I was surprised to see a move to delete the Ecco Pro article. Even though Ecco Pro's development was commercially halted in 1997, it continues to retain a loyal user base and remains an inspiration to those who want to create a better personal information manager. See, for example, Scott Rosenberg's blog entries on Ecco Pro: http://blogs.salon.com/0000014/2004/12/14.html#a796 -- which is one piece of evidence pointing to Ecco Pro's notability.

Hence I took Ecco Pro out of the queue for deletion. (My understanding is that this is the proper protocol to follow.) I hope others will not put it back in.

Raymond Yee Nov 14, 2008

I absolutely agree with Raymond - this article should not be deleted I consider it a balanced and accurate description of Ecco, which does indeed have a very loyal base of users many years after it was no longer supported Personal Info Managers are a hobby of mine and I see little fault at all with the article

Grushevskogo (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the same reasons, I don't think this article should be deleted. Msandland (talk) 15:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the PROD. It was wrongfully placed, presumably though good-faith error. Only articles that have "not previously been proposed for deletion" are eligible for PROD; see WP:PROD. This article was PRODded in November 2008, and is not eligible for another PROD. If the nominator still believes it should be deleted, please go through the WP:AFD procedure. TJRC (talk) 20:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could the experts at least try to address the issues of notability and excessive, inappropriate external links right in the main body of article? That one blog entry from salon is pretty much the only remote mention by a reliable source I can find. It's not enough to pass the usual guidelines for notability WP:N, because there's no significant coverage by independent sources.--74.56.234.186 (talk) 03:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like single purpose account vandalized with links to pay to join subscription site. have done my best to restore. All external links remaining should now be reference material sites. will add some notability links.YSWT (talk) 21:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, I have totally cleaned this article out. Pricing information like "SRP $69; sold direct by netManage for $19.95" (yes, strangely enough this is also read outside of the US!) is plain advertising, and texts like 'and is available free at the EccoPro Users' Group website', excessive linking to yahoo groups, inline linking of pages which should be internal links, pointing to more information etc. etc. etc. do not belong in an encyclopedia article. Please have a good read through our policies and guidelines. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 22:46, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop vandalizing this article. The SRP $69 ... is HISTORIC PRICING INFO. the program has not been sold since 1997 was released for FREE and is available for FREE on the official usergroup website. so (A) it is not advertising, it is important historic information about the software-- how much it cost when it was released in 1996, etc. Please read our policies and guidlines. but more important PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY EDITS. Vandalizing articles is not helpful. if you have any specific guideline in mind, please let's talk about it. YSWT (talk) 23:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

note: happy to discuss any issue, and maybe you can point out something missed. With equal import, maybe you also need to sit down with the guidelines again. "Exceptions (i.e. sites that can be both references and External Links) include an official site of the article's subject, or a domain specifically devoted to the article's subject which contains multiple subpages". The external sites listed are direct references eg., that a small fix can allow linking directly to file, and to devoted subject sites of multiple pages. The EXPRESS reference rule allows BOTH reference (in-line) and External Link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by YSWT (talk • contribs) 23:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to edit this article further, as I have a long-past relationship with Netmanage that still makes me feel a bit WP:COI about touching this, other than the purely procedural edits I've previously made. I will say:

• This article is a mess and I agree that User:Beetstra's edits are substantial improvements. not enough, but steps in the right direction.
• Edits are not vandalism, and unfounded accusations of vandalism as made by YSWT violate WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL.
• Pimping a free site is just outside the scope of Wikipedia as pimping a commercial site. TJRC (talk) 23:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC), out.[reply]

As TJRC says, pimping a free site is just as much spamming as is that for a commercial site. We are writing an encyclopedia here!

• The pricing information is unreferenced, America centered. And I do not believe it is thát important, every old product had a price. You will see it more often not mentioned in an article, than that it is there, and when it is there, it generally gets removed as well.
• The article is completely hung on the information on the yahoo group, it is not substantially referenced to independent sources.
• The mere existence of the program does not give it notability, why is this program notable, why does Wikipedia has to write about it?
• Inline links are NOT references in this way. They should link to an internal page, see WP:EL vs. WP:CITE.
• Sentences like 'see [htp://www.example.org the blog]' are also not references, they are simply tunneling people away. Moreover, they are not a proper source for this, have a read through WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CITE, WP:FOOT (hint: they are not independent!).

The only place where the yahoo group may have a place is in the external links, all others have to be converted to wikilinks, or to plain text.

No you are wrong. Please become familiar with the link policies of this wiki. The official user group is appropriate for IN LINE LINKING. YSWT (talk) 20:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And please, don't call this vandalism, and don't shout, that is indeed close to violating WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, I~it almost looks like that I am here the only independent editor looking at it. May I suggest you seek input from a Wikipedia:WikiProject? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* also note: Does not seem you are 'independent'. Seems you have an agenda. You didn't read article and 'speed' cut the price thinking it was a 'sales pitch' or an advertisement. You stated that explicitly. Ok, we all make mistakes, but- Instead of admitting that you made a mistake-- you've tried to 'prove' how right you are, and have made up other excuses to show that 'you were right'. It is beyond ridiculous for you to delete the historic product pricing on the ground it was listed in Dollars, and non-Americans read the wiki. Worse, instead of trying to improve the article and helping to find references for those statements that need citations, you 'speed' edited out the citations which were included to support the article's assertions.

Beetstra this article has been worked on by a LOT of people over a long time. If you want to help IMPROVE it, fantastic. but that is not what you're doing-->

1. Nothing intended personally or as insult but am not sure you have a full concept of what an encyclopedia is. Citing sources for the statements contained in the text is not "Pimping" other websites. If the text says JOE X is now an attorney in XXX city, reference to website to establish that fact is a REFERENCE, not a PIMP for that attorney. The price in 1997 is a reference, not a sales pitch. By removing ALL those REFERENCES you're not saving the wiki from 'pimping', your gutting the encyclopedia by removing the citations to the source of the statements contained.

2. "the pricing information is unreferenced, America centered. And I do not believe it is thát important". Should not delete unreferenced material, should mark it for reference. You want to delete historic pricing because is 'america centered'. Are you serious ?

3. Removing notability references and then complaining about notability is article vandalism. If you won't admit that is what happened then you're not being clear headed or unbiased. And, Yes, just because a product exists does not make it notable. But if it was the world's #1 selling PIM, and if it has been been the subject of print articles in newspapers, etc., then the subject is notable. Did you not see the print article references ? Do you think maybe an encyclopedia should only carry articles on 'current events' and what was the #1 software 15 years ago is 'history' and not notable today ?? Ie., you think 'history' has no place in an encyclopedia ?

4. Asking someone to politely stop vandalizing is 'uncivil' but removing 8 references to notability and then seeking article deletion for non-notabilty is 'civil'? With no discussion YOU decide that historic pricing is 'america centered' and therefore YOU decide it can't be in the article ? An article worked on by a multitude of editors for YEARS. ?? Again, are you serious ??

5. Essentially now all you did was to go through and delete references in the article. That's not vandalism ? For example.. the statement that some feature can be enabled with a FIX. WHAT IS YOUR REFERENCE FOR STATING THAT ?? Since YOU removed the reference there is none. In fact, you left the article without reference to all kinds of statements. That is not helpful. Am going to go through and try to fix the damage when have time.

6. You seem to be only a DESTRUCTIVE agent. looking to destroy. If there aren't reference for the pricing why don't you spend some time on the web and SEE IF YOU CAN FIND SOME. That would be helpful. But then again, that would take more effort than removing the references from an article and marking it as 'lacking references'. YSWT (talk) 20:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recently saw someone clipped a 'looks like advertisement' tag on the wiki. Eh? Sounds too cool & exiting to be 'objective'. But, the program *is* cool and exciting. Its FREE. So, unless there is some mis-statement, or misleading or something, does not seem like advert to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.118.54 (talk) 03:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A big issue (for this article and in general):

• Reference to SP2 breaking install, mentions alternate solution that I believe is only available at Compusol and after payment of a small fee. This represents a substantial barrier to entry by users who would like to do a test drive. We have a “vital” interest in keeping the product and unique features available to new users, because while Ecco may be showing its age, some people are leaving the ranks and new blood .would be good. While Ecco is doomed in the long-term, its unique abilities need to be on display for as long as possible so that we can hope for the development of a supported product with the same power

• Totally FREE SP2 and Vista EZ install solution is available at http:Forums.EccoMagic.com (*ABSOLUTELY NO MEMBERSHIP FEE*!!)

• FREE extension available at the 'new' Ecco_Pro forum even allows running exclusively from USB...

Additional Note from an Anonymous User:

I added a description of Ecco's columns-and-outline use that, I hope, is fairly clear without giving Wikipedia users a full user manual. But this page could use some good illustrative graphics.

Need:

• list of support sites (usually at the bottom of the page,

• a graphic of outline with columns with some data – possibly Will Ussery’s GTD template since that is a hot topic.

• A simple high level explanation of columns and the power they give

• a list of common problems and references or info on solution (reference compusol initially?, then maybe bring in here further down the road?)

• List of which Palm and Treo devices can be synchronized and limitations. Do some of their recent devices run the Microsoft flavour of PDA OS (and are therefore not compatible with Ecco?)

• stay compliant with Wikipedia formatting "standards".

• when we start to have subsections to deal with specific subtopics (some listed below) use format like what is used throughout Wikipedia. Would include automatic generation of table of contents etc.

• Open Source discussion

• Utilities in Yahoo library with some description (ideally by topic)

• Utilities such as EccoHelpers, Ivitar software such as VB toolkit etc,

• History of product. Introduced in, development stopped in ...

• Open Source discussion, respectful of Netmanage.

• Possible use of a portal down the road. (like a sub site I think)

Ted-Longstaffe 10:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

to me at least, i feel like i'm being given a sales pitch. what's this about a "list of ecco wannabes"? there's nothing encyclopedic about that. there are also a lot of excited statements that don't suggest a neutral point of view. ("through the extraordinary step of disassembling and modifying the binary executable", "available here FOR FREE"). is there any need for there to be an external link to the programmer's current law firm? i could go on... 64.0.112.44 (talk) 09:36, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. relax. FREE and LEGAL. (1) the original program is distributed FREELY. (2) the modifications/extensions are overlays. FREE is ... FREE and LEGIT.

2. the disassembling of the binary executable to do what it now does, is extraordinary. If you think that term is not accurate to the fact... please give example of something you find "extraordinary". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.118.54 (talk) 03:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the article reads rather too much like an advertisement and is unencyclopedic in several ways. I don't have time to fix it, nor interest in the topic, but am registering my thought here in order to begin to allow facilitate a discussion and consensus among those WP editors who do care to work on this. N2e (talk) 14:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with N2e. The page looks like an advertisement. It needs to be edited to remove all the POV language. lk (talk) 09:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read above comments, then looked closely at article text. Found & edited an instance of "even" (POV). Found other exciting words not POV -- they are objective and accurate. The FACTS of Ecco are exciting. The article is 'exciting' not because of POV language but because Ecco itself is vibrant. Interest in comment about what wording, specifically, is POV.

Please sign you entries. Being exciting and "vibrant" is inherently subjective thus POV. This article contravenes the manual of style in many ways, from the inappropriate tone to the tons of external links directly in the text. It would take a lot of work to bring it up to standards, but it seems no one who knows about Ecco Pro wants to do it. I'd clean it up myself, but know nothing about the subject, so my edits would mostly be cutting inappropriate material out, which would translate into a major trim.--Boffob (talk) 03:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since every non-quantitative adjective is inherently subjective, wonder what you do with other works of art or novels. Have looked carefully at your cited links. Could you more explicitly explain what *specific* external links section you feel is at issue. If you'd quote a few lines of the article text you feel is potentially inappropriate, and cite to specifically how & why (ie. by reference to specific section/subsection of MOS/EL policy, etc) am more than willing to take your lead & constructive suggestions and put in some effort to help 'bring it up to standards'. But important that those 'standards' are objective. 'Inappropriate tone' is subjective POV. As tone is the attitude that an author takes toward the subject, is this the core of your feelings-- eg., the authors were interested in and excited by the subject ? Certainly it's not your POV that 'appropriate' attitude should be of boredom and disinterest ? YSWT —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC).[reply]

WP:EL Important point #2: don't put external links in the text, put them in the External links section or as inline cite if it's meant as a footnote and the link is an appropriate reliable source. WP:ELNO point 10: discussion groups and forums are to be avoided. I haven't checked all the links on the page, but I wouldn't be surprised if many require registration (forums and discussion groups...), which is also to be avoided unless it's a cite from a reliable source (or it's the subject of the article's website). Wiki is not a how to guide to support Ecco Pro development and usage. There shouldn't be any "download program/updates/patches/whatever here" links anywhere in the text. Wikipedia is not a promotional site either, thus you shouldn't link to some former developper's law firm page (which has nothing to do with Ecco Pro, WP:ELNO point 13). The purpose of an encyclopedia is only describe what Ecco Pro is or was. There are still tone issues in the "Product functionality" section and onwards (whether the program appears complex or not is in the eye of the beholder, thus unnecessary POV, same goes for the "secret" to devoted following). So please, don't remove the tags if you don't address these specific issues. If you do not wish to fix them, I will eventually remove the inappropriate material.--Boffob (talk) 00:24, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Boffob, Have looked carefully at your input, and think part of issue may be your lack of familiarity with EccoPro as an historic issue, and importance of documenting both the OLD history and the more recent history. Orphanage by the original distribution company AND user based revitalization is all part of the story of the program. It might even provide important historic insight to future researchers on wikipedia. (1) maybe you also need to sit down with the guidelines again. "Exceptions (i.e. sites that can be both references and External Links) include an official site of the article's subject, or a domain specifically devoted to the article's subject which contains multiple subpages". The external sites listed are direct references eg., that a small fix can allow linking directly to file, and to devoted subject sites of multiple pages. The EXPRESS reference rule allows BOTH reference (in-line) and External Link. (2) You apparently have not understood the conceptual import, nor looked closely at the footnotes. See the footnote Note that under WP:External links#What_should_be_linked, a link to a social networking site MAY be included when it is the OFFICIAL website for a business, organization, or person. The Yahoo! forum is the OFFICIAL Ecco Pro user's organization, is FREE, and provides literally thousands of pages of additional information and reference material. If someone wants to learn MORE about, for example, the development of the 'extension' the place to look for MORE INFO is the official website, as linked. By removing a link like that you are cutting off the ability to do additional research on the topic. (3) All the sites are FREE (except historic site "Compusol". If is improper to have link to site that charges registration, tell me, and will remove that singular, non-free site. again, except "Compusol" (which based on your input, may violate rules since it is a pay-to-join/enter site; you tell me) the other sites offer massive FREE RESOURCE for research and learning more about the topic. (4) Links to pages containing more info about patches is 100% proper and important.. the patches are part of the history of the program's development, and links to support the claims about the patches and to provide reference to info about the patches is important. There should be no links to actual software downloads, etc., it should all be reference and research material links as far as I can tell. One link is to a file section which contains an ARCHIVE of research material available for free download-- ie, appropriate link. (5) why is 'link to some former developper's law firm page' any different than link to further bio info about one of the individuals referenced in article ? If someone is researching EccoPro, isn't a link to potential source of additional info helpful ? Just asking!; also, as for "(whether the program appears complex or not is in the eye of the beholder, thus unnecessary POV, same goes for the "secret" to devoted following)." you are saying that description of how something appears is not proper, as appearance is always subjective ? You would delete all articles on art and music, unless they were strictly mathematical records of the subject ?? You have apparently been helpful in past in removing 'spam' and solicitations from the wiki-- very helpful. Vandalizing information sites and removing links documenting modern history is not helpful. Hope you'll consider that. YSWT (talk) 15:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one removing the totally inappropriate external links, the pricing information, etc. etc. All those external links in the wikitext solliciting to go to a download page or external page for information are not appropriate. Please review our policies and guidelines. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 22:30, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beestra's correct. The links and other data that were included were inappropriate. TJRC (talk) 23:03, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]