Talk:Caravaggio: Difference between revisions

The proper title for this entry is Caravaggio with a dab at top about Caravaggio, Italy and a note about Caravaggio (movie) below. That's the NCP (normal cultural perspective). Wetman 23:02, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I almost didn't find the page because of the odd naming. This should be the default page for "Caravaggio", with the disamb linked from it. Mpolo 10:26, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. For now, I've moved the disambiguation page from Caravaggio to Caravaggio (disambiguation), and made Caravaggio in a redirect to Michelangelo Merisi. If noone complains about this, an administrator can move this page to Caravaggio later. Eugene van der Pijll 13:19, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I object. I think that Caravaggio should certainly be a redirect here (with a note on this page saying caravaggio is also a town and movie. But that the main article should stay here at Michelangelo Merisi, since that was after all his name. The bellman 08:26, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

I think it's more than a little pretentious, to be frank. --Wetman 00:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Engilsh Version v. French Version

I have just finished reading the French version of the article, which is currently featured on fr.wikipedia. It contains a veritable mother lode of information relative to the English version and IMHO does an altogether better job with Merisi. I suggest incoporating much of the French article into the English.

La traduction, c'est à vous la faire, hein? --Wetman 00:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unless anyone is willing to translate the long French list, may I suggest an image gallery (like the one in the article for Jacques-Louis David), based on this Wikimedia Commons page? Note that Caravaggio redirects to 'Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio' there. –Ham 18:54, 25 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have started translating and merging. will eventually get through it. also wikilinks need converting. please be patient. help welcome....PalX 22:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Bien, quand vous avez fini, vous pouvez faire le 'merging,' hien? PiCo 11:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Year of birth

The first line of this entry reads 1573, though if you look 3-4 lines down when M.M. is compared to Shakespeare, his year of birth is listed as 1571. Which is correct? Unless I missed it there is nothing in the entry about there being confusion about his y.o.b. Dismas 05:29, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

i agree. this needs to be resolved, at least for this article. Whateley23 06:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

and, to be fair, i've done some research: i find 1573, c.1572, 1571, 1573, 1571, 1571, 1573, and 1571, with the date ranging from September 28-29, on 8 websites. that's 4 for 1571, 3 for 1573, and 1 for c.1572. who wants to make the decision? Whateley23 06:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The question has to be settled by scholarship, not Googleship :). It was 1571, according to the most recent research - this is pretty universally accpeted now by scholars. PiCo 11:08, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual people and LGBT categories

These two categories are listed at the bottom of the article but the article makes no mention of M.M.'s sexual orientation. It seems to me that we should have some sort of text relating to this especially since he was a painter of such religious work. Afterall, religion and homosexuality/bisexuality don't historically get along together very much at all. I'd add any pertinent info myself but I'm not an art scholar by any means. Dismas 07:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I normally don't like writing about an artists' sex life as it seems essentially irrelevant to their work and the reason for their fame. But in Caravaggio's case his sexuality pervades his art. I've just done a big re-write of the article and made it clear that he was gay, without dwelling on the fact outside the relationship to his art. PiCo 11:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC) 11:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

I also nearly didn't recognize this page, because of its title. I find this choice peculiar. I would like to call a survey for discussion of this question; which I would do by approval voting between Michelangelo Merisi, Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio, and Caravaggio (with other nominations acceptable).

Comments? Septentrionalis 02:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hearing no objection, therefore: Approval voting until 18:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC), or consensus (one sentence comments here please):

Michelangelo Merisi

Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio

Acceptable, but do not prefer Septentrionalis 18:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Look at this title as a compromise. – AxSkov (T) 04:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Caravaggio

Normal English usage. Septentrionalis 18:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
preferred due to usage Whateley23 00:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't consider myself an idiot and I'd never heard anything but "Caravaggio" until I read the article. Dismas 00:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Most common name used in English. – AxSkov (T) 04:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Other (please specify)

Comments

Consensus seems to have been achieved; I've moved the page. Eugene van der Pijll 17:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Calling of St Matthew caption

I don't understand what this is supposed to mean: "In the chiaroscuro of a shaft of light, Jesus' intervention lifts a genre scene to sublime theater." what's a genre scene? the link to genre doesn't mention any genre scene. if the caption is correct i think it needs some more explaining. Xrchz 05:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The caption is correct. As the link explains, 'genre' is a vague term meaning generalised subjects that get treated frequently. Christ's calling of the various Apostles is one such genre from religious art. The caption is saying that what could have been a run of the mill treatment of a hackneyed subject, has instead been made exceptional by the inovative use of chiaroscuro. (At least, it was innovative at the time - inevitably it was overused by the Baroque artists who followed Caravaggio and became hackneyed anyway. But that lay in the future, and in any case Caravaggio's realism was not copied by later Baroque art). PiCo 10:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ with the comment that "genre" is a vague term; IMHO "genre" pictures are paintings representing scenes from everyday life (see for instance, "The Cardsharps"), as opposed to history paintings. "The Calling" is a history painting, term reserved for painting of scenes from the Bible or the mythology. The point is that history paintings tell a story, whereas a genre scene only shows everyday people going about their business. The nuance is important, because for 17th century painters and patrons, "history" paintings were considered a nobler art than "genre" paintings or landscape paintings. In other words C. never meant "The Calling" to be a genre painting. I propose then the following caption: "The chiaroscuro of a shaft of light, expresses in a blink of an eye the turning of St Matthew's destiny, with no artefact, flying angels, parting clouds or the like". Harol2 18:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

I've made a complete re-write in an attempt to improve the article. I hope that I've covered all the points made in the original - sometimes I've incorporated the older material.

As I've mentioned in the intro to the new entry, the web material on Caravaggio's life is highly unreliable, and this is based primarily on Peter Robb's biography, checked against a number of other books.

If I've trodden on any toes by making such a total re-write, I apologise.

PiCo 05:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Kudos to PiCo. I had made a number of earlier edits ("even in a violent time"), of which one or two sentences survive. But PiCo has done the radical rewrite that the article deserved, and his acknowledgment of Robb (is giving credit where credit is due. At the same time, it also includes sources besides Robb, and it is readable and well-written. Good job! GaryDave 11/10/05

Good Job. Caravaggio is cool.
May I suggest you add back the picture of 'The Taking of Christ'. I think it's his best and adds to the article considerably. Also could somebody add a pic of 'The Denial of Saint Peter'. I went to see it in NY recently. It's an amazing piece of work. Mesmerising stuff. count the fingers. PalX 09:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Thanks. As for returning the 'Taking of Christ' picture, unfortunately I don't know how. Feel free to add it - I suggest the second half of the article, which is a bit heavy on text and needs some illustrations. I'd also like to see either Virgin and Serpent put in if it's possible, and the St Ursula. PiCo 11:03, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

I just had a look at the French Wiki version. It has many excellent illustrations. I'd like to see them all used if possible. Can you do this for me? PiCo 11:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

ok guys. we have a majority I reckon. will add some pics. PalX 12:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

UHM! Yes, what you wrote is interesting and well written. But I seem many of the particulars I had added about the biography had went lost. Moreover, you should put the links to the single works articles (I'm adding them slowly, if nobody checked this. And... you can help - see next section!) in the text. Format for the not already present Wiki articles should be:

[[<Opera name> (Caravaggio)|<Opera name>]]

Good work on adding the images to this article - I particularly like the idea of putting Judith depaitating Holofernes into a section headed Death and Rebirth! (Except poor Holofernes never got reborn...).

I've added or revised some articles on individual works, including Amor Vincit, Boy with Basket, and Boy Peeling. Probably I'm still making mistakes with wikification, but learning slowly (I hope). A problem with titles is that there are so many alternatives - I've noticed that I've created an article called Boy Peeling Fruit, when the common title seems to be Boy Peeling a Fruit - if anyone can fix that I'd be grateful. PiCo 03:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Adding single works articles

If somebody wanna collaborate, I've got permission from www.wga.hu to use their photos and captions, so you need simply to upload the picture (if not existing) and copy-paste the caption (and improve it, if you have material) to obtain a good Wikipedia article about a single work. I'm also struggling with Botticelli, Raphael, Mantegna, Masaccio, etc.. If you can, give a glance. Art is something not so profoundly treated in Wikipedia. Thanks.

Could you sign your comments please? Yes, I'd love to collaborate - if you can provide the pictures, I can write articles, beginning probably with the images that already pasted into this article.PiCo 09:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work. I have been working a little with major Italians, but have tried to concentrate on "lesser Italians", the second stringers like Pontormo, Domenico Di Bartolo, Il Pordenone, etc. I have particular distaste for the vacuity of 1911 Brittanica statements. I feel like I'm being toured through a museum by a cheap guide, who name drops and shovels cute stories. In addition, while Vasari is a source, he was also a gossipmonger. I have few complaints about the article as it stands, while I agree that much in Caravaggio is unknown, undocumented, and if documented, often so by his enemies- I would have put the caveats at the end, and introduced with some lines why Caravaggio rocked the world. I wanted to lighten up on the homoerotic emphasis; clearly it is there, in the over-friendly ange in the Inspiration of Matthew I (the destroyed Berlin Canvas), as well as some others. I myself wonder what really he was thinking when he made such works as those in Cerasi and Contarelli. We will never know.

Finally for Caravaggio, I had basically abandoned the main article for fear of offending someone and concentrated on sub-articles on independent works such as the Contarelli and Cerasi canvases. Typically saying Calling of Saint Matthew (Caravaggio) and linking back to text of this main article.

Caravaggisti 06:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to move the caveats if you wish, and to do any other editing. Personally I'd like to see something added about Caravaggio's times - the influence of the Counter-Reformation and especially its strictures on art, and the lingering humanist tradition represented by Del Monte and other private collectors. If you want to lighten up on the hormoerticism go ahead - I think it has to be addressed, given that Amor has become a gay icon and Sacred&Profane a counter-gay one (I've seen it on an anti gay marriages website). But we in our age tend to give it far more emphasis than Caravaggio's contemporaries did (my opinion of course) - we just don't realise that in many ways the 17th century was an alien civilisation. I do want to emphasise the very real spiritual content of the religious works - I gave this a passing mention in this article, but I want to develop both aspects, the secular Caravaggio and the spiritual, in the linked articles on individual works.

Incidentally, what I've written here would of course raise the blood pressure of any true scholar of Caravaggio - Robb, my main source, is not exactly universally accepted in academic circles, and his certasinties are really hypotheses, some of them quite slenderly supported. PiCo 02:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Names of paintings

Given there are so many alternative names (in English at least) for Caravaggio's paintings, the best approach is probably to accept those used in the Chronology section. Anyway, I'm going to start going down that list adding individual articles. Unfortunately I already did one article called Boy Peeling Fruit, when the list gives Boy Peeling a Fruit - I'll try to fix it.

PiCo 02:45, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

On Caravaggio

I edited some comments on Bernini's Santa Teresa in Ecstasy which I think over-stressed the erotic content of the work. I could not envision a daily churgoing man like the Cavalieri attempting to introduce titillation by subterfuge. I agree that the mindset is difficult to comprehend. Few of us, in our ironic times, would have enough chuckle protection to steel ourselves to the mind-numbing graphic mental exercises of Santa Teresa or San Ignatius- but I assume these were daily meditation exercises for these devout artists. Unfortunately, for Caravaggio I sense that he lived a little bit less devoutly. Looking back at some of my contributions, I have failed to give them all the "(Caravaggio)" appendage. I tended to choose titles from Howard Hibbard's text.

I think Bernini's problem was that he had no more idea than you or I (ok, no more than I, I won't speak for you) of what religious ecstasy might look like. So he used the only ecstasy he knew, and... Caravaggio I see existing on a much more visceral, intuitive plane. Not that he wasn't intelligent - no-one who did those paintings was lacking in IQ points - but I don't think he even cared about the more abstruse teachings of the Church. He liked boys, and he painted them. He felt no guilt - guilt of that sort remained alien to the Italian soul well into the 1950s, and I've seen it lacking in some of my Catholic friends even now - but he did feel spirituality. And through his genius, he painted that too. PiCo 04:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology

Should the chronology section be put into its own article? It seems long enough for it Cfitzart 08:14, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the Chronology of Major Works, towards the end? Sure - the article is 37kb at present, and Wiki reccomends (recommends, recomends, reccommends) about 20kb. Make it a separate article and slap some thumbs on it :) Atillios and I (and others?) are going through adding good in-depth articvles on all the individual paintings. PiCo 08:35, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I started it off at Caravaggio, chronology of works, wasnt sure about the title but that can always be changed Cfitzart 09:50, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 70: / Line 70: @@
 The caption is correct. As the link explains, 'genre' is a vague term meaning generalised subjects that get treated frequently. Christ's calling of the various Apostles is one such genre from religious art. The caption is saying that what could have been a run of the mill treatment of a hackneyed subject, has instead been made exceptional by the inovative use of chiaroscuro. (At least, it was innovative at the time - inevitably it was overused by the Baroque artists who followed Caravaggio and became hackneyed anyway. But that lay in the future, and in any case Caravaggio's realism was not copied by later Baroque art).  [[User:PiCo|PiCo]] 10:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
+I beg to differ with the comment that "genre" is a vague term; IMHO "genre" pictures are paintings representing scenes from everyday life (see for instance, "The Cardsharps"), as opposed to history paintings.  "The Calling" is a history painting, term reserved for painting of scenes from the Bible or the mythology.  The point is that history paintings tell a story, whereas a genre scene only shows everyday people going about their business.  The nuance is important, because for 17th century painters and patrons, "history" paintings were considered a nobler art than "genre" paintings or landscape paintings.  In other words C. never meant "The Calling" to be a genre painting.  I propose then the following caption: "The chiaroscuro of a shaft of light, expresses in a blink of an eye the turning of St Matthew's destiny, with no artefact, flying angels, parting clouds or the like".  [[User:Harol2|Harol2]] 18:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 == Rewrite ==

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