Ukraine B‑class Mid‑importance

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"Lemberg Ghetto" 500/"Lviv Ghetto" 1,000/"Lwow Ghetto" 4,000. I suggest renaming this article to "Lwów Ghetto" (which was the city's name before WWII). Comments? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

agree.--Jacurek (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lemberg was also a name for the city before the war and was also the name of the city when the Ghetto was established i.e during the German occupation. If you put down "Lwów Ghetto" it will look like it was a Polish ghetto or organized by the Poles whereas it was really organized by the Germans. Let us look at similar instances - Auschwitz is in Poland yet the term for the concentration camp uses the German name rather than the Polish on - and that has been specifically done in order to distance the Poles from the whole concept of these attrocities. Bandurist (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please, don't make changes without looking in cited sources. For instance, the last edit [1] changed "Some 5000 Jews died as a result of this pogrom, perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists and police." to "Some 5000 Jews died as a result of this pogrom, allegedly perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists and police." The attempt to whitewash the Ukrainians is understandable, however, the source (Richard Breitman) states the following:

"Another large 'reprisal' came on 1 July in the city of Lemberg (Lvov), where the chief and staff of what was soon to be called Einsatzgruppe C had just arrived. The population of this main city in eastern Galicia was a mixture of Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, and ethnic Germans. Commander Dr Otto Rasch informed his men that Jews and some other inhabitants of Lemberg had killed a number of people in the city before the Russian troops retreated. Although this 'crime' did not affect the German forces, that mattered little. The Ukrainians had already created a local militia under a military commandant, which the Germans decided to use. Together with the militia, Einsatzkommandos 4a and 6 and a police unit brought in from Cracow rounded up some 3,000 suspects, mostly Jews, in the municipal stadium. The next day Rasch informed the men that he had received an order from Hitler that all those guilty or even suspected of involvement were to be executed. Rasch personally supervised the executions on 2 and 3 July. Moreover, another 5,000 Jews in the city died around the same time as a result of Ukrainian pogroms and police killings on the streets.³⁰"

The footnote 30 is:"Erwin Schulz Affidavit, 13 August 1947, NA RG 238. NO-3644, p. 3 of original, refers to 2,500 to 3,000 killed. EM no. 24, 16 July 1941, NA RG 242, T-175/R 233/ 2721538 cites an overall total of 7,000 shot by the police and 1,000 beaten and jailed by the Ukrainians during the period 30 June-3 July."

We can see that there is no allegedly here. It directly blames Ukrainians in pogroms.

In addition, the city's name during those time was "Lwow", or "Lvov".--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will put up the sources when I get some time. The name however wasn't Lvov or Lwow, at the time. During the occupation it was known as .... lemberg ... like the title of the article, although today it is known as Lviv.Bandurist (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the section from Nakonechnyj' book: Shoa u Lvovi regarding the so-called Petlura days..

Євген Наконечний писав: «Німці розставляли євреїв на тлі трупів і робили фотографії з підписами: «Ось вони євреї-злочинці, поруч зі своїми невинними жертвами».

(...) Так було організовано злісну гестапівську провокацію, що тривала три дні. Історики називають її «в'язничною акцією». Прямо на вулицях хапали людей із яскраво вираженою єврейською зовнішністю (особливо пейсатих хасидів), приводили до тюрем і наказували виносити трупи. Липень - гарячий літній місяць. Трупи хутко розкладалися, сопух був неймовірний. Євреї голими руками, без санітарних пов'язок на обличчях, без рукавиць зносили на подвір'я з камер і підвалів людські останки. До тюрем прибули родичі та близькі помордованих, щоб забрати своїх і належно, за звичаєм, поховати. Гестапівці підбурювали родичів загиблих фізично розправитися з Богу духа винними євреями, що були на території тюрем. Євреїв називали винуватцями розстрілів і закликали родичів помститися. Для цього заздалегідь приготували металеві палиці. Дехто з родичів помордованих мстилися за смерть своїх дітей. Можна уявити собі стан навіть найбільш стриманої особи, коли їй показують труп рідної людини і демонструють «вбивцю» (...)

(...) Другого або третього липня я йшов до знайомих, що мешкали нижче теперішнього кінотеатру ім. Б.Хмельницького. На вулиці стояла валка сільських возів з трунами. Селяни приїхали забирати своїх загиблих. Сморід від розкладених трупів із Замарстинівської тюрми був таким сильним, що трамвай, який їздив цим маршрутом, припинив свої рейси. (...) Найстрашніше вражало те, що немало жертв було по-садистському помордовано: виколоті очі, відрізані язики, руки, ноги, у жінок - груди. Коли, затуливши хустинкою носа, я підійшов ближче, то почув страшенний лемент. То кричали не родичі помордованих, як я спершу подумав, а євреї, яких били нещадно, до смерті. Били куди попало, хто впав, того копали ногами».

(Наконечний Є. «Шоа» у Львові. Спогади. Львів, 2004. С. 106-111)

Bandurist (talk) 22:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "I will put up the sources when I get some time." Before doing any changes you must prove the existing source to be wrong. It is not sufficient just to provide another source that gives a different interpretation of the events.

Re: Наконечний Є. «Шоа» у Львові. I have nothing against this quote, however, it is not clear for me what concrete statement does it support? That Ukrainians committed no pogroms?

Re: Lemberg-Lwow is like Auschwitz-Oświęcim. One way or the another, during WWII the city was known among the Allies as Lwow or Lvov.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For cities those names should be used that were in use during a corresponding historical period. If we speak about Roman Empire's time Vienna, we use Vindobona. When we talk about ancient Paris, we call it Lutetia, when we talk about WWII we use Stalingrad, not Tsatitsyn or Volgograd. Similarly, the Polish official name was Lwow, the Soviet official name was Lvov. Lviv is anachronism in this article.
I am not sure if we have to use Lwow, not Lvov. Lvov was an official Soviet city's name from late 1939 to the end of the USSR.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Paul Siebert, also user Bandurist, please do not use false edit summaries (edits made by the restricted user etc.)--Jacurek (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A comment on "please do not use false edit summaries". It was not a false summary, it was just a nonsense. What does "restricted user" mean? If some user is blocked he cannot edit. If someone can edit he is just a normal user with ordinary rights.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Same story as with Breslau/1945/Wrocław. When writing about historical period, we should use appropriate name, which would be official name of the city in that time or the way most of its inhabitants referred to it. In that both cases it would be Lwów. I do not think it should be referred as Lvov, since Russian occupation in 1939 and later annexation of Lwów into USSR was internationally not recognized (should we call Warsaw Warschau between 1939 and 1945?). Shifting Poland westwards, with incorporation of Lwów into USSR, was recognized by Polish "government" (Stalin-imposed PKWN) in late 1944 and internationally only in 1945. Calling pre-1945 Lwów - Lviv would be, as Paul Seibert wrote "anachronism" and could be misleading, that the city was Ukrainian before the war, which I presume is the hidden intention of those constant corrections, but historically baseless. Since Europe is uniting, not dividing anymore, I think it's enough time for our Ukrainian friends to accept the fact that nowadays Lviv before WWII was an overwhelmingly Polish city of Lwów, as we in Poland accept the fact that nowadays Wrocław in 1939 was an exclusively German city of Breslau (same story goes with street names etc.).--PawkaLukasz (talk) 06:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree.--Jacurek (talk) 07:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The city was Ledzanian 8th C, Morovian 9th C, Polans 960-980, Ruthenian 980-1349 (Ukrainian) and named Lev in 1256, occupied by the Polish 1349 and made part of Polish Kingdom in 1387-1704 (under which it could be said were numbers of years under Swedish rule); Austrian 1772-1914; Ukrainian 1918-1920; Polish 1920-1939; Russian 1939-1941; German 1941-1944; Russian 1944-1980 and Ukrainian 1980 finally part of Independant Ukraine in 1991

Ukrainian 420 Lev/Lviv, Polish/Swedish 350 Lwow, Austrian/German 150 Lemberg

The problems seem to be that the naming guidelines state "For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name", the city name is pronounced basically the same way in Polish and Ukrainian, and that (as Siebert says) the city was under Russian occupation from 1939-1941.

The real problem then who was in cahrge when the pogrom happened and, if it was the Germans, what did the Germans call it?

If Siebert is right the body should use the German spelling if it is going to be accurate and I doubt that anyone is going to agree to that one.

Chaosdruid (talk) 04:50, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]