population. ¿Do you see a pattern?

—

— Ŭalabio‽ 03:10:59, 2005-08-10 (UTC)

There's a lot of zaniness in the above, but let's get one thing straight: Clinton was no "dove", by any definition. Sheesh. Mirror Vax 09:10, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not remember Clinton invading and plundering any countries. All I remember were a few limited humanitarian actions. ¿Which country did he invade on false premises for stealing the oil?

—

— Ŭalabio‽ 01:18:38, 2005-08-11 (UTC)

Clinton was certainly labeled an imperialist for the wars in the Balkans. I have whole book of essays edited by Tariq Ali which said that the Balkan wars were just an excuse to expand the U.S. empire through NATO action. —thames 13:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe that Clinton conquered the Balkans and plundered them. ¿Where is the plunder? ¿Where is the occupation? Yugoslavia is better now that NATO ended the civil war. ¿Is Iraq better now that we plunder it?

—

— Ŭalabio‽ 07:15:54, 2005-08-27 (UTC)

Fortunately, what you believe doesn't really matter. Clinton was labeled an imperialist for tha balkan wars, and as a matter of fact NATo and European troops are still occupying the former Yugoslavia. —thames 13:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems to focus too much on the fallacy and too little on why the term is in current use. This article gives an arguement in favor of the term that is missing from this Wikipedia article. -- LGagnon 03:17, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Added explanation for why chickenhawks are perceived to be unsuitable to send others to war: "This is usually argued to be the case because of the "chickenhawk's" lack of experience with the true costs of war, or the "chickenhawk's" perceived hypocrisy and lack of moral standing to force others to risk death or injury when they were not willing to risk their own life and limb when given the chance."

I replaced a sentence that just repeated the previous sentence, only in inverted form, and added no information. I believe it is necessary to explain somewhere on this page (I think it belongs here), WHY the term "chickenhawk" is used pejoratively.

Also, note that under the "Chickenhawk Counterarguments" section that it refers to the "experience and moral standing" issue, whereas the sentence that I changed referred ONLY to the moral standing issue. But also note that this section did not specify WHY there could be an issue with experience OR moral standing.

Gui2u 02:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew: you made several changes to this page of which I kept some but removed the following.

1. You added a statement that the "clear implication of chickenhawk argument is there ought not to be civilian control of the military". This is NOT a clear implication of calling someone a chickenhawk - this is what is being ARGUED by this counterargument. It is therefore misleading and POV.

2. The statement that you added back: "The chickenhawk argument does not, by its nature, respond to the substance of the hawks' arguments.", is not clear. What does it mean?? How is this a counterargument??

3. In the "Double standard" counterargument you introduced clear POV by singling out Clinton for attack by removing the counterargument which was balancing the Clinton claim.

4. In the "Irrelevance" counterargument you introduced clear POV by changing an argument that applies equally to Clinton and Bush by editing out the Bush part of the argument.

Gui2u 01:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed for inclusion into article, a list of prominent right-wing Republicans and military service

George W. Bush - National Guard back when service there meant you did not see combat. Even so, went AWOL for a year. Dick Cheney - did not serve. John Ashcroft, Attorney General - did not serve. Don Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. Rep. Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the House - avoided the draft, did not serve. Rep. Tom Delay, House Majority Leader - avoided the draft, did not serve. Rep. Roy Blunt, House Majority Whip (MO) - did not serve Dick Armey, Former House Majority Leader - avoided the draft, did not serve. Sen. Bill Frist , Senate Majority Leader (TN) - did not serve. Sen. Mitch McConnell, Majority Whip, (KY) - did not serve. Sen. Rick Santorum, (PA), third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1) Trent Lott, Former Senate Majority Leader (MS) - avoided the draft, did not serve. Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve. Newt Gingrich, Former Speaker of the House - avoided the draft, did not serve. Bill Bennett, (author of Why We Fight), did not serve. Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice, did not serve. Clarence Thomas, Supreme Court Justice, did not serve. Phil Gramm, former Senator. Did not serve. Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense, did not serve. Spencer Abraham, Secretary of Energy, did not serve. Rep. Henry Hyde, (IL) did not serve. Jack Kemp, did not serve. Sen. Don Nickles, (OK) did not serve. J. C. Watts, Former Congressman, (OK), did not serve. Bill Simon, did not serve. Saxby Chambliss, did not serve. Marc Racicot, avoided the draft despite a lottery number of 23. see http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=3182&issue=98

Right-wing preachers and pundits

Rush Limbaugh, demagogue, did not serve due to anal cyst. P. J. O'Rourke (author of Give War a Chance), did not serve. Bill Kristol, editor The Weekly Standard, did not serve. Bill O'Reilly, Fox News celebrity, did not serve. Sean Hannity, Fox News celebrity, did not serve. Wolf Blitzer, CNN Newsman. Did not serve. David Horowitz, Right Wing media hit man. Did not serve. Mike Savage, Right Wing media hit man, did not serve. George Will, columnist, did not serve. Pat Robertson, politician/preacher, His US Senator daddy got him out of Korea when war began. Ralph Reed, did not serve. Jerry Falwell, preacher/politician, did not serve. Ken Starr, did not serve. Gary Bauer, politician/preacher, did not serve. Alan Keyes, did not serve. Roger Ailes, Fox News President, did not serve.

The article does not mention the key attribute of the chickenhawk being a prior history of actively avoiding military service combined with a present history of actively advocating military action, e.g. Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, Dubya, et al, ad nauseum.

"However, these arguments fail to appreciate the implied distinction that chickenhawk applies to those who actively and repeatedly avoided military service, as opposed to not merely choosing voluntarily to serve."

It seems strange that this sentance has been added to the "Chickenhawk counter-arguments" section since A: It is not a counter argument and B: It constitutes a statement that all the above arguments are wrong based simply on an uncited opinion. If someone knows of a source that made this claim then add "However, XXX claims..." or something. In the meantime I'm removing it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edders (talk • contribs) 15:55, 27 December 2005.

Many sources define the term as describing one who avoided military service, as opposed to simply not having served. See NH Gazette and Howie's Stupid GOP Quote Page, for e.g. The former defines it as:

 A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly
 when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most
 emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in
 that person’s youth.

The latter:

 A chickenhawk is a term often applied to public persons generally male - who
 (1) tend to advocate, or are fervent supporters of those who advocate, military
 solutions to political problems, and who have personally (2) declined to take
 advantage of a significant opportunity to serve in uniform during wartime.

I believe those definitions are most apt—and therefore, the criticism of the arguments is correct, and the sentence should be reinstated.--RattBoy 15:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--Edders 17:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC) Since you've got a source then I have no objection to reinstating it, although it's worth rewriting the original line to ensure the reader knows that it is an opinion and not a fact. Also, I'd recommend using the NH Gazette as the source since it sounds rather more professional than "Howie's stupid GOP quote page"[reply]

I want to add this picture, but I don't know how to, or if it would violate copyright. [3] Perhaps there is a clearer version that somebody can find and upload. --JianLi 18:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it violates copyright. It appears on senate.gov, and thus I believe no copyright applies.--RattBoy 13:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From the criticism of Bill Clinton, I removed the following sentence:

However, (the contention that Clinton is not vulnerable to the claim of being a chickenhawk)
is disputed since his administration performed numerous unilateral military actions and Clinton
even initially supported Operation Iraqi Freedom. 

The reasons are numerous:

• It's redundant, adding little content beyond the initial sentence in the paragraph—it reads like "He said - she said - he said," which could go on ad infinitum.
• It's POV. Calling the second Iraq War "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is phrasing used by militaristic war supporters.
• It's unsourced. What does "numerous unilateral military actions" mean? For Clinton to be a Chickenhawk, he must be both a "chicken" and a "hawk." The former charge is easy to substantiate, since he famously avoided military service; the latter, much more problematic. The US did participate in military actions under Clinton, as it has under every president. For "numerous unilateral military actions" to have meaning, the number and scale of military operations conducted under Clinton must be compared with those of other two-term presidents. I believe that, compared to Reagan (Grenada, Libya, El Salvador, Iran-Contra...), Nixon (Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile...), and Johnson (Vietnam, of course), Clinton is clearly not a hawk.--RattBoy 13:42, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About Wilson and Roosevelt: some have repeatedly removed my sentence that "(It must be noted that neither of those presidents had been of typical military age during a major war.)" Howard Dean called it "besides (sic) the point." Of course it's relevant to the discussion. They didn't avoid service in a time of war—so the "chicken" tag doesn't apply in their case. (Nor does the "hawk" necessarily apply in either case. Does anyone really think that WWI and WWII were wars of choice for America?)

Those who wish to remove that sentence: please justify your edits here.--RattBoy 02:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anon 67.163.110.126 placed a POV and "Factually-disputed" tag, claiming that "Kerry is not a war hero and Clinton did not apply military restraint." Looks like it's his POV showing through in the tag. I recommend that it be removed, especially because: 1) the article doesn't say that Kerry is a war hero (though his medals could be considered qualification for that description), and 2) the article merely states that "Others...argue (Clinton) was not a military hawk and practiced military restraint."

This is an article about a controversial topic. If axe-grinding editors are going to slap POV tags on it every time it references someone they don't agree with, it'll go nowhere. I'm removing the tag.--RattBoy 11:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fun section! I notice that, as originally constituted, the list consisted only of Republicans (don't even claim that Zell Miller is anything but a Republican these days!), including thet ol' Marine whut gave arms to an Axis of Evil regime and then lied about it to the American people. I'm sure that was an oversight, so I added a few others.

While we're at it, let's add a section to the NASA article, entitled "People who were never astronauts?" I nominate Julius Caesar, Pee Wee Herman, and John Wayne Bobbitt. And under Curling, we can add "People who never curled in the Olympics," including Tiger Woods, Idi Amin, and Michelle Kwan. Now if that ain't encyclopædic, I don't know what is.

Jeez.--RattBoy 01:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amen, RattBoy. Looks like great minds think alike.  : ) dbtfz^talk 01:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do I really need to explain why it's just plain dumb to have a section for "People who could never be considered chickenhawks"? (Anyone can "consider" anyone anything, we can't list every notable person who's ever been in the military, etc.) I'm going to be bold and delete this whole section (unless someone beats me to it). dbtfz^talk 01:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The section was added by one "Frankenfactor." The silly section pretty much constitutes his/her entire edit history. Good on ya, mate, for deleting it.--RattBoy 01:48, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perle nearly came to blows with author Tom Clancy for coming across as a heartless demon. Perle thought General Colin Powel to be weak because he seemed too concerned about the safety of his troops during the Gulf War.

Dean, Mar10,2006

The definition of chickenhawk currently reads "Chickenhawk is an epithet used in United States politics to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who votes for war, supports war, commands a war, or develops war policy, but has not personally served in the military, especially one who opted out of a previous war on dubious grounds."

Shouldn't it read something more like "Chickenhawk is an epithet used in United States politics to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who actively supports aggressive military action abroad, but has not personally served in the military and moreover opted out of military service on dubious grounds" I understood the term to apply to politicos who were 'chicken' ie draft dodgers but also 'hawks' ie supporters of aggressive military action. Alot of the spurious debate here (and the crap counterargument section) seems to stem from the poor definition. If there's agreement, I propose changing it. Whaddaya reckon?Felix-felix 10:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]