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I have a question about the possibly former Calvary Chapel in Twin Falls, Idaho. That church, of course, is the home of CSN International. I know the church now goes by the name of "The River Christian Fellowship," but does anyone know the status within the Calvary Chapel? The church Web site says "nondenominational" but, as the article states, the Calvary Chapel does not claim to be a denomination, and there's a Calvary Chapel logo on The River Christian Fellowship's Web site. I know several Calvary Chapels broadcast on CSN. So, what's the deal? Did they break from Calvary Chapel or are they just using a new name, but still affiliated?

Either way, I do think it's worth mentioning in the Broadcasting section, since CSN was started while the church identified as a Calvary Chapel. The question is how to word it.-J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 20:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's an understandable question, certainly. Neither church is listed on the 'official' CC affiliate online directory that I can find when searching for Twin Falls, ID. The two logical conclusions seem to be that either this particular church made a conscious choice to disaffiliate or was involved in something that resulted in disaffiliation. This note at the bottom of the CSN website seems particularly telling (empasis added): "CSN International is a non-profit, Christian radio ministry and is not part of any other group, organization, or corporation, including those with similar names and/or similar goals." Only God knows the full story behind the change; I've stumbled upon and would prefer to avoid the online gossip, innuendo, and hearsay about it and I hope to not cause anyone to stumble into digging for such dirt. IMHO, the broadcasting section only lists current (and not former) broadcasting ministries. Additionally, we could probably find messages by many CC pastors on non-CC-affiliated stations (CC Ft. Lauderdale used to show the Active Word with Bob Coy on a national Christian cable channel, for instance), but those are not listed. The list risks becoming too large and a list for list's sake. 66.177.182.13 (talk) 01:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that if you were to ask, there would be lots of people who know too. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think that given what is said on their own Web sites, it appears that the Calvary Chapel and The River Christian Fellowship/CSN have severed ties. Nothing further needs to be said about it (there are a multitude of perspectives on why two parties break up, and like you said, gossip is not for a Wikipedia article). I would not normally mention former affiliates, but because CSN is so large (365 affiliates), that is probably worth mentioning. I understand the concerns of indiscriminate lists, but we're not talking individual stations-- this is a nationwide network founded by a Calvary Chapel. I'm going to add it as a footnote below, and separate from, the list. --J. Myrle Fuller (talk) 16:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Calvary Chapel is a cult and they weave a thread of truth to disguise themselves but clearly they do not measure up to the Biblical standard. This article needs to tell the bad, the ugly, and the evil of this organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.139.199.80 (talk) 12:38, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's funny. It doesn't stand any reasonable standard of proof. There is no cult-like behaviour that I have seen. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Same opinion - obviously he has an axe to grind - and that's being kind. As a Christian who has personnally walked into two confirmed cults while church shopping in new towns, no Calvary Chapel that I've ever attended (six and counting) has ever had any evidence of cults. Yes, I've attended CC's that have strong, opinionated pastors who allow little public disagreement with their decisions and could appear to outsiders as leading the church "in secret", but what denomination/church type is free of that? What I mostly see is overall love, welcoming friendship, and Bible-based teaching - hard to argue with those three... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ckruschke (talk • contribs) 20:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have attended four CCs over my life and not a single cult experience. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Walter, google "calvary chapel cult" sometime, and you'll notice that your statement does not ring true for the rest of the world. However, this is a Wiki, and is not supposed to be policed by what your experience is -- it is supposed to collect the common knowledge and published works about the topic. After your prompting and suggesting that I attend a CC last year, I spent many months at a couple Calvary Chapels. The group-think, cult mentality is prevalent in each of the CC's that I've attended. Why don't you investigate more thoroughly why people leave your church? You might be surprised at the spiritual knowledge you gain. Sliceofmiami (talk) 16:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Googled "calvary chapel cult" About 3,610 results. So many on the first results page are not from very reliable sources like forums and blogs. None of which are WP:RS and some aren't even WP:V.

The article is also not supposed to be WP:UNDUE and take your inexplicable bias against the churches that make-up the "denomination" Why don't you investigate more thoroughly why people join the church?

I have no doubt that they have some very cult-like practices. I have no doubt that some pastors are not stable. I have no doubt that Smith guides his pastors very closely. However, none of those make it a cult.

You however seem to have an ulterior motive as you're one of a few who attack the organization.

Full disclosuer: I don't have any affiliation with the church other than enjoying the music that they produced in the 1970s and one long-time acquaintance who is now a pastor of a CC. If a CC were to open closer to where I live, I might attend, but I have only attended a few services of various CCs mostly in the Seattle area (when I'm there) and a few closer to Vancouver where I live in the past twenty-five years. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Walter, I have discussed why people join this denomination, and in fact there are publicly available case studies and publicly available journal articles describing why people join, or are "converted into," authoritarian organizations. You should check it out sometime. Most junior colleges actually provide great courses on behavioral psychology, sociology, and abnormal psychology. Oh, and on searching google for calvary chapel cult, my google provided more than 200,000 articles on the topic as of April 2nd, 2011. It is not clear why your google would provide just a portion of those listings. Sliceofmiami (talk) 05:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weights. So Walter, you made me start thinking about this more realistically. I spent a little time refining the search. Here is the outcome:

• Search google for [calvary chapel] results in almost 2 million listings. But, some of these listings are not going to be CC.
• Search google for ["calvary chapel"] (with quotes as identified) results in 1.76M listings. Again, some of these are not going to be part of Chuck Smith's franchise.
• Search google for ["calvary chapel" cult] (with quotes as identified) results in 1.68M listings. Certainly, some of these are not going to be Chuck Smith's franchise, and some are likely to say "calvary chapel is not a cult, gosh darn it!" as we have seen the arguments on this Wiki talk page itself.

So, from your perspective, this Wiki article should contain a bunch of sentences that use the word "cult". I'll be honest, until you pointed this out, I would not have taken this position. Sliceofmiami (talk) 06:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Googled "presbyterian cult" and produced over 1.5 MILLION results.  :-) Just FYI. Having been to CC's in various states and been heavily involved in one CC (that is no longer a CC), they are without any question NOT a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.94.174.229 (talk) 01:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Calvary Chapel is not a movement. Movements span denominations. The "Charismatic Movement" has crossed all denominational bounds from Catholic, to Anglican, etc. Calvary Chapel's music has crossed denominational boundaries, but Calvary Chapel itself has not. Someone could say they are a Charismatic Catholic, for instance, but not a Calvary Chapel Catholic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.251.204 (talk) 17:22, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are also movements within denominations like a "back to the Bible" movement where some parts of a denomination wish to move the larger body towards some specific goal like bringing the denomination "back to the Bible". That does not fit the way CC wants to use the word movement.

Fellowship is a weaker word but it does imply something like shared communion. Since CCs practice open communion allowing anyone who wants to take communion to take communion this definition also fails. In a real sense, there's no such thing as Calvary Chapel as a church, per se. A local church is not affiliated with Calvary Chapel, only the pastor has that affiliation. He can call his church a Calvary Chapel since he is recognized by Chuck Smith who is the one who determines if a church is a Calvary Chapel or not. Chuck Smith has tried various means of controlling who is and who is not affiliated, in particular, their use of the CCoF as the certifying agency. The problem is largely one of legal responsibility and the resulting liability that falls to Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa (his church). Also relevant is the question of ordination. In particular, how is the local pastor ordained? Chuck Smith ordained most of the first generation of CC pastors and they have ordained others. This is largely a denominational function although the church at large often recognizes the ordination of pastors from different denominations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.251.204 (talk) 17:39, 14 November 2010 (UTC) It sounds to me that they, like the Foursquare Denomination - excuse me, the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, are just trying to avoid the term denomination, in the belief that denominations divide the True Church. To a degree, they're right; denominations match the Modernist ideal of categories, while a "tag cloud" is the more commonly accepted thing nowadays. Their theological and social tag clouds would be how they define which churches are Calvary Chapels, and which are not, thus making them technically nondenominational while retaining some of the attributes of a denomination. --67.0.30.93 (talk) 08:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone except those that already drank the CCoolaid believe that Calvary Chapel is a denomination. But, this Wikipedia page is managed and hostilely protected by those that drank the Koolaid, hence why it remains a propaganda and marketing page for Smith's denomination. I noticed that people have again removed significant negative controversies related to this organization over the last few months. Sliceofmiami (talk) 16:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok - backup just a second. Just because some of us who have different opinions than you doesn't mean that there is any Koolaid drinking going on. Also its a fallacy that all "negative" writings about CC are automatically and deemed worthy for inclusion on this page - I have read a lot of nonsense about CC a a whole being a cult, usually penned by people with axes to grind who have never set foot in a CC. Similarly, just because there are some of us who have actually attended a CC who watch this page, doesn't mean we are protecting anything. If you have something relevant to add to the page, by all means present it for comment. As far as CC being a denomination - I have no opinion either way nor do I care what other people choose to label CC's - doesn't change the church I go to or what it has to offer. Ckruschke (talk) 20:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

My opinion doesn't count on Wiki. Your's doesn't either. Sliceofmiami (talk) 06:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, so would you mind striking your opinion and uncivil comment above? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like they, like most contemporary evangelicals, passive aggressively identify simply as "Christians", the implication being that they are completely pure and uncorrupted, while Methodists, Anglicans, Catholics, and Lutherans are hopelessly mired in their self-indulgent "man-made rituals and legalism". I hate to be so cynical toward them and other such "movements" and "fellowships", but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... PenitentWhaler (talk) 02:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you've looked at the sources. They actually identify themselves as Calvary Chapels. And I wouldn't limit your opinion to modern movements. It goes back to the Plymouth Brethren who, even to this day, refuse to identify themselves as such. Their meeting places are simply Gospel Chapels or Gospel Halls. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having some trouble accepting this, as it seems so contradictory to things Smith has said on the record. For instance, "Though Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa had (and still has) an independent board of elders, Smith's book Calvary Chapel Distinctives teaches that senior pastors should be answerable to God, not to a denominational hierarchy or board of elders."(source here). Also, I've never heard of a senior Calvary pastor answering to any sort of "district manager" as far as episcopal authority goes. From this it sounds more like modified presbyterian, with some congregationalist influence. The links to the two citations are broken, but if anyone could post the original text to which they referred that would be immensely helpful. PenitentWhaler (talk) 05:52, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Probably closer to the truth. Smith was a Presbyterian pastor at one time. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting to you "district manager" question, it is true that there is a regional head/senior pastor appointed to oversee the other churches in his area. For instance, Robert Furrow (senior Pastor of CC Tucson) is the regional head of the other CC pastors in/around Tucson, AZ (to include Scott Richards at Calvary Christian Fellowship, Sam Rhodes at CC Vail, Craig Roters at CC Oro Valley, etc) and thus they need to go to Robert for approval of major church decisions (such as if they want to move locations). Ckruschke (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

Surprised to see my revision to this subsection under Criticisms (again) undone by Walter Gorlitz. The content is not consistent with Wikipedia standards. Walter, please elaborate on why you believe it should be retained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esquire880 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You shouldn't be as their place on this page is 100% consistent with Wiki... Although these criticisms are seen as obscure and obsurd by those of us who attend CC's, they are real views held by a certain section of the population and as such they should find a place on this page. Citicisms/Cultish tendencies and the validity of those accusations have been discussed numerous times on this talk page and thus one can easily look through the history, so I'm not sure its necessary to rehash old news. Ckruschke (talk) 18:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

Agree with Ckruschke. I don't attend a CC, but I am quite familiar with them and they are certainly not cult-like. However, when material is referenced, it is a wikipedia policy to retain it unless it's libellous or slanderous. Neither is the case since the quotes actually indicate that at worst, they're occasionally authoritarian and not cult-like. Again, Wikipedia isn't about the truth but about referenced and reliable sources. If you look back through the discussions here and in the archives, you can see who added those and that I usually defend CC against unwarranted attacks, but this, unfortunately, has some legs. The criticisms are of a minority of pastors (two I believe) and not of the collection of churches as a whole. If you wanted to clarify that, with your own sources, it would add balance to the section. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gorlitz: As you said "it is a wikipedia policy to retain it unless it's libellous[sic] or slanderous." I would humbly submit that this portion of entry meets your own standard for removal. See, e.g., http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7DMUS_en&q=libelous&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=NokTTu3PJunhiAKihfTkDQ&ved=0CCgQkQ4&biw=1235&bih=557 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esquire880 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But it's not libellous (Correct spelling in "international" English [1]). Read the section and you'll see. Stop removing it until a decision has been made. And, do sign your comments. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:59, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In fact I'll go so far as to ask what exactly do you see as wrong with the content?

The heading now reads Authoritarian practices

Cult deprogrammer Rick Ross was quoted in the Sonoma County Independent in 1998 as saying of Calvary Chapel, "I wouldn't go so far as to call them a full-on cult. But I will say that Calvary Chapel is an extremely authoritarian group where lots of control is exercised over the members."

In the same article, Calvary Chapel Pastor Don McClure resists "the assertion that past members have claimed emotional wounding" and states instead, "Calvary Chapels are among the least judgmental, most easygoing churches I've ever seen... I guess if someone's calling us a cult, then they don't understand what we're really all about."

So what is libellous, slanderous, or even inaccurate in that? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:29, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Walter. Though of course I can't speculate on your own qualifications for judging libel my own background as lawyer has included training on identifying this "tort" as it's called in the U.S. As you say, this is apparently an attack on just two CC pastors rather than the church movement on the whole suggesting an inference of inaccuracy when applied to the entire movement, thus making if not libel from a legal POV, then certainly slanderous. Anyway, appreciate your expalanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Esquire880 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. So are you saying that you still see slander and libel or are you saying the wording is adequate now? Perhaps, you could improve the section rather than remove it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the content should be removed. Yes, general wiki policy is to retain content that is sourced, but the sources must also meet wiki guidelines. The source in question is a quote by Rick Ross sourced from his own website, and is itself an apparent copy of a source that cannot be substantiated. Additionally, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." The claim in question is unduly weighted in the article by even being present there without more evidence, properly sourced. I vote that it be removed. 24.8.168.247 (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which claim exactly? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, which claim, the one made that states they're not a cult but they are authoritarian or the one that says if anyone thinks CC is a cult "then they don't understand what we're really all about."? Feel free to respond. Two references. Neither call it a cult. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Rick Ross quote of himself hosted on his website from an op-ed article in a paper (possibly newspaper, possibly something else?) that doesn't seem to exist anymore and cannot be verified by direct weblink as far as I've been able to find. 24.8.168.247 (talk) 01:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The quote is from an article. It is referenced in the article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. That is the reference that I am referrring to as poor and not meeting wiki standards. 24.8.168.247 (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In your effort to be concise you have lost coherence. I don't understand why a reprint of an article doesn't meet WP:V standards. Feel free to bring it up at the discussion board there or WP:RS. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:56, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"In your effort to be concise you have lost coherence." That appears to be a personal attack and I'm not sure what I did to deserve it, if anything. Can we have a candid debate about the topic without that sort of behavior? 24.8.168.247 (talk) 19:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. I was not making it a personal attack simply stating that I have no earthly idea what your problem with the inclusion of the source is and I think of you elucidated your thoughts I might have a better chance at it.

The article seems to be fine but if you think it should be excluded, there are forums for those purposes. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:26, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One thing that would help the discussion is if you would register (or are you really Esquire880 but didn't log into your account? You seem to be continuing the same discussion that he started). However, none of Walter's comments should be construed as even close to attacks. He has been very patiently trying to tell you that the article is perfectly fine per Wiki rules and its presence is justified on the page also per Wiki rules. If you feel that the article does not pass muster, please take it up on the discussion board suggested. Again, if you want to participate in a discussion on that board, it would be helpful to register (or log into your account). Bottomline is we are trying to help you understand why the information is on the page - not trying to keep you from participating in the upkeep of this page. Yours -Ckruschke (talk) 21:51, 9 July 2011 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

Actually this IP is from Thornton, Colorado. I'm assuming that this edit] is also from Esquire880 which would place the editor in San Jose, California. However, I'm not certain that this was Esquire880. In either case, it would be best if the source were taken to the WP:RS rather than argue about it here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have added it since it seems as though no one else is willing to, and we can't really determine whether the source is reliable or not. Please direct discussion to as to whether the reference is reliable to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Self-published reprint of an article. I can't speak to any other legal issues. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:16, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Walter, this is Esquire880, as you can tell from the IP locations, I am not one person pretending to be two (I'm even signing my own entries :) ; I intended to defer to your greater experience on ths issue, but I do want to weigh in once more since the topic seems to still be current. Basically, I still think it's not appropriate for Wikipedia; it's a highly charged statement without much factual basis other than an "authority" on cults expressed it; and it seems disingeuous to say, well, he didn't say they were a "full-on cult" true -- but the obvious inference from the statement is Calvary must in ways resemble or act as a cult. If I said for example, I wouldn't call Person X a "full-on murderer" the inference drawn from the qualifier "full-on" compels an interpretation that Person X must be similarly heinour to a real murderer. Before continuing, I need to disclose my own COI, and that is I am currently Calvary member. Anyway, thanks for keeping it civil. --63.67.248.50 (talk) 00:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]