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http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/10/world/beatles-guru-offers-nirvana-to-mozambique.html

I would like to add to the article where Mozambique is discussed..."Mr. Chissano has credited meditation with ending Mozambique's 16-year civil war and the century's worst drought." as well as...a quote from him..."Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects."

--Uncreated (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the current text:

• In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation. Two years later he ordered all military and police recruits to meditate twice a day. Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM-Sidhi techniques. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped.^[1] Chissano also attributed the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO in part to the practice of TM in his country.^[2]

`

I suppose the we could say, "Chissano also attributed the ending of a drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'" How's that?   Will Beback  talk  23:10, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds pretty good Will...Maybe though we could say something more about the drought...? These two articles below describe it as a "40 year drought...and "the worst drought in living memory". Describing it as a drought I don't think does justice to it. The source article itself describes it as the "century's worst drought".

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-03-02/local/me-1630_1_mozambique-drought http://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/15/world/new-mozambique-ordeal-drought-comes-atop-war.html --Uncreated (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with expanding this is that it is just one person's view. The rains that ended the drought led to devastating floods and cholera. The practice of TM-Sidhi continued to 2001, but the natural disasters didn't end in 1992. It's fine to give Chissano's claim brielfy, but let's not belabor an unbalanced, partisan view.   Will Beback  talk  00:06, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We should accurately reflect reliable sources.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Chissano's statements are a reliable source for his own views, but not for anything else. We already summarize his views - we don't need to go overboard.   Will Beback  talk  20:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For myself I don't see mentioning the size of the drought to be going overboard. The New York Times mentioned it...I dont see why we cant. Also Tobias Dai the Minister of Defence in Mozambique also credited the group meditation with averting the drought. --Uncreated (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did TM-Sidhi cause the flood too? The problem is that Chissano is a partisan source. We're only giving one view of the issue. There are no independent views of this issue. Let's keep it short.   Will Beback  talk  01:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am unaware that floods took place at the end of the drought. Did the TM-Sidhi cause the floods? I don't know the source doesnt say if it did or not...Is Chissano a Partisan source? Does thinking the Maharishi effect works make you Partisan? From what I understand Chissano is a highly respected politician in Africa. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10471626. Like I said, if its good enough for the New York Times...However if we wanted to give a different view we could add the view of the deputy defence minister who didnt believe meditation stopped the war or the drought. "The new deputy defence minister, Henrique Banze, confirms that TM is no longer compulsory in the army, although the practice continues in some units. "My personal opinion is that transcendental meditation and yogic flying did not end the war," he said. "But then I never tried it." Though we would want to mention that his superior did believe it worked if we were to add his comments.--Uncreated (talk) 06:42, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Despite what the president said, TM-Sidhi didn't end the drought. Rain did. The same rain also caused a flood, and the flood caused cholera. Cause and effect. TM-Sidhi may have caused the rain, but if so it can't escape responsibility for the rain's other effects. It's apparent that this is a complicated issue and so I suggest we just leave the existing text as it is.   Will Beback  talk  07:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Complicated or not, we must use the text from RS. --BweeB (talk) 07:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We already do. The existing text is adequate.   Will Beback  talk  08:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Source says "century's worst drought"...to describe it simply as a drought does not accurately summarize the source in my opinion. I think what you originally suggested was excellent, lets just add "40 year" to it... "Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'"--Uncreated (talk) 08:39, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have many sources which say many things. We have some sources that say a little but which we use a lot. Like this one. We have other sources which say a lot but that we use only a little. Nancy de Herrera Cooke's Beyond Gurus has a chapter or two on TM-Sidhi and its origins, for example. If editors here really believe that "We should accurately reflect reliable sources" and "Complicated or not, we must use the text from RS" then I welcome that approach and look forward to adding much more such text in the future.   Will Beback  talk  09:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I must admit I am confused by your post...? I am not familiar with the book you are referring to. If it conforms to the requirements of Wikipedia go for it...--Uncreated (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I can see that the floods have anything to do with this particular point regarding how we summarize the source text...but didnt the floods occur in 2000? I dont think the Maharishi effect was even in effect anymore...the army which had been practising the TM Sidhi had been broken up due to the mandate by the UN in 94-95...--Uncreated (talk) 08:43, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let me get this straight. We think it's important to tell readers that an otherwise respected former president of an African nation, and an avid TM practitioner, has said publicly that this meditation program changed the weather in his country? It's an exceptional claim but the NYT is a highly reliable source. The Mozambique experiment was the biggest in the history of TM-Sidhi. It deserves considerable space, even of the TM movement never wrote about it. I don't see any reason for censoring it. Let's add it, and all other sourced claims.   Will Beback  talk  09:28, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think adding these comments by Chissano are notable. If you feel like other material should be in the article...why wouldnt you add it? For the record I understand the movement has printed materials concerning Mozambique and the instruction of the army. I just didnt think it would be considered a reliable source since it was published by the movement...For the record the news papers have not accurately reported how many people were taught the TM sidhies and taught TM. According to the movement documentation only 3000 were taught the TM sidhies and about 15000 were taught Transcendental Meditation. This took place in 1993. By the end of 1994 the UN resolution called for the disbandment of the army which 3000 of had been trained...so in effect the "greater" maharishi effect ended in 1994. Small groups continued practising but no where near the 3000 that had been taught.--Uncreated (talk) 10:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We need to use reliable secondary sources, where possible. --BweeB (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Am I right in concluding that we have consensus for the following? "Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'"--Uncreated (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but no. If he is talking about the TM technique, instead of the TM-Sidhi program, then this isn't the right article for it. We need to make clear that he says it was "Yogic Flying", not just TM, that led to the changes.   Will Beback  talk  23:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. The guardian article describes yogic flying as an advanced form of TM. The NYT article just uses the generic term "meditation". How about this?

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation. Two years later he ordered all military and police recruits to meditate twice a day. Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped." Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM Sidhi's in his country. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'--Uncreated (talk) 00:58, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The dates don't make sense. Chissano personally learned TM in 1992, and in 1994 he ordered the army, etc, to learned and practice it and TM-Sidhi. But in 1993, a year earlier, he said that crime was down. Was that simply because he alone was practicing? If we're going to spend so much space on this, let's get it right. Let's make it clear what happened when.   Will Beback  talk  04:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're right will. Unfortunate the Guardian article is not clear, it initially says:

The president discovered TM, the teaching of the Beatles' guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, in 1992, shortly before the end of Mozambique's 16-year guerrilla war. It was no coincidence. "First I started the practice of transcendental meditation myself, then introduced the practice to my close family, my cabinet of ministers, my government officers and my military," Mr Chissano, a former Marxist bush-fighter, is on record as saying in literature published by Maharishi devotees. "The result has been political peace and balance in nature in my country." But then goes on to say: The attractions of this to Mr Chissano and his generals seemed clear. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. More than 16,000 soldiers were taught yogic flying and TM, according to Mozambique's defence minister. So were 30,000 Mozambicans, according to the Maharishi movement. In October, 1994, the deputy defence minister of the day, Antonio Hama Thay, wrote to the national military school ordering that, "transcendental meditation must be an integral part of the curriculum of the cadets in the school, as a requirement for them to become officers".

The NYT article(Feb 1994) says: The Maharishi's advance on Mozambique began about two years ago with a team from Europe and India that instructed 1,500 Mozambicans in meditation training. The Government has allocated the instructors a house near the presidential villa where they conduct classes for military and civil service officials and their families.

So I guess the NYT article is referring to the first paragraph of the Guardian article. However I think the newspapers are confused in regards to the numbers learning. I have a copy of a speech given by Tobias Dai, the minister of defence at the time that was given at the end of 1994 and he describes that in total 15000 people were taught TM (i understand in the military and Government) but only 3000 of them were trained in yogic flying. Its a hard copy, published in a 23 page brochure by Maharishi University of Management Holland. So I don't think we would be able to use it.

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.' During the next two years over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped." Chissano also attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM Sidhi's in his country. How is this?--Uncreated (talk) 08:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's put it into chronological order. I guess that would be something more like this (using the same basic text).

• In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families. Chissano attributed the ending of a 40 year drought and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO, which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM-Sidhi. In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.' During the next two years over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped."

Can we add the citations? That'll make it easier to double check that we're summarizing them correctly.

This version from Will seems acceptable. --BweeB (talk) 08:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good...how do the citations work? I can try putting them in...but is it easier to put them in when we put it in the article?...or does it not make a difference?--Uncreated (talk) 10:14, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We can put them in the same way as we do in the article. Just add {{reflist|close=1}} at the end to make the references appear.   Will Beback  talk  10:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation^[1] along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families^[2] . Chissano attributed the ending of a 40 year drought^[3] and the signing of the peace treaty with RENAMO^[4] , which ended Mozambique's 16-year civil war, in part to the practice of TM and the TM-Sidhi^[5] . In 1993 he told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that 'Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects.'^[6] During the next two years over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. When the program was ended in 2001, for "administrative reasons", the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped."^[7]

--Uncreated (talk) 12:11, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that helps pin down what we're saying. The Salon source doesn't look that useful - it just repeats what the other sources say, and may be copied from them, unless we want to add the part about Chissano doing yoga. OTOH, the plan to turn over acreage to MAHEDCO is relevant and should be mentioned briefly. We can also add the dates of the RENAMO treaty and the end of the drought. I'll post a draft shortly.   Will Beback  talk  21:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cool.--Uncreated (talk) 22:23, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry it's taking so long. I found many additional sources on Chissano, etc., and am working through them. I'll post something this weekend.   Will Beback  talk  22:03, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hows it coming Will? I guess where you are its still the weekend and you are out partying.:)--Uncreated (talk) 22:53, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay. It took longer than I expected to do the research and I've been away from the computer more than I thought I'd be, plus other on-Wiki demands. It's a complicated issue. Other sources give different explanations for the end of the civil war, and other accounts of the length of the drought. Then there was the cholera and flooding. Further, the drought returned a short while later. But I haven't forgotten.   Will Beback  talk  08:38, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just discovered that one or more of Chissano's children, plus some children of his associates, attended MUM in Fairfield in the mid-1990s. If any editors here knew them, or Chissano himself, they should either disclose that fact or refrain from participating in the editing or discussions related to Chissano.   Will Beback  talk  19:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will. What policy are you citing? While I should probably walk away from such statements, I'm intrigued to see how you tie this kind of ownership statement to Wikipedia. I suggest that if this is another COI accusation you take it to a Notice Board. This is not the place for it.(olive (talk) 19:24, 11 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

I'm just asking for a level playing field. There shouldn't be a problem with saying something like, "I think we should add more about Chissano's perspective. Full disclosure: I met the man once at an event, but have no other connection to him." Editors on other topics make disclosures like that all of the time. It's also fine to keep quiet and simply stay out of the discussion.   Will Beback  talk  19:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All levity aside. Your statement is disruptive. Please reconsider posting such statements in the future(olive (talk) 19:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

I wasn't joking. Asking editors to follow relevant guidelines is not disruptive. If you think it is then I'd ask you to explain in what way it disrupts the editing of an article to disclose significant connections to people whose views are being promoted.   Will Beback  talk  19:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a policy you're citing. If not your statements indicate attempts to create "rules" for this page-ownership. Ownership statements disrupt because they intimidate, and shift balance. (olive (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Take it to a Notice Board or leave it out of the discussion.(olive (talk) 19:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm here because of Notice Board postings.   Will Beback  talk  11:14, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of why you are here, your request (above) for personal information from other editors based on a paranoia about conflict of interest issues has no place on this or any other talk page and smacks of intimidation and disruption. Please stop. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 11:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't requested any personal information, simply compliance with WP:COI. Please don't accuse me of having a mental illness.   Will Beback  talk  20:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• You've caste an aspersion at me by saying “please don’t accuse me of having a mental illness”. I have not mentioned your state of mind and you know it. Please strike that comment immediately.
• You requested personal information of other editors when you said (bold added by me for emphasis): “If any editors here knew them, or Chissano himself, they should either disclose that fact or refrain from participating in the editing or discussions related to Chissano.” Asking random editors to disclose an alleged relationship with a person and his children, who are not even the topic of the article and telling editors to give that personal information or leave, is a clear act of intimidation and ownership.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 02:18, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You said my concerns were paranoia. Paranoia is a mental disorder. If you'd withdraw that comment I'd certain appreciate it.

Once again, I'm asking for compliance with WP:COI. The Chissano children apparently attended MUM and lived in Fairfield for a number of years.   Will Beback  talk  02:25, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

paranoia is not a mental disorder but rather "a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear" and anxiety and fear are common human emotions that we all have. However to satisfy your concern, I have stricken the word "paranoia" from my original comment. Please return the favor and honor my request to strike your accusation. Thank you.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:12, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it's unwise for us to start commenting on the mental or spiritual failings of other editors. Thank you for striking through your accusation, I've done the same to my complaint.

Since no one has disclosed any connection to the Chissanos here I assume, in good faith, that no one actively editing issues related to them is acquainted with them, through MUM, Fairfield, or elsewhere.   Will Beback  talk  00:36, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation and yogic flying ^[1] along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families.^[2] In October of that year the armed opposition, RENAMO, signed a peace treaty ending a 16-year civil war. Two months later what was described as the worst drought of the century across southeastern Africa ended with heavy rains that also causing flooding and cholera outbreaks.^[3] According to Maharishi literature, Chissano said that the meditation practice led to "political peace and balance in nature.^[1] In 1993, Chissano told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that "Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects."^[2] However, a deputy defence minister said he did not believe the TM and yogic flying had ended the war.^[1] Some commentators say that RENAMO started negotiations because their funding had been cut off by the South African government in 1990.^[4] A diplomat serving as the United Nations' special representative said in 1993 that many in the country thought God had ended the drought as a sign of favor over signing the peace treaty.^[4] In 1993, Chissano received an honorary degree from one of the movement's universities.^[5] His son and the children of cabinet members went on to attend Maharishi University of Management on scholarship.^[2] In addition, Chissano entered into an agreement to turn over control of 25% of the arable land in Mozambique to the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company,^[6] but the agreement was nullified when it became public in 1994.^[7] Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. In 2001, the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped".^[1] When the program ended in 2001, for what the local Maharishi center described as "administrative reasons", some individual units maintained the practice.^[1]

^{[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]}

Sorry this took so long. This is a more comprehensive of the treatment of the Chissano/Mozambique involvement with TM-Sidhi. While it is long, this represents the largest single group practice of TM-Sidhi so it's worth thorough coverage. Any comments?   Will Beback  talk  04:51, 16 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Will, I appreciate that you put a lot of time into this researching this…however I think that we should only use sources that talk about the Maharishi effect or Yogic Flying since this is an article obout TM Sidhi, Yogic Flying and the Maharishi effect. It seems to me to be a form of OR to add sources that don’t talk about the Maharishi effect. --Uncreated (talk) 03:53, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, we have a situation in which a partisan is making an extraordinary claim. Other competent commentators have different views. NPOV requires that we include all significant points of view on an issue. If we're going say that someone believes that the rain may have been caused by the ME, then we'd be remiss to omit the fact that there are other views. And there are other issues that relate directly to Chissano's promotion of TM and TM-Sidhi. Any other comments?   Will Beback  talk  06:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said earlier does thinking the maharishi effect works make you partisan? Which competent commentators have different views of the Maharishi effect in regards to Mozambique? NPOV requires that we accurately summarize relevant sources. --Uncreated (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

UN-appointed diplomats have some competence on the issue of the Mozambique peace treaty, for example. Receiving compensation, like university scholarships to American schools, is an intrinsic factor. Promoting a cause, such as signing over 1/4 of the nation, was a partisan activity that was not supported by the populous.   Will Beback  talk  11:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point me to where the UN-appointed diplomats comment on the Maharishi effect? Receiving compensation, like university scholarships to American schools, is an intrinsic factor. According to who? What does this have to do with the Maharishi effect/Sidhi Programme? "Signing over 1/4 of the nation, was a partisan activity that was not supported by the populous" What does this have to do with the Maharishi effect/Sidhi Programme...? Please provide sources that explain the relevancy...other wise as far as I can see its OR. If someone like the New York Times or Guardian thinks that his thoughts about the Maharishi effect where influenced by the movement etc...we should site it, if not I don't think we should. I can see how these points would be relevant in other articles...just not this one.--Uncreated (talk) 02:59, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This particular paragraph concerns Chissano's claim that the peace treaty and the rain were the result of practicing TM and TM-Sidhi. However there are other significant views about the causes of those events. Per NPOV, we should include all significant points of view, not just Chissano's. Readers should also be aware that Chissano had unusual financial connections with the TM movement at the same time as he was making these assertions. BTW, someone said that the program actually ended or was curtailed before 2001 - do we have a source for that?   Will Beback  talk  04:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This particular paragraph concerns Chissano's thoughts on the Maharishi effect/TM sidhi programme and how they influenced his country. Yes, that is why it is notable to this article...however the UN appointed diplomats thoughts on what the population thought about god and the ending of the drought would be appropriate in the god ending droughts article...not this one. If we have other peoples points of view about the Maharishi effect and Mozambique then we should add those...however if we do not then we should not have them. I think it is appropriate to comment on the deputy minister of defences thoughts on the Maharishi effect...however we should also then have the minister of defences thoughts on the Maharishi effect. I think since the New York times article describes both Chissanos thoughts on the maharishi effect and the land development in conjunction with the movement we should have something in there about that... but I don't think its relevant to mention his children going to mum or he receiving an honorary doctorate etc....If we want to we can ad them to the article on Chissano. The points that are made by the 3rd and 4th sources are not vaild because the article does not mention or are concerned with the Maharishi effect. They could be made in the article about Mozambique I think. --Uncreated (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another source that may be relevant to these discussions on Chissano:

• [And how did the civil war eventually end? Maybe it was all down to the Beatles, or at least their teacher of transcendental meditation, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. In 1992 he was invited to Maputo by President Chissano, who is quoted as saying: "The result has been political peace and balance in nature in my country."][1]-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:13, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• This particular paragraph concerns Chissano's thoughts on the Maharishi effect/TM sidhi programme and how they influenced his country.

No, this paragraph concerns the very large, long-term group practice of the TM-Sidhi program in Mozambique, and its possible effects on the country's civil war and its climate. Chissano has his views on that topic, but those aren't the only views. NPOV requires that we include all significant views.   Will Beback  talk  22:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will, they do not have a few on the "long-term group practice of the TM-Sidhi program in Mozambique, and its possible effects on the country's civil war and its climate." They only have a few on "the country's civil war and its climate." This article is about "long-term group practice of the TM-Sidhi program in Mozambique, and its possible effects on the country's civil war and its climate." Their views should go in the article about "the country's(Mozambique) civil war and its climate."--Uncreated (talk) 22:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When people are saying that the war ended because the rebel's funding was cut off, that's also a statement that it was not caused by Chissano's meditation. If we have one source that says the ball is blue, then second source which says it is red is also implicitly saying it is not blue, and so contradicts the first source.   Will Beback  talk  23:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"When people are saying that the war ended because the rebel's funding was cut off, that's also a statement that it was not caused by Chissano's meditation." Sounds like Original Research to me.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 11:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

to go back to the analogy I used before, Chissano is saying that "the ball is blue". If there are sources that say "the ball is red" then they are also saying, by implication, that the ball is not blue. On the question of whether the ball is blue or not, the mention of other possible colors is appropriate. It would be original research if there was a significant reason to doubt that the sources were discussing the same ball, but I think the two issues here, the peace treaty and the rain, are clear enough that there's no confusion.   Will Beback  talk  20:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your analogy is an excellent description of Original Research which states: "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources." -- — Keithbob • Talk • 02:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which original conclusions does the draft make?   Will Beback  talk  03:25, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have 2 main sources of information (NYT article and Guardian Article) that deal with the Maharishi effect/TM Sidhi Programme and Mozambique. The other sources that have been used in the draft do not have any information about the Maharishi effect/TM Sidhi Programme, they only have information about Mozambique.

The other sources could not be used this article about the Maharishi effect/TM Sidhi Programme independently of the NYT article and Guardian article because they have no information that we could source about the Maharishi effect/TM Sidhi Programme. As such we are using them “to to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources (NYT article and Guardian Article)” that actually have information about the Maharishi effect/TM Sidhi Programme.

I can’t speak for Keithbob, but that is my thinking.--Uncreated (talk) 09:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:32, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that these "concurrences" really have much weight.

As far as the sources go, every one of them is about Chissano, the civil war, or the drought. They are all reliable sources. The paragraph in question concerns the view that the Maharishi Effect was responsible for both the end of the war and the end of the drought. We can't just give side. NPOV requires that we include all significant views. As a compromise, I'd be willing to leave out the extensive and somewhat bizarre financial ties between Chissano and the TM movement. But we need to keep in the other views on the civil war and drought.   Will Beback  talk  04:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the proposed draft also has NPOV issues, but let's finish the discussion on OR first. Since we are not making any progress on the OR issue I have asked for community input on the OR noticeboard. Here is the link:[2]-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:09, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Keithbob.--Uncreated (talk) 19:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation and yogic flying ^[1] along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families.^[2] In October of that year the armed opposition, RENAMO, signed a peace treaty ending a 16-year civil war. Two months later what was described as the worst drought of the century across southeastern Africa ended.^[3] According to Maharishi literature, Chissano said that the meditation practice led to "political peace and balance in nature.^[1] In 1993, Chissano told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that "Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects."^[2] However, a deputy defence minister said he did not believe the TM and yogic flying had ended the war.^[1] In 1993, Chissano received an honorary degree from one of the movement's universities.^[4][5] His son and the children of cabinet members went on to attend Maharishi University of Management on scholarship.^[2] In addition, Chissano entered into an agreement to turn over control of 25% of the arable land in Mozambique to the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company, but the agreement was nullified when it became public in 1994.^[5] Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. In 2001, the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped".^[1] When the program ended in 2001, for what the local Maharishi center described as "administrative reasons", some individual units maintained the practice.^[1]

^{[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]}

Here is a second draft with the disputed material removed. Comments?   Will Beback  talk  09:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we still have material about "honorary degree" and family attending MUM? What has this got to do with TM-Sidhi and the ME? --BweeB (talk) 15:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

From the feedback at WP:NORN: "Otherwise the business of the children would be just drawing inferences without a source." TimidGuy (talk) 15:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Joaquim Chissano article is the place for all this stuff about hie awards and family. --BweeB (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The response at NORN is that if the RS mentions it in the context of discussing the ME then it's appropriate to include. Something talking about the TM claims for ending the war and financial problems sounds eminently suitable and is the sort of thing you need if it ties them together in some way. It could also possibly be used to justify including the business about the children and the TM university as well. The material is relevant: Chissano is no scientist. He was a member of the TM movement who was receiving financial and other benefits from the movement. The discussion of these entanglements is brief.   Will Beback  talk  18:34, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any further comments?   Will Beback  talk  21:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Something talking about the TM claims for ending the war and financial problems sounds eminently suitable and is the sort of thing you need if it ties them together in some way. It refers to a source tying them together. If the source doesn't make an explicit connection and you make a connection in the article you are synthesizing content and creating OR. And you've left out the line which clearly indicates the it means the source,

Something talking about the TM claims for ending the war and financial problems sounds eminently suitable and is the sort of thing you need if it ties them together in some way. It could also possibly be used to justify including the business about the children and the TM university as well. Otherwise the business of the children would be just drawing inferences without a source

When he says drawing inferences with out a sources I believe he means OR. So the content you are suggesting cannot be used. (olive (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

But the source (cite#5) does make an explicit connection. It appears that the article is not online - would you like me to mail you a copy?   Will Beback  talk  22:21, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This has nothing to do with the ME/Yogic Flying: In 1993, Chissano received an honorary degree from one of the movement's universities.[4][5] His son and the children of cabinet members went on to attend Maharishi University of Management on scholarship.[2] Where is Yogic flying or ME mentioned in this content? This is creating by inference information about the TM org and the university. Unless you can find a source that explicitly makes that connection you can't use that kind of content in an article. To do so is synthesizing content and creates OR. And thanks very much for the offer of sending the source. :O)(olive (talk) 16:26, 4 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

" Unless you can find a source that explicitly makes that connection you can't use that kind of content in an article."

But that's what I'm saying. The Van Niekerk article does connect these issues, covering them together in the same way that this draft does. Have you read that article? It's no original research to correctly summarize a source.   Will Beback  talk  21:43, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Our job isn't to summarize sources, its to summarize sources that explicitly reference the topic of the article or possibly section. Does the source tie together Chissano's children, where they went to school, and the ME. As far as I'm concerned you can add this content. I note a growing concern with your support of OR here and else where. Either there is a lack of understanding, I am not explaining myself well enough, or you know what is OR but want to add it anyway. Either way we are at an impasse so I will back off and suggest you add what you feel is right. (olive (talk) 20:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

You've avoided answering the basic question of whether you've read the source being summarized. If a source says, X+Y=Z (or something like that), then it's not original research to mention X and Y in an article about Z. Less abstractly, if a source on Chissano's views of TM/TM-Sidhi discusses his financial involvements with the TM movement, then it's not OR to mention them here using that source. Maybe we don't share an understanding of WP:NOR. Could you please cite the passage that you think this draft violates? Then we'd be working from the same definition.   Will Beback  talk  21:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will. Its really tiring having you constantly infer some nefarious dealings on the parts of editors because they bypass your questions for whatever numerous reasons. I thanked you for your kind offer of providing the source, and thought that was the end of it. I have the source. I don't see that the inference made in this article, that somehow the fact that Chissano's children went to MUM is somehow connected to the TM Sidhi program. Synthesizing those two pieces of material together creates something the source to me does not seem to be saying. "Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context." The source seem to indicate this is only biographical background. and infers nothing more. But since I have agreed in this instance to include the disputed material I have no desire to keep rehashing this point.(olive (talk) 22:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Thanks, I have trouble guessing what you mean sometimes. Your emoticon ":O)" was mysterious to me. Let's post the relevant material here in case anyone hasn't seen the article:

• The victory of President Joaquim Chissano in his country's October elections could open the way for devotees of the Maharishi Mashesh Yogi, one-time guru of the Beatles, to implement a spiritual and agricultural Utopia in the world's poorest country. Chissano is an enthusiastic practitioner of Transcendental Meditation, into which teaching he has roped his family and a large section of Mozambique's ruling elite. On receiving an honorary doctorate last year from the Maharishi Vedic University in Vlodrop, Holland, Chissano credited the 'technology of consciousness' with bringing peace to his country, lowering the crime and accident rates, and bringing good rains to the countryside. He even sent thousands of soldiers on meditation courses and, he claimed, 'a positive effect was felt throughout the country'. His honorary degree was awarded for 'adopting the TM programme in such a way that he calmed down the whole population'. Encouraged by sympathisers in such high places, the Dutch-based Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company (Mahedco) has asked Maputo for permission to implement an ambitious plan to develop 20 million hectares of Mozambican territory - almost a quarter of the countryside. Mahedco wants to plant cotton, timber, mangoes and pawpaws, rebuild the infrastructure of the country, and set up a national health scheme based on 'natural' holistic medicine. It is nothing less than a holistic cure for an entire country, one that was at war non-stop from 1964 to 1991. 'But first we need to revive the consciousness of people,' Mahedco chief executive Jacques Uijen told The Observer. 'As long as they remain in complete inertia, no project will succeed.' He said they had reached Chissano and several other Cabinet ministers. 'Now we have to convince the whole population.'

So it directly connects the award of the honorary degree to the assertion that TM-Sidhi was responsible for the end of the drought and the civil war. The writer further connects the outcome of the TM-Sidhi experiment with the deal to turn over land to MAHEDCO. The TM spokesman makes clear the relevance of the cabinet's involvement, and he also mentions the goal of convincing the entire country. We can leave out the MUM scholarships if that's the sticking point.   Will Beback  talk  22:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks.(olive (talk) 22:34, 6 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

I'm sorry, I'm once again mystified. "Thanks" for what?   Will Beback  talk  22:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

....for dealing with my sticking point. In or out as you wish.(olive (talk) 23:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

You're welcome. Hopefully draft #3 will be acceptable to all.   Will Beback  talk  00:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

n 1992, President Joaquim Chissano of Mozambique learned Transcendental Meditation and yogic flying ^[1] along with 1500 military personal and civil service officials and their families.^[2] In October of that year the armed opposition, RENAMO, signed a peace treaty ending a 16-year civil war. Two months later what was described as the worst drought of the century across southeastern Africa ended.^[3] According to Maharishi literature, Chissano said that the meditation practice led to "political peace and balance in nature.^[1] In 1993, Chissano told the Maharishi at meeting in MERU, Holland that "Crime and accidents are down. We still have to do a thorough study, but we can feel the positive effects."^[2] However, a deputy defence minister said he did not believe the TM and yogic flying had ended the war.^[1] In 1993, Chissano received an honorary degree from one of the movement's universities.^[4][5] In addition, Chissano entered into an agreement to turn over control of 25% of the arable land in Mozambique to the Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company, but the agreement was nullified when it became public in 1994.^[5] Over 16,000 soldiers and 30,000 civilians were taught the TM and the TM-Sidhi techniques. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. In 2001, the Defense Minister said that the country had experienced triple the expected economic growth and crime levels had dropped".^[1] When the program ended in 2001, for what the local Maharishi center described as "administrative reasons", some individual units maintained the practice.^[1]

^{[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]}

Here is a revised draft, without the MUM scholarships awarded to the children of Chissano and his cabinet. Any further comments?   Will Beback  talk  00:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It can be added...its pretty long and may violate weight, but its OK for now, as far as I'm concerned.(olive (talk) 01:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

We have a box describing the Pseudoscientific Concepts of the TM Sidhi Program...yet we dont actually have any sources in the article describing it as a Pseudo Science. I think it is OR to have it in there. Robert Duval in his opinion piece TM or Not TM? A Comment on" International Peace Project in the Middle East" in the JCR, suggests that the research on the Maharishi effect is not Pseudoscientific. I think the Pseudoscientific Concepts box should be removed...since it appears it was put in with out any sources in the article to support it. If at sometime in the future sources are found that are conclusive enough then it can be put back in.--Uncreated (talk) 23:23, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could you quote the text in Duval to which you're referring? I don't have ready access to that paper.   Will Beback  talk  07:52, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have a copy protected PDF of the article...The Author rambles a bit and is not very concise in his opinions. However if I was to pick a sentence it would be..."It is seen as sufficiently internally consistent by the JCR editorial review process to say that it conforms to acceptable standards of scientific research. And yet almost certainly it remains outside the conventional beliefs of the majority of the journals readers". Page 816-817--Uncreated (talk) 04:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That text seems to say that this is pseudoscience. "it remains outside the conventional beliefs". That's what pseudoscience is: concepts that have no conventional explanation that are presented in scientific terms. A well-crafted study that purports to prove the existence of ESP or ghosts is pseudoscience.   Will Beback  talk  06:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

. According to the Oxford Dictionary(its best to use authoritative sources I think) the definition of Pseudoscience is: "a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method." The JCR is saying the method is scientifically sound but it is the readers who mistake it to be "Pseudoscience".--Uncreated (talk) 07:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where does the JCR say that it would be a mistake to call it "pseudoscience"? That certainly isn't what the quoted text says. I'd interpret it to say the opposite. There is no 'conventional belief" or identifiable scientific principle which allows people using a purely mental process to defy gravity or alter the emotions of people thousands of miles away.

• Jón Steingrímsson, a local Lutheran pastor, grew famous because of his eldmessa ("Sermon of Fire"), which he delivered as his congregation took refuge in the town church. His sermon was credited with stopping the advance of the lava flow. Móðuharðindin

It may be possible to see exactly where the lava stopped, and the complete story may even say at what point in the sermon it stopped. We could write a study about the phenomenon. But if we then said that sermons are an effective way of stopping lava and proposed various principles for the effect, then that would become pseudoscience. There's no conventional scientific explanation for how a sermon given indoors could have any effect on flowing lava outside, even though it's indisputable that a sermon was delivered and that the lava stopped.

It's certainly possible for MUM scientists to create rigorous studies that show these phenomenon exist and to measure them, but even they don't offer any conventional explanation for the mechanism. Some scientists have have gotten positive results in careful studies of ESP but those haven't been reproduced by independent scientists. Reproducibility is a hallmark of real science.   Will Beback  talk  08:29, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Are there not about 40 published studies on the ME? (Reproducibility?) --BweeB (talk) 09:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How many of those "40 published studies on the ME" were done by scholars with no connection to MUM?   Will Beback  talk  11:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many were published in reputable journals such as the "Journal of Conflict Resolution (JCR)". --BweeB (talk) 12:43, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But none of the results have been reproduced by non-MUM scientists.   Will Beback  talk  21:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that it's pseudoscience needs to be sourced. Even if a source were found, it would still be problematic, because the infobox doesn't adhere to NPOV. If research uses the scientific method and is published in multiple journals that are independently peer reviewed, it's not pseudoscience. It's science. The infobox highlights only one point of view -- a violation of NPOV. TimidGuy (talk) 20:01, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The scientific method includes publishing results that can be reproduced by other scientists. To date, no independent scientist has published any studies confirming the ME nor has anyone witnessed actual levitation.   Will Beback  talk  21:00, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As for NPOV, do we have any sources which say that ME is not pseudoscience? If so we should include those.   Will Beback  talk  21:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any sources that say it is Pseudoscience? The only time we mention it in the article is in the BOX...no where else...none of the critics of the maharishi effect we have sited and summarized have used the word "pseudoscience" to describe the ME.--Uncreated (talk) 03:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

According to Hunt (1995), the JCR published Orme-Johnson's Israel study "with editorial comments praising the methodology and rejecting the theory".   Will Beback  talk  23:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I started this thread because we don't use the term pseudoscience anywhere except in the box. In the lead we summarize the status of the Maharishi effect as "These assertions are generally considered unproven by the scientific and skeptic community, although empirical studies have been published in peer-reviewed academic journals." I am happy with this and appears to be a reflection of the situation. I am just unsure why we have the Pseudoscientific concepts Box.--Uncreated (talk) 03:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are many sources which refer to various aspects of the Maharishi's teachings as pseudoscience.[3]   Will Beback  talk  04:39, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you serious Will? This is about the "Maharishi effect", not Maharishi teachings. Once again I will say it...no critic that we have summarized in this article describes the maharishi effect as Pseduoscience...even if half of them did it would not be appropriate to have a box factually stating that the Maharishi Effect is pseudoscience since it is not a universally shared belief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncreated (talk • contribs) 21:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FTN#Pseudoscience infobox on Maharishi Effect.   Will Beback  talk  23:17, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Will.--Uncreated (talk) 00:00, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The two responses there say that boxes like this are not "useful or appropriate". If there's no objections I'll remove it.   Will Beback  talk  22:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome.--Uncreated (talk) 02:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hearing no objections and in consideration of the feedback at the noticeboard, I'll delete it.   Will Beback  talk  00:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with deleting the box. However if we have sources that critique TM-Sidhi/Yogic Flying as pseudoscience [4] then that critique should be summarized in the article text. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. That particular search focuses on Yogic Flying, but that's almost impossible to separate from the Maharishi Effect. The matter is currently under-represented in the article.   Will Beback  talk  03:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a broader link.[5]   Will Beback  talk  03:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yogic flying isn't a science psuedo or other wise. Its a meditation technique. The Maharishi effect is a name to describe an effect this Meditation technique may have. The meditation technique has been the subject of research studies , and there may indeed be scientists who consider the research pseudo science. Adding content that clearly delineates the 'science ' from opinion, the meditation technique from the research would be a great improvement in the article. Good suggestion.(olive (talk) 04:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

If one is claiming they can fly with the will of their mind yes that is pseudoscience cause it sort of contraveins much / all of physics.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:24, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Carl Sagan specifically names TM as a pseudoscience in Demon Haunted World. Why is this (and other equally compelling critiques) not represented in the article? - LuckyLouie (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article isn't about TM. Sagan is a referenced in the Transcendental Meditation article. Check the lead. There is a rather hefty section on the "reception" to the Sidhi program in this article which contains questions as to the legitimacy of the science of the program. There is also a separate article on TM technique research. Will Beback was rather keen to have a separate article so with agreement a separate article was created just for TM research. Again the TM research is a different body of research than the Sidhi research. There are multiple TM related articles in varying states of incompleteness. Some are being added to as more content appears others need corrections and updates following split offs of content. This isn't necessarily a fast process. As well, the TM article which originally contained extensive content on the TM technique was split off as a separate article and became a summary article while the TM technique article became a more extensive article on the technique. (olive (talk) 14:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

The TM movement has attempted to disassociate from its Hindu roots and ally itself with science in the Western world, and in doing so it has made its promotion of Hinduism somewhat covert and more convincing to an American audience. In what follows, we will examine the progression of language, from religious to scientific and pseudoscientific, used in the movement’s literature as it relates to a Hindu nationalist goal (called “Hindutva”) of establishing Hindu superiority over the West.

[6]Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:10, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) "YOGIC FLIGHT Yogic flight is an ability claimed by those who study the philosophy of transcendental meditation (TM) and its offshoot TM Sidhi." from Regal, Brian (2009). Pseudoscience : a critical encyclopedia. Santa Barbara, Calif.: Greenwood Press. ISBN 9780313355073. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"We teach our students that by concentration through meditation they can create an impenetrable field of energy between the ground and their bodies.The greater the field of energy, the higher the meditating man can rise. It is simple QED."

This sentence was recently added to the article. Surely if we are interested in giving the Maharishi's thoughts on Yogic Flying we could find more reliable sources for describing them than a book that is interested in debunking his techniques...I think if we are interested in giving the Maharish's views a source like "the complete book of Yogic Flying" written by the president of Maharishi University of Management would be a better source to site which extensively describes the maharishi's thoughts on Yogic Flying.--Uncreated (talk) 22:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's best, when picking quotations, to use those that have been selected by independent secondary sources. If the Complete Book offers a different, or better, explanation then we can add that too. Unfortunately, it's an expensive resource and only held by three or four libraries in the world.[7] That doesn't mean it can't be used, but since it's functionally a self-published source we need to use it with care.   Will Beback  talk  22:54, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We should cite Mason directly -- if we cite him. She didn't even get his name right. TimidGuy (talk) 10:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's a typical editing mistake. Next time I go to the library I'll look up Mason and confirm the quote. Or maybe someone here already has a copy.   Will Beback  talk  10:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree that it's typical of the skeptic books to make errors. And I agree with User:Uncreated that Pearson's book would be a good source. TimidGuy (talk) 10:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cheap shot. All publications can have editing mistakes. As for the material itself, is there any problem with it intrinsically? I mean does it contradict other explanations?   Will Beback  talk  11:25, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we won't know until we verify that it's accurate. I don't have the book at hand at the moment. Maybe someone does. What struck me as odd was his use of the word concentration, and also the Latin QED. But I just realized that he's likely referring to quantum electrodynamics. If so, then it's oddly out of context, and would need contextualization. TimidGuy (talk) 14:46, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The quote is correct. However, the quote was to scientists and most likely is saying that concentration in the field of meditation rather than in science is the field where, right now in these times, one will understand levitation. The contextual quote reads:

'You see my friends,' said the guru, 'science is only beginning to catch up with the knowledge that we Indian mystics have had through the ages.Once you have words for what we know and teach, then you will accept the truth of what we say.'

• The source for Mason's quote: Mehta, Gita. Karma Cola, Cape, 1980. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littleolive oil (talk • contribs)

I've now changed the material to cite the Mehta book, leaving the other citation as evidence of its notability.   Will Beback  talk  22:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doc the concern was that text could be added to the article if sourced...This wasn't in reference to the info box. Please check the discussion and especially when you come sweeping in and make edits over top of discussion and a NB; you should have some knowledge of what has gone on. Further the first source you cite here is not reliable for text, its a student journal. I'm concerned about the obvious disregard you have for other editors here and on the NB and your lack of accuracy in describing the situation here and commenting on editors in efforts that could to poison the well. I will revert you per the agreement on this page.(olive (talk) 21:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

The source I used in the article was not however. A source was requested and now a source was provided. Please stick to the topic at hand rather than make personal comments. We all have concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:12, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the discussion and save us both a lot of wasted time. The sources was not requested, as you put it, for the info box. Please read the discussion... (olive (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Requests for broader and hopefully independent comments has been requested. Lets give it some time. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

independent? There are two independent comments. The article will be placed in NB/consensus compliant position. If there is a change I'm sure the info box can be reinstated. In the meantime your behaviour on this is not only disruptive but inexplicable especially for an admin. (olive (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

The concern was a lack of references. It has been referenced. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My concern is not lack of references, but relevance and POV. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Please note: Given your mistaken understanding I suggest you revert yourself. While the info box means very little to me, the behaviour of an admin who behaves as you just have is of paramount concern. (olive (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

"Hearing no objections and in consideration of the feedback at the noticeboard, I'll delete it. Will Beback talk 00:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)"

"I agree with deleting the box. However if we have sources that critique TM-Sidhi/Yogic Flying as pseudoscience [4] then that critique should be summarized in the article text. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)}}"

I don't think the info box adds to the article. It is misleading in what the article is about, and the focus of the practice. Are people flying? it seems not, but why highlight that people have tried to in an info box? In my opinion, the info box violates a neutral view point on the article. If anyone can justify WHY it is necessary on these medtiation articles, please, sell it to me. right now I'm not seeing it. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of this article is the TM-Sidhi program. Therefore, I have removed extensive material from the lead which is specifically about TM, not the TM-Sidhi program. --BweeB (talk) 11:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And in this context, I feel the sentence "Skeptics have called TM or its associated theories and technologies a "pseudoscience"." needs modification to comply with the article subject matter. Perhaps "Skeptics have called TM-Sidhi theory and technology a pseudoscience." --BweeB (talk) 11:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that sentence is OK since TM-Sidhi is on e of the assorted theories and technologies. I was wondering about the other content added since it references research on the TM technique...a very different body of research than the ME research, so its in the wrong article.(olive (talk) 14:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

That's why I took it out. Am not attached to the current sentence, just though it could be improved. --BweeB (talk) 17:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• A longitudinal study of practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs found changes in hormones associated with stress.^[1] Also, studies have found the practice may be associated with increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability.^[2][3]

I checked one of the listed sources, Sibinga & Kemper, and found that it does not mention TM-Sidhi. The quote from the Horan article doesn't mention TM-Sidhi. What does Seeman et al., say about TM-Sidhi? More basically, why do we have a two-sentence section on TM research in an article on TM-Sdihi?   Will Beback  talk  21:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If material in the article is not about TM-Sidhi program, then it should be removed, IMHO. --BweeB (talk) 08:08, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sibinga's review includes a study by Jedrczak on the TM-Sidhi program. Horan talks about the TM-Sidhi program quite a lot. I'll add more info on sanyama to the article so that the relationship is clear, using Horan as a source. Seeman's review includes a longitudinal study by Werner on subjects who practiced the TM and TM-Sidhi program. TimidGuy (talk) 17:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In short, Horan uses "sanyama" to refer to the practice of the TM-Sidhi program. For example, in this sentence: "At this time, sanyama training (TM- Sidhi program) was unavailable." TimidGuy (talk) 17:29, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sibinga also cites Cranson's longitudinal study, which is on practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi program.[8] TimidGuy (talk) 17:34, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Better quote from Horan: "Meditation training increases auditory sensitivity. Very unusual auditory brain stem responses (less than 10ms from stimulus) were evoked via binaural 5–70 dB stimuli by TM-Sidhi program sanyama practitioners using special mantras to sensitize the auditory system toward internal sounds (McEvoy, Frumkin, & Harkins, 1980)." TimidGuy (talk) 17:38, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What does Sibinga say about TM-Sidhi? Just because he cites a study on TM-Sidhi doesn't mean he's writing about it. Many academic papers include tangential or background information, which could be what Sibinga was citing. Please make sure that we're only summarizing the parts of the papers which are referring to TM-Sidhi specifically.   Will Beback  talk  21:01, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Horan is apparently Roy Horan, former martial arts actor and now assistant professor of the Multimedia Innovation Centre, School of Design, Hong Kong Polytechnic.[9] (He's not listed on the MIC faculty page currently,[10] but he does have a page on on the University's main site.[11]) He is described as a "long-term practitioner and teacher of meditation".[12] I can't find any information on his academic credentials or on any other papers he's published.   Will Beback  talk  23:04, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Google Scholar reports that the Horan paper has only been cited once,[13] and that was in a non-academic magazine.[14][15] In the paper, Horan says that he "has practiced sanyama for over 37 years". If we're saying that TM-Sidhi = Sanyama then we might need to edit more than just this section to reflect that view.   Will Beback  talk  23:33, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now these citations have been added:

• Epel, Elissa; Daubenmier, Jennifer; Tedlie Moskowitz, Judith; Folkman, Susan; Blackburn, Elizabeth (2009). "Can Meditation Slow Rate of Cellular Aging? Cognitive Stress, Mindfulness, and Telomeres". Longevity, Regeneration, and Optimal Health: Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 1172: 34–53. doi:10.1111/j.1749-6632.2009.04414.x. PMC 3057175. PMID 19735238.
• Loizzo, Joseph (2009). "Optimizing Learning and Quality of LIfe throughout the Lifespan: A Global Framework for Research and Application". Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 1172: 186–189.

What do Epel, et al, and Loizzo say about TM-Sidhi, specifically?   Will Beback  talk  12:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that no more research material is added until we resolve the issues with these recent additions.   Will Beback  talk  06:47, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One can always hope! --BweeB (talk) 11:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. However if TG doens't reply soon I'll start removing the citations he added which don't explicitly refer to TM-Sidhi.   Will Beback  talk  20:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, the next appropriate move would be to leave TG a message on his talk page rather than unilaterally delete RS content. (olive (talk) 20:42, 6 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Reliable sources that don't mention the topic are not reliable sources for this topic. Bigweeboy has endorsed the removal of such materials, so it wouldn't be unilateral. TimidGuy has edited here since some of the previous requests have been posted. But sure, I'll post a request to his talk page too, in case he hasn't been checking this page.   Will Beback  talk  21:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. The same holds true for all articles. As more expert than most on this topic, TG deserves a chance to explain his edits. If he has made a mistake I'm sure he'll endorse the removal of the content. I'll be happy to leave TG a note to save you the trouble. And you're right I see BWB did endorse removing content that does not refer explicitly to the topic of the article(olive (talk) 21:48, 6 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

What's the basis for saying that TG is expert on this topic?   Will Beback  talk  22:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You've said explicitly you weren't an expert in science/reserach. While I can read papers if I have to and have worked in a biology lab, I don't consider myself an expert, and don't want to be, and no one else seems to have the consistent over all knowledge of this area TG has, but that's just a personal reading of what I see, on a talk page nothing more. If you want to be the expert be my guest. I'll stick to paintings.(olive (talk) 23:47, 6 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Having survived the Essjay scandal, I think it's best that editors not proclaim themselves, or others, experts on a topic unless there are credentials that can be verified. But anyone is free to say that they're a fan of a topic.   Will Beback  talk  00:15, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The wording did not say TG was an expert . Expert was used as an adjective to describe a relationship to others. He may well be an expert but that's not what I was saying.(olive (talk) 01:21, 7 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

OK, since we're still on the expertise issue, so what makes TG more of an expert on this topic than most?   Will Beback  talk  02:24, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sibinga talks extensively about TM research and its various effects, and ays this: "Some studies also suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability. (30)(31)(32)(33)". The first two citations are to studies conducted on practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs:

30. Cranson RW, Orme-Johnson DW, GackenbachJ, Dillbeck MC. Transcendental meditation and improved performance on intelligence-related measures: a longitudinal study. Personal Indiv Diff. 1991;12:1105 This two-year longitudinal study investigated the effect of participation in a special university curriculum, whose principal innovative feature is twice-daily practice of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi program, on performance on Cattell's Culture Fair Intelligence Test (CFIT) and Hick's reaction time. These measures are known to be correlated with general intelligence. One hundred college men and women were the subjects—45 from Maharishi International University (MIU) and 55 from the University of Northern Iowa (UNI). The experimental group (MIU) improved significantly on the CFIT (t=2.79, P<0.005); choice reaction time (t=9.10, P<0.0001); SD of choice reaction time (t=11.39, P<0.0001), and simple reaction time (t=2.11, P<0.025) over two years compared to the control group, which showed no improvement. Possible confounds of subject's age, education level, level of interest in meditation, father's education level, and father's annual income were controlled for using analysis of covariance and stepwise regression. The results replicate the findings of previous longitudinal studies on intelligence test scores at MIU, and indicate that participation in the MIU curriculum results in improvements in measures related to general intelligence.

31. Jedrczak A, Beresford M, Clements G. The TM-Sidhi program, pure consciousness, creativity and intelligence. J Creat Behav. 1985;19:270

Loizzo says this:

Consistent with current health psychology and behavioral neuroscience,4,33 natural contemplative practices aim at overriding the fight-flight response style that characterizes behavioral stress-reactivity, and at cultivating a disarming, love-growth response style that supports nurturance and creativity.40,49 Examples are practices such as optimal in- tegral process (Skt. anuttarayogatantra), kindling(Skt.candal ̄iTib.gtum-mo),TMSiddhi (stage 4–5), Ananda Marga, Sahaja yoga, Kun- dalini yoga (Patan ̃jali stages 7–8) and Qi-gong.... Research findings include fast beta or gamma frequencies in the EEG,21,76,97 increases in endorphins,98 dopamine,79 arginine vasopressin,99 melatonin,81 and DHEA,100 decreased cytokines,101 a paradoxical pattern of high CNS arousal and deep muscular relax- ation similar to REM sleep and sexual response,26,70,102,103 a “heart-brain prep” pattern of centrally shunted blood flow and slowed metabolism72,104–107 resembling that of hiber- nating, estivating, and diving mammals.108–111

He cites Glaser's study on DHEA:

100. Glaser, J.L. et al. 1992. Elevated serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels in practitioners of the transcendental-meditation-(TM)-and-TM- Sidhi programs. J. Behav. Med. 15: 327–341.

Serum dehydroepiandosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) levels were measured in 270 men and 153 women who were experienced practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi programs, mental techniques practiced twice daily, sitting quietly with the eyes closed. These were compared according to sex and 5-year age grouping to 799 male and 453 female nonmeditators. The mean DHEA-S levels in the TM group were higher in all 11 of the age groups measured in women and in 6 of 7 5-year age groups over 40 in men. There were no systematic differences in younger men. Simple regression using TM-group data revealed that this effect was independent of diet, body mass index, and exercise. The mean TM-group levels measured in all women and in the older men were generally comparable to those of nonmeditator groups 5 to 10 years younger. These findings suggest that some characteristics of TM practitioners are modifying the age-related deterioration in DHEA-S secretion by the adrenal cortex.

Seeman cites Werner: "The final longitudinal study, by Werner et al. (1986), reported three-year longitudinal data for 11 male practitioners of TM showing reductions in plasma thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), growth hor- mone (GH), and prolactin but no change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels."

Werner, O. R., Wallace, R. K., Charles, B., Janssen, G., Stryker, T., & Chalmers, R. A. (1986). Long-term endocrinologic changes in subjects practicing the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program. Psy- chosomatic Medicine, 48, 59–66.

The Transcendental Meditation (TM) and a more advanced program, the TM-Sidhi program, have been reported to produce a number of acute and long-term metabolic and electrophysiologic changes. To investigate the possibility that the practice of these techniques may be associated with long-term endocrinologic changes, we prospectively evaluated 11 male subjects before and over a 3-year period after starting the TM-Sidhi program. A progressive decrease in serum TSH, growth hormone, and prolactin levels occurred over the 3 years while no consistent change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels was observed. These results suggest that the long-term practice of the TM and TM-Sidhi program may have effects on neuroendocrine function. Further studies using 24-hr monitoring with frequent blood sampling will, however, be needed to fully assess the significance of the simultaneous decline of the anterior pituitary hormones with maintenance of levels of hormones from peripheral endocrine glands.

Epel also references Glaser: "Several meditation studies have measured markers of positive health, such as anabolic hormones, and these may have relevance for cellular aging. As discussed above and reviewed elsewhere, several stress-reduction interventions have induced increased heart rate variability and increased anabolic hormones such as DHEA.136 Several uncontrolled studies of TM show healthier profiles of arousal, including greater levels of DHEA-S.120,137"

137. Glaser, J.L., J. Brind, J.H. Vogelman, et al. 1992. Elevated serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate lev- els in practitioners of the transcendental meditation (TM) and TM-Sidhi programs. J. Behav. Med. 15: 327–341.

Hope that helps. There are additional research reviews that include these studies. TimidGuy (talk) 10:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. However I'm having trouble figuring out what's what - I'll copy it over and format it to help my comprehension.   Will Beback  talk  19:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Sibinga: "Some studies also suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability."
• Loizzo: "Consistent with current health psychology and behavioral neuroscience,4,33 natural contemplative practices aim at overriding the fight-flight response style that characterizes behavioral stress-reactivity, and at cultivating a disarming, love-growth response style that supports nurturance and creativity.40,49 Examples are practices such as optimal in- tegral process (Skt. anuttarayogatantra), kindling(Skt.candal ̄iTib.gtum-mo),TMSiddhi (stage 4–5), Ananda Marga, Sahaja yoga, Kun- dalini yoga (Patan ̃jali stages 7–8) and Qi-gong.... Research findings include fast beta or gamma frequencies in the EEG,21,76,97 increases in endorphins,98 dopamine,79 arginine vasopressin,99 melatonin,81 and DHEA,100 decreased cytokines,101 a paradoxical pattern of high CNS arousal and deep muscular relax- ation similar to REM sleep and sexual response,26,70,102,103 a “heart-brain prep” pattern of centrally shunted blood flow and slowed metabolism72,104–107 resembling that of hiber- nating, estivating, and diving mammals.108–111
• Seeman: "The final longitudinal study, by Werner et al. (1986), reported three-year longitudinal data for 11 male practitioners of TM showing reductions in plasma thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), growth hor- mone (GH), and prolactin but no change in cortisol, T4, or T3 levels."
• Epel: "Several meditation studies have measured markers of positive health, such as anabolic hormones, and these may have relevance for cellular aging. As discussed above and reviewed elsewhere, several stress-reduction interventions have induced increased heart rate variability and increased anabolic hormones such as DHEA.136 Several uncontrolled studies of TM show healthier profiles of arousal, including greater levels of DHEA-S.120,137"

This is a restatement of TimidGuy's posting above, with just the text from the sources. I don't see any mention of TM-Sidhi in Sibinga, Seeman, or Epel. Loizza seems to be saying that something called "TM Siddhi (stage 4–5)" has been studied in regard to replacing the "fight-flight response" with "love-growth response", though it's just one of several "natural contemplative practices" studies on the same topic. Is that a correct summary? If so I propose removing the other three citations which don't mention TM-Sidhi and replacing them with a summary of Loizza's comments on TM-Sidhi (stage 4-5).   Will Beback  talk  01:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you need me to explain the convention of footnotes. In every case, these passages are citing studies on the TM-Sidhi program. That fact is clear either by looking at the title of the study in the citation, or by looking at the abstract of the study. If you like, I can add the titles of the studies to the WP refs. That would help make it clear. And in the instance of Cranson, where "TM-Sidhi" doesn't appear in the title, I could also quote the abstract in the ref. Seems like it would be a good idea to do this. TimidGuy (talk) 10:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification, Timid. --BweeB (talk) 11:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Studies of practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs have found positive changes in hormones associated with stress.[29][30][31] Also, studies have found the practice may be associated with increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability.[32][33]

Let's start with Sibinga ([32]). He cites two studies that involve TM-Sidhi performed by TM movement researchers. Also, we're quoting him so we should use quotation marks. This line would be better written as something like "A review by Sibinga and Kemper in Pediatrics in Review notes two studies by TM movement scholars, saying they "suggest increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability" might be associated with the practice.   Will Beback  talk  08:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could you make the text sound any more vague, Will? --BweeB (talk) 08:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to make it a little more precise. Why would we want it to be more vague?   Will Beback  talk  08:57, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason why James insists on adding TM technique content to the wrong article? If not, I'll remove the content. (olive (talk) 23:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

This was balance to the content added by TimidGuy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Timid Guy added content about research which includes the TM Sidhi research. You are citing specifically the TM technique research. Why are you deliberately adding wrong content to this article? (olive (talk) 00:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

?What TimidGuy added. Definitely not the opinion of mainstream science. I have returned mainstream sciences opinion to the page.

Studies of practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs have found positive changes in hormones associated with stress.^[1][2][3] Also, studies have found the practice may be associated with increased creativity, intelligence, and learning ability.^[4][5]

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:19, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Studies of practitioners of the TM and TM-Sidhi programs ..." That certainly seems to include studies on TM practitioners.   Will Beback  talk  02:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is the lead of the TM Sidhi article, and citing the number of studies for the TM technique misguides the reader, but if that's what you both want, no worries, for now.(olive (talk) 03:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

I added it to balance the edit by TimidGuy here [16]. If there is to be discussion of the conclusions or numbers of studies we need to have the conclusions accepted by the scientific community.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]