I removed:

Burke's Book Store - Found at 1719 Poplar and Evergreen, this dog friendly, cozy store is staffed by a small, yet knowledgeable group of people. If you can’t find what you are looking for, someone would be happy to order it for you or redirect you to a better source. But, it is hard to leave empty handed with the store’s quirky selection of comics to civil war biographies.

The Wall of Graffiti at the Wild Things/Inz and Outz - 553 South Cooper St. The two stores are a gay/lesbian/straight friendly store and a neo-hippie paraphernalia store respectively. But, it is the wall along the parking lot that always provides plenty of aesthetic stimulation. One of the few places in Memphis to find vibrant graffiti, it never stagnates. Fresh images are added often.

Because it does not adhere to a NPOV. I don't think a listing of interesting places to visit in Memphis is a bad thing, but this is not the way to do it. It should be explained why these places are listed (i.e. biggest book store in Memphis, oldest whatever in the area, etc). This reads like advertising and shouldn't be here. Tuf-Kat 06:44, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

True, perhaps it should be put under Tourism. It does seem like advertising, yet huge cities such as New York advertise sites that run the gamut from stores to museums to parks. Just 'cause it has the same status as F.A.O. Shwartz doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned if it is relevant to the city. I must mention that I just discovered this site yesterday, so am still learning protocol. - Unifex

No problem, as it's not a big mistake. The issue is simply that this is one person's opinion and could be totally idiosyncratic. For example, I may believe that Burke's

• Employs large numbers of people
• The aforementioned people are not knowledgeable
• And are rude and unhelpful as well
• It's easy to leave the store without buying anything
• Because they have a limited selection

Neither your opinion nor my hypothetical one are verifiable. It can't even be proven that you really feel this way (you could be working for these companies). In any case, opinions like this need to be attributed to the people who believe them, and who must themselves be notable in some way (i.e. probably not you and definitely not I). Perhaps the Memphis Chamber of Commerce or tourism board maintains a list of interesting sites to visit, for example, or maybe a couple places are mentioned in most travel guides, or appeared on Insomniac with Dave Attell or something. These would be valid inclusions, but your (or my) opinions on the subject are not noteworthy or encyclopedic. Tuf-Kat 07:00, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

why is there nothing mentioned about this massive park and the dont split shelby farms movement. I think we need some sort of statement about that park and/or a whole new article on the park. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barcode (talk • contribs)

• I agree, there certainly needs to be something on Wikipedia about Shelby Farms. Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I think it must be extremely rare for a large city to have a such a massive greenspace within its borders. I would be fine with either an article devoted exclusively to Shelby Farms, an explanation of what it is in this article, or both. - Jersyko talk 23:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shortly after the Civil War there was a major race riot in Memphis. I will research it a bit and try to update the article.

There was also a large riot where KKK members marched on MLK's birthday (or assaination?). Also on a somewhat related note is the mention of Forester (KKK founder) and problems with giving respect to a brilliant Civil War general but who created the fraternity which would turn into one of the largest hate groups in American history. But I dont know how worthy that is to mention.

What is this about the mayor being the most corrupt in America? Doesn't sound like a statement rooted in fact, more like an opinion...Should that be taken out?

The nickname section of city infoboxes is usually reserved for the more recognized nicknames of that city, so I removed a handful of the more obscure or less common ones. Many, many cities are referred to by their residents by the city's first initial or the first part of it's name followed by -town (Take 'nap-town' for Annapolis, MD for an amusing example,) and frequently by their area codes as well. There's no need to add every single nickname used for a given city - I think two is enough. New York City only has its primary nick, "The Big Apple" listed, even though it has several others. -- Vary | Talk 23:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to Jersyko for removing the unfree maps and resizing some of the bigger images. Chris2008 , I'd appreciate if you'd please discuss the disputed changes here with us so we can come to a consensus about what's the best format to use. I'm leaving the nicknames in for the time being to avoid an edit war, but it seems to me they really do not belong in the infobox. The infobox is a kind of quick reference for facts on the city, and an alternate name that a non-resident is unlikely to ever encounter is not useful there. Please do reply and let us know why you think the larger images and inclusion of the added nicks are important. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 05:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• In order to build consensus, I would like to second all of Vary's comments regarding nicknames and images. - Jersyko talk 21:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, most of the nicknames in question do not really belong in the infobox as nicknames. Some city articles have referred to the airport code, the area code, and a few other abbreviations as colloquialisms, usually referred to in the introductory paragraph (see Albuquerque, New Mexico or Richmond, Virginia as examples). But I think it's best to keep the nicknames list in the infobox pretty simple. Dr. Cash 23:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Memphis nickname is not star of the southwest or whatever else is on there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris2008 (talk • contribs)

• You're right. I apologize for reverting your change in its entirety, I will try to pay more attention next time. However, I have removed some of the nicknames you have added, per the comments in the above section of this talk page. - Jersyko talk 04:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add pictures of the hernando desoto bridge and a skyline picute. When you first go to the page it should be a picture of the skyline of memphis, tennessee like every other major city has a picture of there skyline. There shouldn't be a picture of Beale St. when you first go to the page. It should go under Other Points of Interest. user:chris2008

• While the pictures of the bridge is admittedly nice, it and all other pictures taken from this website are not distributed under a free license. In fact, the website says "Downloads by others than the media or tour operators, if not permitted in writing by Tennessee Tourism, are illegal." Tennessee Tourism, despite the deceptive title of the page, is a private company, not a state department of Tennessee. Thus, use of the pictures, and any others from this website, on Wikipedia is copyright infringement (of course we still have a fair use claim . . . but better not to use that if we can avoid it). I do agree, however, that the Memphis skyline would be a better picture for the infobox, provided that a free license picture can be found. - Jersyko talk 23:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I did not get the picture of the new bridge during the day from that website so we still should beable to see that one. user:chris2008

This article generally needs a LOT of cleanup work. While I think it is appropriate to mention David Saks in this article, this should not be done in the introductory paragraph (along with the massive list of musicians), but later in the article. That being the case, there *certainly* doesn't need to be a low-quality (as in, blurry, poorly white balanced, low resolution) picture in the intro. I will not remove the picture for now, as doing so would be in violation of the three revert rule, but I think it might be a good idea to do so . . . - Jersyko talk 03:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• I've done a little research on David Saks. This is his homepage. There is at least some corroboration that he wrote one of the "official songs of Memphis" (of which there appear to be several). There is not, however, much evidence of Mr. Saks' involvement in the Memphis community to such an extent that he warrants a mention in the intro to the article. I will not go further in my suggestions in this regard, but merely present the evidence for the perusal of others. - Jersyko talk 04:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined to think we don't need a pic of Saks in this article at all. He's only mentioned breifly, and there aren't pictures of any of the other artists mentioned in the article. A picture of him would belong in his own article.

I agree on the intro; it's way too long, and most of the info on local artists can probably go under 'culture' or under a seperate heading (say, 'Local Artists'?) All we really need is the first paragraph, as is, and maybe a second one referencing the city's musical heritage?

Also, while the new picture in the citybox is an inprovement over the Beale Street one, I think the one that was in there up until mid-January or so is better. I'm not sure why it was moved, (it's now under 'Geography and Climate') but swaping it with the one that's in the citybox now might be a good idea. The code specifically requests a skyline, and the current image doesn't quite fit that description. Some of the other images in the article could use some adjusting, too. -- Vary | Talk 06:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the subject of cleanup, I think the next thing that should be tackled is the list of sections and suburbs. Should that maybe be broght in line with the style used in the state boxes, as at the bottom of the article? Putting the list on a few lines, rather than giving each item its own line, would go a long way towards making the article look neater. It can also probably go nearer to the bottom, I would think. -- 06:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure about my placement of the list of entertainers from the intro, but I know it didn't belong where it was. I hope someone else can think of a better place to put it. -- Vary | Talk 06:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the picture because: 1) he is mentioned only briefly in the article, 2) he is not noteworthy enough (most people do not think of him when you mention "memphis"), and 3) considering all the important people in Memphis' history, such as Elvis and Martin Luther King, Jr., and considering their pictures are not in the article, then it is difficult to justify Saks' picture. If there is a Saks article, then that is where the picture would belong. - Dozenist talk 13:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. If we're going to have a picture of an artist, it should be someone along the lines of Elvis, Arethra Franklin, Jonny Cash, or B.B. King. -- Vary | Talk 17:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• There is no mention of David Saks on the Commercial Appeal's website. A google search of "David Saks" and the word "Memphis" reveals: (1) his homepage, (2) links to realtor websites, and (3) links to web portals. Again, I'm only presenting this information for other editors to consider. I will not take any action in regard to Saks in this article or the article about Mr. Saks that was recently written ( this is why). - Jersyko talk 17:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any reference to 'In Memphis' being an official song of the city, just 'One Last Bridge'. I'm going to go ahead and remove the other song pending confirmation of its status. If this was an 'Official Resolution' you'd think there would be some record of it somewhere. Mr. Saks's own web page doesn't even mention either song, at least as far as I can tell. If we don't get better confirmation of the status of "One Last Bridge" then the myspace account of a nn band, I'd say we should take that one out, too. -- Vary | Talk 17:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I did find the reference on his web site, claiming both songs as Official Songs, but I had to use google to find it - the site is a mess. "In Memphis" is too common a phrase for a google test to yield accurate results, but a search for 'Saks "One Last Bridge"' gets two hits, the aforementioned page on Saks's web site, and this article. Not a good sign for notability. -- Vary | Talk 18:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As there has still been no evidence presented that "In Memphis" was ever even recorded, I've re-removed that song, and added the name of the artist who performed "One Last Bridge." If anyone can verify that "In Memphis" is in fact a co-official song of Memphis, please do put it back in. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 02:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There most certainly is evidence of David Saks and his song "One Last Bridge" in The Commercial Appeal. You appear to be too hasty in removing Mr. Saks's name from the song "One Last Brisge". What a pity! Please see the following as proof: [1]

No one has attempted to 'remove Mr. Saks's name from the song.' I've removed the text of the article you cited and replaced it with a web link, (which I'd like to add was not easy to find even when I knew where to look!) as the text is copyrighted and can't be reproduced here. It looks better on the web site, anyway. In future, please provide links rather than pasting content into wikipedia. Thanks.

I have to note that the article refers to One Last Bridge not simply as Memphis's official song, but as its "official song of 1990." As such, I'm not sure it even belongs in the article. What about the official songs of 1991-2006? , For the time being, though, I'm just going to update the article to include this new information. -- Vary | Talk 07:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I vote to remove the Song of 1990 stuff... or make another article that states Offical songs of memphis. --Barcode 16:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you vote to remove "the song of 1990 stuff" then surely you'll vote to remove the information regarding New orleans and the Voodoo Music experience from annual events in Memphis as this was a one time event. No one knows if it will be annual as is stated in the article. So as you can see, this is not completely accurate being listed under Annual Events..... - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs)

You're quite right, at least in regard to the "annual" status of Voodoo in Memphis. Fixed, in that regard. I disagree, however, that it doesn't warrant a mention in this article, as the location of the event for 2005 received a decent amount of media coverage, quite a bit here in Memphis, and was attended by thousands of people. The New Orleans Saints, for example, are mentioned in the New York Giants article for a similar reason. - Jersyko talk 20:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

yes. but somewhere it needs to be noted that the Voodoo whatever music thing happened in memphis this year. perhaps in another article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barcode (talk • contribs)

You're correct. The Voodoo music thing should be mentioned in a New Orleans article and not Memphis since it surely belongs to and in New Orleans. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.70.152.126 (talk • contribs)

"...it surely belongs to and in new orleans"? That sounds like a statement arguing an opinion. And all of us here, I am sure, value highly the issue of NPOV. Though the Voodoo fest was originally in New Orleans, the historic event of having it take place (partly) in Memphis with thousands of people attending is a good reason to have it mentioned in this article. At least for now. Perhaps I can be persuaded years from now when having a Voodoo fest in Memphis is a "blip" on the radar. Perhaps. Then again, we digress. The entire list of official songs of Memphis for every year is not something that should be listed in this article. A separate article could be created for such an endeavor, considering how easy it has been to track down this information. - Dozenist talk 00:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by my previous comment. The Voodoo Fest belongs in an article on New Orleans. The only reason that it was an "historic event" in Memphis was due sadly to Katrina and so many of the New Orleans musicians had been displaced by Katrina to Memphis. While it was inspiring that it attracted many people, Voodoo Fest only attracted thousands of people in Memphis because of the dire situation in New Orleans. The sooner that New Orleans can return to normal and claim all of Vooddoo Fest, the better. Memphis does not need to claim it too. Thoughts of Voodoo and Memphis? I think not! Official songs of Memphis written and composed by local musicians should be on the Memphis page. The information was not so difficult to track if you looked properly in "The Commerical Appeal". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs)

I disagree. Someone researching Memphis today would be interested to learn how the city supported the people of New Orleans by hosting an even that is an important tradition for the city's residents when Katrina made holding the event in New Orleans impossible. Fifteen years from now the information might no longer be relevant, but that's the beauty of a wiki - old, outdated information can easily be removed by anyone.

I agree with Dozenist that, if a more complete list of the annually selected Official Songs of Memphis can be compiled, a separate article might be appropriate. Does anyone know what the current year's official song is, or if the honor is even still awarded annually? -- Vary | Talk 03:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't appear to be any other mention of an "official song" of Memphis in the Commercial Appeal's archives, nor in the Memphis Flyer's (the city's only other somewhat widely read daily besides the Memphis Business Journal). In looking at the city council's actions for 2004 and 2005, I don't see anything about other adopted official songs. I suppose the only way to compile a list would be to trek to city hall and ask to look at the relevant records. - Jersyko talk 03:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone considered that Mr. Saks's song is the only Official Song of Memphis? "One Last Bridge" was proclaimed the Official Song in 1990 and deserves to be mentioned on the Memphis site. It is as relevant as Tallest Buildings. It doesn't make much sense that the Memphis City Council would proclaim an official song every year.

Regarding someone researching Memphis and learning that the city supported New Orleans with a Voodoo Fest, I don't think it would be of much interest as Voodoo Fest is too new to be considered a "tradition" even by the New Orleans natives. If Memphis were to host Jazz Fest or Mardi Gras, true New Orleans traditions, this would be noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts. You can do so with ~~~~. Regarding whether there is only one official song, well, the article in the commercial appeal makes it clear that it is only the official song of 1990. Thus, it stands to reason that there's at least a good chance that there are others, for other years. Additionally, the editor who originally added the information on Mr. Saks to the article also mentioned another song, titled "In Memphis," as an "official song of Memphis" (though this was not able to be confirmed through online research). There seems to be a decent amount of evidence that there is more than one song, but we certainly can't conclude one way or the other without looking at what the city council has done. - Jersyko talk 04:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ahhh! Now we are getting somewhere. Mr. Saks had two songs proclaimed songs of the year by the Memphis City Council in 1990. How many other Memphis composers can claim this honor? Not many! He is the composer of "In Memphis" as well as "One Last Bridge". This is even more of a reason that he deserve to be on the Memphis page...--70.248.228.85 13:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I pointed out, however, this claim as to the second song was completely unverified, except on his homepage. It seems that you're arguing two different things at the same time: (1) "One Last Bridge" is the only official song of Memphis, and (2) there are multiple songs, two of which have been written by Mr. Saks, thus they should be mentioned in this article. These arguments are, of course, mutually exclusive. The safest course to take at this point is to not draw any premature conclusions 'as to the number of songs but to do further research with the city council to figure out exactly what the city's official songs are. If my schedule permits it, I will swing by city hall in the next couple weeks or so and see what I can find. - Jersyko talk 14:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a great idea. Because so far, there is very little reason to have him mentioned on the Memphis page as it is. I have been asking everyone I know that have lived here for a long time, none of which know this guy. If instead he is only really known in smaller circles in the Memphis music scene, then that is not enough of a reason to have his name in the article about Memphis. Tell me if I can help with going to the City Council, Jersyko. - Dozenist talk 16:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Memphis is a large city and asking everyone "you know" may not be the right people to ask. Mr. Saks was born in Memphis and has lived there all of his life. Checking with the Mempis City Council is a terrific idea. Once you verify that Mr. Saks is the recipient of two awards from the Memphis City Council for two songs of the year, then his name should remain on this site. He represents the city more than a mention of Voodoo Fest. Why not mention a Stones concert, they attracted thousands to Memphis as well.--70.248.228.85 16:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're mentioning him on the page because Memphis has "Official Songs of the Year" and he is the composer of these songs. In this case, it makes no difference who is familiar with Mr. Saks. This information is as interesting as any of the other categories that are listed under Memphis.--70.248.228.85 17:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Voodoo Music Experience is unquestionably notable and belongs in the Memphis article. The search string '"voodoo music experience" Memphis' yields 23,000 results. [2] The search string '"david saks" memphis' yields 358. [3] While an in-depth discussion of the event and its history would not belong on this page, the brief mention we have there now is appropriate.

He has had two songs - one verifiable and one unverifiable - that were made official songs of the year in Memphis. There has so far only been one source cited that would be considered authoritative under Wikipedia:Citing sources is from a small local paper, Commercial Appeal, and it is not an announcement of the award, but discusses the author and producer's disappointment that the song was not used in an advertising campaign for the city. [4] I will wait to see the outcome of the AFD for the Saks page, to see if he is determined to be notable under WP:MUSIC, but if not, I would say that the reference should come out of the article. Again, if someone is able and willing to do the research to find out the rest of the songs that have been awarded this honor, and if it is an award that was given for a reasonable number of years, it might be appropriate to create a separate article listing these songs. This would be an ideal project for a Memphis resident with knowledge of the local music scene.

Again, it's not a good sign for notability when you can find only one reputable reference from a relatively minor publication. If Mr. Saks and his work are as well known in Memphis as the user who's advocating for keeping his article feels, it should be easy to provide links to more articles in commercial appeal and other local publications citing his notability as a musician and composer. (I repeat, links, please, as I'm not going to go digging out the link on my own again, and any copyrighted material that is pasted onto this or any other page will have to be removed per WP:Copyrights.) If any of this is unclear, please see the notability requirements linked to above. -- Vary | Talk 20:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How many "hits" have the other categories, Tallest Buildings for example received? I'm sure they've not received the 23,0000 that you cite for "Voodoo Memphis nor the 348 that Mr. Saks has received. "Commercial Appeal", small, local newpaper? It is the oldest and only major newspaper in Memphis. It does not matter that Mr. Saks's work is not well known in Memphis. What is notable is that his two songs "One Last Bridge" and "In Memphis" were cited by the Memphis City Council as Official Songs of Memphis. Most people are not familiar with the composers of songs. Official Songs of Memphis and Mr. Saks listed as the composer is as relevant and notable in the Memphis article as some of the other categories. I stand by my --207.70.152.126 22:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)earlier statement that "Voodoo Experience" ranks up there with a Stones concert and is not pertinent to Memphis. The Stones site receives more than 23,000 hits and though they performed to thousands of people their concert is not listed on the Memphis site. Mr. Saks is a Memphian, the majority of the performers at the "Voodoo Fest" are from other cities.[reply]

Thankfully, we have more than just one person working on this article to try to get this straightened out. As it stands, we are now agreeing on things that would make Saks not notable for the Memphis article. For example, 1) "Most people are not familiar with the composers of songs", 2) "Mr. Saks's work is not well known in Memphis", and 3) There is not much sign of widespread acclaim of Mr. Saks as evident by the google search. The most important aspect of Mr. Saks is that he is the composer of one song that was the official song of Memphis in 1990 (The only thing verified so far, if I am up to date with the discussion). That being the case, it is still only noteworthy if it is the only song (or one of a very few) that is Memphis' official song. If there are many songs, then "One Last Bridge" is not as noteworthy. Thankfully, we have access to city hall, and we will be able to gather that information soon. Concerning everything else mentioned here, not only do most people in Memphis recognize the names of Voodoo Fest and Clark Tower, the majority of them would also say those things are important to Memphis--- more important than one of many Stones concerts occuring in any number of cities. Any argument otherwise stands against the majority of views here. - Dozenist talk 14:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The majority of viewers here did not know where to find Mr. Saks's name mentioned in the Commercial Appeal. It had to be shown to them. Many Memphians recognize the name "Mr. Bingle", which is also important to many Memphians, but I don't see him mentioned. Like a Stones concert, "Voodoo Fest" is also being held in "any number of cities", New Orleans. It does still count as a city, doesn't it? I stand by my previous comments--70.248.228.85 16:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another article has been located in the archives of The Commercial Appeal, dated November 26, 1992, by Peggy McKenzie. This article is titled "Passion is Stamped In Collector's Hobby". In addition ti stamp collecting, the article states that Mr. Saks is the recipient from the Memphis City Council for two of his songs, one in 1990 and one in 1991. After further research, the two songs in question, "One Last Bridge" was named the Official Song on May 22, 1990 and the other song, "In Memphis" received this prestigious award on May 24, 1991. After checking with Pamela Crislip, Assistant City Administrator, for the Memphis City Council, no other songs have received this award in the fourteen years that she has been working for the City of Memphis.--70.248.228.85 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)--70.248.228.85 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's useful information, thanks for providing it. Did you happen to ask about pre-1990 songs? - Jersyko talk 00:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd appreciate a link to the article, please. For info on adding links to Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:How to edit a page. Thanks -- Vary | Talk 00:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. Ms. Crislip stated that she has been working for the City of Memphis since 1992, and was not aware that the City Council had named official songs in the fourteen years that she has held in this position. I'm awaiting a response for pre-1990. I'll try to send you the link for the above article. --70.248.228.85 01:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC) [http://www.commercialappeal.com/--70.248.228.85 02:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]